quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Bottom line, and only my opinion of course, but ACCURATELY aging a LION, in the field, under field judging conditions, considering ALL lions are different, not only from region to region, but right in the VERY SAME areas, is IMPOSSIBLE.

My daddy always told me: "lets do all the hard-stuff today and get the impossible tomorrow."

Thus far in my life...I have not seen anything that is impossible.

Just about anything can be figured out and mastered if one tries hard enough and applies one's brain.

Good stuff!!!

John - That hurts man!!!

Ledvm - "In almost every instance where a species has been brought back to healthy populations, science is to thank. One must take a SCIENTIFIC approach".

Listed above is your quote, commenting on the quote from Bwanamich that the scientific approach that is unanimously accepted is an "age-based" regulation.

All that would be wonderful, if the scientific community could prove a factual way to look at EVERY lion on the "Paw", and give his exact age???? Fact is, and I gave a bunch of examples above, it CANNOT BE DONE. So the next best thing, and something that can be done is tighter quota restrictions, and self-regulating outfitters that care about their areas, the lions, and the longevity of lion hunting. Its easy enough to look at most lions and see that they are obviously mature or not mature. Past that, estimating age is just that, an estimation!! Example, the Kilombero area I hunted in TZ last year. NOW WAY that area should have 4 lion a year on quota, NO WAY!! Not only does it, but the outfitter try's his best to sell all 4 of them each year!!! If he won't impose self control, then impose a 2 lion per year quota, and that certainly helps the problem. The link I included of the lion I shot in this area last Sept, blows all the traditional ways of AGING a lion on the "Paw", right out the window. Poor mane development, etc, etc, but a huge old male, no doubt!

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

I wouldn't say it's impossible to age them within an age range but I would say it's one of the hardest things to do and certainly almost never easy.

Another tough one is sexing and judging size of Leopard in bad or no light and many people/clients think it's impossible until they see it how it's done, but like most things in life, experience and a few tricks of the trade help a great deal.......ageing Lions to an age range, (IMO) it's even more difficult...... but not impossible.

The easiest way to get it wrong is to let the client pressure you into a rash or hasty decision but being able to deal with that pressure also comes with experience.

Aaron,

Let's face it buddy..... John just might have a point!

Wait a second guys, an age range is one thing, an EXACT and ACCURATE age of each and every lion is a totally different story!!! You are arguing the same point as I to a degree, only in a different way. I have already said that an experienced PH and hunter can easily ID a mature, wild cat from a non-mature, wild cat.

Brett - Why do you think TZ is considering the 5yr old is ok, but the 6 yr old is optimum??? Because they KNOW there is not a definitive way to be TOTALLY accurate in the field!! Yes, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to accurately and EXACTLY age every wild lion in field hunting conditions! Reducing quotas will help, and MOST PH's are willing to self impose regulations regarding the lions they shoot, but you are right not ALL!!

Lastly, how do you impose an AGE limit when accurate aging of lions is still NOT accurate? Some might tell you it is, but it ain't!!

Aaron Neilson

quote:

CANNOT BE DONE

I learned my years ago to never make that statement. Every time I did...someone proved me wrong.

I agree with Aaron that ageing each and every Lion to an exact, accurate age is indeed impossible. Accidents and errors would happen if one tried to do that........ but an age range estimation should be achieveable given sufficient time to do it........ BUT age isn't the only factor if we want to get serious about this. There's also the other factors I mentioned earlier.

Yet another factor is that sometimes inappropriate Lions simply have to be shot and there's nothing anyone can do about that. It's happened to me 2 or 3 times when I've been forced to have clients shoot Lions that I KNOW was holding a pride or a relative youngster....... and I'm not ashamed of that because if I hadn't, the bloody things would have eaten someone and as I see it, a human life trumps a leonine one every time.

Unless of course it's the life of a canned Lion breeder!

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I gave a bunch of examples above,

All I saw obove was a set of very nice trophies that anyone would be jealous of. I would be very proud of them as well.

I saw no evidence as to anything that had to do with their age.

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I agree with Aaron that ageing each and every Lion to an exact, accurate age is indeed impossible.

When you add the words "each" & "every" I too agree that it would be very very difficult. But 80 - 90% accuracy would certainly be better than not doing it. And like everything else...practice makes perfect.

Fantastic lions, Aaron.

But I disagree that it's impossible to age and otherwise judge the "shootability" of lions in the field. It ain't easy, but it can be done.

Not to within six months or perhaps even a year or two in all instances.

But that's a degree of exactness sufficient for the purpose of insuring the lion's survival.

Any margin of error MUST be in favor of the lion.

There are many criteria that go into the evaluation. Body and head size and configuration, mane size and shape, nose color, scarring, leg spots, pride membership and dominance, locally distinct characteristics of the lion population, diet (e.g., buffalo fed vs. other), etc.

It won't do to focus on one or two criteria only.

We need to follow the best science we have on this subject, imperfect though it may be - or wild lions of the kind in your safari photos will be a thing of the past all too soon.

