quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
English women like Joanne get brought up anti-hunting. It's a residual English class culture thing.

Despite the amount of typing going on, there is no discussion actually taking place.

I will make the observation that anti-hunting types, even the fairly benign ones like our Joanne, in my experience have always been the people who know the least about animals.

Hunters know all about animals. It is their passion. Anti-hunters have no real interest in animals, which is why they cannot tell the difference between a mountain lion and an african lion. What they are interested in is elevating themselves socially above others by portraying themselves as being more civilised by comparison, showing their concern for the poor creatures hunted and their distaste for unenlightened uncivilised types that hunt them.

All this does is emphasize the gulf between Joanne and the natural world she claims to care about, yet paradoxically, knows so little about and has no interaction with.

Our Jo has been to South Africa. She went to some shopping centres. And a crocodile farm.

Compare this with the level of intereaction everybody else on this forum has with truly wild animals and the African wilderness, and her efforts on this whole thread become terribly embarrassing.

Joanne, if you actually cared as much as you pretend, or think you do, you wouldnt be on here arguing with the people who spend so much money and time, both enjoying African wildlife and contributing to its preservation.

I understand that you cannot get over the seemingly contradictory notion that hunting something can contribute to a species' longetivity; or that where animals have no value, they will be destroyed quickly by the local populations that didn't grow up with those Disney movies. You simply think hunters are being self serving, this is plain. but that is because you fundementally misunderstand hunting.

Your attitude to hunting itself seeps through, although you claim that it doesnt bother you when it the species is 'sustainable'.
You really think that hunters go hunting because it is 'fun'. You wrote that. More than once I think.
It's not fun. Sometimes it's hard physical labour like digging ditches. It is mostly always uncomfortable. Sometimes dangerous. Why do people do it then? You ask - its for teh trophies you think, so one can lord it over someone else who didnt get a bigger one, a more expensive one - a rarer one. Sometimes, in a very few occassions this might be true. There are mediocre personalities in every field. For the meat, yes, a lot hunt for the meat. Because it has meaning for them. You are uncomfortable with the killing and death itself. Hunters are closer to death than other people and understand it better as a natural thing.
But for a lot of people to hunt is to experience the only way one can have a relationship with a truely wild animal. In the wild place that it lives.

Anti-hunting people will never get this because they dont care as much as hunters for the wildlife, I truly believe this. Basic lack of knowledge shows this up. Ask yourself how much you really care about wild animals if you dont even know anything about them.

Joanne,
Here is a test and I ask you to be honest, because I hope you are honest enough to admit if you don't know - but when is the mating period for red deer in the UK?
Do you know what month it is in? No googling allowed.

If you cannot answer this question, then you must understand that you have no business dabbling in these waters, upsetting these people,and potentially helping make things worse for the wildlife with your ego-driven meddling.

That is by far the most insightful post I have read in a long, long time!

Carlsen Highway, one post a month is not enough. You need to visit us more often.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
The shame is that the post's content and veracity will be lost on Jolo.

quote:

After reading his post and comparing what he said to Jolo's reply to my post I realized that nothing we say will matter to Jolo. I won't waste anymore time on trying to educate Jolo.

quote:

Yea, I've seen that 50,000 number before in regards to leopard numbers. But I distinctly remember it having a "4" in front of the 50,000 number!

quote:

Reading about London on the internet, I'm seeing the city through the filter of someone else's perspective. How do I know if I'm getting an accurate read on the place unless I know the writer's agenda and influences.

quote:

How many times have I read reviews of New York City as being a shinning city that never sleeps, with everything in the world to do from shows to shopping to fine dining, etc. Yet, as a country boy, which I have been all my life, every time I've been there, I couldn't wait to leave. I find it rude, dirty, crowded, with no redeeming qualities. (Sorry NY folks, nothing personal. I find all cities the same way as I prefer open country side, wildlife, and trees). If all I knew about NY was what I had read, and maybe a single trip taken with a well orchestrated tour designed to show all the highlights and hide the gritty underbelly, I'd have a distorted view of what really went on there. According to the fashion and dining magazines, it's the greatest city. I absolutely hate it!!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Jolo

Firstly not one hunting trip of mine was spent in a luxury lodge or even a modern home. Every single hunt was either tent camp in the wilderness or an "A" frame bush hut or a bivy in the bush or an old sheapard's hut or a farm house on some occasions AND on may occadions village huts, cow sheds, sheep pens etc. near wild country.

