quote:

Aaron,
This is specifically to you.

This thread and this website as well as all the others like it combined are a mere drop of water in the Pacific compared to what the medical (both veterinary and human) profession faces daily.

Do you watch the news???

Yep, I noticed all the people "outside" the veterinary community signing up for the "Veterinary Report". One where a $100.00 per year subscription tells all of us about the world of veterinary sceince, including reports about the GOOD, BAD and the UGLY. Where a single complaint is seen by thousands of folks in a tight nit community, around the world, that substantiated or not, can have profound negative effects, regardless of the facts of the case. Ya, I also saw on the news where a neighbor took his dog to the vet, paid money and then was very unhappy with the outcome, so he went onto the internet and told thousands of members of "ACCURATE VETERINARIAN", about the poor service he received and how no one should go to this particular vet. Neither example listed above is gonna happen because the world of the vet is not a lifelong passion shared by millions all around the world, that they spend thousands of dollars a year on, to participate in!!

Just like the cow example you gave, you're not comparing apples to apples.


"Otherwise we will be just like Aaron...we'll have a room full of trophies that we think are 6 or above but we won't know for sure. Not that it makes a difference for these individuals but for the future of lion hunting in general!"

Another one of your quotes listed above. Use ALL the science you want and the outcome will be the same. You can't hazard a guess at the age of my lions, and Bwanamich gave his best guess at the ages of some of the lions I have shot. I happen to agree whole heartedly with Bwanamich, but his guess is just that, an educated guess. All the science you can provide, will only give an estimation, you've admitted that already, the same estimation I can already make from 15 years of lion hunting experience.

They got that good from 3 things: 1) experience 2) accountability (job loss if wrong very often) 3) by going and looking "inside" of what they produced and "CORRELATING POST-MORTEM FINDINGS WITH FUTURE ANTE-MORTEM BUYS"!

"Post mortem finds with future Ante-Mortem buys". Yep, anti-mortem buys of KNOWN AGED cows, that are a domestic animal, have been for centuries, and most of which have been chemically altered over the years through genetic breeding, etc, etc. Ya, I TOTALLY see the correlation between this example and wild lions in Africa!!!

quote:

IE: If every time a lion is studied and shot, a predictable marker is evaluated post-mortem to verify that particular animal's age, DON'T YOU THINK YOU WILL GET BETTER EACH TIME???

Sorry, I missed this one. Yes, I absolutely think folks can get better through the science that you advocate so much. But, you argue for it as if it an exact, and it's not. And I argue that if it's not an exact, that I can make every bit as much of an educated estimation through experience, as can science. I do not want PH's or clients penalized, perhaps severely, because of in-adequate science.

Twice I have seen the reply that "no one is saying it should be an EXACT, before a penalty is imposed, but we want something that comes close. So the idea would be that 6 yrs old or older is ideal, but 5 is acceptable. Anything under that is a STIFF PENALTY. Well, you yourself said that the science likely will not be exact, but could possibly estimate the age with 1 year. Great, right up until the PH and client shoot a lion that quite possibly is 5 yrs old, one they felt confident was a mature shooter, but the NOT SO EXACT AND ACCURATE science comes back and says is only a 4 yr old, despite the fact that is could actually be a 5 yrs old, but NO ONE can say 100% for sure. SO if the policy is adopted, guess what, these guys are in BIG SHIT, the client has lost a trophy, and most likely the PH has lost his license. Ya, sounds like a great plan to me.

I am ALL for using the science to help educate all of us. I listen alot to what Dr. White has told me about lions, based on her scientific experience and data. But, when a Dr. with her experience and credentials with lions, tells me that the science of aging and evaluating lions will likely almost never be an exact, then I have a huge problem with it being used to levy penalties that can be catastrophic to those involved, and doing there best to do the right thing.

Aaron Neilson

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

We only shoot deer we think are 5.5 yrs and older. In each instance, the client was at first a little ticked, but after careful explanation of the reason behind it, everything seemed ok.

Why is this okay for deer but not for lion?

