A few more thoughts:

- The weight, size of body, skull measurements cannot be used to determine if a male lion is 5 or 6 or 8 years old! A male lion will have reached its full body size, skull size, etc by age 4.5. Weight in particular is meaningless for this discussion if you consider that in a meal - such as at a bait site - a male can consume 50 -60lbs of meat in a night. That's the difference between an averagely sized lion of 480lbs and a "big' lion of 530lbs!!
- Not everyone is aware that within +-30 minutes of death, the pigmentation on a lions nose will darken uniformly and can therefore appear "black".
- Mane IS an important sign of determining age as this will often keep growing and developing markedly until around 6 and thereafter may "stop" growing (other than re-growth where mane hair was lost, etc) or develop so gradually that change is not always easily evident. That is why i consider it a very important aspect as one can clearly see if a mane is still developing/growing or not, especially around the head and shoulders area. With a bit of time, i can try and dig out some pictures to highlight this scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I can't exactly age a lion on the paw, but I guarantee you I can LOOK at a lion in the field and tell you whether or not he's old and mature enough to be shot.

What age is this in your opinion and why? "...Old and mature enough to be shot"

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
A guess that I say is better left to experienced PH's who hunt the areas and the real world much more than the scientist who swoops in for a few weeks or a few months, then proceeds to tell all about all he knows.

How many such professionals do you think there are actively guiding clients to shoot lions on the African continent? And would you say they are in the majority or minority?

If the latter, what do you think the majority of professionals are doing to the lion populations they are hunting? Without seeing a survey on this but simply looking at all the photos of lion trophies on the web, company brochures, forums, SCI et alia, what I see is the blatant shooting of lions that SHOULD NOT have been shot by a professional. And I would add that I wouldn't be suprised if the main reason for this was to make the client "happy" that he spent his $$ and came home "successful".

quote:

ledvm - I guess the scientists that I spoke with, and the one I have spent time with in the field, the ones that ACTUALLY studying lions, must be wrong?

I gave a bunch of scenarios here, all of which you have completely ignored, except to tell me that science can be translated by the average lay person into practical field application. The Botswana PH I mentioned didn't have a clue how they expected him to know the age of the lions in the field, neither did they, thus they did away with the penalties.

I am trying to bow out of this, I promise but...2 things here bother me.

1) I am involved with some of the lion research. I am NOT EVEN CLOSE TO AN AUTHORITY. I want to say that clearly. But the ones I am involved with don't share your feelings. They mirror mine or should I say I am just conveying what they have told me. Yep...the ones actually working with the lions.

2) If a PH told me what you quoted above well...

A couple of thoughts:

Bwanamich -

As for weight, I note that the approximately 4 year old lion that I shot - regrettably before the 6 year rule was widely appreciated or applied - was considerably heavier than the 9-10 year old that I killed a few years later.

I believe that the younger one's greater weight was a function of his steady diet of Cape buffalo.

As for head shape/configuration, an older male - say 8 as compared with 5 - will often appear to have a wider "face" and slacker jaw. That was certainly true of my lions, and is consistent with many others I have seen.

Packer's studies and the illustrations in his book demonstrate this well.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
So please tell us, how old are all of the lions in the pics?

Just my opinion ok?
# 1 , 2, 3 and 4 are 6 or older (though #4's mane is still developing)
# 5 is under 6
# 6 is 6 or over
#7 difficult picture to judge but seems ok
#8 Kilombero lion can't comment as the picture is too small

Remember, we only need to determine if it is 6 or older or under 6 as the rest is surplus. Due to SCIENCE

quote:

You've been studying and aging so many teeth from your PH friends, obviously comparing them with photos, etc. So you should have no trouble then telling all of us just how old all the lions are in the pics I have put up??

Nope...that is why I did not comment on the age. I try to comment on things that I know. I just x-ray the teeth and measure the pulp cavity for them. But I do do folks competent enough to say whether or not a lion-on-the-paw is 6 or above with 80-90% accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
A couple of thoughts:

Bwanamich -

As for weight, I note that the approximately 4 year old lion that I shot - regrettably before the 6 year rule was widely appreciated or applied - was considerably heavier than the 9-10 year old that I killed a few years later.

I believe that the younger one's greater weight was a function of his steady diet of Cape buffalo.