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Any margin of error MUST be in favor of the lion.

Truer words have never been printed. If you read some of the earlier posts...you do not get the feeling that every one is capable of imposing that restriction upon themselves.

Ledvm - Are you paying attention?? That was my exact point of the examples! There is NO way to look at a lion in the wild and give his exact age based on mane size, nose color, scars, etc, etc, etc.

Mrlexma - I never said it is impossible to judge the "shootability" of a lion, in fact that is exactly what I am saying one can do! You and I agree completely, if you read what I am saying. Using all the factors you indicate, one can make a reasonable assessment of a mature lion, and use those factors and experience to determine if the lion should be shot. on the other hand, I am against TZ putting a hard and fast law against age limits on legally harvested lions, an age limit that NO ONE can say is a fact with certainty, and one that will be a huge detriment to the hunting industry as a whole, both for clients and PH's.

Aaron Neilson

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Ledvm - Are you paying attention?? That was my exact point of the examples! There is NO way to look at a lion in the wild and give his exact age based on mane size, nose color, scars, etc, etc, etc.

Read ya loud and clear.

How do you determine shootability if you don't estimate age???

Ledvm - You do estimate age, but that's my whole point, it's just an estimation!! I estimated the LION at the beginning of this post to be 4-5 yrs old, Bwanamich said the same. Jdollar then offered some more info stating the lion was the pride male in his estimation. I would then say that the lion is likely 5 yrs old, but experience tells me the lion is no way a 3 yr old cat. Too stocky, too bulky, too mature looking of an animal. Just because his mane is not what one would hope or expect to see from "Botswana", doesn't mean he's not a mature, 5 yr old cat. Looking at the photo, I would feel comfortable shooting that lion and feeling confident he's mature. Now, if I had all the info that Jdollar has, then maybe not, but would I feel like the cat is immature just by looking at him, NO!!

My whole point is this. I am against TZ making a LAW that states any lion under a specific age will be determined an illegal kill. Especially when the way they use to determine age of wild lions in the first place is still completely suspect in the first place. Reduce quotas and insist that outfitters/PH's harvest ONLY obviously mature looking cats. If they do not, then the hunting industry should make their antics known, and hunters asked to avoid them.

Clearly, the biggest threat to lions is Aaron. Looks to me like he's killed them all!

why not just paint the cubs when they are born?

Green for 2010
Red for 2011
blue for 2012
etc...

That could be a sport all in itself! Getting into a pride with a paintball gun or brush (if you are a bow hunter).

Then in 2016 you can shoot all the green lions you can find

My whole point is that when we just give up and say it is impossible (Aaron's words) to age a lion accurately with in a year or so...we have lost the battle.

We need to do our best to keep perfecting our technique of "on-the-paw aging" and critcally evaluating our kills with every tool possible. X-ray the upper 2nd premolars just to see if if the pulp cavity is narrow on every lion killed.

This is why we have to work with the scientist to get this right. The aging, what range can be accurately aged on the paw, etc...

We don't have to be good at it ourselves, but the PH that we are paying a thousand dollars a day should be an expert on the lions in his area.

The more data points we get with the scientist the better this whole process gets over time.

Otherwise, you better get your lion now as they won't be on the menu in a couple of years.

ledvm - I never said anything about giving up either????? I stated, very clearly I might add. That it is going to be impossible to accurately field judge the exact ages of lions on the "PAW". So to implement an exact age "LAW", that will have huge consequences to hunters, PH's and lions, is in my opinion, un-realistic. Especially when according to Dr. White, tooth aging varies from country to country and region to region, within a specific country. So the very basis of the LAW will be in-accurate from the get-go.

So why create ALL of this un-necessary hassle, money spent on studies, ideas that multiple parties are never going to agree upon and do as Zambia did, LOWER THE QUOTA across the board??? Maybe us un-educated guys keep gettin in wrong, but we will get it wrong less often.

Now here's an interesting idea. Each concession holder gets to choose between a quota of 1-2 (depending on the concession) lions of any age per year or an unlimited quota of 6+ year old lions. That would be interesting.

Brett

one thing i know for sure. the lion whose picture i posted was the pride male. we saw him and his lionesses and cubs 3-4 times( always together)over the space of 5 days. made for interesting video and pictures, as they ignored us and went about the business of being lions.