While I hope this isn't the case, based on your comments about making a living - the conclusion that I draw from your statements is that you want to only shoot older lions, unless letting a younger lion walk will take money out of your pocket.

dla69 - Have you seen anywhere that I said shooting young lions is OK????? I said we "TRY" to shoot deer we "feel" through experience are 5.5 yrs old or older, mature deer. However, if we were to make a mistake, no one is waiting in the wings to fine the hell out of us, take the client's trophy away, and confiscate our PH license, HUGE DIFFERENCE.

When I hunt lions, I too try to only harvest lions that I think are fully mature, not with females or dependent young, and is a trophy that fits my criteria. What I don't want to see is a law that takes my trophy away, fines me and/or the PH and also jerks his PH license because some scientist says this is how we age lions. Oh, but its not an exact science!

Below is my entire quote, not just the part that you quoted that fits best to your side. As you can see, I clearly say that shooting a young animal, regardless of it being a lion or a deer is un-acceptable.

LOOK, if a client of mine came back raising hell over the PH not letting him shoot a lion, and then the PH tells me that the lion was an obvious 2-3 yr old male with spots still on his legs, just a completely un-acceptable animal to harvest, I would tell the client to get fucked!!! Pardon my language. I do the same thing on our leases here in Colorado for DEER, all the time. I have had a couple instances in the past 2 years with clients, both times I had mule deer in the mid 180's that were likely only 4.5 yr old deer, and I refused to let the clients shoot the deer. We only shoot deer we think are 5.5 yrs and older. In each instance, the client was at first a little ticked, but after careful explanation of the reason behind it, everything seemed ok

quote:

A whale of a difference in making comparisons between a cow and a lion!
Those folks who can come within a year or 2 would fail miserably with lion

Yep...there is! Kinda like comparing uh...lions and cows isn't.

Just because aging lions on-th-paw is difficult does not for a second mean it is impossible.

There were a whole lot of folks that thought going to the moon was IMPOSSIBLE.

Turns out it wasn't impossible at all. Damn difficult but with good science very possible!

quote:

Yep, I noticed all the people "outside" the veterinary community signing up for the "Veterinary Report". One where a $100.00 per year subscription tells all of us about the world of veterinary sceince, including reports about the GOOD, BAD and the UGLY. Where a single complaint is seen by thousands of folks in a tight nit community, around the world, that substantiated or not, can have profound negative effects, regardless of the facts of the case. Ya, I also saw on the news where a neighbor took his dog to the vet, paid money and then was very unhappy with the outcome, so he went onto the internet and told thousands of members of "ACCURATE VETERINARIAN", about the poor service he received and how no one should go to this particular vet. Neither example listed above is gonna happen because the world of the vet is not a lifelong passion shared by millions all around the world, that they spend thousands of dollars a year on, to participate in!!

Aaron,
You did not get the names correct but what you printed above is actually true they DO!

I just got through sticking needles in a $150,000.00 horse going to an event competeting for a $200,000.00 or more happening right now in Oklahoma City.

If you think that if I make a mistake on one of those kinda horses it won't be all over the internet the next day...you are crazy!!!

I am getting tired of this argument. I want to help lions and PH's who hunt them. I am an avid hunter. I want to ensure huntable populations of lions for eternity. Aarron wants the same thing. We just disagree on how to do it. And I can tell you based on this discussion we will probably NEVER agree as I am damn hard-headed and I know I am not going to change my mind. I don't think Aaron is either no mattaer how hard I try. But in the end we still want the same thing. Since I am a scientist...it is just logical to me to use science to get there.

Ledvm - Man, I cannot wait to buy you a beer and really have a good face to face debate about this. I know you want soooo bad for science to win, but it is and always will be impossible to age wild lions on the paw without it being an educated, scientific estimate, no matter how small the science community might claim that estimate to be. Just ask the EXPERT scientists involved in the study of lions now, they all have differing degrees of what they think and believe as it pertains to lion aging. The earth however, has only 1 moon, pretty easy to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt we got there. Every lion looks different, maybe someday science will prove the ages of wild lions with a tooth sample or something of the like, but it will never PROVE how to age every single wild lion on the paw, without accounting for mistake or error.

quote:

Just ask the EXPERT scientists involved in the study of lions now, they all have differing degrees of what they think and believe as it pertains to lion aging.