As for head shape/configuration, an older male - say 8 as compared with 5 - will often appear to have a wider "face" and slacker jaw. That was certainly true of my lions, and is consistent with many others I have seen.

Packer's studies and the illustrations in his book demonstrate this well.

- I can see how an old lion 8+ or 10+ yrs old weighs less as at advanced ages, they do deteriorate in condition. My point was that weight can't reliably be used to estimate age.
- I have yet to see a clearly distinguishable and CONSISTANT variance in skull size that correlates with age. In fact i have seen regular cases where the older lion had a smaller skull!

quote:

So please tell us, how old are all of the lions in the pics? Once you provide the ages, please also provide the science behind how you came to such conclusions, and then we will all know how to properly age a lion, in the wild, on the paw, and we can all put an end to this debate.

Please send me the one of the 2nd upper premolars on each of them and I will be happy to give you a scientifically based estimate.

Sorry guys, Chanpions League on TV

Bwanamich - Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Good thing though, we both are arguing over the same common goal, just different ways to get there and that's certainly not a bad thing. I do value your opinion as you have practical knowledge and field experience, even though it differs from my own. The only thing is, I have given example after example, scenario and scenario, and picture after picture. Not once has anyone on the other side of the fence been able to accurately evaluate any of those scenarios, examples or pictures. Not only can't they, but they have avoided it all together, because they ALL know it can't be done! See my last post, I am not a scientist, or a ph, I cannot tell you exactly how old any of the males are that I have shot. But because of 15 years of lion hunting experience, I can tell you for sure, they were mature and old enough to shoot!

You ask about your baiting scenario and if I agree, the answer is yes and no! If the pride male is several miles away from his pride, as is often the case. Then he stumbles upon your bait, and decides to sit there for a few days eating all by himself, which absolutely does happen, he gets shot, then what?? Secondly, try be the PH in most cases where a single, big maned male shows up on bait, the client is in the blind 50 yards away, the one that paid $70,000.00 to shot a lion and then he hears, wait don't shoot! We need to sit here for a couple of days and make sure his pride doesn't show up! Good luck with that!!!!

Fact is, a million different scenarios can be played out here, but TZ is talking about implementing hard and fast laws that blankets everything, when only the guys in the field will have to determine what to do, and possibly pay the consequences. That's the whole basis for my argument, not all the other things quite frankly that we are all disputing.

Brett - Do you know for sure that ALL the guys in and around TGT and other areas are not already on a self-imposed lion program? You state it as fact, but fact is I know one of the TGT neighbors fairly well. He and I had long talks about his areas as I was thinking seriously about leasing them myself. Hell, he was more concerned about the lion harvest than I was! In all the areas I have hunted lion, exclusive of ONE, the PH's have been ultra concerned about the off-take of lion. Very particular about what is shot, when, where, etc. But I hear so much mention of rogue outfitters, guys shooting young lions, etc, etc. Now, I'm not saying it don't happen, but maybe I just deal with a better crowd of PH's than some others!!

I think if you leave it to guys like Graeme, the real experts in their areas, and then have the TZ govt impose individual quotas that are specific to each and every concession, not some blanket formula that says everyone gets 4 lion, good luck!!! That could be done with joint cooperation between the outfitter/PH, the TZ government, and scientists that HAVE SOME ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IN THAT AREA. Then we could eliminate ALL this other arbitrary, im-practical crap. PH's will feel comfortable, clients the same, and each concession could have it's own quota, one deemed appropriate by all parties involved. If places like TGT's have good lion populations, and they are doing a good job then great, maybe 4 lions per year, per area works for them. But places like where I hunted in the Kilombero last September certainly DO NOT need 4 lions per year on quota. You don't need a study, you don't need science, or tooth x-rays to know this. All you need is a fair bit of lion hunting experience, and then a couple weeks in the area and any "Average Joe" like me could tell you that a reduced quota is certainly something this Kilombero area needs. Now how tough was that?????

Aaron Neilson

Aaron with all due respect...If I would have followed your logic in life...I would have skipped vet school and my surgery residency and just gone right out and hung up my shingle as a board certified equine surgeon.

I really want to just HELP and keep lion hunting alive for years to come! But I think the way to do it is through science...sorry!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
A guess that I say is better left to experienced PH's who hunt the areas and the real world much more than the scientist who swoops in for a few weeks or a few months, then proceeds to tell all about all he knows.

