There has been a great deal of discussion lately about the "race" to take those RSA lions while they are still availible. Now they are, in some circles, being tagged as "previously captive". The owner of the Bowsite, Pat Lefemine, is just back and posting his experience. You can get this by going to the bowsite, then clicking on the Africa page. Or try :http/bowsite.com/bowsite/features/livehunts/lionbuff2006/. If this does not work perhaps one more savy could post the proper link.

Here is the link
Lion Bowhunt

From Day One:

quote:

Jimmy and Linda made it perfectly clear, it's fair chase or no hunt at all. That meant no hunting over bait, no dogs, thousands and thousands of acres for the lions to roam, and all of it spot and stalk.

Sounds like somebody is a little over-sensitive to the canned hunting stigma.... Spot-and-stalking a wild lion with a bow, hummm? I tracked lion once, and you just don't walk up to them, or at least I couldn't.

quote:

Both hunts conform to Safari Club rules of Fair Chase and exceed minimum requirements recently enacted by the South African Minister of Game and Parks. Equipment, methods, pending laws and ethics will be discussed during this hunt. This is one for the books..

Not the Safari Club book as I am pretty sure SCI does not recognize lions killed in South Africa or Namibia. EDIT: UEG, you are right, SA lions are recognized by SCI according to the members website, but under their own category separate from the other countries. Weird that Namibia is grouped w/SA, there is no "canned" lion hunting in Namibia is there?

I met a bowhunter on the 18th of August in Dulles while we were coming back from South Africa, who wanted to tell all that would listen about his shooting of a female lion with the bow. His story of spot and stalk etc. sounded familiar to this gentleman's story, and I wasn't convinced of his sincerity and/or of his facts, and I left him partly through his self-serving rendition. Bill: As far as SCI recognizing Lion taken there, they do recognize South Africa and Namibia as well.

I admittedly have no experience hunting lions and this is pure speculation but that old boy - trotting a few meters off the road and laying down - looked suspciously like he was hungry and waiting for a dead animal to be thrown off the truck!

oupa, that lion has clearly lived and survived in the Wild for hours and hours!

Sorry, but shooting a lion with an arrow is suicide.

They are tenacious beasts. and an arrow wounds with the hope of hitting a major artery.

I am sure it is a real kick to kill a beast with an arrow.

Yes, they may have done it 200 years ago, but my God, do it without the animal suffering.

And an animal such as a lion does not die. It suffers.

Great doing it with a bow. You are one sick bastard.

My bet is that after the shot you were safe.

Bow hunting is for non dangerous game. Dangerous game deserves your respect.

Just read/watched "Day 2"...clearly this is a canned hunt. What a spin these guys are putting on it.

From Day Two:

quote:

According to Jacque, this was a big male that had been moved to this vicinity 5 months ago...The area he was in was about 6000 acres...The way Madiakgama hunts lions is they will trap them and release them into this area of the ranch.

quote:

We turned a corner and I had to do a double take. Lying right in the middle of the dirt road was a huge male...Jimmy and Jacque met up and we began talking about what just happened. They couldn't believe it. This was a great sign and quite remarkable. The lion was hanging in this area and hopefully he'd be here tomorrow. We opted not to hunt him today. They did not think the situation was perfect. The wind was blowing hard and the lion was watching us. Also, we had already lost several hours just getting to this section. We went back for brunch.

"They couldn't believe it" - believe what, like seeing the released lion in the 6000 acre pen in which they were driving around in was a surprise?!?! I guess the lion, which I can't help but to feel sorry for, dies on Day Three.

Doesn't all wild game deserve respect? Whether it is a 15 lb duiker or a 600 lb lion it deserves respect.

How long does it take for the hangover from the dart to go away.

It will be interesting to watch this unfold. The hunter was previously a huge opponent of anything that was not completely fair chase. It seems to me that the very real possibility of the end of lion hunting has made lots of folks trade in their moral high ground for a crack at a big cat. And yes, he is spinning like a top. Thank you Jaco for providing the link. Bob.

