Gentlemen,

Have you noticed how Jo has changed since she originally came over here and claimed to be only interested in facts?

These village idiots are so shallow, and so transparent, their true identity is so obvious a mile away.

They have no life, they are failures in what they normally do.

They try to make up for that by pursuing some unattenable agenda to get the some "feel good" emotions.

It really is nothing more that a sickness.

Just imagine what the world is going to be like if all of us get into int our heads to stop others doing things we don't like.

Jo, get a life, you might actually enjoy doing sometting positive.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

Have you noticed how Jo has changed since she originally came over here and claimed to be only interested in facts? ....

Yes, not a surprise at all.

Without further addressing her assumptions, I'd like to add one observation about foreigners hunting in African states that became stunningly obvious to me when I did it.

The hunting areas, at least where I've been (Zambia), are pretty much uninhabited by local people, which is largely why the game thrives there.

In my own experience, if it were not for the primitive state and abundance of insects, swamps, floods, et al., some of these areas might have long since been "civilized" and the wild game wiped out.

Ever notice why so many wildlife television shows are filmed in Kenya? What about photo safaris? I'll bet there are not so darned many tsetse flies. Those flies do their part to protect the game and its environment by keeping out people. I hated them, but was willing to pay the price.

Others have already made the point very well that foreign hunting is an industry that not only nurtures the game populations, but is a key component in local economies. We all know that, but many of the anti-s don't get it about the flies, etc.

Jo,
If you are still reading this thread, I would like to add to it. The reaction to your initial post has been owerwhelmingly hostile, and much lacking in civility. To an extent, you asked for it by posting an incorrect topic on a site devoted to African hunting. Unfortunately, all of us here at AR have been subjected to mountains of intolerance, disrespect, and abuse from those who hate the fact that we hunt, and, (rightly or wrongly), you were instantly stereotyped as the enemy.
I would agree with you that conservation is not the overriding reason that we hunt. Simply put, we ENJOY IT! Not the bloodlust, but the experience. There probably is not one single member of AR that has not had a hunt where no animals were killed, yet we still considered that hunt or hunts as a success. The undeniable fact that it is the hunters who pay the freight for wildlife conservation worldwide is a plus, not a driving force.
I was not born into a hunting family, and had no mentors. In fact, I was not allowed to own a firearm until the age of 18. Nevertheless, I am a hunter in my soul. For anyone to try and stop me from hunting is akin to denying me my birthright as a human being. I do not need to hunt to provide food for my table, but I still need to hunt!
Tim Ferrall

MacD37,

quote:

JOLO what you seem unable to realize is, we have been dealing with animal rights folks for many years, and they have always come on hunting websites with a hidden agenda. It should be no surprise that we are skittish of anyone from that side of the track.

Honestly with the odd exceptions i have found the people of AR to be polite and pretty helpful. I'm not surprised some are skittish and defensive and yes we all have an agenda hidden or otherwise. My agenda is clear and has been from the outset, i'm here to learn the other side of the story

Thank you for the rest of your post i'm taking it on board.

NAKIHUNTER,

quote:

Ok, here is the challenge, if you are genuinely open minded, honest and fair in discussing conservation. How about you posting on Lion Aid site criticising them for banning all people who post counter arguments. How about you showing AR as an example where open discussion and debate takes place? How about you condemning the emotional, prejudiced rants on that site?

That is a challenge to your integrity!

I am assuming you mean the facebook page?


Ledvm,

quote:

Jo,
Saeed is correct.

Pieter wrote a blog about me, Aaron, the Lion Conservation Task Force, and our reply to USF&W in regards to the potential uplisting of lion to endangered under the US ESA.

He had some things out of context and some things just plain wrong. I tried to reply and it never showed up on the website.

Why don't you work on getting Dr. Kat to be open and forthright before you come on here and ask WTF???

You are working here on the assumption that i have some sort of control over what Dr. Kat does and says. I haven't.

Surestrike,

quote:

This about the level of pig headed ignorance I thought I'd get from you sugar pants.

Sugar pants!! Love it, what a pearl. Deffo going to use that in convo with someone, thanks

quote:

I very succinctly explained to you how the collared game thing goes down and how it's relevant and in no way an ethical issue above and you ignored it.

Quote from my next posting in which i thank everyone.

quote:

Thank you very much to those of you who have answered my questions about the hunting of collared animals.

Huge apologies if your ego feels that it should have been singled out and thanked personally.

quote:

You know what they say. You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think!

Really? Terrible, terrible pun and to lower yourself in that way to get a rise from me? Sorry pal, not happening.

Saeed,

Here goes the part where i talk to myself as saeed is incapable of answering any questions.

quote:

Have you noticed how Jo has changed since she originally came over here and claimed to be only interested in facts?

Have is it ever occured to you to ask me where i stand on hunting these days?

quote:

They have no life, they are failures in what they normally do.

They try to make up for that by pursuing some unattenable agenda to get the some "feel good" emotions.

It really is nothing more that a sickness.

Just imagine what the world is going to be like if all of us get into int our heads to stop others doing things we don't like.