Have and do.

quote:

but it will never PROVE how to age every single wild lion on the paw, without accounting for mistake or error.

Like Mitch...just wanna stay in the 90 percentile.

quote:

but it is and always will be impossible to age wild lions on the paw

I have learned as a steward of science that NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE.

quote:

I know you want soooo bad for science to win,

Science ALWAYS wins. Not because I want it but because it bears out the truth. History has born that out. Just hope the lion last long enough for you anti-science people to get on board...cause it is the only train leaving town headed for the long-term.

Ledvm - In all seriousness, please come by my booth at DSC or SCI, I actually do want to buy you a drink. Trust me, I do believe in science, and would value the opinions of guys like yours, and I mean that sincerely.

Aaron Neilson

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Ledvm - In all seriousness, please come by my booth at DSC or SCI, I actually do want to buy you a drink. Trust me, I do believe in science, and would value the opinions of guys like yours, and I mean that sincerely.

Aaron Neilson

Internet conversations are an SOB! I'm definitely stopping by at SCI Aaron!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Now, to your other point. And once again, please do not take offense to this because it's not directed at you, or intended as an insult, just some facts that must be considered. Everyone here talks about the wonderful job that TGT does in terms of lion preservation, and I agree. But the fact is, TGT is not operating in the REAL world, let me explain my position. We all know the owners of TGT are an extremely wealthy family from the U.S., and the bottom line is of NO concern to them. Perhaps you can confirm, but I heard rumors that TGT actually celebrated the fact that they made a dollar last year, at their last Christmas party. Now look, I do not mean any of that as an insult, in fact it is a very enviable position that I am positive most Tanzania hunting operations would love to be in. Heck, I know I would. But what it does for them, and you as a TGT employee is allow all of you to make decisions, knowing that you will have no consequences associated with those decisions that could heavily effect your livelihood. The owners of TGT I am sure do not want clients like Steve Chancellor, or any others for that matter, leaving un-happy, and I am sure you don't either. Everyone involved with TGT is most likely very honest and reputable, but fact is if 100% of your clients left disappointed and without a lion for example, TGT ownership ain't gonna starve, and you are still getting a pay check. So it's easy to point fingers at others operations that DO NOT HAVE THE LUXURY to make decisions in the same manner that TGT does. Bwanamich, you have a wonderful safety net that allows for lack of success to be acceptable, and yet you still get paid, plus know full well that if the same thing happens next year, your superiors won't mind. If TGT went the next 10 years and didn't make a single dollar, the owners will not get too concerned, but most of the hunting industry DOES NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY. Thus most of the outfitting community needs to make decisions that are best for the clients as well as the game. Thus, making it a much finer line to walk. Let too many people think you are not successful as a hunting operation, and watch how fast the clients go away. Yes I know, TGT continues to get them, but you and I both know TGT has a select clientele, and facts are that MOST clients are not the same as the guys that go with TGT. There are not thousands of guys out there with the money TGT clients have, nor are willing to accept the same disappointments that some TGT clients are willing to as well.

So take all of that into consideration and sometimes guys need to sub-lease their areas, they need to consider client success, they need to consider that MAKING A DOLLAR IS PARAMOUNT TO THEIR SUCCESS. Hard to pay the bills or put food on the table when the company is not profitable???? Unless that is of course you are a wealthy U.S. family that is not concerned about the profitability, or employees of said company that get paid either way as well. Please, take this for what it is, just reality, not an insult directed at you or TGT.