Before you post such rubbish why don't you check my history on AR and my recent posts over the last 3 months. That will tell you that I have supported conservation though I have done little hunting in over a year due to shoulder surgery. Check the Asian Hunting & Birds forums in particular!

I have probably visited national parks and sanctuaries to watch wildlife about twice or thrice as much as I have done hunting trips. A few hundred trips I would guess - without a gun in hand.

I have personally walked from 7,000 feet elevevation to 15,000 feet in the himalayas WITHOUT a firearm - sleeping in village huts and court yards! I doubt you have climbed 800 feet in elevation in true wild country carrying your own pack.

You are the one cherry picking information by quoting studies done in areas where leopard human contact is high - in farming country. What about remote wilderness country?

Your assertion that " Again these deaths are no doubt a result of human encroachment onto the animals natural territory." is just plain rubbish. Is someone's verandah and back yard near a kid's tricycle in a suburb of Mumbai a leopard's natural territory?

You need to visit a variety of leopard (& lion & tiger) habitats to understand how these cats patrol their territory and move around. It is commonly believed that tigers patrola round 50 sq miles on an average. But you go to Nagarhole / Kabini and it is 5 sq miles per tiger or less! You go to the Garhwal himalayas & it is more like 100 sq miles per tiger (excluding the Terrai). Urban conflict with leopards is common in Africa as well and gets reported mostly in local media and very rarely in national media (same is the case in India).

I have mentioned this before - most national parks in Africa and India were established by hunters and their associates to conserve wildlife. Over 80% of Indias national parks were shooting preserves of former Maharajas!

___________________________
Jolo said ...

quote:

How much of your hunting trip is spent in the luxurious lodges I read so much about?

If you couldn't hunt for whatever reason would you still be out there doing any conservation work or would your agenda for doing any have gone?

quote:

English women like Joanne get brought up anti-hunting. It's a residual English class culture thing.

quote:

I will make the observation that anti-hunting types, even the fairly benign ones like our Joanne, in my experience have always been the people who know the least about animals.

Hunters know all about animals. It is their passion. Anti-hunters have no real interest in animals, which is why they cannot tell the difference between a mountain lion and an african lion. What they are interested in is elevating themselves socially above others by portraying themselves as being more civilised by comparison, showing their concern for the poor creatures hunted and their distaste for unenlightened uncivilised types that hunt them.

All this does is emphasize the gulf between Joanne and the natural world she claims to care about, yet paradoxically, knows so little about and has no interaction with.

quote:

I understand that you cannot get over the seemingly contradictory notion that hunting something can contribute to a species' longetivity; or that where animals have no value, they will be destroyed quickly by the local populations that didn't grow up with those Disney movies. You simply think hunters are being self serving, this is plain. but that is because you fundementally misunderstand hunting.

quote:

Your attitude to hunting itself seeps through, although you claim that it doesnt bother you when it the species is 'sustainable'.
You really think that hunters go hunting because it is 'fun'. You wrote that. More than once I think.
It's not fun. Sometimes it's hard physical labour like digging ditches. It is mostly always uncomfortable. Sometimes dangerous. Why do people do it then? You ask - its for teh trophies you think, so one can lord it over someone else who didnt get a bigger one, a more expensive one - a rarer one. Sometimes, in a very few occassions this might be true. There are mediocre personalities in every field. For the meat, yes, a lot hunt for the meat. Because it has meaning for them. You are uncomfortable with the killing and death itself. Hunters are closer to death than other people and understand it better as a natural thing.
But for a lot of people to hunt is to experience the only way one can have a relationship with a truely wild animal. In the wild place that it lives.

quote:

Joanne,
Here is a test and I ask you to be honest, because I hope you are honest enough to admit if you don't know - but when is the mating period for red deer in the UK?
Do you know what month it is in? No googling allowed.