Jo, get a life, you might actually enjoy doing sometting positive.

Your definition of failure must be different to mine, must mean something good over there in the UAE.
And heres why:-
I'm the landlady of a sucessful, popular local pub, ie i run my own business. I am also a published writer, speedway articles, licensed trade articles, history etc etc. At the mo i'm working on an article about the effects the recent budget over here in the UK has had on the licensed trade and am also looking for a small unknown charity to write about. I've also been working on a piece for quite a long time now about hunting v non-hunting and all the fors and againsts.
I also run two websites, one is for my business and the other is the site of the young speedway rider i sponsor.
Let me see, what else? Oh i love to go to speedway, bikes not cars, renovate dolls houses, collect charlie bears, read avidly, im actually reading the wonders of life by prof brian cox at present. Have you read it Saeed, pretty interesting so far!
And just for the record i'm also a fully qualified learning support aassistant for special needs children although i don't (obviously) work in that field at present.
So there you have it, pretty full life and i have done all this by myself, no silver spoon in my mouth when i was born!

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
Jo,
If you are still reading this thread, I would like to add to it. The reaction to your initial post has been owerwhelmingly hostile, and much lacking in civility. To an extent, you asked for it by posting an incorrect topic on a site devoted to African hunting. Unfortunately, all of us here at AR have been subjected to mountains of intolerance, disrespect, and abuse from those who hate the fact that we hunt, and, (rightly or wrongly), you were instantly stereotyped as the enemy.
I would agree with you that conservation is not the overriding reason that we hunt. Simply put, we ENJOY IT! Not the bloodlust, but the experience. There probably is not one single member of AR that has not had a hunt where no animals were killed, yet we still considered that hunt or hunts as a success. The undeniable fact that it is the hunters who pay the freight for wildlife conservation worldwide is a plus, not a driving force.
I was not born into a hunting family, and had no mentors. In fact, I was not allowed to own a firearm until the age of 18. Nevertheless, I am a hunter in my soul. For anyone to try and stop me from hunting is akin to denying me my birthright as a human being. I do not need to hunt to provide food for my table, but I still need to hunt!
Tim Ferrall

Hi Tim,

I am indeed still reading this thread
Yep i made a huge boo boo, one i openly admit. In my haste to get answers i didn't look properly and hey presto ammo for the forum playground.
Believe me i respect your right to hunt and though i don't really understand the enjoyment you get from hunting who am i to judge?
My only concern is the wildlife and i will support what i feel is best for them. Most of you here have a very full knowledge of hunting as a conservation tool, i don't. My knowledge is mainly on the other side of the coin and whilst many here think that i should now on the knowledge given here jump onto their side, i wont. Ill take my time, research, ask questions and make a well informed decision on what i think is right.
No matter the outcome i respect each and everyone of the posters heres opinions and perhaps some of them should give that same respect.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
MacD37,

quote:

JOLO what you seem unable to realize is, we have been dealing with animal rights folks for many years, and they have always come on hunting websites with a hidden agenda. It should be no surprise that we are skittish of anyone from that side of the track.

Honestly with the odd exceptions i have found the people of AR to be polite and pretty helpful. I'm not surprised some are skittish and defensive and yes we all have an agenda hidden or otherwise. My agenda is clear and has been from the outset, i'm here to learn the other side of the story

Thank you for the rest of your post i'm taking it on board.

NAKIHUNTER,

quote:

Ok, here is the challenge, if you are genuinely open minded, honest and fair in discussing conservation. How about you posting on Lion Aid site criticising them for banning all people who post counter arguments. How about you showing AR as an example where open discussion and debate takes place? How about you condemning the emotional, prejudiced rants on that site?

That is a challenge to your integrity!

I am assuming you mean the facebook page?


Ledvm,

quote:

Jo,
Saeed is correct.

Pieter wrote a blog about me, Aaron, the Lion Conservation Task Force, and our reply to USF&W in regards to the potential uplisting of lion to endangered under the US ESA.

He had some things out of context and some things just plain wrong. I tried to reply and it never showed up on the website.

Why don't you work on getting Dr. Kat to be open and forthright before you come on here and ask WTF???

You are working here on the assumption that i have some sort of control over what Dr. Kat does and says. I haven't.

Surestrike,

quote:

This about the level of pig headed ignorance I thought I'd get from you sugar pants.

Sugar pants!! Love it, what a pearl. Deffo going to use that in convo with someone, thanks

quote:

I very succinctly explained to you how the collared game thing goes down and how it's relevant and in no way an ethical issue above and you ignored it.

Quote from my next posting in which i thank everyone.

quote:

Thank you very much to those of you who have answered my questions about the hunting of collared animals.

Huge apologies if your ego feels that it should have been singled out and thanked personally.

quote:

You know what they say. You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think!

Really? Terrible, terrible pun and to lower yourself in that way to get a rise from me? Sorry pal, not happening.

Saeed,

Here goes the part where i talk to myself as saeed is incapable of answering any questions.

quote:

Have you noticed how Jo has changed since she originally came over here and claimed to be only interested in facts?

