quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Where do Masai tolerate lions amongst their cattle?

We know the answer to that. Moreover, lion killing was a right of passage for Maasai men. Lion killing still remains an important part of Maasai culture.

quote:

Why do the Maasai warriors hunt lions?

The Maasai tribe sees lion hunting experience as a sign of bravery and personal achievement. In the past, when the lion population was high, the community encouraged solo lion hunting. However, over the last ten years, due to the decline of the lion population, mainly because of rabies and canine distemper virus, the community has adapted a new rule that encourages warriors to hunt in groups instead of solo lion hunt. Group hunting, known in Maasai as olamayio, gives the lion population a chance to grow.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Where do Masai tolerate lions amongst their cattle?

We know the answer to that. Moreover, lion killing was a right of passage for Maasai men. Lion killing still remains an important part of Maasai culture.

quote:

Why do the Maasai warriors hunt lions?

The Maasai tribe sees lion hunting experience as a sign of bravery and personal achievement. In the past, when the lion population was high, the community encouraged solo lion hunting. However, over the last ten years, due to the decline of the lion population, mainly because of rabies and canine distemper virus, the community has adapted a new rule that encourages warriors to hunt in groups instead of solo lion hunt. Group hunting, known in Maasai as olamayio, gives the lion population a chance to grow.

quote:

But Maasai wear bright colors, live in cow dung huts, smile, dance, and make a good subject for the kind hearted and well meaning ignorant westerners who finance NGOs.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


Hey Jo,

Can you tell us what kind of lion this is
:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:


I've yet to find any evidence that hunting pays the most for conservation but nor have i found evidence against that so i'll go with you on this one and say if true the bad has its good.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
If Jo and her silly band of idiots win, this is the only lion we are going to be seeing

quote:

Originally posted by snowhound:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by snowhound:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
With respect to animals being hunted for meat and trophy i have no problem providing that animal is sustainable.

I've yet to find any evidence that hunting pays the most for conservation but nor have i found evidence against that so i'll go with you on this one and say if true the bad has its good.

Then perhaps that is where we should start.

1. What is the greatest threat to a chosen species? Regulated hunting, unregulated hunting (bush meat), loss of habitat, other?

2. What does practical experience tell us about the solutions to these threats? What has been tried and how did it work?

Conservation is to important to let feelings get in the way of uncomfortable facts.

1. It is my belief that whilst some threats may be bigger to wildlife than others, it is the combination of them all that we should be looking at. The greatest threat removed does not automatically equate to the survival of a species.The lesser threats may easily equate to a higher offtake.

Every species also has different threats at different levels.

The lion for example :-
a) a much sought after trophy for hunters
b) thought to have medicinal value
c) a pest to farmers
d) has suffered loss of habitat
e) has suffered an increase in diseases
f) natural death
g) territorial fights

The elephant :-
a) a trophy for hunters
b) used for religious icons
c) has suffered loss of habitat
d) a pest to farmers
e) natural death

The rhino :-
a) a trophy for hunters
b) thought to have medicinal purpose
c) suffered a loss of habitat
d) natural death

I'm sure there are more i haven't listed but you get my gist.

2. Practical experience would tell me that so far nothing has worked with any great impact. Small areas have been improved but still the overall offtake of these animals places them in great danger.

Do you suggest that the decrease in lions during the last 50 years is largely due to hunting?
Hint

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

But Maasai wear bright colors, live in cow dung huts, smile, dance, and make a good subject for the kind hearted and well meaning ignorant westerners who finance NGOs.

How true!

JLB should show more concern about FGM instead of Lion preservation and Maasai evictions!

quote:

Quid Pro Quo....

Do you think it is better for the wildlife on that Tanzania land to have Grazing Cattle and goats present that offer disease and deplete the grazing (needed by the wildlife) or to have well controlled hunting and anti poaching patrols?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Are you seriously trying to tell me that one lion kept him afloat

I really don't know what Royal Kafue's total gross revenues were in 2012 but my uneducated guess is that all the other hunts combined did not equal the financial reward to the Kaindu Community derived from my one 21 day Safari.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Jo,

You do realize that almost all of the current National Parks in Africa (non-hunting areas)at one time had indegenous people living on them. They were moved out (resettled) when the parks were formed.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Jo,

You do realize that almost all of the current National Parks in Africa (non-hunting areas)at one time had indegenous people living on them. They were moved out (resettled) when the parks were formed.