A few more thoughts in no particular order:

- I agree that EXACT age estimation of a live wild lion is impossible without knowing the D.O.B. For all purposes here, we are looking at age estimations.
- Aaron, you are obviously passionate about the subject, it shows, so i would like to ask you this; Have you ever tried to have the first pre-molar of your hunted lions x-rayed? If not, I encourage you to do so and if you wish, post as part of a discussion?
- The age- bracket that is of any interest on this subject is quite simple really and that is "6 or over". Everyone agrees that it is quite simple for experienced professionals under field conditions to determine if a male lion is 5 or younger or if it is 7 or older. There is a great deal of ambiguity amongst professionals on estimating males that are between 5 and 6. I call these the "marginal" lions. More on these later.
- It is true that the studying of an x-ray of the root canal on the first pre-molar is also not 100% accurate in giving the EXACT age but one thing is certain, the canal gets narrower with age irrespective of which area/region/country the lion comes from. I feel confident in saying that this is not affected by diet in any significant way. So with this said, with enough data, it is very possible to age a lion with an acceptable degree of certainty as "under 6" or "over 6" years of age. At the end of the day, this is the critical age bracket that some have referred to - and which should be the model for an "aged-based" regulation.
- So, if we all agreed on an "aged-based regulation which would state that lions 6 and under are not to be hunted, it would have to, by default, include the "Marginal" lions. Someone mentioned we should always err on the side of lions? IMHO, this would be it. Pls note that i am talking in broad terms here as no one yet -that I am aware of - has thought this process down to the finest of details. I am ready to wage that such a regulation would have the same result as reducing quotas to say 1 or 2 per block with the important difference that the 2 lions taken would also be "huntable" lions age wise!
- The 6 year old age module first conceived, considered allowing the shooting of a pride male so long as that pride does not have any "dependant young", pregnant female or lactating female. What is a "dependant young"? A cub or a youngster that is under 18 - 24 months of age. This age threshold was achieved by considering that, on average, males become pride males by age 4 and that they can safeguard that pride tenure for an average of 2 years allowing a full set of off-spring to reach maturity! This approach was achieved from years of research into lion pride dynamics.
- I have said this before several times; The hunting of lions using the bait method has serious advantages in a regulated lion hunting scenario for obvious reasons.
- A system that allows the industry to self-regulate itself through voluntary restraint in not taking young or "marginal lions" is decades away - No one can convince me of the opposite today! Note I did not use the word "Impossible" or "never" to spare me the wrath of Ledvm Bottom line? We don't have decades to work with!
- The descriptive word "mature" has been used here and elsewhere to describe a lion that qualifies to be shot. One needs to be cautious I think, as a "mature" male lion is one that is starting to reproduce! And in most cases, that can be as early as 3.5 years of age and earlier. So for the sake of such a discussion, a "mature" lion should not represent one that can be hunted. A "huntable" lion might be the more appropriate word for this purpose??
- Steve (Shakari), i am NO EXPERT. Like many here, you included, I have read up on the subject and applied my practical and field experience to concur with "profesional" opinion or reach my own conclusion. There is a wealth of info out there and most of the top "lion men" (and women, sorry Paula ) are very approachable in discussing and sharing anecdotal information.

Bwanamich,

Good post buddy. I didn't mean to suggest you're a Lion expert just that you're almost certainly the most knowledgeable person here about Lions in general. Certainly I think you know considerably more about it than I do.

Regarding the real experts. As you say, they're all very approachable but I have to say, also all very busy. I've been trying to get a real expert like Craig Packer, Petrie Viljoen or Jeremy Anderson etc to write me an article about correct, ethical Lion management for over a year for the shakariconnection.com site, and whilst all tell me they'll be delighted to do it, they're always (understandably) too busy to get it done....... and I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough about the subject to do it myself. So I'm open to suggestions!

Regarding the minimum age requirement and penalties etc, I'd like to point out that it's nothing new. For as long back as I can remember Tanzania has had minimum standards for Leopard, Croc and Elephant and the maximum penalty for breach has always been a fine of the the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee, plus possible confiscation of trophy and removal of PH licence. We've lived with that for years so an age requirement isn't the disaster a lot of people seem to think.

There's also the requirement (dependent on which game act you read and/or is applied) to only take mature males of the species and this sometimes isn't as easy as first might appear.

One must also remember that the game acts whilst not being perfect are usually applied relatively sensibly. For example, whoever wrote the game act way back in 19black and white, forgot to put croc on the list of animals that may be taken within 200 metres of water. Therefore, pretty much every croc that's taken is taken illegally but I guarantee no hunter has ever been prosecuted for that technical breach of the regulations.

quote:

My whole point is this. I am against TZ making a LAW that states any lion under a specific age will be determined an illegal kill. Especially when the way they use to determine age of wild lions in the first place is still completely suspect in the first place. Reduce quotas and insist that outfitters/PH's harvest ONLY obviously mature looking cats. If they do not, then the hunting industry should make their antics known, and hunters asked to avoid them.

Just looked through this thread and the above quote sums it up for me....well said

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
A really great book that helps explain it is 'A Hunter's Guide To Ageing Lions' by Karyl Whitman and Craig Packer.

6th book down here: http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=3270

Dear Mark ,
If I recall Craigh Packer was at first a supporter of consumptive Lion utilisation on a sustainable basis - he has reversed his stand and was one of the main proponents of up listing lion to the non hunting CITIES 1 schedule. I stand to be corrected but John Jackson may shed some light on this.
Regards
Graeme

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- Aaron, you are obviously passionate about the subject, it shows, so i would like to ask you this; Have you ever tried to have the first pre-molar of your hunted lions x-rayed? If not, I encourage you to do so and if you wish, post as part of a discussion?