Have is it ever occured to you to ask me where i stand on hunting these days?

quote:

They have no life, they are failures in what they normally do.

They try to make up for that by pursuing some unattenable agenda to get the some "feel good" emotions.

It really is nothing more that a sickness.

Just imagine what the world is going to be like if all of us get into int our heads to stop others doing things we don't like.

Jo, get a life, you might actually enjoy doing sometting positive.

Your definition of failure must be different to mine, must mean something good over there in the UAE.
And heres why:-
I'm the landlady of a sucessful, popular local pub, ie i run my own business. I am also a published writer, speedway articles, licensed trade articles, history etc etc. At the mo i'm working on an article about the effects the recent budget over here in the UK has had on the licensed trade and am also looking for a small unknown charity to write about. I've also been working on a piece for quite a long time now about hunting v non-hunting and all the fors and againsts.
I also run two websites, one is for my business and the other is the site of the young speedway rider i sponsor.
Let me see, what else? Oh i love to go to speedway, bikes not cars, renovate dolls houses, collect charlie bears, read avidly, im actually reading the wonders of life by prof brian cox at present. Have you read it Saeed, pretty interesting so far!
And just for the record i'm also a fully qualified learning support aassistant for special needs children although i don't (obviously) work in that field at present.
So there you have it, pretty full life and i have done all this by myself, no silver spoon in my mouth when i was born!

Bloody hell, we a female Einstein here then!

She is looking for an UNKNOWN charity.
If she does not find one, she will invent it.

Jo, sadly, if all learnign support spersonnel are like you, children have no hope.

You run a pub, why don't do that, and leave the rest of us to do what we do best.

I don't drink, do you want me to start a campaign against pubs and drinkers?

What a sad way to life. No positive your lives whatsoever, so you try to impose your convoluted sense of guilt on others.

quote:

Bloody hell, we a female Einstein here then!

She is looking for an UNKNOWN charity.
If she does not find one, she will invent it.

Jo, sadly, if all learnign support spersonnel are like you, children have no hope.

You run a pub, why don't do that, and leave the rest of us to do what we do best.

I don't drink, do you want me to start a campaign against pubs and drinkers?

What a sad way to life. No positive your lives whatsoever, so you try to impose your convoluted sense of guilt on others.

Saeed,

I'm no Einstein but I can spell and construct a sentence correctly!
I don't drink either Saeed, my God we have something in common! Feel free to start a petition against pubs and drinkers, you have every right.
Not sure what your last sentence is supposed to say but i can say i have no guilt, you?

I see you declined to ask my stance on hunting, whats the matter Saeed, afraid i won't say the things you would like me to so you can berate me?

Anyone care to comment on this :-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...ame-hunting-tanzania

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_the_maasai_b/

Jolo- your not even worth trying to talk to! I can't believe I am even responding here. you have had so much help in the past by people answering your questions and being civil. We have told you our thoughts and let yours be seen on here. Then on your website you will shut out any rational thoughts we post on there. You want to skew things and your not even worth the time or energy to talk to. Kinda like the boy who cried wolf! We don;t care anymore and go away

Jo,

You are a perfect example of the current crop of mindless individuals whose only claim to fame is making an idiot of themselves.

You stated, right when you started posting here, that you are not anti-hunting, and that you only wanted to ask questions you wish to be answered.


I could see through your cover, as you are just like your lot at lionaid.

So bloody transparent, pathetic and an utter hypocrite.

Let me ask you a straight question.

How much how donated to ANY conservation cause?

I bet ONE hunter going to hunt in Africa pays
more than ten thousands like you and your Dr. Kat!

Nube,

What can i say? Never spoken to you before on here and by the sounds of it never will again so bye and thanks.

Saeed,

Can't understand much of your post - sorry.
I do sense you're getting your royal panties in a twist though!

It is alright Jo.

We never expected you to understand simple common sense logic.

You have worked yourself into so much hate for hunters, the truth no longer matters.

If we carry your argument to its conclusion.

Stop all hunting.

Stop all animals being killed for food, including sheep, goats, cows and chickens.

Stop eating eggs. They are unborn chicks.

See what I mean when I say you are all a bunch of brainless idiots.

Join PETA, you will fit right in there.

Jo

Quote

The primary purpose is not for the meat as you often try to claim it is, it is about the thrill of the hunt and the trophy. At least be honest.

Ok I'll be honest. I do hunt for the reasons stated above. Yes the thrill and the trophy are sometime the focus of the hunt. The most spiritually satifying hunt for me though, is the annual father and son deer hunt, or redneck bonding sesion to my liberal friends. The primary focus of this hunt for me is the meat. I would pass up a trophy buck for an animal that is better eating. I think meat hunters in the U.S. are in the majority. A trophy is not the primary focus, if they get a trophy head it's a bonus.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is alright Jo.

We never expected you to understand simple common sense logic.

You have worked yourself into so much hate for hunters, the truth no longer matters.

If we carry your argument to its conclusion.

Stop all hunting.

Stop all animals being killed for food, including sheep, goats, cows and chickens.

Stop eating eggs. They are unborn chicks.