How many such professionals do you think there are actively guiding clients to shoot lions on the African continent? And would you say they are in the majority or minority?

If the latter, what do you think the majority of professionals are doing to the lion populations they are hunting? Without seeing a survey on this but simply looking at all the photos of lion trophies on the web, company brochures, forums, SCI et alia, what I see is the blatant shooting of lions that SHOULD NOT have been shot by a professional. And I would add that I wouldn't be suprised if the main reason for this was to make the client "happy" that he spent his $$ and came home "successful".

One more point I forgot to add..............
If we could stop the killing of 2 and 3 year old lions being taken - which we all agree is very easy to do and identify post mortem, we would cut the number of lions taken annually by close to 50%!

these obvious offenders are who the penalties should be directed at.

ledvm - Are you kidding me??? Isn't that going against your entire point?? Thought you have been telling me how all of your scientific expertise will be useful for judging wild lions, that are ALIVE!! Well, you have all this scientific experience, teeth from lots of other lions, so giving the age of my lions shouldn't be a problem for you?? Not to mention your statement really says it ALL, you will give me an "ESTIMATE". All this bickering back and forth and at the end of the day all you science guys can only give an "estimate", but yet you are all for imposing a law that adheres to strict age requirements and penalties if not followed. Heck man, I can assure you I would feel much more comfortable with the estimate of a PROFESSIONAL in his back yard under hunting conditions, than that of an arbitrary science experiment. Fact is, I would have 100% more confidence in my own ability to assess the lion in front of me than some scientist.

Aaron Neilson

Guys - Sorry, so many posts I cannot keep up with them all.

Bottom line is I agree with the fact that something needs to be done, but I DO NOT think science is the only answer and I have given examples why.

Ledvm - I appreciate your position as well, and I know that regardless of our differences, we both want the same outcome. So apologies if anything I said got out of line.

Aaron Neilson

Bwanamich - You state that if we stopped killing 2-3 yr old lions that we would save 50% of the lions, now that is disturbing. Is that a TZ number??? Now that is stuff we both totally agree upon, and we both know that identifying an obviously young 2-3 year old is very easy! The PH should lose his license over that, no questions asked.

Talking to Paula about the lions taken from Zambia over the last 2-3 years, based on her "science". She feels they are doing a good job overall and that the average lion shot is 5.5 years of age. So I don't think the 2-3 yr old lion shooting problem is everywhere. It does seem to happen more often in TZ than other places from my observations, what do you think??

Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Sorry guys, Chanpions League on TV

Half time

Aaron, pls do not take the recent press reports about the Tz penalties for shooting an under age lion too seriously! They are NOT correct as reported as there has been no resolution on the details nor has there been any meeting to decide this. I would hope that when this discussion takes place here in TZ, common sense will prevail

quote:

Thought you have been telling me how all of your scientific expertise will be useful for judging wild lions, that are ALIVE!!

Yes sir!!! For the PH's it is.

quote:

ALL, you will give me an "ESTIMATE".

A very accurate estimate +/- a year.

I agree with Aaron insofar as first time offenders shouldn't lose there PH license and livelihoods. But if you continue to repeat the error then your judgement would have to be considered suspect. We also do not want to lose our most experienced PH's so mistakes should be allowed, say one mistake for every 10 or 15 lions.

To be a lion PH you will have to figure this out. We have to side with science because we lose the other arguements.

Besides normal science wants the best most accurate answer. The hunting industry can be a huge contributor in that regard. Don't fight the scientist but help them figure this out so we can educate all the PH's how to do this.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Talking to Paula about the lions taken from Zambia over the last 2-3 years, based on her "science". She feels they are doing a good job overall and that the average lion shot is 5.5 years of age. So I don't think the 2-3 yr old lion shooting problem is everywhere. Aaron

That is an amazing stat and look forward to discussing this with her given the opportunity. Are you sure this is not just in her focus "study area" but country wide? If so, that is where I would book my lion hunt! Do you know total average offtake per year?

Bwanamich - No, don't know total off take per year. but will ask her for that. But the average age stat is what she told me and I do believe that was country wide as I know she has most of the PH's in both the Kafue and the Luangwa sending her samples, pics, etc. But to be sure, I will ask her again to varify that. Her latest email said she would be unavailable until after Dec 1st.