As I have stated before, I will do this for anyone free of charge. The images can be accessed via the net with a code. All you have to do is mail them to me.

It is the 1st upper cheek-tooth but actually it the 2nd premolar I belive.

Here in Botswana we invented the no shoot unless its 6 years or more - actualy just joking Botswana followed some other countries - however in Botswana not only did the male have to be 6 years and older - we were not allowed to hunt from a blind , no spotlights , no males with females - in fact one confused situation arose where it was thought only males alone meant no 2 males together, no baiting.
This although sounding impossible produced some of the best hunts ever !! - look at Aarons 2007 Botswana Lion - we took a similar male in NG 47 - when I posted the photo many hunters came back and were sceptical it was a wild Botswana Lion - Its on my facebook profile page.
OK Botswana has a lot of Lions and nearly all are big mane Lions with the Kalahari Black mane Lion being a superb specimen on average.
In 2000 when we operated out of KD 1 and KD 2 and Lions were put back on quota - we shot a pitch black mane Lion - the deepest black mane you could ever imagine , his teeth were nearly gone and his black mane was turning grey - most nights he crept into a government camp to steal food scrapes - a walking man eating acident waiting to happen. We estimated he was nine years old based on condition , mane , teeth - old yellow and worn down - no sharp edges or points. But it was a guestimate. The skull just made 23 inches - limped into the SCI record book - but I have yet to see a better mane.

Back to Botswana - once the Lion was dead we had to remove the tooth next to the canine - this was sent to laboratory to age the tooth, we measured the length , the circumference of the tail , the girth of the testicles - I kid you not , shoulder height , end point from nose to mane end on back , even some of the main organs were measured - at the end of this it was analysed to determine the age. In the field we were however required to age the fleeing Lion ( remember we were on foot in thick bush - they lie up during the heat of the day in the best shade - and have yet to meet a man with better eye sight /hearing /scent sensing abilities than a Lion). Botswana being the country that it is - realised this was not an exact science and did away with punishing any mistakes.

In the end as I think we all agree and understand - we need some sort of system to manage our Lions on a sustainable basis. We also know there are some rogue outfitters exploiting the resource for short term gain, so we cannot realy blame the government departments who are trying to find a way around the problem. Dialogue and patience is required all round - we need to build the confidence of the authorities that we are responsible hunters ( the overwhemling majority are) but the one bad apple often ruins it for us all.
Thats why its hats off to Aaron for starting this thread . Well done Aaron and although you dont like us to say it you are a modern day Lion hunting fundi and have a lot to offer us all with your experience , observation and analysis.

quote:

We also know there are some rogue outfitters exploiting the resource for short term gain, so we cannot realy blame the government departments who are trying to find a way around the problem.

The "Golden-Rule" applied!

Bwanamich - The good thing is, at the end of the day we are ALL trying to accomplish the same thing, which is the longevity of lions, and hopefully lion hunting. So with that said, I do appreciate everyone's comments and interest in the subject. I totally agree something needs to be done, and obviously finding one way to do it that suits everyone is also going to be impossible!

However, my concern is practical application of the "LAW", whatever it may be, under field conditions. Some of your points in the above post are correct, but application of the points in the field is a whole different story. Science is great in theory, but applying it in the real world is often a bit different. For example, below is a quote from your post. I will post my thoughts below that.

- The 6 year old age module first conceived, considered allowing the shooting of a pride male so long as that pride does not have any "dependant young", pregnant female or lactating female. What is a "dependant young"? A cub or a youngster that is under 18 - 24 months of age. This age threshold was achieved by considering that, on average, males become pride males by age 4 and that they can safeguard that pride tenure for an average of 2 years allowing a full set of off-spring to reach maturity! This approach was achieved from years of research into lion pride dynamics.
- I have said this before several times; The hunting of lions using the bait method has serious advantages in a regulated lion hunting scenario for obvious reasons.

