There are two things involved here, (1) the hunt itself and (2) the weapon choice. As far as the hunt goes, I could care less if it's canned, semi-canned, tin canned, half wild, all wild. This hunter chose to participate and I respect his right to do so. I personally wouldn't hunt in this manner, but don't damm someone else for doing so. As far as (2) the choice of a bow for this hunt is not so far fetched or outrageous as some here imply. It simply amazes me that some of you hunters here,(gun hunters) don't have a clue as to the effectivness of a bow and arrow??? Yet you spout off with a series of non-truths or misinformed information. Comments such as "fester sticks", bow shot animals "suffering", have no place in this discussion. I am sure the antis love to hear this kind of talk from "hunters" bashing each other. If you personally choose not to bow hunt, no problem, but leave your ingnorance of bow hunting facts and figures out of your comments. It tends to make you look idiotic to say the least. A few years ago a "major" university back East did the most comprehensive study on wound/loss of whitetail deer by ALL, (bow, muzzle loader and modern rifle) hunters to date. Their results might surprise some, it did me. The study showed that there was NO major difference in wounding ratios by percentage of any of the three types of hunting. Rifle hunters actually were a 1/2 percentage point higher than the other two forms. One other point of the study did show that deer wounded by the various weapons indicated that those wounded by an arrow had a 5 times greater chance of recovery that those wounded with rifle or muzzle loader. No intention of making this a bow/gun debate, but if you don't know what you a talking about on a subject, then have the common sense to not display it here. They say "ignorance is bliss", in this case "ignorance hurts us all".

Larry Sellers (bow, rifle & muzzle loader hunter).

Your post deserves a reply Larry.
I don't care if he shot this lion with a .50 BMG, an arrow, a pellet gun, a pea shooter, a sling shot, or a spit ball. This was a canned hunt of a pen raised lion. And that hurts us all.

Dale...You are correct with regards to military officers and my integrity is of the highest standard, I assure you. I have made no comment about this particular hunt simply about the effectiveness of the bow and arrow. This hunt was legal under the current laws of the country and province in which it occurred. Pat Lefemine is a friend and client of mine. He chose to do this hunt against my advise but he is a big boy and can decide his own courses of action. I believe, from what I have read from him, that he was honest and forthwright in reporting on the circumstances involved in the hunt. He told the truth about it (as he understood the truth to be) and didn't try to say it was something it was not. I haven't read his full report but I believe I am correct. I also agree that lion hunting in SA is, unfortunately, a travesty. I am happy to see it being policed up now as the country's reputation was going down the tubes. I have operated a safari company in the Limpopo Valley of SA since '94 primarily bowhunting plains game. Our dangerous game hunts are conducted in Zimbabwe due to the stigmatism associated with Big 5 in SA, most of which is justified. I think the country is going to right itself in this regard as it has too much to lose otherwise. Anyway, I appreciate your comments and understand your feelings but again, don't think Pat undertook this hunt as an ego thing at all. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure why he did this hunt. I will have to read his entire report to speak more on it...Ken Moody

This guy "Burt" posted this in the NoDebate thread on Bowsite.
I must say, he has a way with words.

"Debate Free ??

I am sure Pat is relieved that he got his Lion and congratulations on a very stressful and intense hunt.

Usually Lion hunts take longer than 7 hours so Pat should feel very fortunate that they were able to find this lion in such a short time, even in that controlled enviroment.Sometimes luck is just on your side. 6000 acres is a large place. They could have hunted for days and never seen it. They seem to have had some very good luck in first finding the lion and then luckily the lion found (killed) that impala near the same location as it was seen the day before and luckily near enough to the road to be seen so the stalk could begin.

I would like to congratulate all those involved as mounting a hunt like this is difficult. Even with Pat and his two PHs and a camerman they were all skilled enough to get into position without the lion spooking. I noticed from the camera position that Pat was able to get to the side of the lion, and the camera person was able to get behind the lion.

Great Job to all.

Now bring on the Bovines !!"

Ken: I appreciate your honesty and integrity. And mostly I want to thank you for serving our country.

The problem I have with all of this controversy is the general attitude from bow hunters( specifically traditional bow hunters) snub their noses at firearm hunters. If you go to Pat Lefemine's web site www.stickbow.com and enter this thread, you cannot even question or comment on this hunt that is not " positive or debatable." Read the comments on this thread. Example from thread: Pat Lefemine...you have "gonads of steel" to hunt lion this way!! The holier then thou attitude from bow hunters generally is laughable, but in this case it is disheartening.