See what I mean when I say you are all a bunch of brainless idiots.

Join PETA, you will fit right in there.

Saeed,

Your posts in response to me are getting more and more illiterate, thats why i cant understand them.
Take the 4th line down, the one that starts if we carry, that sentence makes no sense at all. You might have wanted a comma and not a full stop!
You said earlier you know i am not anti-hunting and yet here you claim i am! Make your mind up Saeed!
Suggest you have a lie down before you burst a gasket!

Your thoughts on the Maasai article and petition would be highly appreciated

quote:

Originally posted by nopride2:
Jo

Quote

The primary purpose is not for the meat as you often try to claim it is, it is about the thrill of the hunt and the trophy. At least be honest.

Ok I'll be honest. I do hunt for the reasons stated above. Yes the thrill and the trophy are sometime the focus of the hunt. The most spiritually satifying hunt for me though, is the annual father and son deer hunt, or redneck bonding sesion to my liberal friends. The primary focus of this hunt for me is the meat. I would pass up a trophy buck for an animal that is better eating. I think meat hunters in the U.S. are in the majority. A trophy is not the primary focus, if they get a trophy head it's a bonus.

Dave

I respect your honesty and honestly i'm not here to judge you enjoying a hunt, taking a trophy or eating the meat of sustainable animals.
My concern is the welfare of animals which are endangered or about to become so.

quote:

My concern is the welfare of animals which are endangered or about to become so.

That's a good thing Jo. So what effective action are you proposing to help stop these animals from becoming extinct?

We already know that sterile protectionism outside of parks (and even in some parks/reserves) has been a disastrous to other species on the continent of Africa. With that in mind how do suggest that we keep the African lion from becoming extinct in it's free ranging habitat?

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Anyone care to comment on this :-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...ame-hunting-tanzania

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_the_maasai_b/

This argument has been around several years, politically motivated and upheld by anti-hunting groups.

Regarding Lions, you ought to know that more are killed by the Maasai through poisoning the carcass of any cow/steer/bull that has been taken - in most cases almost the entire pride gets wiped out; than the numbers legally hunted in accordance to regulated quotas.

The same applies for any Leopard that might take a goat but if its any consolation the culprit pays the ultimate price for, as you already know, leopards don't hold prides.

It is also worthwhile noting that almost all the areas adjacent the Parks are virtually void of scavengers (jackals, hyenas and vultures in particular)as they too feed off these poisoned carcasses. Pity the antis don't know, pretend not to know, or for the sake of convenience, blame it on the hunters as well.

PS. The minister for Natural Resources and Tourism, Khamis Kagasheki, told one newspaper this week: "If the civic leaders want to resign, they can go ahead. There is no government in the world that can just let an area so important to conservation to be wasted away by overgrazing."

PPS. OBC have been operating this area for the last 20 years and contrary to what people say or think, have managed the area exceptionally well. To the best of my knowledge they have adhered to all government requirements regarding Community Development and possibly more; have provided work for the adjacent communities and the argument as presented by the affected Maasai stands on one leg - are they complaining about a bigger slice of the cake or transit and grazing?

quote:

This argument has been around several years, politically motivated and upheld by anti-hunting groups.

Regarding Lions, you ought to know that more are killed by the Maasai through poisoning the carcass of any cow/steer/bull that has been taken - in most cases almost the entire pride gets wiped out; than the numbers legally hunted in accordance to regulated quotas.

The same applies for any Leopard that might take a goat but if its any consolation the culprit pays the ultimate price for, as you already know, leopards don't hold prides.

It is also worthwhile noting that almost all the areas adjacent the Parks are virtually void of scavengers (jackals, hyenas and vultures in particular)as they too feed off these poisoned carcasses. Pity the antis don't know, pretend not to know, or for the sake of convenience, blame it on the hunters as well.

PS. The minister for Natural Resources and Tourism, Khamis Kagasheki, told one newspaper this week: "If the civic leaders want to resign, they can go ahead. There is no government in the world that can just let an area so important to conservation to be wasted away by overgrazing."

PPS. OBC have been operating this area for the last 20 years and contrary to what people say or think, have managed the area exceptionally well. To the best of my knowledge they have adhered to all government requirements regarding Community Development and possibly more; have provided work for the adjacent communities and the argument as presented by the affected Maasai stands on one leg - are they complaining about a bigger slice of the cake or transit and grazing?

Pretty much sums it up. It's a shame that $100,000 lions are being killed with no regard to consevation or quotas for the price of $200 cow. Not to mention all the plains game wiped out because it competes for grazing land.

Jo

Scroll down to "you need to watch this movie" posted 29 March Hit the hyperlink in the first post. Scroll down to the fourth post an hit the Hunter Proud hyperlink. It will be an educational 30 minutes.

Dave

Jo is one of those who have lost all sense of logic.

She reminds me of the lady who was so against elephant hunting, she actually said "I would rather not see any elephants than having them hunted"

Perfect answer from a perfect moron.

She wanted elephants to be disappear rather than having hunted.

Jo and her friends are no different.