All differences aside...I am glad to see so many passionate folks concerned about lion conservation!!!

Wish the Black Rhino had the same!

group hug everyone

quote:

group hug everyone

How about just a beer at DSC!

I like the Beer idea better!!

Ok guys, go to the link below. Now what????

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/2121072121

Aaron

I'll take a beer at SCI!!! Anyone???

Brett

quote:

Brett - Do you know for sure that ALL the guys in and around TGT and other areas are not already on a self-imposed lion program? You state it as fact, but fact is I know one of the TGT neighbors fairly well. He and I had long talks about his areas as I was thinking seriously about leasing them myself. Hell, he was more concerned about the lion harvest than I was! In all the areas I have hunted lion, exclusive of ONE, the PH's have been ultra concerned about the off-take of lion. Very particular about what is shot, when, where, etc. But I hear so much mention of rogue outfitters, guys shooting young lions, etc, etc. Now, I'm not saying it don't happen, but maybe I just deal with a better crowd of PH's than some others!!

If I stated it that way then I shouldn't have. There are others that do a good job, but the fact remains that many lions TGT passes up get shot on neighboring concessions. If everyone is on board those lions don't get shot. I think you do deal with a better crowd and that makes a big difference. There are some not so great ones out there. I think we (you, Bwana Mich, ledvm, and I) have been speaking across points to some degree on this one. We agree more than we disagree for sure. I think we (Bwana Mich, ledvm, and myself) are willing to deal with and think its acceptable to have some collateral damage with the 6 year rule to make it work. As you stated you can't always know if a male is in a pride with dependant cubs. The cleint and their PH do their best and make the best decision they can. And if a few lions get shot that perhaps weren't ideal to take then so be it. But at least people won't be knowingly taking even mature/old males out of prides with dependant cubs. The other issue I see cropping up here is regional variation. I think everyone can agree that regional variation occurs all over the place. That doesn't mean we throw all the science and research out the window just because it was conducted in northern Tanzania. Aply it where you can and where you can't get more research in those areas. I just don't believe that Patty Curtis can't age lions in the Seleus, Ivan Carter can't age lions in the valley, Johan Calitz/Jeff Rann can't age lions in the Chobe, or johnny Du Ploy can't age lions in the Luangwa just because they "vary". These are highly skilled and experienced professionals. They know these areas and have seen hundreds or thousands of lions there to help understand what the "right" male looks like. That's what they've done for a long time and what they get paid to do. If they make a few mistakes that's understandable and so be it, but we need to start somewhere.

Brett

Good thing I have zero interest in lion hunting.. Sounds like a pain in the ass all the way 'round.. Guys with their livelihood and perverbial nuts on the chopping block, ridicule from your fellow hunters should you take a pride male or one that isn't on his last leg of life..
Mix that in with the whole penned lion fiasco and it just seems like it's more trouble than it'd be worth these days.

Give me a crusty buffalo and a surpuls tuskless tag all day, everyday compared to this presistant AR lion rant. But to each his own!

Aaron, you are a passionate guy when it comes to this. I like that in folks.. Not my cup fo tea, but you are one of the guys who has a "leg to stand on" in these types of disscussions on here. Haven't known anyone (as a client) to take that many cats in this day and age and as we all know, experience speaks volumes.. Congrats on the wonderful trophies.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
Good thing I have zero interest in lion hunting.. Sounds like a pain in the ass all the way 'round.. Guys with their livelihood and perverbial nuts on the chopping block, ridicule from your fellow hunters should you take a pride male or one that isn't on his last leg of life..
Mix that in with the whole penned lion fiasco and it just seems like it's more trouble than it'd be worth these days.

Give me a crusty buffalo and a surpuls tuskless tag all day, everyday compared to this presistant AR lion rant. But to each his own!

Aaron, you are a passionate guy when it comes to this. I like that in folks.. Not my cup fo tea, but you are one of the guys who has a "leg to stand on" in these types of disscussions on here. Haven't known anyone (as a client) to take that many cats in this day and age and as we all know, experience speaks volumes.. Congrats on the wonderful trophies.

