quote:

Originally posted by txsouthpaw:
And do you wonder why the guy has 13045 posts? Yes, he seems to have the answers to most everything. After all he is an attorney and obviously everyone must accept that his wisdom and expertise should not be questioned. And yes, I've hunted with Martin Pieters before, and no, based upon the posts from the parties involved, I would never hunt with Martin again.

That is pretty damning then.

If you have hunted with Martin before, and had a good hunt, why would you not hunt with him again??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

That is pretty damning then.

If you have hunted with Martin before, and had a good hunt, why would you not hunt with him again??

I have hunted with Martin three times in the Omay and have always been treated more than fairly. I would and more than likely will hunt with Martin in the Omay again.

I would never book a hunt with Martin or any other operator in a country they do not operate in. I never understood that concept.

Same here. Why book with an out of country outfitter when you can go direct to the source?

Well,

I have hunted with the same PH. in 3 countries.

Never had a problem, and cannot ever see one.

As I am still hunting with him and his family.

But, I suppose I am in a sort of unique position, having been hunting with them since 1982.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well,

I have hunted with the same PH. in 3 countries .

Never had a problem, and cannot ever see one.

As I am still hunting with him and his family.

But, I suppose I am in a sort of unique position, having been hunting with them since 1982.

I believe the OP thought he was to hunt with MP as well. If I'm incorrect I'm sure there's a poster here that will point that out.

Yes, I was to hunt with Martin.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well,

I have hunted with the same PH. in 3 countries.

Never had a problem, and cannot ever see one.

As I am still hunting with him and his family.

But, I suppose I am in a sort of unique position, having been hunting with them since 1982.

He and his family are some of the very best in Africa though so you made a helluva good choice!

Quote:

This thread has about 550 posts and 28,000 views. Those numbers alone should determine if the thread is valid or not. It it was not important, it would died long ago.
Cal

Cal, it's like eating Lays Potato Chips or looking at a car accident while driving. Everyone has a morbid curiosity!

Chris and/or Mike, did one or both of you rebook with MP for an upcoming hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike:
I've noticed, as Frostbit also said, a change in your posts the past couple of years. Why the change to an almost combative stance--it seems no one can post to your pleasure. As to gawking at a train wreck, would you put yourself in that category after 50+ posts on my thread about contracts?
Just wondering.
Cal

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tell you what, if you have answers to the questions raised for the OP and MP in the posts above, go ahead and post those answers since you apparently have a level of understanding of and insight into the facts that transcends others here.

Feathers ruffled I see.

No I don't have those answers anymore than you have tangible proof of the OP's motive. That's my point.

If you were considering a hunt with MP before this thread would you change your vetting process or it's intensity/focus?

This is a hunting forum. It's not supposed to be a false narrative of nothing but positive rainbows and unicorns.

I appreciate posters bringing information here, both positive and negative. I don't take the positive with any greater face value than I take the negative. I simply use it as a base for verification to the best of my ability.

Specifically in this thread MP does not look to have defended himself very well against accusations, valid or not, and that combined with some past negative threads specifically about MP, would give me pause to book. Even for a hunt with his outfit in Zimbabwe and utilizing his PH which the OP mentioned in a positive light that you seem to want to ignore.

Your mileage may vary.

Jim

Great post!!

quote:

Originally posted by txsouthpaw:
And do you wonder why the guy has 13045 posts? Yes, he seems to have the answers to most everything. After all he is an attorney and obviously everyone must accept that his wisdom and expertise should not be questioned. And yes, I've hunted with Martin Pieters before, and no, based upon the posts from the parties involved, I would never hunt with Martin again.

That pretty much is a conclusion to the conversation. If folks who know him say this, it is good reason to try someone else.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
.

What does that mean?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
.

What does that mean?

. . . that it is time for me to poke a stick in their eye again.

Something that experience has finally hammered into my head is to give oneself an offramp in any contract .. a probationary period, a trial phase, a contingency plan. Then at the first sign of trouble, cut your losses and run. Otherwise it just gets worse from there. If you stick around for the duration, it's going to be very hard to get a refund, as you are now into degrees of performance as opposed failure to perform. And if you tell the PH "take me back to the airport right now" he is likely to remedy whatever the problem may be; or make some compromise that you can get in writing.

A second lesson that took even more hammering was not to give anyone credit for past performance. Just because the last deal went OK does not mean this one will go great. I worked with a PH in Zim for several years. He screwed me and my client despite that. Familiarity, sadly, breeds contempt.

So in the context of a safari, what does this mean? Unfortunately, a hunt cannot really be split into phases, unless it's a very long one, or one involving two areas. So that leaves putting something in writing that says if the outfitter is in breach, the hunter has the right to withdraw and receive a full refund of any and all monies paid. Even better if the deposit is held by a third party (eg agent).

