It certainly appears that the .416 crowd of cartridges have become the new go to all-around cartridge/caliber in Africa. Are the .375 caliber cartridges becoming has-beens or am I mistaken? It seems anywhere I go to purchase ammunition I can get a box of .375 H&H magnum for approximately $30 - $40 U.S. dollars. The .416 calibers are always around the $100.00 per box of 20 region. My hunting partner claims the .416 has superior ranging qualities with the 350 grain bullets than the .375 H&H magnum has with the 270 grain bullets of similar design. I know the .416 has superior thump when it comes to DG but I find it difficult to believe that it can outclass the .375 when using a projectile made specifically for plainsgame such as the 260 or 270 grain spitzer formed bullet. We have not tried to prove his theory but I believe it would not work out quite the way he expects it to. Have any of you compared the two when hunting plains game at considerable ranges? What is the outcome if having done so?

Thanks,

jfm

Personally I see my .416 as my DG rifle -this has also led me to trade my .375 for a 9.3x62, This combo is right for me BUT if one would choose say a .50 cal for DG than the .375 becomes a logical second rifle...

I guess it´s all a matter of taste and the .375 won´t become obsolete during our liftimes

Besides, no one is happy with just one gun!

I think there is a shift in hunting styles, coupled with airline baggage restrictions and the new security issues surrounding travelling with firearms. There may be a trend to bring just one rifle, even if one owns several appropriate riles. Since buffalo has become the most desirable/accessible DG, it seems normal that more people think of a 416 than before.

I carry both the .416 and the .375.

I have yet to find a plainsgame animal that the .375 wasn't perfect for.

I shot my leopard with my .375 and I have shot many impala with my .375. Put a solid in for the little guys if you are hunting them.

Why walk around the African Bush undergunned hunting PG in DG territory.

My elephant and next year's buffalo and lion will be with my .416, but the .375 will be in the truck.

No question the .375 has good enough ballastics for a 300 yard shot. The .416 would have considerable more drop at 300 yards

I not going to be walking around in thick bush with a .300. Why even take the chance?

South Africa could be the exception, but I don't think I will ever hunt in the country.

I agree with Cewe and Lightning, in part. IMHO and for what it's worth, I believe that the .375 is still, and will remain the all around African rifle, due to, among other things, the cost of ammo, its availability, lighter recoil and ease of handling, flat shooting characteristics, etc. Having personally shot nearly all of the Big Five with it, as well as hippo and croc, and a number of plains game, I have found that if you use a premium bullet and the bullet is placed correctly, it does its job, and does it very, very well. I choose not own a .416 for those reasons. My own 40 caliber rifles are limited to the .458 Lott and my .470 NE double rifle.

I used a .416 Rem on three one-gun safaris, with excellent results. The North Fork .370gr bullets are excellent on anything from duiker to buffalo...toss in a few flat point solids and you are good to go on elephant too. I don’t think they are necessarily the “new all-arounderâ€, but if I HAD to select one caliber for Africa based on the hunting that I plan/hope to do looking forward, it would be the .416.

Interesting. Use Enough Gun and I were just talking about this at lunch. I have both the .375 H&H and a .416 Rem. Since I also have a .458 Lott I think I'll likely stick to a battery of the .458 and .375 for a two gun safari.

Does anyone have ballistics info comparing standard weight .416 loads with standard weight .375's?

I don't think so. The .416s provide a better margin than the .375 on elephant, to be sure.

But if one is lucky enough to be able to hunt elephant on a regular basis, then one ought to get a real elephant rifle, i.e., a .458 or larger.

The .375 H&H Mag. will always be "all-around" king in my book.

For what it's worth?? I have shot several of the .416 makings and personally didn't like any of them. Unless Ele and Rhino are on the bill of fare, and I would expect that is not the case with "most" of our Safaris, then it's a .375 H and H for the "bigger stuff" buff, eland, lion, etc. and a .300 of some kind, mine is a .300WSM would be the two gun choice. If restricted to only one gun, .375 H and H hands down. I really don't see the .416's being the one gun choice for most folks.

