The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Can someone please explain this?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Jo I have replied to you with respect, and I don't like seeing how poorly my fellow forum members have acted. In their defense, it is maddening to discuss this with you because you seem to let your emotion blind you to reason at times. I believe you are here to learn and I hope you will hear me out. You said hunters won't protect lions if they are not allowed to hunt them. You have to understand, hunting is a form of husbandry. No one cares more about the well being of animals than those who depend on them for sustenance(in the case of lion hunting it is monetary or spiritual sustenance). Hunters have to work to protect a lot of animals and the fact that every person has limited resources dictates that hunters work to protect the animals that they hunt.
It is important to keep in mind that the most important of hunting's contributions towards conservation is the fact that it places a value on the animals that are hunted. To poor people the world over animals that don't have some type of value beyond their intrinsic value have a name: "pests". When animals are seen to have value beyond their intrinsic values they automatically gain political clout, and they and their habitats are protected. Intrinsic value is a foreign concept in the third world.(see below)
Suggestions like this sound crass, but he does have a point. If you traveled there you would quickly learn that the vast majority of Africans see no value in any animal beyond what it offers to them. If they see the animals as a detriment(either through danger or destruction to property) they would be happy to see them all killed. And if you ask, "but doesn't the _____ have a right to be here?" they will say, "no, the animals belong in the parks." Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Well stated Jason and I hope Jo understands what you've brought forth. | |||
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Jo believes that us humans have less rights than animals on this earth; we belong in parks and the animals should always have priority over all matters regarding land use and human wildlife conflict.  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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IN HER MIND, ANIMAL RIGHTS ALWAYS TRUMP HUMAN RIGHTS!  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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JLB: There has been one documented case in TZ, specifically in the Tarangire National Park tented camp a number of years ago. A child was allegedly taken by a Leopard in the evening after dinner while playing in the vicinity of the lounge area while their parents were relaxing after dinner. Other than that isolated case, there have been none to the best of my knowledge. India and Nepal I believe have had their fair share of man-eating Leopards but then again there are probably more humans than there is game and the one substitutes the other - seems logical. | |||
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Fujo, am i mis-understanding you? are you saying that you have not heard of incidents of leopards attacking humans in an attempt to kill them and eat them? Would this not be deemed a man-eating leopard? Just 4 weeks ago a leopard attacked a Maasai child on Mt Gelai in his hut at night and tried to make off with him. The leopard ended up a mishkaki and fortunately the child not much worse for wear! "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Plenty of recorded leopard/human attacks on record. Not least amongst the fairly recent ones in RSA was a leopard nailed a child as he was walking to school in Skukuza village in the KNP a few years ago & another dropping from a tree into a truckload of labourers as they were entering the KNP also a few years ago. IIRC, one of the labourers stabbed it to death with a screwdriver as the cat was doing his mad chainsaw act on some of the other staff. | |||
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Nope, in all honesty I have not heard of this most recent case nor of any other that may have preceded it. The one that hit the headlines (Tarangire) was splashed all over the news but that was at least a decade ago and you must remember it. I have heard of numerous Hyena attacks on children and elderly people while walking to and from their villages and of the attempts, some successful, of breaking into their huts and making the kill. Have heard of numerous leopard attacks in broad daylight on stock (goats & sheep) but the totos have always managed to get away unscathed. | |||
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I don't doubt you at all but in all honesty, I regularly hear of leopard attacks on humans. I would say at least 3-4 a year just from our Natron concession (the others all being GR so small chance of that happening there). Usually the cat is quickly dspatched by mob justice. Yes the Tarangire incident was about 5 years ago. They had a lion incident about 4 weeks ago! "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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In 1999 or 2000 (?) there was a broadly reported case of a young park ranger being killed in RSA by an old, malnourished Leopard who was hanging around a park bridge. The Leopard was still eating him when someone from the tour bus finally got another ranger to come with a gun and kill the Leopard. I flew into Windhoek next to a lady who was returning from the funeral. This incident happened IFO a bus full of tourists. Really a widely reported and tragic case. Oh NO!  Did I just contribute to a JOLO thread???Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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not really- she/he, like Elvis, has left the house. guess they couldn't stand the harsh truth of reality. WTF mountain lion, indeed!  Forrest Gump is alive and well in the UK( stupid is as stupid does) Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Ok I'll have to troll through pages to find your reply..... BUT .... How about you responding to the other question about you deliberately not mentioning the fact that leopards are common in many areas and there is a lot of conflict with people in many areas in Africa and India? How many jungles have you walked and camped in ans slept in huts, villages, tents etc. in your efforts to champion wildlife conservation? Regarding Dr. Kat - I have tried to ask him many times but he does not reply. Now he has banned me from his page while he continues to spread his lies and collect money for a good life for himself, claiming that he wants to save lions in Nigeria!