If you cannot answer this question, then you must understand that you have no business dabbling in these waters, upsetting these people,and potentially helping make things worse for the wildlife with your ego-driven meddling.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

There he/she goes again.

quote:

I am lucky enough to live little more than two hours away from the Lake district where there is a small population of red deer. Also found there is the red squirrel, nesting ospreys, otters, crayfish, a male golden eagle, the female hasnt been since about 2004 if memory serves. Red kites, buzzards, peregrines, raven and the rare and endangered vendace, arctic charr and schelly fish are also to be found there. Interestingly there are also a couple of carnivorous plants, the sundew and butterwort.

But sorry i digress. To answer your question the red deer breeds september / october and gives birth may / june usually to only one.

quote:

I asked you where you spent your visits. I made no assumptions about whether you 5 star lodged it or you slept under the stars!!

I see you chose to ignore other questions i asked you such as where you are posting from now?
How often you are in the wilds of Africa?
Where i was devious or untruthful?
Whether you would still be doing conservation work if hunting was no longer allowed for whatever reason?

Before i am accused of cherry picking i think you should get your ducks in a row!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Jolo

You need to check what you post. You accused me of staying in luxury camps .... hence my reference to 5 star. It was your post....

The last time i checked the following was a question not an accusation!!

quote:

How much of your hunting trip is spent in the luxurious lodges i read so much about?

To answer your questions - I sit in my office which is in a tripple garage in the basement with my workshop. No air conditioning & no carpet. Concrete block walls. BUT the real issue is not the office where we type from but the real wilderness that we experience (or not, in your case) and write about.

Or not in your case having never actually set foot in Africa!!

Secondly, it is common knowledge on AR that I have never been to Africa. BUT I have been to a lot of wild places and have hunted hard on foot with a pack.

Regarding me supporting conservation if I did not hunt - read my post again. The answer is there. The proof is on AR.

Your evasive and dishonest nature is evident from the above points.

Yes the ducks are all in a row. AND, you support Dr.Kat's dishonest and evasive behaviour because it is just like your behaviour. You had already decided that you were against hunting before you came on AR with this false pretense that you wanted to learn the truth.

You would not know the truth if it kissed you passionately! On the other hand you would swallow all the hateful lies against hunters spewed on Lion Aid and similar forums.

Now why don't you just admit that you know nothing about conservation of big cats and just get out of AR.

-----------------------------------------

Jolo said

quote:

I asked you where you spent your visits. I made no assumptions about whether you 5 star lodged it or you slept under the stars!!

I see you chose to ignore other questions i asked you such as where you are posting from now?
How often you are in the wilds of Africa?
Where i was devious or untruthful?
Whether you would still be doing conservation work if hunting was no longer allowed for whatever reason?

Before i am accused of cherry picking i think you should get your ducks in a row!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
once again, guys- the sooner you ignore this stupid bitch/bastard., the sooner he/she will disappear!!! PUT A LID ON IT!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
once again, guys- the sooner you ignore this stupid bitch/bastard., the sooner he/she will disappear!!! PUT A LID ON IT!!!!!

I'm afraid not!!

You do realise bitch and bastard can be used for both sexes, you didnt need to put them both?

Now as for going away i find myself curious about something else after some research and talking!

I wonder why in the last five years trophy hunting of wild lions has fallen by about 45%?

I also wonder why canned lion hunting is up by about 122% in the last five years?

quote:

When are you lot going to get it into your thick heads that man breeds animals for his use?

quote:

A bow hunt of a canned lioness where the lioness is left to wander around with an arrow in it for quite a lengthy period, before they manage to find it again and make another shot. Even after the second shot it is not clear that the lioness is actually dead.