Is that the same woman that almost said that verbatim about the Texas scimitar oryx deal?

if it is not the same women, it is her twin, moronic sister.... it is the first time that "60 Minutes" actually got their act together and made the fools at PETA LOOK LIKE THE IDIOTS THEY ARE.

Jo

Yes, Lion Aid website or page anywhere in any forum. Any conference or meeting or personal discussion or phone or email.

Why do you not challenge Dr. Kat's prejudice and dishonesty? Why do you not post on those sites asking him to be open about factual debate with hunters rather than just ranting & raving and propagating false stories about hunters? Why not challenge him on his banning anyone who posts an opposing view?

Why? Are you afraid? Or do you support his falsehood & believe in those tactics yourself?


Quote from Jo earlier

quote:

NAKIHUNTER,

quote:
Ok, here is the challenge, if you are genuinely open minded, honest and fair in discussing conservation. How about you posting on Lion Aid site criticising them for banning all people who post counter arguments. How about you showing AR as an example where open discussion and debate takes place? How about you condemning the emotional, prejudiced rants on that site?

That is a challenge to your integrity!



I am assuming you mean the facebook page?

As usual Jo is off and hiding again! lol She likes to throw the mud but doesn't like the facts thrown back to her

she reminds me of Forrest Gumpf- stupid is as stupid does.... can't tell the difference between a mountain lion and an African lion- but she presumes to question the ethics of those that can.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

My concern is the welfare of animals which are endangered or about to become so.

That's a good thing Jo. So what effective action are you proposing to help stop these animals from becoming extinct?

We already know that sterile protectionism outside of parks (and even in some parks/reserves) has been a disastrous to other species on the continent of Africa. With that in mind how do suggest that we keep the African lion from becoming extinct in it's free ranging habitat?

Let's be clear here and honest, noone can guarantee 100% that any course of action is going to save the wild African lion.

I think also it is a fallacy to state 'free ranging habitat'. No animal truly roams freely with no threat to its existence from mankind.

The African lion as we all know faces a range of threats including disease, poaching, loss of habitat etc etc. I'm sure you would agree that even hunting not managed properly can / could be a threat.

It unfortunately is my opinion that we may well be too late to save the African lion, the populations may well have declined by too much already.

Having said that i do feel it is our (generic) duty to at least try to save them and all they stand for. I could give you 'ideal world' solutions and 'hypothetical' solutions but i honestly cannot give a 'real' world 100% chance of survival solution. Noone can. No matter how adamant hunters are that the only way the lion will survive is if hunting is allowed to continue they cannot 100% know this.

I'm sure we would all agree where disease and poaching is concerned on many strategies that could be used to prevent these things happening.

Habitat and hunting is where we may disagree and quite strongly.

I have said many times that whilst i personally do not like hunting and would not hunt that people have every right to do so as long as the animal they are hunting is sustainable. I have heard too many horror stories about illegal hunts, bad hunts etc to believe that hunting is the solution. However i have taken on board and can see some validity in hunting when managed properly.

Habitat loss is purely down to mankind. We encroach and problems occur. It really is as simple as that and it is something that is never going to change. Even building hunting lodges is encroaching whether you like it or not.

The ideals that prevail here that taking land off people to build lodges and that as long as hunting is allowed to continue the lion will survive is the stuff of fairy tales. I do not have the answers but i do know that it will take more than people killing lions to save them.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Anyone care to comment on this :-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...ame-hunting-tanzania

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_the_maasai_b/

This argument has been around several years, politically motivated and upheld by anti-hunting groups.

Regarding Lions, you ought to know that more are killed by the Maasai through poisoning the carcass of any cow/steer/bull that has been taken - in most cases almost the entire pride gets wiped out; than the numbers legally hunted in accordance to regulated quotas.

The same applies for any Leopard that might take a goat but if its any consolation the culprit pays the ultimate price for, as you already know, leopards don't hold prides.

It is also worthwhile noting that almost all the areas adjacent the Parks are virtually void of scavengers (jackals, hyenas and vultures in particular)as they too feed off these poisoned carcasses. Pity the antis don't know, pretend not to know, or for the sake of convenience, blame it on the hunters as well.

PS. The minister for Natural Resources and Tourism, Khamis Kagasheki, told one newspaper this week: "If the civic leaders want to resign, they can go ahead. There is no government in the world that can just let an area so important to conservation to be wasted away by overgrazing."

PPS. OBC have been operating this area for the last 20 years and contrary to what people say or think, have managed the area exceptionally well. To the best of my knowledge they have adhered to all government requirements regarding Community Development and possibly more; have provided work for the adjacent communities and the argument as presented by the affected Maasai stands on one leg - are they complaining about a bigger slice of the cake or transit and grazing?

I am perfectly aware that animals have been poisoned to protect live stock etc. I also know that their are charities / organisations out there trying to work with the Maasai to educate them and prevent this from happening.

I have some problems with the image here that you (generic) and the government and the company purchasing this land are trying to portray here.

Are people expected to believe that a company in UAE are so interested and concerned about the conservation of species in Africa that they are willing to purchase land which according to report is very low on lion and scavengers etc to build a hunting lodge on?
Or are they seeing it as a huge money making business where the animals are actually doing quite well and a few bucks can be made?