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I have actually set foot in Africa. I went to South Africa and spent time in Johannesberg with family where we shopped in the malls, went on a brewery visit, ate out and went to one of the mines where I spent a small fortune on tanzanite and red tiger eye jewellery. We then spent a night at the lion park in Johannesberg and visited a crocodile farm. I had no idea what crocodile farm actually meant when we went, I thought a kind of zoo with just crocs. But no they were farmed for meat and skin. Do I have a problem with this? No, as long as they are sustainable. Then we spent time in the Kruger Park calling at a store on the way that dealt in furniture made with animal skin and had a huge warehouse of animal ‘trophies’. I have never ever seen anything like it in my life and did not like it one bit if I’m honest. I spoke to the shop owner whilst there and enquired where all these animals come from. I was told that every one of them had died from natural causes, ie, none of them had been hunted. Did I believe him, no not entirely! They had several lions, lioness’s and lion cubs available to buy for what honestly was very little money considering. Apparently the white lion cub they had had died of an unknown disease at the lion park and the others he said he didn’t know but had all relevant paperwork. He also said that two of them, a lion and lioness were sold to a man selling his house and that having these trophy animals displayed in his hallway would help sell his house. Really !! The Kruger Park was absolutely wonderful and we saw many animals, unfortunately no cheetah or leopard but we did see lioness’s on our last morning on the way back to the airport. Unfortunately one of them had come off worse in a tussle with a porcupine but we reported our sighting at the gate as we left. We paid conservation fees every day we were there, stayed in gorgeous accommodation with rustlings in the roof, spent plenty of money on souvenirs, had carvery every day, took fabulous photos and enjoyed every minute of it. Unfortunately we have not had the opportunity to go back yet but plan to go back to Africa next year. We are not sure whether to go to Kenya and see what is happening with the wildlife there ourselves or go to one of the countries where I have had the kind offers from members here to spend some time on a hunting reserve and see what the situation is for ourselves. Either way I have been to Africa before and am concerned enough about the wildlife to investigate further as soon as we get the opportunity. | |||
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JBrown, Thank you for your reply. ‘You said hunters won't protect lions if they are not allowed to hunt them. You have to understand, hunting is a form of husbandry. No one cares more about the well being of animals than those who depend on them for sustenance(in the case of lion hunting it is monetary or spiritual sustenance). Hunters have to work to protect a lot of animals and the fact that every person has limited resources dictates that hunters work to protect the animals that they hunt.’ I completely comprehend what you are saying here. Not many people have unlimited funds and therefore choose to support the causes that are closest to their heart or affect them the most. Money aside I think though that when we are talking about level of care it is a little debatable what level a hunter actually cares about a lion at. Take myself for example I care enough about the lion to fight for their survival whether they remain huntable or not. The hunter will stop fighting for their survival if they are no longer huntable, therefore it appears the level of caring stops there. ‘It is important to keep in mind that the most important of hunting's contributions towards conservation is the fact that it places a value on the animals that are hunted. To poor people the world over animals that don't have some type of value beyond their intrinsic value have a name: "pests". When animals are seen to have value beyond their intrinsic values they automatically gain political clout, and they and their habitats are protected. Intrinsic value is a foreign concept in the third world.(see below)’ Again I comprehend what you say here and taking it at face value and assuming that monies paid by hunters are indeed contributing towards the fight to save the lion I can only say it isn’t enough is it? The lion population still continues to decline despite hunters efforts to put a halt on this. It appears to me that the governments of said countries are not doing enough, what the hunters do is not enough and what the antis do is not enough. Despite everyone’s efforts the lion still declines. To claim that small successes in the hunting community are making a difference is false. If it were true lion numbers would be on the increase, not decrease. ‘Suggestions like this sound crass, but he does have a point. If you traveled there you would quickly learn that the vast majority of Africans see no value in any animal beyond what it offers to them. If they see the animals as a detriment(either through danger or destruction to property) they would be happy to see them all killed. And if you ask, "but doesn't the _____ have a right to be here?" they will say, "no, the animals belong in the parks."’ As you can see from the post above I have spent some time in Africa but honestly did not have conversations with anyone in these parks or outside of them about the values they place on wildlife. Hopefully in the future as also stated in the above post I will have the opportunity to do so. | |||