465H&H

Not so long back i wrote an article on the history of the Kruger Park just for example. So yes i am aware of this.

quote:

What really concerns me in all this at present is that no one seems to be able to tell me what will happen to the Maasai that are evicted.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Jo,

I have asked you this question several times before, and you seem to conveniently forget it.

How much money have YOU donated to ANY conservation cause In Africa?

How much has lionaid donated to African conservation?

Where do Masai tolerate lions amongst their cattle?

And lastly, where did the pork chop you had for lunch yesterday come from?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Jo

I am still awaiting your answer to my specific questions quoted below!

----------------------
Earlier post by Nakihunter

[Qote]Jo

Yes, Lion Aid website or page anywhere in any forum. Any conference or meeting or personal discussion or phone or email.

Why do you not challenge Dr. Kat's prejudice and dishonesty? Why do you not post on those sites asking him to be open about factual debate with hunters rather than just ranting & raving and propagating false stories about hunters? Why not challenge him on his banning anyone who posts an opposing view?

Why? Are you afraid? Or do you support his falsehood & believe in those tactics yourself?

quote:

Originally posted by Zig Mackintosh:
Jojo,

I have tried to stay out of this pathetic little argument you have going but I couldn't resist. You can't be much of a researcher if you think that a lion safari brings in the same amount of money as a plains game safari. Makes me wonder about your article on the Kruger if the closest that you have come to a lion is in the Johannesburg lion park (by your own admission). Business must be slow at the pub?

quote:

They will join the rest of the crowd on the vast tract of remaining land.

But no, they WANT THAT PARTICULAR PIECE!

quote:

Why? - Because 20 years down the line it has seen development, the main attraction being the countless water holes which are fed from boreholes providing water to the wildlife.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
fujotupu,

quote:

They will join the rest of the crowd on the vast tract of remaining land.

But no, they WANT THAT PARTICULAR PIECE!

Like the hunting company do?

It was established half a century ago you dim wit!

quote:

Why? - Because 20 years down the line it has seen development, the main attraction being the countless water holes which are fed from boreholes providing water to the wildlife.

Same reasoning as the hunting company then?

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Sometimes we members of Accurate Reloading are our own worst enemies.

We clamor, ridicule, complain, and denounce the anti-hunters for their unwillingness to engage in unemotional, honest, yet spirited debate on their websites. We decry how they lack any objectivity when faced with views in support of hunting and instead resort to illogical arguments and ad hominem attacks.

Despite this, many on AR resort to the same self-defeating tactics as the 'antis' when 'one of them' has the temerity to challenge us on our turf. First, I don't see Jolouburn as either stupid or dishonest. Deliberately provocative? Probably. Desirous of a debate? Clearly. But that would be the attitude of any one of us were we to challenge the mindset of the antis on one of their websites.

While it is obvious that Jolouburn is quite naive about African hunting, it seems to me that providing consistently sober, professional, unbiased, and unemotional facts to bolster our heartfelt and fact-based position is far more beneficial to advancing our passion for safari than resorting to the same tactics we denounce about those who oppose us.

No matter how flustered or agitated we may become, or outright anger-inducing Jolouburn's opinions may be - and quite frankly they are far more benign than most antis I have encountered - there is absolutely no justification for anyone to resort to ungentlemanly conduct.

Frankly, we should be embarrassed that some of us have resorted to the most despicable of name calling. On this thread Jolouburn has been accused of being a "bitch", "whore", "stupid", "idiot", "fool", "pig-headed", "ignorant", "village idiot", "mindless", "moron", and even an "eco-terrorist". One member decided that insulting Jolouburn wasn't enough and said that being logical and female were mutually exclusive - despite the number of female members of AR who are allied with our cause.