The Maasai have lived on that land for how many years? Thousands plus!!! And it is perfectly acceptable for the government to say 'oh hello, we're taking your land, your homes and your living and you can just suck it up?'

And as an aside but not a small one the maasai have managed that land and animals are still there for thousands of years and yet all of a sudden they are ruining it? Call me cynical but that has nothing to do with a company coming forward and saying 'i want that land and you stand to make X amount of dollars' does it?

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:

quote:

This argument has been around several years, politically motivated and upheld by anti-hunting groups.

Regarding Lions, you ought to know that more are killed by the Maasai through poisoning the carcass of any cow/steer/bull that has been taken - in most cases almost the entire pride gets wiped out; than the numbers legally hunted in accordance to regulated quotas.

The same applies for any Leopard that might take a goat but if its any consolation the culprit pays the ultimate price for, as you already know, leopards don't hold prides.

It is also worthwhile noting that almost all the areas adjacent the Parks are virtually void of scavengers (jackals, hyenas and vultures in particular)as they too feed off these poisoned carcasses. Pity the antis don't know, pretend not to know, or for the sake of convenience, blame it on the hunters as well.

PS. The minister for Natural Resources and Tourism, Khamis Kagasheki, told one newspaper this week: "If the civic leaders want to resign, they can go ahead. There is no government in the world that can just let an area so important to conservation to be wasted away by overgrazing."

PPS. OBC have been operating this area for the last 20 years and contrary to what people say or think, have managed the area exceptionally well. To the best of my knowledge they have adhered to all government requirements regarding Community Development and possibly more; have provided work for the adjacent communities and the argument as presented by the affected Maasai stands on one leg - are they complaining about a bigger slice of the cake or transit and grazing?

Pretty much sums it up. It's a shame that $100,000 lions are being killed with no regard to consevation or quotas for the price of $200 cow. Not to mention all the plains game wiped out because it competes for grazing land.

$100,000 lions?
Where have you been lion hunt shopping?
I got this email the other day, (god knows why i am on their mailing list but i am)and coincidently it was for a lion hunt.

'I am able to exclusively offer the remaining wild lion tag to prospective clients.

Our area encompasses just over 1 000 000 acres with roughly 65 miles of waterfront. The safari will be over a period of 16 days.

Hunting Method: Baited/Blind, the use of lighting as well as calling equipment is permitted.

Professional hunter will be myself.

Pricing includes:
*16 Days: 14 full days of hunting.
*All meals as well as all drinks
*Fully operational and licensed Professional hunter as well as hunting vehicle
*Airport pick up from Tete as well as drop off (1,45 min drive and an additional 2 hours by boat)
*Trophy fee ($3500) and Tag Fee ($4000) for 1xLion male
*Trophy and Tag fee for 1xHippo (US non exportable) (intended for bait)
*Rifle License
*Hunting Card
*Trophy transport to exporter
*Concession fee
*Should the flight from O.R Tambo arrive in Tete after 1 in the afternoon, I will include 1 nights accomodation in Tete for a departure the following morning.

Pricing Excludes:
*All Taxidermy and shipping of trophies
*Accomodation in Johannesburg should it be needed due to arrival times
*Additional trophies
*Non hunting Observers: $250 per day (also all inclusive)
*Any international airfare, as well as commercial flight to Tete

Pricing Total: $42 000'

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Jo is one of those who have lost all sense of logic.

She reminds me of the lady who was so against elephant hunting, she actually said "I would rather not see any elephants than having them hunted"

Perfect answer from a perfect moron.

She wanted elephants to be disappear rather than having hunted.

Jo and her friends are no different.

Didn't quite lie down long enough Saeed, still some English language mistakes there.

Regarding any animal not just the elephant i have always stated if hunting was their salvation i would support it.

Your losing credibility for yourself and fellow hunters telling bare faced lies about me Saeed.

quote:

Originally posted by nopride2:
Jo

Scroll down to "you need to watch this movie" posted 29 March Hit the hyperlink in the first post. Scroll down to the fourth post an hit the Hunter Proud hyperlink. It will be an educational 30 minutes.

Dave

I will make time to watch it this evening.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Didn't quite lie down long enough Saeed, still some English language mistakes there.

Then perhaps you should type him a message in his native tongue. I'm sure your wisdom will shine through.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Your posts in response to me are getting more and more illiterate, thats why i cant understand them.
Take the 4th line down, the one that starts if we carry, that sentence makes no sense at all. You might have wanted a comma and not a full stop!
You said earlier you know i am not anti-hunting and yet here you claim i am! Make your mind up Saeed!
Suggest you have a lie down before you burst a gasket!

Your thoughts on the Maasai article and petition would be highly appreciated

You show a lot of nerve being critical of this man's command of the English language -- not being a native speaker. He certainly speaks and writes well by anyone's standards. I would assume correctly that Saeed's English is by far better than your Arabic. This typically means that one is losing an argument when they make a personal attack.