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Bwanamich, ‘Jo believes that us humans have less rights than animals on this earth; we belong in parks and the animals should always have priority over all matters regarding land use and human wildlife conflict’ That’s not what I believe at all. I believe that ways should be found for animals and humans to co-exist together. I do raise my eyebrows though when people react in the way they do to animal / human conflict! You know if you go into their territory you can’t expect not to get bitten! Just as if you walk into my house uninvited you’re going to get your ass kicked! | |||
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Todd, There is little point in us going round in circles about the lion hunt I quoted in Mozambique. I have been assured by the operator it is a wild lion hunt, you will not accept that and claim it is a scam. We are never going to reach agreement on this issue. ‘Now let's take it a step further. Lion hunt success rates are often as low as 20%. My hunt last year was a result of a previous hunter failing to connect on his lion. There was only one cat on the quota, but if a hunter does not succeed, that quota has already been paid for by the outfitter so obviously, the hunt will be offered again. That's exactly what happened to me. So, now take all those fees I quoted, apply them to the first hunter who didn't score, and subtract out the Lion Trophy fee of $10,000. Add the two hunts together and now you start to see what that one single lion actually generated in terms of revenue. Specifically, the first hunt was approximately $50,800 with mine being $60,800. So that one single solitary lion, that was a post pride holding solitary transient, no longer contributing to the gene pool since he was no longer holding a pride and breeding, generated something on the order of $111,600 between the two hunts. Certainly a far cry from the $3,500 trophy fee you cited. Since he was a solitary transient and post pride, the realities are that he would soon have fallen victim to the natural order of things, growing weaker and weaker to the point that another lion, or even hyenas would have taken him out and eaten him. Sure that's the way of nature. There is no such thing as dying in your sleep due to old age in the African wild lands. Would you have preferred that revenue that will largely go towards conservation have been lost to a poacher's snare or to fill the belly of a few hyena?’ I saw a report somewhere recently that claims as little as 4% of a hunt actually goes to conservation. I will look for it. From a personal point of view I would prefer he had fallen victim to the natural order of things, not poachers, that’s not natural. | |||
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Fujotopu, bwanamich, shakari, lionhunter, Thank you for the info on leopards attacking humans. Nakihunter, ‘How about you responding to the other question about you deliberately not mentioning the fact that leopards are common in many areas and there is a lot of conflict with people in many areas in Africa and India?’ I didn’t mention leopard being common because it is my belief and research points this way that the leopard is not common. The red list has it listed as near threatened and unless anyone can give me a reason they have to falsely list this then I have to go with this. ‘How many jungles have you walked and camped in ans slept in huts, villages, tents etc. in your efforts to champion wildlife conservation?’ I've not done any conservation work in Africa, wish i had. I have slept in tents and mud huts there though and contributed to the economy and conservation. ‘Regarding Dr. Kat - I have tried to ask him many times but he does not reply.’ And you think I can do what about this? I do not control Dr Kat and nor am I in contact with him as you seem to think. | |||
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Why are you evading answering my questions about how much YOU have donated to any conservation cause? And if you are so ignorant about leopards, which makes you think that you know anything about lions? | |||
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Jolou Get yourself a copy of Peter Flack's DVD "The South African Conservation Success Story". Watch the whole thing. If you have a genuine interest in the conservation of wildlife on the continent it will be enlightening. JCHB | |||