You will never get a hunting operator to guarantee success. But that is why there is a daily rate and a separate trophy fee. With this in mind, never pay the trophy fee up front. If the operator demands it, find a new operator. This is also why part of the payment is a tip. If the hunt is crappy, don't pay the tip.

Thank you, this sounds like great advice.

May be the vultures are having a bash at this.

And we all know where that will lead to.

They might be taking time discussion how much each side gets!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
.

What does that mean?

. . . that it is time for me to poke a stick in their eye again.

+1

Other wise known as being a bitch,,,,

what it means is that

a short term gain

precipitating someone else cleaning up your mess
adsorbing your lack of management

spelled cash flow crisis



can and often results in a long term expence that exceeds the immediate relief you were so desperate to obtain

people that earned enough money to go elephant hunting usually have a good sense of smell

what has it been

about a year now

35902 people taking a quick look see

about 2 bucks each -- quick peekaboo--

divided by a disappointing hunt

bet the brothers would rather have the money back as opposed to all of us watching the rodeo for free

at 2 usd per ticket

Martin might, thinking back, looking back

wished he had given some of it back

if he even could have, back then when it all blew up

Martin seems to say he was taken for a ride by the people the hunt was supposed to be with.

This by itself does not clear him from this sad episode, as the hunt was supposed to be conducted by him.

I wish either Martin or the people in Namibia would say something about this, otherwise it is going to leave a terribly negative taste with anyone looking for a hunt, and avoid both companies.

I just returned from a 15 day hunt with Martin Pieters at the Bubiana Conservency. Got a nice leopard on the morning of day 3. Everything went as planned with no hiccups or issues. I would hunt with him again without reservations.

Another example that causes me to scratch my head. Pieters is a Zim operator and has a good leopard area (Omay). Why does he need to take people to Bubiana, or Namibia for their hunts?

If you want to hunt with Vaughn Fulton in Namibia, book with Vaughn Fulton in Namibia. If you want to hunt Bubiana, book with Tickey Drummond or Collett or one of the other resident PHs or operators.

In fact Saeed, why don't you make it obligatory when operators post a hunt here, to state 1. Who the landowner or concessionaire is; 2. whether there are any relevant government sanctions and if so by which countries (against hunting, or against importing trophies) 4. What the relationship is between the person posting the hunt and the person/outfit that owns the hunting rights in that area (eg agent, primary lessee, sublessee, subquota owner, freelance PH, chancer ... )5. what PH, by name and licensing country, is going to conduct the hunt. 6. what the "returns and refund" policy is.

Failing that, we need a sticky on current govt restrictions and another one on dubious operators.

There are far too many RSA PHs who hunt illegally or on a shady basis in Zim and Moz and I suppose Botswana as well. I was not aware of Zim PHs who play the same game but apparently it goes on as evidenced by this post. And there are now all kinds of restrictions imposed by the US gov't in particular on hunting and importation of trophies.

Russ,

We already have a hard time getting basic details of the hessa nuts posted.

I don't want to make it even more common located.

Interested here here hunters can ask any question they wish to have answers for.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Another example that causes me to scratch my head. Pieters is a Zim operator and has a good leopard area (Omay). Why does he need to take people to Bubiana, or Namibia for their hunts?

If you want to hunt with Vaughn Fulton in Namibia, book with Vaughn Fulton in Namibia. If you want to hunt Bubiana, book with Tickey Drummond or Collett or one of the other resident PHs or operators.

In fact Saeed, why don't you make it obligatory when operators post a hunt here, to state 1. Who the landowner or concessionaire is; 2. whether there are any relevant government sanctions and if so by which countries (against hunting, or against importing trophies) 4. What the relationship is between the person posting the hunt and the person/outfit that owns the hunting rights in that area (eg agent, primary lessee, sublessee, subquota owner, freelance PH, chancer ... )5. what PH, by name and licensing country, is going to conduct the hunt. 6. what the "returns and refund" policy is.

Failing that, we need a sticky on current govt restrictions and another one on dubious operators.

There are far too many RSA PHs who hunt illegally or on a shady basis in Zim and Moz and I suppose Botswana as well. I was not aware of Zim PHs who play the same game but apparently it goes on as evidenced by this post. And there are now all kinds of restrictions imposed by the US gov't in particular on hunting and importation of trophies.

I am glad you didn't mention a TZ PH freelancing in SA!

quote:

Vaughn Fulton in Namibia

what exactly do you know about this fellow

he is not altogether unknown by me

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Another example that causes me to scratch my head. Pieters is a Zim operator and has a good leopard area (Omay). Why does he need to take people to Bubiana, or Namibia for their hunts?

.