Now Jo, did you really expect to post something as absurd as you did, and get love from the members here? Surely you're not that naive.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Jo

Yes, Lion Aid website or page anywhere in any forum. Any conference or meeting or personal discussion or phone or email.

Why do you not challenge Dr. Kat's prejudice and dishonesty? Why do you not post on those sites asking him to be open about factual debate with hunters rather than just ranting & raving and propagating false stories about hunters? Why not challenge him on his banning anyone who posts an opposing view?

Why? Are you afraid? Or do you support his falsehood & believe in those tactics yourself?


Quote from Jo earlier

quote:

NAKIHUNTER,

quote:
Ok, here is the challenge, if you are genuinely open minded, honest and fair in discussing conservation. How about you posting on Lion Aid site criticising them for banning all people who post counter arguments. How about you showing AR as an example where open discussion and debate takes place? How about you condemning the emotional, prejudiced rants on that site?

That is a challenge to your integrity!



I am assuming you mean the facebook page?

I paid a visit to the lion aid page on facebook recently to see if indeed opposing views were deleted as had been suggested. I saw posts made by opposing views including at least one by your own Aaron Nielson.

I personally do not believe Dr Kat is dishonest and nor do i think he is prejudice. He opposes your views and provides research etc to back him just as you oppose him and provide research to back yourselves.

Perhaps you ought to look to yourselves a little (generic), a lot of the vile spewing against Lion Aid here is completely false and perhaps even libelous. Certainly a lot of what is said about me on a personal level is untrue and completely unfounded, maybe you could show your integrity and speak out about that.

I actually spoke to Lion Aid about your concerns on posting on their page and as i expected polite discussion is always welcomed there and will not be deleted or blocked.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Didn't quite lie down long enough Saeed, still some English language mistakes there.

Then perhaps you should type him a message in his native tongue. I'm sure your wisdom will shine through.

I'd have to run it through a translator first. I can only hold my own in 4 languages, Arabic not being one of them.

And Saeed knows i am referring to his 'in anger' typing. Saeed's English is just peachy until he gets in a strop with me.

[/QUOTE]

I am perfectly aware that animals have been poisoned to protect live stock etc. I also know that their are charities / organizations out there trying to work with the Maasai to educate them and prevent this from happening.

I have some problems with the image here that you (generic) and the government and the company purchasing this land are trying to portray here.

Are people expected to believe that a company in UAE are so interested and concerned about the conservation of species in Africa that they are willing to purchase land which according to report is very low on lion and scavengers etc to build a hunting lodge on?
Or are they seeing it as a huge money making business where the animals are actually doing quite well and a few bucks can be made?

The Maasai have lived on that land for how many years? Thousands plus!!! And it is perfectly acceptable for the government to say 'oh hello, we're taking your land, your homes and your living and you can just suck it up?'

And as an aside but not a small one the maasai have managed that land and animals are still there for thousands of years and yet all of a sudden they are ruining it? Call me cynical but that has nothing to do with a company coming forward and saying 'i want that land and you stand to make X amount of dollars' does it?[/QUOTE]

JLB:

Just to be clear: There are NO hunting lodges in Tanzania as there may be in RSA and Namibia.
The TZ government does not allow hunting and photographic to mix nor is a hunting area permitted to accommodate photographic tours at the same time.

The UAE company does not run a business - the owners of the company do not need to make a profit from the wildlife in their ALLOCATED area nor have they purchased it (contrary to what people are being led to believe).
They also pay all their dues: concession and wildlife conservation, game fees UP FRONT and whatever hunts are conducted are non-profit; it is basically a private hunting reserve. Community development and contributions within their jurisdiction are all met within the prescribed requirements.

It might be of further interest to you, your followers and any other bystander for that matter, that land in TZ cannot be purchased outright by any individual, indigenous or otherwise; it may only be leased and the new leasing laws limit tenure to 33 years compared to the previous 99 year lease.

The Maasai therefore do not own a single square inch of territory - they were given the right to roam the free tracts of land and still have the possibility to do so. What these people fail to apprehend is that they do not have any God given right to herd their livestock wherever and whenever they please, which includes among others, land set aside for the continued conservation of wildlife (National Parks and Reserves) and areas designated for or established agricultural projects.

Pray tell us in what way do the Maasai manage the land - I for one am squirming with anticipated curiosity.
It would also be of interest to know the names of these Charitable Organizations of whom you speak that have embarked on educating the Maasai to stop killing the lions they have been living with for thousands of years.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Your posts in response to me are getting more and more illiterate, thats why i cant understand them.
Take the 4th line down, the one that starts if we carry, that sentence makes no sense at all. You might have wanted a comma and not a full stop!
You said earlier you know i am not anti-hunting and yet here you claim i am! Make your mind up Saeed!
Suggest you have a lie down before you burst a gasket!

Your thoughts on the Maasai article and petition would be highly appreciated

You show a lot of nerve being critical of this man's command of the English language -- not being a native speaker. He certainly speaks and writes well by anyone's standards. I would assume correctly that Saeed's English is by far better than your Arabic. This typically means that one is losing an argument when they make a personal attack.