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Jolo You are again being evasive and less than honest. If you really wanted to, you can get litterally thousands of info sources about leopards being common in many areas! Just go to India - Mumbai - the largest city in India and one of the most crowded on earth. Go to Borovile - Sanjay Gandhi national park - and check out the local villages surrounding the park. Why villages - just the suburbs! http://www.mumbaimirror.com/ar...d-in-my-balcony.html Here is one incident from 2012 - in someones balcony, backyard etc. with a 3 year old child. Would you like a wild leopard in your backyard walking past your child's tricycle in broad daylight? You call this "endangered"? Yes - the humans are the endangered species in this case. I have some more links for you fficial&client=firefox-a#client=firefox-a&hs=9b3&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=sanjay+gandhi+national+park-leopard+problem&oq=Sanjay+gandhi+national+park%2Bleopard&gs_l=serp.1.1.0i30l4.5441.11363.1.17214.27.27.0.0.0.19.400.7270.2-23j3j1.27.0...0.0...1c.1.9.psy-ab.rTV6rLH55rM&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45373924,d.aGc&fp=b94c6572d2603ba8&biw=1173&bih=790" target="_blank">https://www.google.co.nz/searc...ba8&biw=1173&bih=790 Let us see if you have the integrity to review the information and still say that the leopard is NOT common in many areas in Africa and India. Regarding Dr.Kat - he is your Lion Aid pal. You are on his website. How about you challenging him on his dishonesty instead of condemning us hunters who are honest, law abiding and contributing genuinely to conservation! BTW - what kind of huts were they in Africa? 5 star tourist huts or remote poor village huts?  "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Jo belongs to that band of idiots who think the world only revoloves around them. They have absolutely no grip on reality. They live in their own convoluted little world. All one has to do is look at those running Lionaid, PETA, HSUS and the like. Can any of you really make any sense of what they are doing? | |||
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Naki: Don't confuse Leopard attacks and man-eating Leopards - they are two totally different issues. As you well know Leopards are known to co-exist with humans, i.e. they will readily forage the village dustbins in the cover of darkness but will however defend themselves if they feel threatened and simply because they may have scratched and mauled someone does not classify them to be man-eaters. | |||
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Ever heard of quid pro quo Saeed? No more answers from me to your questions until you answer some of the ones i have asked you!! I have already answered the money and conservation question many times over here though ! | |||
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I'll have a look and see if i can get a copy. Thank you. | |||
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Unfortunately i am heading off to a meeting in a few minutes so haven't time to read or comment on the links you have provided right now. I will however look and comment when i get back. India? I wasn't making any reference to India. No i wouldn't like a leopard walking in my back garden for sure, but there again i wouldn't move into an area where that could happen. I am on the lion aid website? Show me where!! The huts and tents i stayed in were at the lion park and in the kruger park and whilst not 'roughing it' they were basic. They certainly weren't the luxurious hunting reserve lodges and accomodation i have seen whilst browsing the web. | |||
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There he/she goes again. Evading answering our questions, because he/she is too busy attending meetings in a bar! Careful not to get too drunk  | |||
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Jolo Your evasive nature and lack of integrity is quite astounding! Firstly - YOU brough in the subject of leopard into this thread. Now face up and answer the question - why were you being devious and untruthful? Lion Aid site - of course you will not see any of my posts. I have been banned remember? No desenting comment is permitted. Why? Why do you not challenge Dr.Kat for an honest debate with hunters based on facts rather than banning all hunters while the site villifies hunters as evil monsters. How many of your bunny kissing friends have suggested that hunters should be shot etc.??? "Pretty basic" for a Lion park "hut" is actually minimum 2 star quality as you will have comfortable beds, at least a fan, electricity, running water, flush toilet and restaurant / table served food. Genuine "basic" is to sleep on a mat on the floor, the toilet is the great outdoors and water is in a bucket drawn from a well or a pump or from a river / stream. Food is often carried in a pack or cooked in a small camp or village hearth. None of you so called conservationsits really care about working for the environment. You just sit in a comfortable office or home and troll the web. You cannot walk for 3 days into remote wilderness with a pack, camping out. You condemn and pass judgement on hunters who are out in the bush being real close to the wilderness. You have no clue what conservation of true wilderness & its wildlife really feels like. You have not been there! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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No surprise there. If you don't believe me, just take our own Jolo and Dr. Kat behaviour on his own page by banning anyone who disagrees with him. Just as I have said before, these people have no integrity, no honour, no common sense. A stoned drug addict has more sense than this lot. | |||
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Having had chance to look at your links provided please take note of what i have said prior regarding leopard attacks. Quote from me :-
And another quote from me:-
I never stated i could not find any for India, i stated i was struggling to find any for Africa. Your links only prove my struggle. On to your next post.