Larry Sellers

The recoil of 416's is even worse than the Win 458's. For plains game/DG combos, I'll take the 375H&H and the 458 Win. with 450gr A-frames, and 500gr solids, and either one will do if the other has problems or is back in the truck. The 416's would be fine for a one gun safari that included DG, but so would the 458. If plenty of PG on menu, the 375H&H.

Ditto to mrlexma. I've always been a bit surprised by PH's who back up dangerous game (particularly elephant) with the 416 but the penetration is definitely top notch.

I don't see how anyone can question the greater power and knockdown of the .416 over the .375. That is the reason I use the .416 on lion, ele, buff.

Most PH's I have hunted with when asked to choose the .416 or .375 for lion, all have said the .416 in my experience. For me that makes it a moot point on buff and ele.

You could argue for bigger on ele.

i think the 400 is (410/411)
the 400/375 ruger or "pondoro" as i have dubbed it will be a do all.

you cant beat the the 423/416/411's wisdom in the recoil/penetration/smack down ratios.

The tendency for me is to up-gun some. A 350 gr Barnes X at 2700 fps from a .416 has a great trajectory and superb impact performance. It just rocks!

I took a 9,3x62 and a .416 for plains game. Primarily because of a scope failure it was the battery for which I had spare scopes. For DG I took a .375 H&H and a .416.

I find the 9,3x62 and .375 are very pleasant to shoot and are superb plains game rifles. I'll go with one of the 9,3s or a .375 and a .416 for plains game.

Even on tough plains game the .416 had so much more impressive performance than the .375 I think I'll take it and a .458 or a .470 on future DG hunts.

In 05 I took a 375 H&H and 416 rem mag to Namibia
I took 14 trophys, the smallest was a springbuck the largest a eland. I shot 270 and 350 gr TSX.The 416 did shoot flatter than the 375. I shot a zebra with each ,both ran off. The one shot with the 416 through the right ham with exit in left shoulder ran 200 yards. The one shot with the 375 had a poor first hit, 3 follow up shots on the run put it down within 200 yards. Gemsbuck shot with both droped to the shot. My Blue widebeest shot through the heart with the 416 ran 300 yards, Blood trail was easy to follow, it was 6 foot wide. The TSX are too hard for dramatic kills on plains game, every thing died, with most animals falling to the shot. The zebra shot by my wife dropped to the shot, a 180 gr nosler partion in 30-06. I sold the 375 to buy a 9.3x74 double.

JD

The buffalo have got tougher today. The once a year hunters need a .416 ...

Pick whichever suits you better. Both will do the job if shot properly.

PS I like my .450 but would be happy to use a .375, .416 or a .450 +.

You will not live long enough to see the .416 supplant the .375H&H. So tweak the numbers and contemplate your navel all you want. It ain't gonna happen.

I will have both one of these days. I am busy building a 416 Rigby.

What is interesting, I bought Norma cases a couple of days ago and the 416 Rigby cases were cheaper than the 375 H&H. Nobody at the shop could explain it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lightning:
I don't see how anyone can question the greater power and knockdown of the .416 over the .375. That is the reason I use the .416 on lion, ele, buff.

Most PH's I have hunted with when asked to choose the .416 or .375 for lion, all have said the .416 in my experience. For me that makes it a moot point on buff and ele.

You could argue for bigger on ele.

The above seems to be the thinking of most who use the 416s for DG, and there is no question that the 416s are a little better on the big stuff, but that doesn't make the 416 a "BEST" "ALL-AROUND". The 416s are lacking in long range on smaller targets, but are superior for close in on the big stuff. The 375H&H is far more versatile on long range shots on small things, and is completely reliable on the large things, though not the best, but then neither is the 416. I would rather have a .450 class, up for the big boys, but like the 416 it is not well suited for the small things, especially at longer range.