Now Jo, did you really expect to post something as absurd as you did, and get love from the members here? Surely you're not that naive.

Erm i think you might want to take that back chuck.

1. I am referring to Saeeds 'anger typing' when replying to me not his grasp on the English language in general since his usual posts are perfecto.

2. When losing an argument people make personal attacks???? Oh dear, if only i had counted the amount of personal attacks on me including ones by Saeed!! :-0

Oops is the word i'd use for your ball clanger here.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

I am perfectly aware that animals have been poisoned to protect live stock etc. I also know that their are charities / organizations out there trying to work with the Maasai to educate them and prevent this from happening.

I have some problems with the image here that you (generic) and the government and the company purchasing this land are trying to portray here.

Are people expected to believe that a company in UAE are so interested and concerned about the conservation of species in Africa that they are willing to purchase land which according to report is very low on lion and scavengers etc to build a hunting lodge on?
Or are they seeing it as a huge money making business where the animals are actually doing quite well and a few bucks can be made?

The Maasai have lived on that land for how many years? Thousands plus!!! And it is perfectly acceptable for the government to say 'oh hello, we're taking your land, your homes and your living and you can just suck it up?'

And as an aside but not a small one the maasai have managed that land and animals are still there for thousands of years and yet all of a sudden they are ruining it? Call me cynical but that has nothing to do with a company coming forward and saying 'i want that land and you stand to make X amount of dollars' does it?[/QUOTE]

JLB:

Just to be clear: There are NO hunting lodges in Tanzania as there may be in RSA and Namibia.
The TZ government does not allow hunting and photographic to mix nor is a hunting area permitted to accommodate photographic tours at the same time.

The UAE company does not run a business - the owners of the company do not need to make a profit from the wildlife in their ALLOCATED area nor have they purchased it (contrary to what people are being led to believe).
They also pay all their dues: concession and wildlife conservation, game fees UP FRONT and whatever hunts are conducted are non-profit; it is basically a private hunting reserve. Community development and contributions within their jurisdiction are all met within the prescribed requirements.

It might be of further interest to you, your followers and any other bystander for that matter, that land in TZ cannot be purchased outright by any individual, indigenous or otherwise; it may only be leased and the new leasing laws limit tenure to 33 years compared to the previous 99 year lease.

The Maasai therefore do not own a single square inch of territory - they were given the right to roam the free tracts of land and still have the possibility to do so. What these people fail to apprehend is that they do not have any God given right to herd their livestock wherever and whenever they please, which includes among others, land set aside for the continued conservation of wildlife (National Parks and Reserves) and areas designated for or established agricultural projects.

Pray tell us in what way do the Maasai manage the land - I for one am squirming with anticipated curiosity.
It would also be of interest to know the names of these Charitable Organizations of whom you speak that have embarked on educating the Maasai to stop killing the lions they have been living with for thousands of years.[/QUOTE]

So you are telling me that they have not managed the land in some form or other?
They have ruined it then?
And yet this company is still interested in using ruined land?

Tell me why have hunters and those involved with hunting not got sainthoods yet?
As the way you (generic)make it all sound you all sure are angelic.

The Maasai may not have a god given right to the land but neither does this company or anyone else. It is not one rule for one and another for hunters et al.

Off the top of my head i cannot tell you who it was i read was working with the Masaai and other tribes etc across Africa but i will try to get back to you on this as soon as i have time to locate the articles.

quote:

Originally posted by nube:
As usual Jo is off and hiding again! lol She likes to throw the mud but doesn't like the facts thrown back to her

Life gets in the way of life sometimes :-)
Patience is a virtue, being premature is ..............

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Your posts in response to me are getting more and more illiterate, thats why i cant understand them.
Take the 4th line down, the one that starts if we carry, that sentence makes no sense at all. You might have wanted a comma and not a full stop!
You said earlier you know i am not anti-hunting and yet here you claim i am! Make your mind up Saeed!
Suggest you have a lie down before you burst a gasket!

Your thoughts on the Maasai article and petition would be highly appreciated

You show a lot of nerve being critical of this man's command of the English language -- not being a native speaker. He certainly speaks and writes well by anyone's standards. I would assume correctly that Saeed's English is by far better than your Arabic. This typically means that one is losing an argument when they make a personal attack.

Now Jo, did you really expect to post something as absurd as you did, and get love from the members here? Surely you're not that naive.

Erm i think you might want to take that back chuck.

1. I am referring to Saeeds 'anger typing' when replying to me not his grasp on the English language in general since his usual posts are perfecto.

2. When losing an argument people make personal attacks???? Oh dear, if only i had counted the amount of personal attacks on me including ones by Saeed!! :-0

Oops is the word i'd use for your ball clanger here.

The name's not Chuck, Jo. You posted something that you knew wouldn't get a whole lot of love here and I believe, as do many others, that you are simply here to stir the pot.

No oops necessary. You obviously have an ulterior motive for coming to this sight to "learn" as you call your interactions. Either you are a glutton for punishment or you truly do want to learn, I believe the former applies to you.

By the way, what in God's name is a "ball clanger?"