The 6 yr old module considered allowing the shooting of a pride male so long as the pride does not have any "dependent young", pregnant female, or lactating female. YA, THAT WOULD GREAT IF THE PRIDE MALE CONSTANTLY TRAVELED WITH THE PRIDE, BUT YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT'S NOT THE CASE. OFTEN PRIDE MALES LEAVE THE PRIDE FOR SEVERAL DAYS AT A TIME, MARKING TERRITORY, ROAMING AROUND, OR MAYBE JUST WANTING TO GET AWAY FROM THE WOMEN & CHILDREN FOR A FEW DAYS, BUT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. IN FACT IT HAPPENED TO ME IN ZIMBABWE A COUPLE YEARS AGO. WE GOT A BIG MALE ON BAIT, BY HIMSELF, THEN HE LEFT THE CONCESSION, WE KNOW BECAUSE HE WAS CLOSE TO THE BORDER AND WE SAW HIS TRACKS. THEN 2 DAYS LATER HE CAME BACK, HIT THE BAIT AGAIN, WE SAT THAT NIGHT BUT HE NEVER SHOWED, THEN IN THE MORNING WE PICKED UP HIS TRACK AGAIN AND HE WALKED SEVERAL, MORE LIKE 5, MILES DOWN THE ROAD TO WHERE WE HAD ANOTHER BAIT THAT WAS BEING FED ON FOR 3 DAYS BY FEMALES AND LITTLE ONES. TURNED OUT, HE WAS THE PRIDE MALE AS WE WATCHED HIM ON THE TRAIL CAM WITH THE PRIDE FOR 2 DAYS. WE THOUGHT THAT THE OTHER MALE WE SAW, AND SAW SIGN OF NEAR THE AREA WAS THE PRIDE MALE, BUT NO, IT WAS THIS GUY. OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN SEE MY POINT, HAD THE PRIDE MALE COOPERATED EITHER NIGHT WE SAT ON HIM BY HIMSELF, HE WOULD BE DEAD. ALL THE WHILE HE SPENT AT LEAST 5 DAYS AWAY FROM HIS PRIDE, MILES AWAY, GIVING US NO INDICATION THIS WAS HIS PRIDE. WE KILLED THE OTHER MALE INSTEAD!! PLUS IN YOUR QUOTE ABOVE WE ARE BACK TO KNOWING EXACT AGES OF THE YOUNG NOW TOO? ARE THEY 18-24 MONTHS OLD, WHO KNOWS?????????? SCIENTIFIC THEORY/PRACTICAL APPLICATION, TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!

The above example is my point as it pertains to practical application in the field, of all these age restrictions, vs pride dynamics, etc, etc. Never hunted your area, no doubt TGT has some wonderful lions, and maybe the country is open enough to always see the pride males and/or the pride males always hang out with the prides, etc, etc. But in many areas of southern and eastern Africa where I have hunted lion, the bush is thick, seeing lion at anything other than a bait site is a shot in the dark at best, and if the pride male is NOT with the pride at all times, then he hits your bait at some point when he is off by himself, and then gets shot!!! There just went all the scientific theory listed above, out the window, and trust me it happens, guaranteed!! That's often the problem with science, great in theory, but practical application under real world conditions is often a whole different story. Maybe TGT actually does know everything about the lions and the prides in their area, I however won't believe that. In fact if they did, the phone calls like the ones listed below wouldn't be necessary. The PH would know immediately the age of the lion, pride dynamics, etc, etc. Lions are elusive, they travel, nomadic males move through the areas, their wild animals, etc, etc. But let's say for argument sake they do, and you should know? Most other outfitters in Tanzania and throughout lion country in Africa, DO NOT have the time or resources to participate in such in-depth studies of the lions in their area like TGT. Most of them are also in the business to make a profit, regardless of whether anyone likes that or not, its a fact. So, now let's input these restrictive age laws along with very stiff penalties if the law is broken, and watch how fast the lion hunting industry folds?? If all hunting companies in TZ run the same success rate on lions as TGT, how long do you think guys are gonna keep spending big money on lions hunts?? Remember, lion hunters and their big dollars are what pays for the LION in most places. Then you run into problems like Steve Chancellor had when hunting lion with TGT, obviously he can afford it and afford not to get one, but he is there to get one if possible. Now, he's only shot 40 plus lions throughout Africa, hardly an experienced lion hunter, and yet he argued numerous times with his PH over a couple lions that he insisted should be shot. The PH didn't know for sure???????? But made phone calls to HQ, everyone argued over it, etc, etc. At the end of the day, he left without a lion and quite upset, from what I hear. Doesn't that sound like a wonderful experience you would like to repeat time and time again? If all PH's have to follow such a LAW, they will be so scared to death to shoot a lion that no one's gonna get one!!! Clients are gonna get pissed, and they are gonna stop booking hunts, period! Now to TGT that may not matter, but to alot of other companies it will be a major problem, guaranteed. Hunters dollars pay for hunting, and wildlife in TZ. Not everyone has to get one, but success should be higher than 20%.

Trust me man, I am still on your side! I just want something than is "practical", something than can realistically be adhered to, and yet still allow for reasonable success amongst hunters, and PH's that are comfortable with their decisions and not hunting in fear of losing their livelihoods over an honest mistake.

Aaron Neilson

This is one of the best threads I've seen here in ages. No chest beating, no flaming, just intelligent, enjoyable debate.

One thing I will point out that there seems to be an assumption that a Lion upgrade will mean a ban in imports. This isn't the case. All it will mean is that they'll be in the same catagory as Leopard and Elephant and will need an import licence that (should) be obtained beforehand.

Admittedly, this might possibly mean that USF&WS migh move THEIR goalposts with respect to that, but that's a USF&WS problem not a CITES problem.

quote:

That's often the problem with science, great in theory, but practical application under real world conditions is often a whole different story.

Sir...I make my living every day applying science to practical situations. I cannot imagine making decisions any other way. That would be foreign to me.

Not to be argumentative but as I read your posts...I read that in your opinion...when paying to hunt a lion...a lion MUST be killed...hopefully it was one past breeding age or not a pride male.