Aaron, from your above, I see a simple difference in philosophy between your idea of a "successful safari" and TGT's. TGT sells a safari "experience" and obviously securing a good, varied bag of trophies is very important. Fortunately, through a philantrophic approach to hunting and the generous financial support of its shareholders, the latter is regularly achieved. You state that TGT does not need to be profitable so decisions taken are less important but if you think for 1 second that there is less accountability to shareholders and clients on how management performs you are completely mistaken. I won't go into detail suffice to say that the pressure to produce results is possibly higher in this scenario where expecting first class results across the board; trophies, conservation, standards, quality, etc, is the minimum! The difference between the Gross Profit and the Net loss is what the owners of TGT willinglly give to conservation efforts; anti-poaching, community development, research and monitoring. I firmly believe that without this additional commitment form its shareholders, TGT - and the other 4 companies associated with it -would not be as successful as they are in what they do.

TGT sells a different expectation from the norm. No one is saying that is better or worse than any other. That is the choice of the one putting up the investment to make. TGT is able to "sell" this concept to its clientele successfully. Is this wrong? Is this "elitist"? Why do so many people make infantile comments such as "Perhaps you can confirm, but I heard rumors that TGT actually celebrated the fact that they made a dollar last year, at their last Christmas party."? What is it to them?

Nothing wrong with sub-leasing at all, if done responsibly. I mean why would you allow someone on your concession time and time again to shoot the heck out of it with your full knowledge that it is being done unsustainably, un-ethically, often using illegal methods (spotlight hunting, chasing game with the car, etc, etc)? Just to make $30k more at the end of the year? That is what all us "professional hunting operators" and PHs ought to stand against. No point saying you believe that hunting is good for conservation, bla, bla, bla if you are responsible, through your actions influenced by the desire to make more profit, in the opposite?

quote:

LOOK, if a client of mine came back raising hell over the PH not letting him shoot a lion, and then the PH tells me that the lion was an obvious 2-3 yr old male with spots still on his legs, just a completely un-acceptable animal to harvest, I would tell the client to get fucked!!! Pardon my language. I do the same thing on our leases here in Colorado for DEER, all the time. I have had a couple instances in the past 2 years with clients, both times I had mule deer in the mid 180's that were likely only 4.5 yr old deer, and I refused to let the clients shoot the deer. We only shoot deer we think are 5.5 yrs and older. In each instance, the client was at first a little ticked, but after careful explanation of the reason behind it, everything seemed ok. But on the other hand, if Steve Chancellor was my client, a client who has shot 40 plus lions in his life, and he came back raising hell about his $100,000.00 lion hunt, that was un-successful because the PH/company would not let him shoot a lion that his VAST EXPERIENCE tells him was obviously mature. Yep, I would be pretty pissed!! One, because I value my client, and two because I depend on client happiness to ensure that he returns again as a client. I unfortunately, like most rely on a profitable operation to survive. So before you guys cast stones at operators who are not following the TGT model to a "T", perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes first. I know that not everyone is doing is as good as TGT, but NOT EVERYONE has the same luxuries as TGT does either.

So the TGT ph should have allowed Mr Chancellor to shoot a 4 year old male because he paid $100k? Mr Chancellor has shot 40 lions you claim? That translates to say 600 days in the field hunting lion (He often had multiple permits on the same safari). The PH guiding him had close to 40 years experience hunting DG. Who is better positioned to make such a call? As a PH yourself, how do you feel about a client imposing his opinion on your decision when it comes to trophy judgement? Or does your decision depend on how much the client is worth?

No offense to you Aaron, but you claim 15 years of lion hunting? You have shot 8/9 lions IIRC, so at an average of 14 days per lion that gives you 126 days hunting lion. Say another 150 days of being in the field looking, studying lions, etc that is still not anywhere comparable to an African PH that was born, bred and grew up in the African bush surrounded by them and who for 15 or more years has made it his "job" to hunt lions professionally, does it? That is why, despite Shakari being polite, I do not consider myself an expert on lions by any stretch of the immagination.

How old do you estimate these known aged lions?

NH49



MG70


NN49


MK79


S#82


SUH

BwanaMich,

Just for clarity, I said I consider you the most knowledgeable person here on the subject of Lions. Not particularly on the subject of hunting Lions, just Lions and the management principles thereof etc but not a Lion expert.

FWIW, (IMO) there are very few true Lion experts in the world and probably even fewer Lion hunting experts. However, from my experience, those few of either catagory, are always well worth listening to. I'd add that (IMO) the same can be said of Elephants.