Pretty obvious what kind of hunt it was. I clearly agree with all of the posts above. It just sounded so much like the other bow hunter's story that I came across in the Dulles airport, that it was hard to even believe in the very beginning that this was going to turn out to be any different.

Woopy Doo, free ranging Lions next to a cattle farm with low fences. If I remember correctly the fences must be electrified.

I took a look at the web site of Madiakgama at a Lion that was hunted there and I looked at his Lion photo. Perfect face and skin, no scratches, just wondering why?

I will never take any client to hunt Lion in RSA. There might be a few Lions that escape out of the Kruger, but they are very few and NW is very far from Kruger.

It amazes me to what lenght certain individuals will go to justify their "canned hunts".

On the forum where this hunt is discussed you are only allowed to post positive replies and no critisism, makes me wonder, is this guy above it.

My opinion, definately a "fair" chase hunt.

Quotes of the article.

"According to Jacque, this was a big male that had been moved to this vicinity 5 months ago."

"The way Madiakgama hunts lions is they will trap them and release them into this area of the ranch."

"The lion will typically not get over the high fence, but it will easily go under it. Either into the plains game area, or the cattle area. The neighbors will pick up the track, or they will find it on their plains game section. Then they will go dart the lion, and bring it back to this section. If I didn’t see it with my own eyes I’d not believed it."

"The lion just stared at us. He was not nervoust"

"And they were justified in going over this several times with me. American bowhunters always shoot too far back since that’s where you shoot deer. However a mid-lung shot on a whitetail is a gut shot on a lion. And a gut-shot lion is not their idea of a good time. They experienced more lion charges than they cared to share with me, including one just last week that resulted in the death of a tracker at a different ranch."

Need I say more

Jaco, Safari-hunt,
Why not forward this link to Stewart Dorrington at PHASA

Jim...an animal does not "suffer" from an arrow. Obviously, you have no bowhunting experience whatsoever. Why would you bash bowhunting is a question only you can answer but just FYI, an arrow kills by hemorrage. A shot thru the lungs will put the animal down in seconds. I shot a lioness with an arrow and she died in less than 10 seconds only making it 30 steps before expiring. Lion die very easily as do most bowshot animals as there is no trauma as with a rifle. Some don't even register being hit. They just stand and look around wondering what happened as the arrow passes thru them instantly, just before they fall over. You do not try to hit a major artery (are you kidding me with that). The shot is behind the shoulder taking out the hear/lung area which results in a quick, clean kill. Much cleaner than with a rifle I can assure you. I own and operate a safari company which specializes in bowhunting Africa and our recovery rate on bowshot game is nearly 100%. A bow and arrow is extremely effective and lethal. You shouldn't post comments about that which you know nothing about as some might think you do. I am not bashing you personally but trying to enlighten you on this subject.

Ken Moody

i have a friend just back from RSA who shot both a lion and lioness. The outfitter claim is that the lions were captured in a park, he bought them and turned them loose of his property 6 months previous. Very nice looking cats, but after looking the pictures over I can't help but wonder who the hairdresser on the ranch was. the lion had the nicest combed out mane you can imagine.

Bwanamich,

I suppose that can be done very quickly. Oops just did. Am I to understand that this hunt is happening at this very moment ? There is no dates.

Is this hunt against PHASA guidlines?

Yes, to my knowledge the hunt is happening right now.

bulldog,

In first place where do u find free roaming lions in South Africa except next to the border of Botsawana, Zimbabwe and then the boundaries of Kruger National Park?

Reading trough the post it sounds like their so called hunt on lion happens a lot.

"They experienced more lion charges than they cared to share with me"

Darting is involved and the lion was moved to another part of the farm ?? Mane is perfect and the lion doesn't show fear for humans all tell tale signs of a canned hunt.

PHASA is totally agaisnt canned hunting but lets see what happens I've sent Stewart a mail with the details. He usually checks his mail at least once a day if he is on his farm.