Name calling is often - and correctly - attributed to those who find themselves bankrupt of reasonable retort. And given the correctness of our position, none of us should ever find ourselves in that situation. That said, no amount of frustration justifies a lack of civility when ideas are debated. I expect that from those whose hatred for hunting and hunters is matched only by their economy of research and analysis, not from the likes of us who know better.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Are you seriously trying to tell me that one lion kept him afloat

I really don't know what Royal Kafue's total gross revenues were in 2012 but my uneducated guess is that all the other hunts combined did not equal the financial reward to the Kaindu Community derived from my one 21 day Safari.

http://www.kwalata.com/

Now i appreciate that this is South Africa and not Zambia but surely you can appreciate that i couldn't use Zambia.

I often here that if lion were removed from trophy hunting that many reserves would go under. I've just checked out some trophy fees on the site listed above and well this is what i found:-

Lion - $3500 (taken from an email i recieved about a hunt with above company)
Giraffe - $3500
Kudu - $3000
Sable - $11,000
Eland (cape) - $2950

Now there are obviously plenty of other animals listed that are less expensive but my point is that lion is not the only animal to bring in large trophy fees!

quote:

Originally posted by Zig Mackintosh:
Jojo,

I am not going to waste any more time engaging you. You are the researcher, go and find out!! I will give you a little clue, the trophy fee is not the only fee on a hunting safari.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by snowhound:
Do you suggest that the decrease in lions during the last 50 years is largely due to hunting?
Hint

I've re-read my post and can't see anywhere i make any such suggestion.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
The safari company gets paid, the staff get money, the landowners get money, the government gets money, infrastructure is built, the visitors spend more money before and after the hunt. Safari hunting supports regional development - regional development (in this case) supports the wildlife that allows it to operate. To consider the trophy fee alone is very short-sighted - but common.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
$3,500 for a lion hunt and therefore the hunting of lion is not a go/no go scenario for the business. $3,500 for a lion hunt is laughable. Never seen anything approaching this amount. Obviously RSA and obviously for a female.


Here is the link to said lion hunt. Yes it is in SA but i could hardly quote something from Zambia could i?

http://www.africahunting.com/hunts-offered-wanted-worldwide/10469-kwalata-wilderness-free-roaming-wild-lion-hunting-safari.html

As you can clearly see male lion, trophy fee $3,500

Has absolutely NOTHING to do with the realities of supporting the truly wild lands of Africa and the infusion of funds into the local communities that prevents the locals from retaliating against the predators for taking the odd goat or cow.

You say you haven't seen the numbers of how much a lion hunt brings in as compared to plains game or even photographic safaris? Let's put some numbers to it then based on where I hunted my lion last year in the Zambezi Valley of Zimbabwe. We'll use the numbers right off their website OK?

Plains game as quoted: 1 to 10 days at $650 per day. Most guys doing a plains game only hunt will choose 7 days. So here we go:

Daily rate: $4,550
Zebra: $1,250
Impala: $ 250
Warthog: $ 450
Reedbuck: $ 600
Kudu Bull: $1,200

Total for day/TF: $8,300

Now, in a non fenced wild environment where actual hunting is required, it is highly unlikely that one would be successful in taking these 5 animals in 7 days. But, it's a generous sampling and I have no problem allowing for the theoretical success shown.

Lion and Buffalo as quoted: 21 days at $1,800 per day. Note, buffalo is included as lion hunting requires bait which must be paid for as well. Buffalo is the traditional bait animal so that is why it is quoted together. However, we are attempting to view this exercise from a standpoint of reality so 1 buffalo for bait isn't going to result in success. There will be other TFs paid in support of the lion hunt as well and I'll attempt to list them on the conservative side here. Remember also, most Dangerous Game hunts of this nature will result in several plains game specimens being taken as well; I've included same.