For me the above is cruel and unnecessary just as raising canned lions in cages little bigger than themselves is cruel and unneccesary.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

A bow hunt of a canned lioness where the lioness is left to wander around with an arrow in it for quite a lengthy period, before they manage to find it again and make another shot. Even after the second shot it is not clear that the lioness is actually dead.

For me the above is cruel and unnecessary just as raising canned lions in cages little bigger than themselves is cruel and unneccesary.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Jolo, you still know nothing about the wilderness or about conservation of true wildeness and its fauna & flora!

Yes, you can read and write English. unfortunately that is not enough for you to know something significant about the wilderness or about real conservation.

Again you failed to address my earlier point - Most national parks and snctuaries in africa and India were established by hunters!

It was hunters who took the initiative to protect & conserve such habitat and species for posterity.

You will no useful impact as you support Lion conservation in Nigeria along with Dr.Kat & that has no relevance to meaningful conservation of wild lions!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Jolo, you still know nothing about the wilderness or about conservation of true wildeness and its fauna & flora!

Yes, you can read and write English. unfortunately that is not enough for you to know something significant about the wilderness or about real conservation.

Again you failed to address my earlier point - Most national parks and snctuaries in africa and India were established by hunters!

It was hunters who took the initiative to protect & conserve such habitat and species for posterity.

You will no useful impact as you support Lion conservation in Nigeria along with Dr.Kat & that has no relevance to meaningful conservation of wild lions!

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Jolo, you still know nothing about the wilderness or about conservation of true wildeness and its fauna & flora!

Yes, you can read and write English. unfortunately that is not enough for you to know something significant about the wilderness or about real conservation.

Again you failed to address my earlier point - Most national parks and snctuaries in africa and India were established by hunters!

It was hunters who took the initiative to protect & conserve such habitat and species for posterity.

You will no useful impact as you support Lion conservation in Nigeria along with Dr.Kat & that has no relevance to meaningful conservation of wild lions!

I failed to respond to your claim as i was looking for proof either way of which i have yet to find any!
If you care to share the proof of your claim, i will address it then.
I do know that the Kruger Park is not the work of hunters, Kruger was set up to protect the wildlife FROM hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
7MMNut,

Thank you for the link.

I am a little unsure what it is that you claim i am wrong about? The only statement i made was about Kruger Park which was set up by Paul Kruger to protect the wildlife from the over hunting it was suffering. I know that i am not wrong in that statement.

quote:

Collared for research and conservation!!
WTF?

quote:

Kruger was set up to protect the wildlife FROM hunters

quote:

With respect hunters are hunters. There are good and bad i'm sure but they are all the same thing, men/women who hunt! If this is not the case then i would preseume you are therefore forfeiting the right to claim 'our ancestors have always hunted and therefore we do'?

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

Theodore Roosevelt anticipated the growth of the U.S. and set aside very large parts of the country to be kept protected to preserve it's wildlife. The park was established in 1872 and was America's first, and if I'm not mistaken the first of it's kind in the world.

So while Roosevelt, a hunter, obviously did not found Kruger Park, it was if I'm not mistaken at least influenced by Roosevelt's idea for such parks.

quote:

With respect hunters are hunters. There are good and bad i'm sure but they are all the same thing, men/women who hunt!

quote:

hunt·er
[huhn-ter] Show IPA

noun
1.
a person who hunts game or other wild animals for food or in sport
2.
a person who searches for or seeks something: a fortune hunter.

3.
a horse specially trained for quietness, stamina, and jumping ability in hunting.

4.
an animal, as a dog, trained to hunt game.

5.
( initial capital letter ) Astronomy . the constellation Orion.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
This is absolutely ludicrous!!

I have been posting here for nigh on two years and noone has ever had a problem with the term 'hunter.' After all you are hunters and you hunt!

To say the term hunter is prejudice is just ridiculous!

Actor, politician, manager, ranger, footballer, singer, cleaner, king, prince, pope, anti-hunter, hunter.

All these are little tags we give people who take a certain role,have a certain job. Are these prejudice?