The fact is, the 375 H&H with a spread of bullet weights, and configuration, has far less recoil, so is easier to shoot well, yet has enough with heavy well designed bullets, to take on the bigist thing walking, in a pinch. Not the best on either end, but is adiquate on either end, and legal. This, IMO, is the defination of an ALL AROUND RIFLE CHAMBERING.

The 416s are popular, and will definately be around for a long time, as they do a wounderful job, but simply do not have the wide spread, and user friendly status, that the old 1912, 375 H&H has, IMO!
......................

I have used the .416 Taylor and 30.06 combination on several safaris. I handload the .416 with 300 gr. bullets and the .06 with 180 gr. bullets. The ballistics are almost identical making for a great two gun combination. I have had great success with the taylor on buff. I'm not saying it's the best combination but it works for me.
Tim
Farren Global Adventures

Thanks for your question. You have hit on an important point. Let me give you a comment. I must tell you that I think you will be disappointed with the .375 at 200-plus yards. I certainly have been. The best way to take two guns to Africa is to use your .416 Remington. Just take hand loads using 350grain Barnes-X Triple Shock and loads using 350 grain Barnes banded solids. With that set of ammunition you have effectively brought two guns. You have extreme range capability with accuracy, reliability and knockdown power, no matter what game you're after. At all ranges, the .416 will out-perform the .375. In my view, a .375 cannot be compared with a .416 when the .416 is loaded properly. Good hunting. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 5248:
I think you will be disappointed with the .375 at 200-plus yards. I certainly have been...At all ranges, the .416 will out-perform the .375. Bill

You won't get much agreement on that. At least not from me. There is a point of diminishing returns.

I'm one of the guys that thinks you get better penetration with a longer bullet. The "Sweet 400s" give you just that. You can employ moderate velocity and get great penetration.
.416 in Remington, Rigby, Taylor, Hoffman, Weatherby or 500/416 Nitro Express will get the job done.

I agree with the 416 being a great all arounder. My problem is the extra weight you need in a rifle to handle the incremental recoil in going from 375 HH to 416. My 375 weighs 8.2 lbs with scope. To get about the lightest 416 I think you need to add another lb or so. Now this old fart in toting around a 9 lb plus package. I have a 458 Win mag I can barely get out of the rack. I think it weighs 10 lbs.

quote:

I must tell you that I think you will be disappointed with the .375 at 200-plus yards.

That is not my experience. I've taken game (eland) with the 375 (about 200 yards) and I saw my best friend handily take his kudu at a measured 350 with no problems. I'm sure the 416 with something like a 350 TSX can reach out there, but I don't think I would ever consider taking a 416 where PG game were also on the menu and the possibilty of log range shots were a consideration. jorge

I have knocked a fallow deer over at 342 yards with the first shot from a .416 Rigby with the 350-grain X bullet at 2700 fps. That is a pleasant low pressure load with virtually the same trajectory as a .375 H&H 270-grainer or a .30-06 180-grainer.

With the 330-grain GSC HV at faster velocity, a .416 would put the .375 H&H to shame.

A .395/340-grain GSC HV and FN combo will really shine as an African all-arounder. I'll be sure to test it on all manner of PG on my upcoming safari.

As much as I love my old .375, and .404, the 416 Rem is simply a better all around cartridge if you don't mind the recoil, and I personally don't find it much more than a .375.

Can be used in a std. M-98 Mauser action with very little work, brass and bullets available and loaded ammo easy to come by.

A 450 Gr. Woodleigh at 2350 FPS or a 300 gr. whatever at 2600 FPS or better gives it a trajectory of the 180 gr. 30-06. That is pretty hard to beat anyway you cut it..I have done some drop test with my 416 and my .375 and cannot see any difference at all.

I just see the .416s as the best of the litter.

That said, I'm not ready to be a one rifle kinda guy, nor would I part with my .375, it shoots one inch with irons at 100 yds most of the time. and that kind of accuracy is rare indeed, it shoots the 350 gr. Woodleighs into a half inch with a Leupold set on 5X at 100....It shoots most all loads to the same POI and in an inch with most..The point is the rifle itself is more important than the caliber within reason. I would not trade this .375 for any 416 that would do less on the range.