This is a very enlightening thread for those of us who are just starting to comprehend the reality of these canned hunts.

If I didn’t read it with my own eyes I’d not believed it. Thanks for the live posts Mr. Bowsite.

Brian

Thank you Ken Moody,

While I know nothing about this particlar lion hunt, as a bowhunter of nearly two decades it still amazes me how grossly some folks underestimate the lethality of bow and arrow or how quickly a well placed arrow will kill. Of course bowhunting lions is nothing new. Pope and Young did it with trad gear about 80 years ago. In any case I appreciate your post and I could not have said it better.

Respectfully,
gymrat

A bow is a very lethal weapon. With proper shot placement any animal can be taken down quickly and effectively, with perhaps the one exception being elephants. The issue here is in no way the choice of weapon.

OK, thats it I have no doubt that this is a canned hunt. Just downloaded the small movie.
The lion came trotting to the vehicle then they drive off a short piece while the lion moves back a little bit and makes himself comfortable.

What was he waiting for, food to be dropped from the bakkie ? If it was a rifle hunter they would have probarbly told the client to shoot as the lion was charging the bakkie

Just curious. What is the going rate for this type of "lion hunt"?

With mane like that I would estimate around $25K-$30K

bowsite.com also has a "debate free" post running:

http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?f...AGES=1&FF=18#2045122

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
bulldog,

In first place where do u find free roaming lions in South Africa except next to the border of Botsawana, Zimbabwe and then the boundaries of Kruger National Park?

Reading trough the post it sounds like their so called hunt on lion happens a lot.

"They experienced more lion charges than they cared to share with me"

Darting is involved and the lion was moved to another part of the farm ?? Mane is perfect and the lion doesn't show fear for humans all tell tale signs of a canned hunt.

PHASA is totally agaisnt canned hunting but lets see what happens I've sent Stewart a mail with the details. He usually checks his mail at least once a day if he is on his farm.

Safari-Hunt,

I totally agree that this is not a fair chase hunt on a wild lion, I was just curious if this sort of thing is against PHASA rules because there is a lot of it going on and it seems like there would be a lot of SA PH's getting in trouble for it if against the rules.

This is definitely a canned hunt. I wonder how many people on Bowsite actually believe this is a fair chase hunt. Someone should go on the debate free thread and enlighten them.

Steve or Jaco- Are there any records regarding the number of these hunts that are being conducted? I would guess someone has records if an officer is required. Those figures would be interesting along side of the lions hunted in Tanz,Moz,Zim,Zambia, Bots,etc. It doesn't really bother me that folks are hunting this way. Many more articulate than me have given good reason as to the positives about these RSA hunts. What does raise my pressure is the spin put on the hunt that is supposed camouflage the true nature of the quarry and that animal's history. Let's just call it what it is. If you like it fine, but please don't try to confuse us.

In regards to Ken Moody's posts of...

quote:

Lion die very easily as do most bowshot animals as there is no trauma as with a rifle.

and then...

quote:

Much cleaner than with a rifle I can assure you.

I don't want to fuel a bow vs rifle argument, but as someone who hunts with both I cannot agree that a bow is cleaner than a rifle. A well placed bullet, of the proper size, weight and construction, will kill faster and cleaner than any well placed arrow.

Ken

Thank you for your response. I did not know.

And forgive me for "shoot, ready aim". I am not a bow hunter, and could not understand why people would bowhunt.

I need to understand more of this type of hunting, because it does sound barbaric compared to a rifle shot.

Thanks to all for "going light".

Jim, I bowhunt for the added challenge, and because I like to. To me, getting within spitting distance of an animal produces a thrill that a rifle has a hard time duplicating. It is also quite peaceful and relaxing.

For the most part, hunting with a bow is much different than rifle hunting. More patience is usually required. Also, it adds other factors to the hunt when one has to get within thirty yards of an animal.

As far as it being barbaric, it really is not. Bowhunting, like rifle hunting, has progressed greatly. The same as flintlocks have changed into high powered flat shooting rifles, bows have evolved as well. However, many people still choose to hunt with traditional equipment, which also produces quick clean kills.