Are they hell. They are compartmental and of course we can always expand and clarify the terms used but we are certainly not being prejudicial using them.

The dictionary definition of a hunter is :-

quote:

hunt·er
[huhn-ter] Show IPA

noun
1.
a person who hunts game or other wild animals for food or in sport
2.
a person who searches for or seeks something: a fortune hunter.

3.
a horse specially trained for quietness, stamina, and jumping ability in hunting.

4.
an animal, as a dog, trained to hunt game.

5.
( initial capital letter ) Astronomy . the constellation Orion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hunter?s=t

Now please tell me if i'm wrong but does not the bold text, number 1 describe yourselves?

We could of course go on to clarify between different types of hunter, those who hunt purely for food, sport hunters, ethical hunters, unethical hunters etc etc.

I see no need to do this here to be fair, the majority i have come across appear to be ethical, conservation minded etc.

If you are objecting to the fact i brought into play here the abhorrent video of the canned lioness being bow hunted then i'm afraid thats pretty much tough luck.

Canned hunting, unethical hunting are still a part of the hunting business whether you participate in this or not.

As you all know i am often called a bunny hugger, anti, bitch, bastard, idiot, fool, jelly brain etc etc.

You don't hear me crying 'prejudice'.

Am i a bunny hugger and an anti?

Well i'm certainly against some forms of hunting and the hunting of certain animals, so partial anti, yes. Do i hug bunnys, nope. However i do love animals.

You have lumped me in with a crowd who have been known to state they would rather see every elephant dead than another one hunted and have even made threats against yourselves and your families.

Do i object to this, most certainly! But i also know that the term anti or bunny hugger is a collective term for an awful lot of people who have an awful lot of thoughts,ideas,values and beliefs.

Many of you here have shown prejudice towards me with your uninformed opinions of who i am and what i believe but i have taken this on the chin and not kicked up a fuss.

As for the link to the cow horn article, i think you will find that most antis would object to science being used in such a ludicrous way. I'm also not sure what it has to do with hunting or hunters?

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Where do you get this ridiculous notion i have lumped you in with poachers?

Show me where i have EVER equated you as hunters to poachers.

Put your money where your mouth is on this one please.

As for stupid, well stupid is making accusations as you have done here and not being able to back them up!

Edited to add :-

Poachers and hunters are completely seperate entities. If i mean hunters i'll say hunters as i have done for 2 years, and if i mean poachers i'll say poachers, which i have also done so for 2 years.

I think maybe you need to examine why YOU would think someone saying hunters would be referring to poachers!

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Where do you get this ridiculous notion i have lumped you in with poachers?

Show me where i have EVER equated you as hunters to poachers.

Put your money where your mouth is on this one please.

As for stupid, well stupid is making accusations as you have done here and not being able to back them up!

Edited to add :-

Poachers and hunters are completely seperate entities. If i mean hunters i'll say hunters as i have done for 2 years, and if i mean poachers i'll say poachers, which i have also done so for 2 years.

I think maybe you need to examine why YOU would think someone saying hunters would be referring to poachers!

quote:

I consider a poacher to be a "bad" hunter when speaking broadly. But really they're criminals and I don't care to even use the word hunter in the same breath when speaking of poachers.

quote:

So if a poacher is not a hunter and therefore isn't a bad hunter, just what exactly is a bad hunter in your mind?

quote:

Go on to any anti-hunting site that you support and you will see many such conclusions. The fact that you do not oppose those sites means that you support their view.

Look at Dr. Kat's site - how many people equate hunters with evil, inhuman, murderers etc.? You say nothing! NOTHING!

Now you try to somehow be credible on AR!

You will NEVER gain any credibility here unless you go out into the wilderness and experience the wilderness and may be even accompany some hunters and just share camp a few days or weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
once again, guys- the sooner you ignore this stupid bitch/bastard., the sooner he/she will disappear!!! PUT A LID ON IT!!!!!

I wonder why in the last five years trophy hunting of wild lions has fallen by about 45%?

I also wonder why canned lion hunting is up by about 122% in the last five years?