Yes i mentioned the leopard,cheetah and lion all in the same sentence. Where was i being devious? Where was i being untruthful? I quoted the leopard as being on the red list, nothing more. When it comes to evasive i think you had better look towards some members of AR! certain members have evaded every question i have asked and some just cherry picked. When it comes to dishonesty i have also proved a few members of AR to be blatant liars so i again would suggest before you cast stones check you're not living in a greenhouse!
Lion Aid has absolutely nothing to do with me or this discussion. I have stated many times i have no control over what lion aid do and will no longer respond to barbs about them. Some of my friends think hunters should be shot yes. I'm not going to lie to you and tell you any different. Would they actually do it though, hell no!
Beds, yes, comfortable, no, fan, no, electricity, yes, running water, not in the tent, toilet, not in the tent, restaurant/table served food, no, snack bar open til 6pm, yes.
Before i pass a judgement or form an opinion i like to get my ducks in a row. So where are you typing from in New Zealand? Are you sat in your comfy home with all the mod cons or are you in a basic (your version) tent with no electricity and no running water? I'm pretty sure it's not the latter as you would not have charge in your laptop, phone, ipad, whatever device you are using to type. How much of your year is spent in the conditions you mentioned above doing actual conservation work, not just hunting? How much of your hunting trip is spent in the luxurious lodges i read so much about? If you couldn't hunt for whatever reason would you still be out there doing any conservation work or would your agenda for doing any have gone? | |||
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Jo, We don't expect you to pass judgment. To do that we will be assuming you have some intelligence and common sense. You and Dr. Kat have already proved to us, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are incapable of this normal human behavior. | |||
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A quick google search for 'leopard populations in Africa' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard Not a huge fan of wikipedia but working my way down the list so brief summary:-
http://www.safarinow.com/cms/a...an-leopard/irie.aspx Brief summary :-
http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/15954/0 Summary:-
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.../08/090811143838.htm
Also
As a result of :-
http://www.panthera.org/species/leopard Summary:-
http://www.wildlifeextra.com/g...africa-lions.html#cr Summary:-
http://www.largecarnivoresafrica.com/leopard/ Summary:-
Also
And :-
That's the first page of answers, i haven't gone any further. Other than the leopard conservation project which has had small success in one area i see nothing but decline, decline, decline!! | |||
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Jo, Tell us what project you have financed that has increased the number of leopards. | |||
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Yea, I've seen that 50,000 number before in regards to leopard numbers. But I distinctly remember it having a "4" in front of the 50,000 number!  This is my last post on this thread. Spending a few days shopping in the RSA malls, and a couple of nights in KNP gives one about the same perspective on African wildlife as drinking a six pack of Guiness from cans teaches one what it's like to be born and raised in Ireland!! Researching the internet where the VAST majority of information is biased toward the pseudo science spoon fed to the masses in politically correct soundbites will never give you a perspective on what is really going on on the ground. KNP, while a great tourist destination, is quite different from going to the truly wild areas of Moz, Zim, Zam, and Tanz whereby you can see with your own eyes, void of PC bias, how the wild areas surrounding the national parks, which provide buffer areas between the parks and farmers' settlements, are being supported 100% by hunters' dollars. Remove hunters and their dollars from those areas, and see how long it takes for the settlements to abut the park boundaries. Those areas will quickly become void of all wildlife and filled with goats and cattle. What the hell do you think the entire battle with the Masai is all about? Their cattle on the land instead of wildlife. It is quite obvious to me, that you are not taking any of this seriously. You may think you are, but your aren't. I've read a lot about London. I've even flown into and out of there several times back when I was still flying for the airlines. Ate some fish and chips as well!! Do you think I have a clue of what it's really like to be a "Londoner"? Not a chance. Reading about London on the internet, I'm seeing the city through the filter of someone else's perspective. How do I know if I'm getting an accurate read on the place unless I know the writer's agenda and influences. That's what is happening with you Jo