Hopefully you can see that bowhunting is simply another way to enjoy the hunt and time spent afield.

BB....Suffice it to say both bullet and arrow, properly placed, will kill quickly and humanely. The trauma I was referring to is the violent nature of the bullet impact and the energy it unloads on the animal. Any animal struck by a bullet certainly knows it's been hit whereas an arrowed animal usually doesn't have a clue. I shot a huge Eland bull once that ran about 50 yards, stopped, looked back towards my position and then fell over stone dead never knowing what happened. The cows with him continued to stand and look at him and back towards me, clueless as to what had occurred. Most bowshot animals are recovered within 50 yards as they die quickly and have no adrenaline charge spurring them on. That's the biggest difference in arrow vs. bullet impacts. Anyway, there's really no debate as both implements in skilled hands are deadly (especially my .470 double which I love to hunt with). Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Ken Moody

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
bowsite.com also has a "debate free" post running:

http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?f...AGES=1&FF=18#2045122

If I were hunting a pen-raised lion, I'd want a "debate free" discussion for sure. There's no debate as to what was going on with this lion hunt. Read the report and watch the video of the lion and you'll learn all you need to know about canned lion hunting.

I'm embarrassed for the guy frankly. He's not doing any of us any favors by posting tripe like this and calling it fair chase. He's already talked his way into a corner, and I wouldn't be suprised if he quit posting details of this hunt.

( The idea of that type of hunting nauseates me to the core. ) What a JOKE!

He's sponsored by these fine companies
Bowtech, Realtree, Muzzy

Ken,

You didn't ruffle my feathers. I just have very strong opinions on the effectiveness of archery equipment. As I said, I bowhunt, but I am very particular about what I shoot, when I shoot it and where I shoot it. And there are some animals that I wouldn't shoot with a bow, not for any form of inducement, and lions are one of those animals.

A good friend of mine was flushed out of a blind by an unwounded lioness - she simply objected to them being there. He and our PH made a careful withdrawal towards the vehicle but she charged before they got there. Both of these guys know how to shoot but the lioness kept coming and when the smoke cleared there were numerous .375 and .458 holes in that cat.

There is no way that anyone could have stopped her with a bow and that, I believe, is what you must consider when hunting in Africa. The bow or rifle that you are using might do the job on an unalerted animal, with no problems, but if it turns nasty then you'll be wishing that you had an M1 Abrahams and not just a puny rifle or bow. Carry the biggest gun that you are comfortable with, is my motto.

Now, put me within a reasonable distance of a lion, with my .500 double or my .404 boltgun, and I whould have no hesitation in shooting old Leo and adding him to my trophy wall - that is, of course, provided that it really is a fair chase hunt for a truly wild lion!

I like how the Lion is looking behind the truck, to see if they threw out any meat for it. Its pretty obvious the way it runs up. What a joke, no doubt dangerous but give me a break.

BB...Point taken. And, by the way, as a Captain in the U.S. Army I commanded 14 M1A1 Abrams tanks so yes, that particular weapon would do the job! Additionally, I've shot lion and cape buffalo with bow and have taken clients for the same. A backup rifle in capable hands is a necessity.

Ken Moody

quote:

And, by the way, as a Captain in the U.S. Army I commanded 14 M1A1 Abrams tanks

Yep, I knew that - that's why I used that example!
(Bloody amazing coincidence, actually!)

You need to see the next thread of this bowhunt. 1 hunter, 2 guides, at least 1 cameramen and possible others as well....stalk up 20 yards to this "wild dominant male lion" (after chasing it for 6 hours) and the lion just sits idle and lets them anchors him with one arrow hit to the spine. Note the lion has no scars, perfect health.

And this is not a "canned hunt"! Its an embarrassment to all bowhunters and sportsmen.

Ken Moody: A U.S. military officer always conducts himself with integrity Be honest...this hunt is a fraud.