Dale...In their defense, most of the bowhunters on the site don't have a clue about the controversy surrounding lion hunting in SA. They just see lion killed in Africa. That's all they know about it. I don't thinks it's arrogance, just ignorance of the entire canned lion hunting situation that has existed in SA for a long time. It is a subject that has not received much attention at the Bowsite as lion hunting is not a common practice amongst the bowhunting fraternity...Ken Moody

With a no debate site the subject of canned lion hunting in SA may never come up. That is one big positive for an open debate site.

465H&H

Ken- Thank you for your take on this sensitive subject. I am sure everyone reading here appreciates your input. And you are right about perceptions on the other site. Bob Butler.

My favorite hunting quote is from Saxton Pope, The Godfather of traditional bowhunters for those that don't know and I think it applies here: "The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved." You will notice he says nothing about weapon choice. My personal take is "earn it."

quote:

Originally posted by gymrat:
My favorite hunting quote is from Saxton Pope, The Godfather of traditional bowhunters for those that don't know and I think it applies here: "The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved." You will notice he says nothing about weapon choice. My personal take is "earn it."

So very true. I agree completely.

I tried starting a thread with debate over there in the forum section but for some reason they wont put it up tried 3 times. Must be some monitoring going on over there.

Walker - Canned hunt? Maybe, maybe not. How big an area does a hunt have to be conducted in to be classified "canned"? Ask everyone out there and they will all have a different opinion of the size factor. A lot of gun/bow hunters think it's OK to hunt whitetails on a few hundred acres in places like the Sanctuary etc., while others are not comfortable unless it's in the thousands or tens or thousands of acres. You will never get an agreement of how many acres a hunt must be conducted in to shed the "canned" stigma. You say it was a "pen rasied" lion, when in fact you have no idea if this was/is the case. YOU have no way of knowing where this lion came from unless you are hooked into their operation. This is what I meant by people spouting off without any facts about the subject. It's your opinion, nothing less, nothing more.

Safari hunt - in your post it mentions that "American bowhunters ALWAYS shoot too far back since that's where you shoot deer". That is about the most assinine statement I have ever heard. I for one (American Bowhunter, and darn proud of it) have NEVER shot an African animal "too far back" with a bow or anything else. To date 23 African animals, 17 species, with a bow, all one shot kills, nothing traveling over 100 yards after being shot. So I guess "not everyone" shoots them too far back???

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Walker:
Your post deserves a reply Larry.
I don't care if he shot this lion with a .50 BMG, an arrow, a pellet gun, a pea shooter, a sling shot, or a spit ball. This was a canned hunt of a pen raised lion. And that hurts us all.

WOW, not a visible scar anywhere.

To each of us hunting is a personal thing. I hunt with a rifle and with a bow. Important is that we should know our limitations.

What we hunt, where we hunt and wether we hunt free rangeing animals or pen raised animals is again everybody's own indaba. After all I must live with my own conscience, I must wake up and look at myself in the mirror.

I have a major problem when a unsuspecting client is bullshitted into a hunt, like this one. You cannot expect from Pat to know everything that is going on in RSA or the rest of Africa. I put the blame on the outfitter. Where did Pat get his story on a true wild Lion that is free ranging in the farm. That Impala head, a genuine prey or a planted shot Impala. How would Pat know.

I personally think that Pat were brought under the wrong impression, he is under the impression that he is getting a true wild experience on a huge property. After some searces and looking at discriptions, he was under the impression that he will be hunting on a ranch of 37000 acres, in fact it is 20000 acres according to the website of Madiakgama Safaris. Very little information is given on the website, they don't even give their surname, I did find it in the end and as far as I could establish they are not members of Phasa, another red light.

If Pat were told the true circumstances of the hunt and he still decided to do it, fine it would have been his decision and it it would have been wrong in my eyes, but it is his money and his hunt. He would have dropped many points in my esteem of him.

Knowing what is on it's way in RSA iro Lion hunting, and Phasa's numerous declarations on their view of Lion hunting in RSA all outfitters should stop hunting Lions in RSA. It does not matter if it is still legal at this point in time, it is a moral thing.

I can carry on with all the things that I noticed that was BS on this hunt, but that is not the point. Pat swallowed a BS story bait, hook and sinker and the agent and outfitter are to be blamed.

Thats it, thats my Zim$1,000,000 worth.

quote:

as far as I could establish they are not members of Phasa, another red light.