My opinion (and I am an avid lifelong hunter) is that if there is even a shred of doubt...it goes to the lion.

If lion ever get to be like coyotes in Texas...rules can be more lax.

ledvm - Man, I am really not sure what's your whole point other than to be dis-agreeable?? I NEVER said that killing a lion is a MUST!! I said that it's important that lion hunting success rates are greater than 20%, otherwise lion hunters go away, and so does the money that is generated from lion hunting, which benefits outfitters, PH's, the communities, and also pays for anti-poaching, etc, etc, etc. All the things that are benefiting the LION in the first place!!!

Secondly, a picture of a tooth proves what, you got a tooth? Do you have other teeth from KNOWN AGED lions from that exact same region to compare them to??? If not, it's just a guess, nothing more! I have stated, and if you read Bwanamich's response, even he agrees that tooth aging is still not proven in lions to be accurate, and it certainly doesn't apply from region to region or country to country. Besides, none of that answers the question of how to apply that to live, wild lions. Your obviously the educated Dr. of animal science, so rather than taking little quotes from other posts that fit your scenario, which I am not even sure what that is?? Please tell us HOW we use science to accurately age lions on the "PAW", accurately enough that a Tanzania PH can assess the lion's age by visual confirmation, and feel confident that the lion is 6 yrs old, or older???? If that cannot be done, which it can't, you will have the problem I mention above in my first paragraph, and I assure you in the end the lion will suffer the most!!! Perhaps we can ask the lion to hold on while we remove a tooth, but then what?? All we have is a tooth and no accurate way to decipher its age anyway???

How about I try your trick? The following are quotes from Graeme regarding Botswana - "Here in Botswana we invented the no shoot unless its 6 years or more - actually just joking Botswana followed some other countries - however in Botswana not only did the male have to be 6 years and older - we were not allowed to hunt from a blind , no spotlights , no males with females - in fact one confused situation arose where it was thought only males alone meant no 2 males together, no baiting". In the field we were however required to age the fleeing Lion ( remember we were on foot in thick bush - they lie up during the heat of the day in the best shade - and have yet to meet a man with better eye sight /hearing /scent sensing abilities than a Lion). "Botswana being the country that it is - realised this was not an exact science and did away with punishing any mistakes".

Botswana realized this was not exact science, and did away with punishing any mistakes. Gee, I wonder why???? In 2007 I hunted lion in Bots, Graeme I am sure knows where and with who. I was told by my PH from the get-go, no lions under 6 yrs old, no males from a pride, no baiting, etc. Just as Graeme lists above. My PH is very experienced, and has hunted this concession for several years. I actually asked the PH about the age requirement, as it concerned me, both for the success of my hunt, and I certainly do not want to break the law! We both agreed immediately, the other laws were pretty cut and dried. "So how do we know for sure if the lion is 6 yrs old or older, I asked"? His response, "I have no idea"!!! He told me when we see a big male, with a big mane, and as long as he is not with females or cubs, we are shooting him, period!!! He said "look man, the govt doesn't even know how to age them correctly. They just threw that in there so it appeared to non-hunters, anti-hunters, wildlife lovers, etc, that they were doing the right thing"!!!!!!!

So since we cannot pull a tooth prior to shooting the lion. On the first page I have a bunch of pics of lions. Please use your scientific knowledge and lengthy education, and accurately age each of the lions I have taken. Quite frankly you are probably getting a better look at them than most PH's will in the field. Oh, but don't forget. If you make a mistake, one that is judged by the TZ government and all their wisdom, you can lose your license to practice veterinary medicine, (YOUR LIVELIHOOD)and will be assessed a huge fine. Last but not least, your client who has just paid you $70,000.00 for his trophy lion hunt, is losing his trophy and most likely suing you in the end, as you are the responsible party.

Now I am sure you will take a half hearted approach to the above example as it's only a scenario that's not actually gonna happen to you. But it's exactly the scenario that will be faced by many PH's and clients, if a hard and fast, un-provable, age limit is imposed! Guys who are friends and clients of mine, first off. Secondly, and I have already said it. If the PH's, the clients and the communities start to lose, SO WILL THE LION!!!!

Aaron Neilson

quote:

Secondly, a picture of a tooth proves what, you got a tooth? Do you have other teeth from KNOWN AGED lions from that exact same region to compare them to???

It is the science thing again. Pulp cavity diameter does not vary much from area to area. A fairly consistent thing to measure age by. There are some good studies to back this up.

Again...NOT trying to be argumentative. Trying to help Lion...hunting...and have it based in science!

Maybe I spoke too soon!

Alternatively, maybe it's robust debate!

quote:

But it's exactly the scenario that will be faced by many PH's and clients, if a hard and fast, un-provable, age limit is imposed! Guys who are friends and clients of mine,

I have many PH friends as well who mail me teeth to x-ray so that they can validate their selection criteria.

It helps them a lot.

Sorry to have angered you so much...I just disagree with your logic.

quote:

HOW we use science to accurately age lions on the "PAW", accurately enough that a Tanzania PH can assess the lion's age by visual confirmation, and feel confident that the lion is 6 yrs old, or older????