As to subletting: From my personal experience, there are some very good companies that sublease their areas and who run those areas extremely well and there are also some leaseholders who run their areas EXTREMELY badly. I can think of areas (esp in the north) that were the jewel in the crown in years gone by and are now absolutely decimated and certainly won't come back in my lifetime and will probably never come back.

It's not about whether the area is sublet or not, it's about how well the area and hunting operation is run by the company and individuals that actually make use of it.

Regarding Mr Chancellor, I don't know anything about the incident and there are a wide variety of possible scenarios, but it could well be that the Lion in question may have been of shootable age but it could have been holding a pride with dependent young and therefore even if it were the biggest and most mature Lion in Africa, not an appropriate animal to take. In which case, the PH would have been quite right not to allow the client to take it.

One problem with African hunting nowadays (and the following comments are NOT directed at Mr Chancellor) is that (some) hunters increasingly suffer a degree of supermarket shopping mentality, where they expect, sometimes demand success because they've shelled out a lot of money. I understand why they might feel like that but true hunting is true hunting and doesn't come with guarantees of trophy success.

Add on the factor that most of the people that can afford this kind of thing (esp at the top end of the market such as TGT operate in) are usually very successful in their own sphere of business and are very used to getting their own way and one can understand that some might struggle to deal with the disappointment of a very expensive but unsuccessful safari.

No1, 7 to 8
No2, 4 to 5
No3, 5
No4, 3
No5, 5
No6, 5
How is my guess?

Bwanamich - Trust me, I respect TGT's management plan very much. I just don't think they operate under the same conditions that others do, especially when it comes to a concern with the bottom line. Thus, they have the luxury to make business, game management and harvest decisions much differently than some others. Like I said, that's not a bad thing, especially if you are a lion living in a TGT block! Its just different.

Your right, I don't know all the facts regarding Mr. Chancellor, and you bring up a good point regarding the client/ph relationship. When guiding myself, I like the client to listen and do as I say. I will occasionally listen to his advice/opinion if I feel he is a knowledgable and experienced hunter, and what he is saying sounds reasonable. No matter who you are, or how long you have been doing it, no one knows everything. But as an agent, it would be hard NOT to seriously consider siding with a client with his knowledge and experience when it comes to lion hunting. But let me say this, as a fellow guide/outfitter I ALWAYS give the benefit of the doubt to the guide, and am always more likely to side with the guide. So honestly, I would listen to the PH's version of the story too, before I made any decision regarding my opinion of the matter.

As for my personal lion hunting experience. I have shot 11 lions, been on 14 personal lion hunts, and have now accompanied 4 clients on lion hunts of their own, all which were successful. I have done these hunts in 6 different countries, and in multiple areas within most of the 6. I honestly lost exact count, but I know for a fact I have spent over 300 days in the field actually hunting lion. Plus another couple weeks observing, studying, etc, and always in HUNTING BLOCKS. I have only spent 1 day in a National Park in all the time I have spent in Africa. No doubt many PH's have more field hunting experience regarding lion, but I have not met too many that have more lion hunting experience than I when it comes to diversity regarding countries, locations within those countries, and methods of hunting.

Lastly, I will give my opinion regarding the age of the lions, but more importantly to me, based just on the picture of each, and assuming each is a lion without a pride/dependent young, etc. I will tell you whether or not I would actually shoot the lion, or if I feel it should be shot period. I say that because there's no way to know anything different based only on the pics provided.

Lion #1 - 7yrs plus Man he looks older than hell, and needs to be shot!
Lion #2 - 4yrs roughly. No, I would not advocate shooting this lion. To me, he just looks a bit young.
Lion #3 - 4-5yrs This one is tough for me. Honestly, I would like to see a standing pic so I could have an overall look at him, his mane, his body. etc, but I would say he's not a shooter. Personally I would like his mane filled in around his ears more.
Lion #4 - 4yrs I personally think this lion could use at least another year or two of maturity and I would likely not advocate shooting him.
Lion #5 - 6 yrs Would love to shoot him and would likely if no dependent young or obviously pregnant females were with him.
Lion #6 - Honestly, who cares! He's gettin shot!!!