Daily rate: $37,800
Lion TF: $10,000
Buffalo TF: $ 4,550
Buffalo Cow TF: $ 1,250
Hippo TF: $ 4,000
Kudu Bull: $ 1,250
Impala: $ 250
Warthog: $ 450
Zebra: $ 1,250

Total for Day/ TF: $60,800

Quite the difference in terms of money brought in wouldn't you agree? Yes, it's expensive in terms of meat used, but realize that a portion from each bait animal is still given to the community and only animals on the original quota allocation are used. There is simply no other animal that generates these kind of funds. Also realize, that a wild lion hunt in the Zambezi Valley is probably one of, if not THE least expensive place to hunt a wild lion in today's Africa. Maybe one of the Tanzania guys could post some numbers. That would truly be scary to see!! Well upwards of $100,000 in most cases.

Now, I know for a fact, that the company I hunted with, spent a large amount of the money generated from hunting operations last year on drilling 3 bore holes. This was done in an attempt to rehabilitate an area that was previously poached out, but now under their care. This area traditionally did not hold water throughout the dry season so the animals move out each year and back into areas where anti-poaching is not conducted. Yes, holding the animals in this area for longer periods of time will result in some being shot by hunters. But that number is greatly controlled through the quota system, further restricted by the hunting company who is attempting to rehabilitate the area. In comparison to the numbers that are lost through poaching in the non managed surrounding area, there is no contest as to which area is more beneficial to the overall numbers of game animals. Unfortunately, those bore holes collapsed and were unsuccessful in bringing year round water to the area. Not to be outdone, they are going a different route this year in constructing several dams to hold surface water. This is but a very small example of how hunters funds are being used to rehabilitate a wildlife area that was void of animal habitation just a few years ago. One or two lion hunts per year, which by the way is their total quota, for this company very easily can make or break their financial ability to be good shepherds of the land.

All this simply MUST be presented as nothing more than a part of the overall conservation picture however. Without these funds being brought into the community, the local farmers WILL retaliate against predation when a goat or cow is taken. How do they accomplish this? By poisoning a carcass which kills indiscriminately. Every single animal who partakes of the poisoned carcass dies. Lions, the entire pride, not just a solitary old male who is no longer contributing to the gene pool. Every leopard, male or female, adult or cub. Every single Hyena. Every single vulture. Weigh the cost of that against the taking of that one very regulated, no longer reproducing male lion. How is this accomplished? By direct compensation to the farmers for allowing an occasional stock animal to be taken. For direct compensation to the locals for information about who is conducting poaching in the areas. By direct employment of some of those locals.

Jolo, I've got to go back to one of your comments however. Leopard numbers are diminished? Really, you've got to stop showing us how very, very little you know about actual events and conditions on the ground in Afica today if you expect to gain a shred of credibility amongst a group of knowledgable people such as this site is populated with.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Are you seriously trying to tell me that one lion kept him afloat

I really don't know what Royal Kafue's total gross revenues were in 2012 but my uneducated guess is that all the other hunts combined did not equal the financial reward to the Kaindu Community derived from my one 21 day Safari.

http://www.kwalata.com/

Now i appreciate that this is South Africa and not Zambia but surely you can appreciate that i couldn't use Zambia.

I often here that if lion were removed from trophy hunting that many reserves would go under. I've just checked out some trophy fees on the site listed above and well this is what i found:-

Lion - $3500 (taken from an email i recieved about a hunt with above company)
Giraffe - $3500
Kudu - $3000
Sable - $11,000
Eland (cape) - $2950

Now there are obviously plenty of other animals listed that are less expensive but my point is that lion is not the only animal to bring in large trophy fees!

It's not the trophy fee (Mine BTW was $7,000), it's the cost of a Lion hunt specifically including day rates and the length of the hunt.

All the other animals you listed are considered plainsgame and can be hunted most places for a few hundred a day in day rates. Most Lion hunts command over $2,000 per day for generally 18 days or longer. Mine was 21 days. You also need bait and that can add up quickly.

You are also correct that you can not compare a canned hunt in South Africa (which you did) and a wild Lion hunt elsewhere.

quote:

Kwalata Wilderness Free roaming Wild Lion Hunting Safari