I do not believe he has the Omay any longer.

quote:

what exactly do you know about this fellow

Nothing other than he is a licensed PH operating in Namibia for some years; but that's not the point. The OP hunted with Vaughn but booked with hunt through, and was supposed to be guided by, a Zim PH.

This got to be like a three way tug of war.

we have no idea what happened since this was started - it would be nice if the client or Martin Peters update us on this .

The client got well and truly taken for a ride by Martin Peters, and apart from him putting the blame on others, we have seen nothing else.

It could well be true that Martin Peters did get cheated by the people he contracted with, but that does not alter the fact that it was him the client was dealing with, and it is his responsibility to sort it it out.

You can smell this well up wind

don't need to be a blood hound


Folks,
Many of you know me and some don't, there are bound to be some gripes along the line, some of which I know about, others not, unfortunately despite giving my best efforts as an operator, sometimes bad reports arise, some justifiable, others not.

A lot of what Chris has said is true and we tried to resolve it immediately poor to and during the hunt.
There are a lot of missing pieces in Chris's accusation of which I have documentation to prove.
A couple of small facts.
1. I was never going to PH then hunt, I was going to accompany the hunt, that I got denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials presumption that I was going to work was a nightmare, same occurred to Dalton and the 2 cameramen on the way into Namibia.
2. After the hunt, Chris and I discussed some reimbursing, of which we agreed on a figure, but prior to me sending it, he decided a personal attack against me would be better.
3. His brother Mike shot his elephant, and then refused to pay the trophy fee quoted, so I put him straight onto the outfitter to make payment to import his tusks ( my fee was higher perhaps that is one reason ).

Not to justify anything, however, I was sold one area and given another ( paperwork to prove it ).

I would like to go into more detail, however the documents were handed over to my attorney after Chris decided to attack me publicly and at my booth without knowing ALL the details.
I apologise to him as I did many times and had hoped we could have worked it out.
Cheers

martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
.

Posting this and nothing else has made me lose what sympathy I had for the guy. This horse was beat to death. I originally believed the brothers Drazen were wronged. This latest post is a prick move.

On the other hand , Martin used to post using his name and now posts using a fictitious name from Salt Lake City. I am not sure why that has been done . It doesn't look good to me either.

Russ, yours is a great mandatory questions list. Worth repeating. (I fixed the numbering).

quote:

1. Who the landowner or concessionaire is;

2. whether there are any relevant government sanctions and if so by which countries (against hunting, or against importing trophies)

3. What the relationship is between the person posting the hunt and the person/outfit that owns the hunting rights in that area (eg agent, primary lessee, sublessee, subquota owner, freelance PH, chancer ... )

4. what PH, by name and licensing country, is going to conduct the hunt.

5. what the "returns and refund" policy is.

I have used a list like yours, originally provided by Terry Carr, for many years.

I have asked outfitters these questions many times. The better ones don't wait for you to ask, but offer this information freely.

I have gotten the wrong answers sometimes. Or evasive answers.

I have learned not to ignore such answers.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
.

Posting this and nothing else has made me lose what sympathy I had for the guy. This horse was beat to death. I believed the brother Drazen were wronged. This latest post is a prick move.

On the other hand , Martin used to post using his name and now posts using a fictitious name from Salt Lake City. I am not sure why that has been done . It doesn't look good to me either.

No that is Frank, he must be posting a message he received from the Peters group.

He just included Martin's response from page 2 of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
After reading through all 14 pages I've come to a conclusion.

I'm very glad it wasn't me on this hunt.

True that.

And I am glad it won't be me in 2019.

Makay

thats posted right here in this thread

I moved it forward

far as I know that's one of the 3 short comments Martin posted on the subject

looks like the standard hide behind the [I've got lawyers ]

so I don't get dragged down in to the mud the blood and the beer

there is a story under all this and it's not pretty

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
Makay

thats posted right here in this thread

I moved it forward

far as I know that's one of the 3 short comments Martin posted on the subject

looks like the standard hide behind the [I've got lawyers ]

so I don't get dragged down in to the mud the blood and the beer

there is a story under all this and it's not pretty

I tend to give each side time to respond to something like this.

Sadly, I think I have to agree with you that enough time has passed and no response has come from Martin.

It which he certainly leaves a big red flag against himself.

Very sad to see this, as some of our members have had good hunts with him in the past.

It would be interesting to know why the PHs that used to work for him no longer do. It would also be interesting to know why he no longer hunts the Omay.

quote:

in the mud the blood and the beer

You must be a fan of Johnny Cash.

Add me to the posters who would not and have not booked another hunt with Mr. Pieters again. Of 14 safaris to Africa I have made, the one I booked with Martin Pieters in July 2011 was by far the worst.