One learns all of the phenotypic characteristics of >6 year old lions and validates those with scientifically proven means of definitively aging the species such as measuring the pulp cavity of the second upper premolar.

quote:

Not everyone has to get one, but success should be higher than 20%.

Agreed. And if everyone is shooting 6+ lions and only marketing a few lion hunts per area per year then it will be more than 20%. The problem with TGT's success rate is that as you said lions are highly nomadic. The young lions that are passed over by TGT get shot in neighboring concessions and many of them are never given the chance to grow up. If everyone's on the same page that doesn't happen and success rates go up after a few years.

As to the practicle use of science. Well that's what your doctor does every day. And believe me at times it is very ambiguous. And trust me his or her license and financial well being are "on the line" with their decisions and at times guess work. But they are the experts with health and that's what they get paid for. Just like PHs are the experts with lions (or at least should be!!!) and that's what they get paid for. I'm not necesarily saying the fines proposed are or aren't appropriate. What I'm saying is that if you make a law without teeth no one follows it and the law is useless. I don't think anyone here is saying the 6 year and no dependant cub rule must be followed to a "T" under penalty of death. I think the idea is that if everyone makes there best attempt at it it will reduce the collateral damage (lions with dependant cubs killed, younger lions killed) to an acceptable level compared to its present state. Almost nothing works 100% all the time. Not even with science. We use the best principals and facts at hand to make the best decisions and take the best actions posible.

Brett

Brett,
Very nicely put! I am on the exact same page as you.

+2

Aaron,
- You are taking it for granted that Tz has already adopted the penalties and measures you comment into LAW when that is not the case. In 2005, the Wildlife Division issued a regulation that no lion under the age of 6 can be hunted. That has never been enforced because there are no mechanisms to do so yet. But this is something that will need to be tackled, hopefully in a way that the private sector i.e. hunting operators, phs and the like can have their input.
- Often TGT's lion policy gets discussed in such a way as you have. What we have to remember is that TGT does not impose their policy on any one other than their phs and clients and the latter is done in the most transparent way possible with absolute consensus form every client. The result is that in recent years, TGT has produced consistently outstanding lions aged 6 years or older - 2009 is no exception. There are occasionally "marginal" lions amongst these too
- You want to tell me that professionals can't accurately estimate if a young male lion is 2 years or younger?? Then, I'm sorry but they shouldn't be hunting lions!
- I can't comment on what Mr Chancellor’s experience was on his hunt with TGT as that is his private business. What I can clarify for you is that those phone calls were NOT to discuss the age of a particular lion but to explain to HQ about the developments on the safari vis a vis Mr Chancellor's disagreements with his PH. Let us remember that there are always 2 sides to every story (or is it three sides )
- Graeme, I do not believe Packer has turned anti lion hunting at all. His position is very clear from the public statements he has made in my presence and that is that hunting lion the way it is currently predominantly conducted, with no regards to the age of the hunted individual and with no attempt at using science of any kind as a base to regulate and monitor this to ensure its sustainability is reckless and detrimental to many lion populations. I shouldn't say this maybe but in that context, here in Tz, he is unfortunately correct! He is for the regulated and monitored sustainable hunting of lion. It is unfortunate that he has decided to make his point the way he has and therefore lost the critical support of the hunting industry in the process.
- I disagree with Aaron that without a higher success rate than 20%, lion hunting is doomed and with it lions will decline to the point of no return. The TGT module proves it as I can say with confidence that they have not suffered in bookings as a result of their policy. In fact the very reason that their policy is so successful is that they have the full support of their clients, both new and regular.
- With regards your explanation on the difficulty of determining whether a male seen alone is part of a pride or not highlights the usefulness of the bait method for hunting male lions. A properly set-up bait can allow the hunters to have multiple sittings to view the male lion which in turn can help in a) determining its estimated age properly and carefully and b) whether it has a pride or not as more often than not, the pride WILL show-up to the bait. In fact, it is often the pride that finds the bait first and then lures the male in! Of course there are exceptions to this rule but those exceptions are insignificant in the greater picture, wouldn't you agree?

ledvm - I guess the scientists that I spoke with, and the one I have spent time with in the field, the ones that ACTUALLY studying lions, must be wrong?

I gave a bunch of scenarios here, all of which you have completely ignored, except to tell me that science can be translated by the average lay person into practical field application. The Botswana PH I mentioned didn't have a clue how they expected him to know the age of the lions in the field, neither did they, thus they did away with the penalties.

You've been studying and aging so many teeth from your PH friends, obviously comparing them with photos, etc. So you should have no trouble then telling all of us just how old all the lions are in the pics I have put up?? I know I can't, but hey man, 'm no scientist either. Just a lion hunter with a whole lot of real world, in the field, under hunting conditions, in many different countries, and regions within those countries, experience hunting and field judging lions, many of them. But like you have said repeatedly, science knows better. So please tell us, how old are all of the lions in the pics? Once you provide the ages, please also provide the science behind how you came to such conclusions, and then we will all know how to properly age a lion, in the wild, on the paw, and we can all put an end to this debate.