concerning the great cats of Africa and hunting in general. Your internet research is tainted by the motivations of the researchers. Example: Dr. Kat's refusal to respond to and answer opposing opinions. If he wasn't pushing an agenda, and his research and postion were based in fact, he should revel in responding to such challenges. How many times have I read reviews of New York City as being a shinning city that never sleeps, with everything in the world to do from shows to shopping to fine dining, etc. Yet, as a country boy, which I have been all my life, every time I've been there, I couldn't wait to leave. I find it rude, dirty, crowded, with no redeeming qualities. (Sorry NY folks, nothing personal. I find all cities the same way as I prefer open country side, wildlife, and trees). If all I knew about NY was what I had read, and maybe a single trip taken with a well orchestrated tour designed to show all the highlights and hide the gritty underbelly, I'd have a distorted view of what really went on there. According to the fashion and dining magazines, it's the greatest city. I absolutely hate it!! Go to Africa. The wild Africa, not RSA. Not even Harare. Got to the Zambezi Valley into the safari areas, not the high density wildlife areas and national parks that cater to photographic tourists. See those marginal areas that only hunters are willing to spend the time and money on to ensure conservation. It's easy to spend money riding around in a multi seat cruiser, taking pictures in densely populated wildlife areas. The safari areas are not like that. Animal populations there are natural, not artificially supported in order to provide good viewing for the shutter bug. To put a fine point on it, that you will not spend the time and money to go visit and see the places with your own eyes is making my point exactly!! You don't see the value for your money and time in these areas. BUT HUNTERS DO!!! In short, until you make a few trips to these areas and get a real feel for the true wild areas of Africa, you simply don't know what you are talking about. Every poster here who has taken the time to respond to you in reasonable terms has told you the same thing. We've seen the tourist spots. We've seen the BS internet stories. We've also seen the real wild areas and know what is published for the masses is ridiculously off the mark. | |||
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I don't consider myself an expert on anything but personally, I'd have thought that leopard must be one of the most successful, numerous & wide spread large predators on the planet.  I also wonder where in Africa (as opposed to the internet) Jo has SEEN decline, decline, decline. Sounds like at least a degree of armchair quarterbacking to me. | |||
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Jolo Firstly not one hunting trip of mine was spent in a luxury lodge or even a modern home. Every single hunt was either tent camp in the wilderness or an "A" frame bush hut or a bivy in the bush or an old sheapard's hut or a farm house on some occasions AND on may occadions village huts, cow sheds, sheep pens etc. near wild country. Before you post such rubbish why don't you check my history on AR and my recent posts over the last 3 months. That will tell you that I have supported conservation though I have done little hunting in over a year due to shoulder surgery. Check the Asian Hunting & Birds forums in particular! I have probably visited national parks and sanctuaries to watch wildlife about twice or thrice as much as I have done hunting trips. A few hundred trips I would guess - without a gun in hand. I have personally walked from 7,000 feet elevevation to 15,000 feet in the himalayas WITHOUT a firearm - sleeping in village huts and court yards! I doubt you have climbed 800 feet in elevation in true wild country carrying your own pack. You are the one cherry picking information by quoting studies done in areas where leopard human contact is high - in farming country. What about remote wilderness country? Your assertion that " Again these deaths are no doubt a result of human encroachment onto the animals natural territory." is just plain rubbish. Is someone's verandah and back yard near a kid's tricycle in a suburb of Mumbai a leopard's natural territory? You need to visit a variety of leopard (& lion & tiger) habitats to understand how these cats patrol their territory and move around. It is commonly believed that tigers patrola round 50 sq miles on an average. But you go to Nagarhole / Kabini and it is 5 sq miles per tiger or less! You go to the Garhwal himalayas & it is more like 100 sq miles per tiger (excluding the Terrai). Urban conflict with leopards is common in Africa as well and gets reported mostly in local media and very rarely in national media (same is the case in India). I have mentioned this before - most national parks in Africa and India were established by hunters and their associates to conserve wildlife. Over 80% of Indias national parks were shooting preserves of former Maharajas! ___________________________ Jolo said ...