Ok boys, have had a wonderful time and I appreciate everyone's opinion! I am leaving in the morning for another 2 weeks of guiding Mule Deer/Whitetails in eastern Colorado, be back about December 15. I hope debates like this are a healthy thing, I can't see how it's not. Long live the lion, and lion hunting!!

Thanks,
Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

quote:

One problem with African hunting nowadays…is that (some) hunters increasingly suffer a degree of supermarket shopping mentality, where they expect, sometimes demand success because they've shelled out a lot of money. I understand why they might feel like that but true hunting is true hunting and doesn't come with guarantees of trophy success.

I think this is an important point to a “lion hunting” discussion today. I’ve stated this before following my Dall sheep hunt, that due to the high costs and time constraints associated with many hunts, I think the profile of the client is changing. There are exceptions of course, but on these big-dollar hunts (relative and applicable to most any continent), hunters fall into a few categories. Many are the guys who have the money and not the time (the ones that want to pull the trigger, bag the trophy for their collection, and hop the night flight back home), or the guys who have been “dreaming” but are stretching it financially. [Well, then there is Saeed, who would be the ultimate client!]

It is one thing when you know you can return to hunt a given species, but an entirely different situation when it might be your one any only opportunity. I thought I “had to have” a lion, and fortunately they were somewhat more affordable even 4-5 years ago…but it was a stretch and I was feeling the stress. I shot one, but today, given the costs, and with the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn’t do it again. Nobody “needs” a lion.

I feel the same way about say a bongo, I’d love to have one and experience the jungle, but I know that the hunt would not be enjoyable as I’d be thinking about all the money I spent that I could/should have spent elsewhere, and worry about the disappointment of returning home without one. I’d need to have the attitude that “Hey, if I don’t get one this trip, so what, there’s always the next time”. But at $50K+ and rising, I can’t. So screw it. I like where I am at now, hunting for the pure fun and thrill of the adventure. Perhaps one cannot get here without going thru the process...I don’t know.

Every PH is trained in PH School to tell clients that “You know the hunter who shot the biggest XYZ last season had the greatest attitude.....you know these are the guys who shoot the biggest ones!” and while it may be true, it does little to console a client who has spent his college or retirement savings on a hunt, and faces the prospect of returning home and explaining to the Mrs why he didn’t shoot the XYZ that he had to have. This is the wonderful thing about a buffalo hunt, that while it might be a financial stretch for some guys, at least there is a very high probability that they will get a good one AND have a great experience.

If I were an outfitter I’d be looking for the small percentage of people out there who love to hunt and can afford to go home without, but understand that for the majority of lion hunts - it just ain’t going to be any fun!!! And if I were a mere-mortal lion hunting client, I’d try hard to convince myself that I am paying lots of money to hunt lion, and that shooting one would be like winning the lottery. And if I can’t convince myself of this, I have no business hunting lion.

Sorry for the long post, but after 7 years on the forum and a dozen African hunts, clearly I have entered the Bill Stewart stage where you either “write a book” - or post cute little one-liners followed by a smiley face.

quote:

Ledvm - In all seriousness, please come by my booth at DSC or SCI, I actually do want to buy you a drink.

Aaron,
Thankyou for the invite and I certainly will at one or the other. Good huntin'!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

One problem with African hunting nowadays…is that (some) hunters increasingly suffer a degree of supermarket shopping mentality, where they expect, sometimes demand success because they've shelled out a lot of money. I understand why they might feel like that but true hunting is true hunting and doesn't come with guarantees of trophy success.

I think this is an important point to a “lion hunting” discussion today. I’ve stated this before following my Dall sheep hunt, that due to the high costs and time constraints associated with many hunts, I think the profile of the client is changing. There are exceptions of course, but on these big-dollar hunts (relative and applicable to most any continent), hunters fall into a few categories. Many are the guys who have the money and not the time (the ones that want to pull the trigger, bag the trophy for their collection, and hop the night flight back home), or the guys who have been “dreaming” but are stretching it financially. [Well, then there is Saeed, who would be the ultimate client!]