Your quote - "It is the science thing again. Pulp cavity diameter does not vary much from area to area. A fairly consistent thing to measure age by. There are some good studies to back this up". THERE ARE STUDIES THAT BACKUP WHAT???? PULP CAVITY DIAMETER IS A GOOD WAY TO JUDGE THE AGE, OR IT DOES NOT VARY MUCH FROM AREA TO AREA??? CAUSE IF YOU ARE ARGUING THE LATTER OF THE TWO, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT STUDY????? BESIDES, YOU SAY IT DOESN'T VARY MUCH, HOW MUCH DOES IT HAVE TO VARY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Bottom line, all of the science regarding the age, the tooth, etc, etc, will absolutely not matter in the real world application! Not sure how many lions you seen in the wild, hunted, shot, been part of shooting, etc, etc, etc. Me, a couple! Lions are like people, and just like whitetails, they ALL look different!!! How many 5 yr old whitetails are there running about that ALL look totally different, especially from region to region. Here in Colorado a 5 yr old whitetail likely weighs 250 plus pounds and probably scores over 160". Some of them are only 8 pts, in fact I have guided three 8 pts on my ranch over 160". Some of them are 10 pts, some 12 pts. Some score high, some score low, some are massive, some not so much but have long beams and big tines, ON AND ON, ON!!! Then move to south Texas, deer there are rats compared to our big corn fed deer. Some with just as big of racks, some not, and the list goes on!! I have personally guided 40 whitetails over 160 and another 40-50 muleys over 180" in the past 19 years. Can't tell ya the exact age of a single one of them. But I can tell you in 10 seconds by looking at a deer, if he's mature enough to be shot, guaranteed! Fact is LIONS are the same. You can have 15 different lions from 15 different locations, all the same age, and they are all likely to look TOTALLY different. Some have big bodies, some small, some have big manes, some not, some have manes past their shoulders, some not at all. And SOME have all of these different characteristics by lions that are ALL in the same general region. I gave examples of that too, but you conveniently skipped ALL of that and just keep coming back to the fact that science can do it. Well first off, the science is only as good as the one doing it, and secondly, is going to be even less reliable in the hands of PH's who are experienced hunters and killers, not scientists. But yet they stand to lose everything because the intellects of the world want to prove they know more than those of us with the REAL EXPERIENCE!! I can't exactly age a lion on the paw, but I guarantee you I can LOOK at a lion in the field and tell you whether or not he's old and mature enough to be shot. How can I prove that, I can't! But 15 years of lion hunting experience tells me I know what I am doing and looking at in the field. I will guarantee you, most PH's will have the same answer. How do you know it's old and mature enough, you will ask?? They will respond, "because I just know"!!

Fact is Ledvm, I am not getting mad. I just want what's best for LIONS and those that most often look after them, the PH's. 2+2 = 4, that's science that we can ALL agree we know to be factual. Looking at a lion, and saying with certainty that his age is _____ because of his looks will never be factual science, only an educated guess at best!!! A guess that I say is better left to experienced PH's who hunt the areas and the real world much more than the scientist who swoops in for a few weeks or a few months, then proceeds to tell all about all he knows.

Let me leave you with one really good example of that very scenario I just mentioned! In June 2008 I was on Senuko in the Save Valley of Zim hunting lion. In 11 days, I say 26 different lions, I know that because we had them ALL on trail cams from different locations. One single picture showed 11 different lions feeding at the bait. Now, we also saw tracks of other lions that I am certain were not the same ones as in the pictures, based on when we saw the sign (Same Day), their location, etc. So conservatively, I can say with confidence that I know of at least 30 different lions that were just on Senuko alone. Now, just a few months before my hunt the conservancy wanted to try and get a handle on the possible lion population, so they hired the "Scientist" who runs the lion study program in Hwange Nat Park. A proposed LION EXPERT, who studies and evaluates lion populations, etc. According to Glenn, he spent a week driving around and doing little else. Not only on Senuko but some of the other southern properties of the conservancy. After his brief and professional, scientific evaluation, he declared that the whole southern part of the conservancy had maybe as many as 15 lions total!! Well, if that's the case I guess they doubled their population in just a few months, and ALL of them ended up on Senuko at the same time. Fact is, this guy didn't have a clue how many lions were there or even how to go about finding the answer to that question. But because he has some fancy degree and others think he's and expert and thus take his "expert" advice, the real experts are left to deal with it.

Examples like this are exactly why I am not willing to leave it up to science and scientists. This SO CALLED lion expert was as much of a lion expert as I am a veterinarian. But the conservancy chairman was listening to him rather than Glenn, until I not only told him of my first hand experience over the past 2 weeks, but we showed him the trail cam pics as well. The REAL experts are the guys like Glenn, the PH's who know their area and the game as best that it can be known. Impose laws, impose limits, but let the REAL experts have the last word, without fear of retribution or legal penalty!!

Aaron Neilson