Well said ScottyBoy. I have shot a whopping one lion (but I did pass on more) which is probably one more than some of the posters here. But I have to tell you, this "elite" kind of attitude, esp with TGT, makes me want to puke. I ran into one hunter on a TGT hunt at the border of TGT and the one I was hunting. Guy was drinking beer in the middle of the day. So much for ethics.

There is a lot of good hunting in the world to be had without hunting lions. Glad I did it, but can't say I have any desire to emulate Aaron.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
But I have to tell you, this "elite" kind of attitude, esp with TGT, makes me want to puke.

Better go find a trash can. I don't think anyone is bowing down to the tower of TGT. They' re just a good example of it being done when people say it CAN'T be done. It may be difficult, but it CAN be done with a reasonable degree of accuracy and they've been doing it for years now. They aren't the only ones. There are others with sound lion management policies, but they are certainly in the forefront.

Brett

PS. No one here is an "elitest". We're all interested in the continuation of lion hunting in a responsible manner that takes into account lion conservation. Everyone agrees that shooting young lions or lions with prides holding dependant young is bad for lions. We just don't agree on how to get it done. If you think that's elitist or don't like it find a trash can, grow thicker skin, or find another thread to read.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Guy was drinking beer in the middle of the day. So much for ethics.

Say it ain't so? WTF? Can you clarify if it was the PH or client drinking so we can report them to their parents......

You label TGT as elitist so let me ask you this, have you ever taken the time to meet and talk to someone at TGT? Or is this what your PH said about them?

I certainly wouldn't call the TGTS guys elitist at all. Every time I've met them to visited their base and/or their bar in the base in Arusha, I've always been made very welcome indeed. Hell, it's even hard to buy your own beer in the bar!

Every time I've called one of their guys for a bit of assistance such as replacement (for lost) ammo or the odd bottle of whisky to accommodate a clients unexpected thirst or information on something, they've always been extremely accommodating, even down to telling me 'ah, just pay me when you see me'

If anything, I'd say there's a degree of the green eyed monster, where some guys in the industry bad mouth them because of jealousy of the quality of their operation.

Mind you, I'd like 'em even more if they'd let me have a copy of their Lion study!

One more point I forgot to add..............
If we could stop the killing of 2 and 3 year old lions being taken - which we all agree is very easy to do and identify post mortem, we would cut the number of lions taken annually by close to 50%!

these obvious offenders are who the penalties should be directed at.[/QUOTE]

That is 100% correct. Killing of blatantly young lions must stop. Big fines for Ph's over a small age discrepancy will be mistake.

Here is the definition of elite:

"the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons"

and here is one for elitism:

"consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group"

You don't think that is how TGT portrays itself? They are absolutely the most selective in terms of harvest if you read this thread and others.

But I use the term in this manner: they apparently believe, due in no small part to Bwanamitch, that it is okay for some guy to throw down over 100K and have a 20 percent chance of killing a lion. The hunter that will do that is "elite" in any dictionaly. If that is the future of lion hunting, then I am done. That just doesn't turn my crank.

The client, the one who shoots the most often, was the guy drinking a beer. Frankly, while I am verging on alcoholism, I do not ever hunt with anyone who is drinking alcohol. And any one who cared about the safety of others wouldn't do it either.

Bwanamitch, my opinion of TGT has been created almost entirely by you and my short one hour "want a beer?" meeting at the border of Kigosi/Moyowosi (sp?). In short, in your opinion, nobody does it better.

quote:

I just don't believe that Patty Curtis can't age lions in the Seleus, Ivan Carter can't age lions in the valley, Johan Calitz/Jeff Rann can't age lions in the Chobe, or johnny Du Ploy can't age lions in the Luangwa just because they "vary". These are highly skilled and experienced professionals. They know these areas and have seen hundreds or thousands of lions there to help understand what the "right" male looks like. That's what they've done for a long time and what they get paid to do. If they make a few mistakes that's understandable and so be it, but we need to start somewhere.

Brett - Don't look now but you are making my point for me. Leave it to the pros, in their own areas, and ONLY implement fines or penalties for the OBVIOUSLY young lions. You guys keep talking about science, but every time it goes back to an opinion, a guess, about the age of the lions. Just as in the pics I posted, ledvm wouldn't hazard a guess, and Bwanamich gave him OPINION, as he clearly stated. Granted an educated opinion from a man with loads of experience. But if you noticed, at the beginning of this thread he and I gave the same guess as to the approximate age of the lion in the pic. His from education, and experience, mine from experience. Plus, I have the lions in the pics to look at up-close and personal. I think Bwanamich did a pretty good job at estimating the ages of those lions as well. I pretty much agree with his estimations.