It is one thing when you know you can return to hunt a given species, but an entirely different situation when it might be your one any only opportunity. I thought I “had to have” a lion, and fortunately they were somewhat more affordable even 4-5 years ago…but it was a stretch and I was feeling the stress. I shot one, but today, given the costs, and with the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn’t do it again. Nobody “needs” a lion.

I feel the same way about say a bongo, I’d love to have one and experience the jungle, but I know that the hunt would not be enjoyable as I’d be thinking about all the money I spent that I could/should have spent elsewhere, and worry about the disappointment of returning home without one. I’d need to have the attitude that “Hey, if I don’t get one this trip, so what, there’s always the next time”. But at $50K+ and rising, I can’t. So screw it. I like where I am at now, hunting for the pure fun and thrill of the adventure. Perhaps one cannot get here without going thru the process...I don’t know.

Every PH is trained in PH School to tell clients that “You know the hunter who shot the biggest XYZ last season had the greatest attitude.....you know these are the guys who shoot the biggest ones!” and while it may be true, it does little to console a client who has spent his college or retirement savings on a hunt, and faces the prospect of returning home and explaining to the Mrs why he didn’t shoot the XYZ that he had to have. This is the wonderful thing about a buffalo hunt, that while it might be a financial stretch for some guys, at least there is a very high probability that they will get a good one AND have a great experience.

If I were an outfitter I’d be looking for the small percentage of people out there who love to hunt and can afford to go home without, but understand that for the majority of lion hunts - it just ain’t going to be any fun!!! And if I were a mere-mortal lion hunting client, I’d try hard to convince myself that I am paying lots of money to hunt lion, and that shooting one would be like winning the lottery. And if I can’t convince myself of this, I have no business hunting lion.

Sorry for the long post, but after 7 years on the forum and a dozen African hunts, clearly I have entered the Bill Stewart stage where you either “write a book” - or post cute little one-liners followed by a smiley face.

Bill, I may have never said this, but I respect your opinion a lot. And I completely agree with you. I have money budgeted for other 21 day/lion hunts, but frankly, I am not sure when I will go. My trophy room is already crammed. We will someday build a house on our land in Colorado, but having just finished building one, I have no desire to do that right now. So what I mount will be extremely limited. So if I am not going to mount another lion/leopard/eland/buffalo (well, okay, I have a buff hunt booked) why spend the boatloads of money? Why not go one two or three hunts in North America and just enjoy the hunt? Unlike others on this board, I enjoy North American hunting tremendously. I do enjoy the fact that success is never guaranteed, and there is certainly a lot less hand-holding.

As for your comment about the Mrs, I will never forget what Ms AZWriter said when I was going to book my first lion hunt. I said, "What if I don't get one?" (Meaning, that is a lot of money.) I will never forget what she said: "Well, you just go again!"

I have two rules when it comes to booking hunts:

1. Never book a hunt you can only do once in your lifetime. If you don't shoot the animals you are after or the experience is disappointing, you can't go back and make it better. And if it exceeds your wildest dreams? Well, you can't go back. How bad is that?
2. Never book a hunt where you will wish you didn't do it if you don't get what you after. Notice I didn't say "disappointed," but rather "wish you didn't do it." I broke that rule for myself on my last safari, but at the time I didn't realize it. The trouble with cat hunting today is that even if you get a good daily rate, the TFs for bait are going to make it an expensive hunt no matter what. In retrospect, not getting any of the big three would have been tremendously disappointing; perhpas I would have wished I would have not done it. But I reasoned that I would get at least one of the marquis animals and getting any two of three (leopard/lion/elephant) would be a tremendously successful hunt. Getting all three would be a dream. And it was.

I'm guessing none of them are 6+ years old.

1. Looks like a younger lion that got in a bad fight. Arround 4 years.

2. 5-5.5YO

3. 4.5-5.5

4. 4-4.5

5. 5.5-6

6. 5.5-6

Let's see what the damage is! Last time we played this game I didn't do so well, so we'll see if I've improved.