I am not a member of PHASA either- is that now also a red light? Sorry Jaco, not trying to pick a fight, but that statement is BS.

Karl, I take your point, but, looking at a lot of things , the limited info he gives on his web, info that is not given and the fact that he does not belong to Phasa is a red light for me. I should have made myself clearer in my statement.

It is also not compulsory to be a member of Phasa. My impression of this outfitter is that he is hiding things, only my personal view on the situation.

Larry Sellers,

quote:

Safari hunt - in your post it mentions that "American bowhunters ALWAYS shoot too far back since that's where you shoot deer". That is about the most assinine statement I have ever heard. I for one (American Bowhunter, and darn proud of it) have NEVER shot an African animal "too far back" with a bow or anything else. To date 23 African animals, 17 species, with a bow, all one shot kills, nothing traveling over 100 yards after being shot. So I guess "not everyone" shoots them too far back???

If you go trough the post properly you will see that I quoted the article and it wasn't my words at all.

Check it out just below the picture of the lion of the video link. in the road the second paragraph below.

Quote

Jaco- You are a real gentleman. I have a hard time understanding how a keen hunter who has been to Africa several times would be so duped. The trend seems to be that hunting"luminaries and celebrities" from all over the globe are racing to take this "bait". I know of two others in the last 30 days and that is just through casual phone conversations with my hunting pals. Again, is there any way to get figures?

My take has always been that a hunter serious enough to go after lion would know a good deal about the animal's biology . One could quickly connect the dots upon learning of the lion's dietary requirements. So any keen hunter, at least IMO, would know it is economically impossible to have a "wild" lion on a game ranch. I really beleive the camouflage used on these practices is in hopes of prolonging them. A straight discussion of what is really going on would probably hasten thenend of this.

Safari Hunt - I know "you" didn't say it, that's why I just made a reference to it being in your post. So I guess I did go through the post properly afterall?? Sorry if you thought I was accusing you of saying this.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Larry Sellers,

quote:

Safari hunt - in your post it mentions that "American bowhunters ALWAYS shoot too far back since that's where you shoot deer". That is about the most assinine statement I have ever heard. I for one (American Bowhunter, and darn proud of it) have NEVER shot an African animal "too far back" with a bow or anything else. To date 23 African animals, 17 species, with a bow, all one shot kills, nothing traveling over 100 yards after being shot. So I guess "not everyone" shoots them too far back???

If you go trough the post properly you will see that I quoted the article and it wasn't my words at all.

Check it out just below the picture of the lion of the video link. in the road the second paragraph below.

Quote

Thanx Larry for explaining.

BTW reading day 4, there is a couple of very nice lodges and places to stay around Vaalwater and some nice places to eat as well like Tuskers the rump they serve is always soft and tender.

It's getting tense over there again. Pat is hot on the trail of a rogue dagga boy who's been kicked out the herd. God only knows how this one will turn out. Please say a debate-free positive and constructive prayer for Pat.

DAY 5 - The Buffalo Saga

If you post anything at all questioning the hunt it is removed by mods. The only thing being left up is atta boys for Pat. The "new" Bowsite is quickly becoming the most over moderated site around.

Al lion footage has been completly pulled hmmmmmm wonder why.

NO surprise on what I've seen and read. Why even waste your time on a site like that? No freedom of expression there unless you agree to agree with their point of view. Besides that, I noticed early on that site that we had posters that subsequently posted here that were directly reporting on our discussions and criticisms on AR over on that site, and letting everyone over there know what they thought of it. As far as I'm concerned that site is a time waster at best, based on their limitations. Still can't beat AR for freedom of expression. Thanks Saeed.

Well looks so far as if the buff hunt is much harder and for real. But then again he is hiding in Aus bluegum trees the whole time.
Hope for him that he will get a chnace.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Well looks so far as if the buff hunt is much harder...

Which is why they resorted to smoking the bull out with a fire and chasing him down with the truck.

It's a sickening lack of sportsmanship.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Well looks so far as if the buff hunt is much harder and for real. But then again he is hiding in Aus bluegum trees the whole time.
Hope for him that he will get a chnace.

Safari-Hunt

Did you mean that he gets a chance at the buff or the buff gets a chance at him?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Well looks so far as if the buff hunt is much harder...

Which is why they resorted to smoking the bull out with a fire and chasing him down with the truck.

It's a sickening lack of sportsmanship.