So, let me try and get my exact point across so there is NO MIS-UNDERSTANDINGS ABOUT MY POINT OF VIEW. I am ALL FOR science and it's ability to help educate PH's and clients as it comes to trying to ESTIMATE the age of wild lions, and make a harvest selection based on the science used.

WHAT I AM AGAINST IS, A HARD AND FAST LAW (AGE LIMIT) THAT WILL BE A HUGE PENALTY TO THE PH, THE OUTFITTER AND THE CLIENT. WHEN THAT LAW (AGE LIMIT) CANNOT BE PROVED BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT TO BE A FACT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That I think is the point of mine that all you science guys just aren't listening to. No matter what, no matter how much science, it's still going to be an educated, scientific, ESTIMATE. Ledvm said that, Bwanamich said that, and I'm saying that too! And I think the potential consequences to the parties involved, if such a law was imposed, is too harsh when its all based on educated, scientific ESTIMATES in the first place.

Like I said before, 2+2 = 4, that is a fact, an indisputable fact. Aging wild lions will never be fact, so the laws, rules or regulations imposed should follow along guidelines, but NOT hard and fast laws that are disputable in the first place.

AnotherAZWriter,

Actually, I hope you won't mind my pointing out that the term you used was elitist and the definition of that (from Princeton http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=elitist) is: someone who believes in rule by an elite group.

Which implies that you believe the company and it's staff feel they have the right to dictate to others, or put more plainly, believe they're something special and everyone else is below them. That simply isn't the case. The company and it's staff are extremely helpful and welcoming to any reputable person that approaches them for something/anything.

They do however have very high standards, esp when it comes to Lions, but it's their company, their area and surely their perogative to set whatever standards they want to and if someone disagrees with those standards, I'm sure they're welcome to go elsewhere.

As I've said before, one of the challenges of being a professional, Professional Hunter is being able to resist pressure from a client to take what might be considered an inappropriate animal. That isn't being elitist, it's being professional and caring for the long term future of the area and it's populations.

The client may be there for a few weeks but the PH, company, area and game will be there for considerably longer..... as long as everything is managed correctly.

Aaron,

I agree with pretty much everything you say, but you should try not to get upset about the law that penalises the PH for an inappropriate trophy. The TZ game laws have been like that for many years for several species regarding size/weight and all species regarding sex (depending on which act is applied). The PHs live with it and the good ones rarely, if ever make a mistake.

It might be a pain in the arse but it sure as hell ain't gonna change!

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Here is the definition of elite:

"the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons"

and here is one for elitism:

"consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group"

You don't think that is how TGT portrays itself? They are absolutely the most selective in terms of harvest if you read this thread and others.

But I use the term in this manner: they apparently believe, due in no small part to Bwanamitch, that it is okay for some guy to throw down over 100K and have a 20 percent chance of killing a lion. The hunter that will do that is "elite" in any dictionaly. If that is the future of lion hunting, then I am done. That just doesn't turn my crank.

The client, the one who shoots the most often, was the guy drinking a beer. Frankly, while I am verging on alcoholism, I do not ever hunt with anyone who is drinking alcohol. And any one who cared about the safety of others wouldn't do it either.

Bwanamitch, my opinion of TGT has been created almost entirely by you and my short one hour "want a beer?" meeting at the border of Kigosi/Moyowosi (sp?). In short, in your opinion, nobody does it better.

AtoZ,
Hey, no hard feelings. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I'm not going to try to change your mind.

Sorry for going way "off-topic" everyone.

Come on, you science guys gotta admit. The link below is pretty funny!!!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/4631072121

Aaron,
I mentioned this before:
You are making your point as if someone has enacted OR supported those laws. There is NO such law as you describe in place in Tz as far as I know. I doubt at all that it would be ever suggested to that extreme. The process will be one of discussion between the Wildlife Division, the hunters' association, the Outfitter's Association and hopefully some reputable scientists/researchers. By the way, can you forward me the contact of that "expert" from the Hwange Nat Park pls?