Brett

Brett - I decided to check this one more time, before I leave town for 2 weeks. I think even experienced hunters/ph's etc, will always have a problem with this little exercise, especially in the field. All lions are different, even ones that come from the same region. Just like people, deer, elk, etc, etc. Some grow big, some not so much, some grows big manes, some not so much, nose coloration varies, on and on. I think most importantly is to use experience and knowledge gained from both research and actually field hunting experience, then use that info to make the best judgment call you can. Regardless of the actual age of these lions, only 2 of them I would shoot. Even if #1 is 7 - 9, which I think he is, I wouldn't shoot him, just don't like him. Hope to see you at DSC or SCI. You, ledvm and I can all share some cocktails and you two intellectuals can continue to educate my dumbass.

I do have a question for Bwanamich that I did not ask regarding the lions in the pics. Are they WILD lions, and if so, how do you really know the actual ages of the cats. Is it a factual known age, or an estimate for each lion?

Aaron

I wonder if the canned lion farmers are going to start "scarring up" there lions to give them a more authentic "wild" look?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Brett - I decided to check this one more time, before I leave town for 2 weeks. I think even experienced hunters/ph's etc, will always have a problem with this little exercise, especially in the field. All lions are different, even ones that come from the same region. Just like people, deer, elk, etc, etc. Some grow big, some not so much, some grows big manes, some not so much, nose coloration varies, on and on. I think most importantly is to use experience and knowledge gained from both research and actually field hunting experience, then use that info to make the best judgment call you can. Regardless of the actual age of these lions, only 2 of them I would shoot. Even if #1 is 7 - 9, which I think he is, I wouldn't shoot him, just don't like him. Hope to see you at DSC or SCI. You, ledvm and I can all share some cocktails and you two intellectuals can continue to educate my dumbass.

Good luck on your hunts. I will be at SCI Friday and Saturday, so we will definitely have a few. I'm with you though. The last two would be awefully hard to pass up! I'd much rather go for some good old fashion hunting BSing though!

Brett

1) - 4 yrs 4 mth
2) - 3 yrs 9 mth
3) - 4 yrs 5 mth
4) - 4 yrs 3 mth
5) - 4 yrs 11 mth
6) - 5 yrs

These lions were part of a study group whereby the researchers knew the month (sometimes the week) they were born. They are all wild lions (from Tz Parks)

One of the things TGT PHs noticed very early on in this learning process - when the TGT lion program was started - was that most of them consistantly over-estimated the ages of lions by an average of 1.5 to 2.5 yrs. The biggest variances occured in estimating lions that were between 5 and 6! Being able to study skulls and teeth and pulp x-ray post-mortem and looking at dozens of photos of the dead lion's physical features before skinning and being able to discuss and analyze this info amongst themselves and with scientists and researchers has greatly reduced the "discrepancy" in aging amongst them to often within 6 months. This consistancy amongs the "decision-makers" in the field has been extremely valuable to the program.

Ledvm, i've been discussing with WCS and some reaserchers to come up with a global database of known aged lions (from research groups, zoos, private collections, etc)showing each one's pulp cavity x-ray, nose pigmentation, mane development, physical features, etc. I think the data collected would be incredibly valuable after scientific analysis! What is your thoughts on the pulp cavity of dead lions over time, does it change?

I'm quite surprised I got the age from these "not bad" other than the first one with the worn body.

quote:

What is your thoughts on the pulp cavity of dead lions over time, does it change?

Bwanamich,
I would be very suprised if the pulp cavity diameter changed on dead teeth over time esp. on the little upper PM2. I have some fairly aged x-rays on file. I possibley could get the teeth back for follow-up xrays to validate this.

Bwana Mich,

I did much better this time! I still think I'll keep my day job, but if TGT needs my services let me know!!!! I'm on call!

Brett

The first lion fooled me at first. That angle made me age him as older at first. When I went back and looked with the known ages...I can clearly see how I erred. Good example of how practice is a good thing when you have objective evidence to back-up the true age.