In light of the responses from our two learned forumites, I'll cede the point.....to a point. I still the the 416 is not particularly optimized for long range PG work. jorge

Your right Jorge, but then none of the rounds mentioned are designed for long range shooting and the animals hunted are seldom shot beyond 200 yards..Its a trade off, but the 416 is argueably the best trade of the bunch and arrives with more punch...

The .375 or 416 are not ideal for long range plainsgame shooting, but they will do in a pinch..the 300s, 338s are better, but they too are a compromise for dangerous game.

The right tool for the right job is a much better approach to calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

A .395/340-grain GSC HV and FN combo will really shine as an African all-arounder. I'll be sure to test it on all manner of PG on my upcoming safari.

When do you leave?

Seriously, I did not know you had a trip in the works -- glad to hear it!

The little short,round man with the long legs said a number of times that if he could not shoot the 416 that he would be using the 458 Lott .That was a quote from Geo. Hoffman PH.
He killed many head of game and most likely shot many a bullet into a test situation. Last time I was at his house in Sonora, TX his shooting bench was just where it had always been.
When I had the pleasure of shooting my buffalo with him I used his 416 Rem. Mag. and my handloaded 350 Barnes X. One shot worked like a charm at 161 of his steps however on his advice I did fire one more as we got close just for insurance. Was not necessary as buffalo was dead. We were able to recover the first bullet by the second is still in the ground in TZ north of the Inkululu River.First bullet is here in my office along with the mounted buffalo and still weighs 350 grains.
Damn I miss George!

Mims,
I do too!

My 416 rem mag is 1/2 moa past 300 yards. It shoots just as well has my 375H&H. It was the better of the two on my plains game hunt.
My hits were closer to my point of aim with the 416 than with the 375H&H.
JD

Jorge,
.375 .416

.395!!!


Harry,
George Hoffman single-handedly brought the .416 back from obscurity, and we owe to him the credit for the rebirth of the .416 Rigby at Sturm Ruger and Remington's variation of his .416 Hoffman theme.

Charles,
I have not made any specific plans as yet, but it is truly a project to hunt the Eastern Cape and the Limpopo area with a .395 Tatanka (AKA the 40-07) and a 30-06 as backup.

Pronunciation guide: Forty-ought-seven and Thirty-ought-six

Sorry Rip, I just can't get jazzed about a caliber called 395 tatanka! jorge

Ps: the 378 Weatherby fits the bill quite nicely or Saeed's 375/404 does to!

Well, for what it's worth, I just joined the 416 ranks with an interesting project. I'll check it out for myself. It's a popular caliber and one that I don't have personal experience with so I'm looking forward to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Your right Jorge, but then none of the rounds mentioned are designed for long range shooting and the animals hunted are seldom shot beyond 200 yards..Its a trade off, but the 416 is argueably the best trade of the bunch and arrives with more punch...

The .375 or 416 are not ideal for long range plainsgame shooting, but they will do in a pinch..the 300s, 338s are better, but they too are a compromise for dangerous game.

The right tool for the right job is a much better approach to calibers.

Ray, you took the words right out of my mouth.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Charles,
I have not made any specific plans as yet, but it is truly a project to hunt the Eastern Cape and the Limpopo area with a .395 Tatanka (AKA the 40-07) and a 30-06 as backup.

I hope it gells soon, but of course no sooner than the Tatanka.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Sorry Rip, I just can't get jazzed about a caliber called 395 tatanka! jorge

Ps: the 378 Weatherby fits the bill quite nicely or Saeed's 375/404 does to!

Jorge,
I know, I know ... your shorts are tight and white ... until after one of those night carrier landings. A few of us have such boring and dull lives we have to go where no man has gone before ... and take a tighty-whitey caliber along as a backup for lost ammo. Lost ammo: That is a scarey thought.