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English women like Joanne get brought up anti-hunting. It's a residual English class culture thing. Despite the amount of typing going on, there is no discussion actually taking place. I will make the observation that anti-hunting types, even the fairly benign ones like our Joanne, in my experience have always been the people who know the least about animals. Hunters know all about animals. It is their passion. Anti-hunters have no real interest in animals, which is why they cannot tell the difference between a mountain lion and an african lion. What they are interested in is elevating themselves socially above others by portraying themselves as being more civilised by comparison, showing their concern for the poor creatures hunted and their distaste for unenlightened uncivilised types that hunt them. All this does is emphasize the gulf between Joanne and the natural world she claims to care about, yet paradoxically, knows so little about and has no interaction with. Our Jo has been to South Africa. She went to some shopping centres. And a crocodile farm. Compare this with the level of intereaction everybody else on this forum has with truly wild animals and the African wilderness, and her efforts on this whole thread become terribly embarrassing. Joanne, if you actually cared as much as you pretend, or think you do, you wouldnt be on here arguing with the people who spend so much money and time, both enjoying African wildlife and contributing to its preservation. I understand that you cannot get over the seemingly contradictory notion that hunting something can contribute to a species' longetivity; or that where animals have no value, they will be destroyed quickly by the local populations that didn't grow up with those Disney movies. You simply think hunters are being self serving, this is plain. but that is because you fundementally misunderstand hunting. Your attitude to hunting itself seeps through, although you claim that it doesnt bother you when it the species is 'sustainable'. You really think that hunters go hunting because it is 'fun'. You wrote that. More than once I think. It's not fun. Sometimes it's hard physical labour like digging ditches. It is mostly always uncomfortable. Sometimes dangerous. Why do people do it then? You ask - its for teh trophies you think, so one can lord it over someone else who didnt get a bigger one, a more expensive one - a rarer one. Sometimes, in a very few occassions this might be true. There are mediocre personalities in every field. For the meat, yes, a lot hunt for the meat. Because it has meaning for them. You are uncomfortable with the killing and death itself. Hunters are closer to death than other people and understand it better as a natural thing. But for a lot of people to hunt is to experience the only way one can have a relationship with a truely wild animal. In the wild place that it lives. Anti-hunting people will never get this because they dont care as much as hunters for the wildlife, I truly believe this. Basic lack of knowledge shows this up. Ask yourself how much you really care about wild animals if you dont even know anything about them. Joanne, Here is a test and I ask you to be honest, because I hope you are honest enough to admit if you don't know - but when is the mating period for red deer in the UK? Do you know what month it is in? No googling allowed. If you cannot answer this question, then you must understand that you have no business dabbling in these waters, upsetting these people,and potentially helping make things worse for the wildlife with your ego-driven meddling. | |||
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My friend, you are being too kind to these people. The likes of Jo have absolutely no knowledge about animals, nor do they have the capability of learning about animals. Their whole act is to show to the rest of the ignorant lot is "look how caring I am. Pay me some money so I can save the poor animals being slaughtered by those silly men who pay a lot of oney just to show how big their balls are" There you have it in a nutshell. That has always been my experience of Jo and her PETA, HSUS etc. lot. | |||
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i pretty well deduced she/he was an idiot when "they" couldn't tell the difference between a mountain lion and an African lion.that fact alone tells you this person is just plain stupid  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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That is by far the most insightful post I have read in a long, long time! Carlsen Highway, one post a month is not enough. You need to visit us more often. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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