And had you taken the time to actually present an objective view of what Pat wrote you would've posted that after the bull was run with a truck and standing at 8 yds Pat REFUSED to shoot it. The owner Jimmy chewed the hired hand out for even trying such a unsporting stunt.
I know Pat and he is the real deal. By what I read on this site he is more of a sportsman and accomplished hunter than 99% of the posters here.

I have always thought Pat was a good sportsman and it still may be true, but he messed up this time he knows it or the footage would of never been pulled or the forum would of never been "debate free"

In the latest African Indaba PASHA has posted their new(May) guidelines for lion hunting in RSA. Bottom line is that this hunt and others like them are no longer acceptable to PASHA. Pretty strong statement....

quote:

Originally posted by Pauly3511:
I have always thought Pat was a good sportsman and it still may be true, but he messed up this time he knows it or the footage would of never been pulled or the forum would of never been "debate free"

The threads on Bowsite.com and Stickbow are designated debate free at the option of the original poster. Could it be the man whom owns both (Pat) doesn't wish to see the slander and back biting there as is too often found here at AR??????????????????????
Me I'm of the mind set that if it is legal it is the hunter whom must decide what he is comfortable with and he's free to thumb his nose at those that try to impose their values on him.
I once killed a bison in S.D. in a 6000 acre pasture for the hide and meat. My own brother snubbed his nose at such an act. I ate all the ribeyes with a smile on my face looking at the bull's shoulder mount. While he bought chicken breasts for $1.99/#

quote:

Originally posted by jorgie:

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Well looks so far as if the buff hunt is much harder...

Which is why they resorted to smoking the bull out with a fire and chasing him down with the truck.

It's a sickening lack of sportsmanship.

And had you taken the time to actually present an objective view of what Pat wrote you would've posted that after the bull was run with a truck and standing at 8 yds Pat REFUSED to shoot it. The owner Jimmy chewed the hired hand out for even trying such a unsporting stunt.
I know Pat and he is the real deal. By what I read on this site he is more of a sportsman and accomplished hunter than 99% of the posters here.

It looks like he participated fully and enthusiastically in the attempt to smoke him out, and did nothing to put a stop to chasing the bull with the truck. I'm not giving him points for not shooting the bull after he'd been run to exhaustion.

The lion hunt and the buffalo hunt are in the bottom 1% of sportmanship exhibitions as far as I'm concerned. He clearly shot a tame lion, which is why the video evidence was pulled. If the bull wasn't penned, they would have never seen him again after the second day of pushing him.

If you're really that close to Pat you should tell him to open his forum to all viewpoints. He's shown himself to be a coward in the field and now shown himself to be a coward in his business affairs. If you think 99% of the posters here are beneath him, you really should find a new place to post. I can't believe you'd choose to hang out with so many losers.

Well said, Forrest. I agree 100%.

This guy and his "exploits" are repugnant.

Amen.

Excellent post, Forrest. If this guy were proud of what he is doing he would be open for debate.

Moody:
I just went to the sharp stick killer site and read your comments. Here's a quote from you in reference to this site..."where there is no debate. It's all one sided." You were really just funnin the boys over there weren't you?
If you really believe that, why are you here? Were your comments posted here censored? If not, how can it be "one sided"?

Almost getting to the end of the trip.

"“That is not the way we hunt†Jimmy told Big Simone. Please do not do that again.†Big Simone was confused, and told Jimmy – but that’s the way they shot the other buffalo?â€"
Quote after they chased him dowm from the website.

I'm a bit confused buffalo drinks water don't they ? So whay didn't they wait for him at the water ?

Then you guys with expereince in ZIM what would have been his chances bagging a buff with bow there in 10 days?

Without taking the time to look at the numbers of registered members to AR. I'd be inclined to say the very few that are more interested in here are heavily out numbered by those that refrained from placeing a post on this thread to.
It seems to me that when this handful of find a thread they do not agree with, be it on any subject, they go out of their way to all over themselves.
The man commited no illegal act, spent his own money, nor asked for your approval. Are your egos that inflated while hidden behind a monitor that you really think he cares what you have to say?

the man tries to pass the hunt on as a true a hunt when its nothing but a junk canned hunt thats the problem, then he wont let anybody give their opinions but you are allowed to come here and stick up for him. Well hopefully at reads ths then your job as a the biggest ass kisser in the world will make you happy.

quote:

Originally posted by jorgie:
The man commited no illegal act, spent his own money, nor asked for your approval. Are your egos that inflated while hidden behind a monitor that you really think he cares what you have to say?

Terrence, the part about hiding behind a monitor is pretty funny coming from you the biggest internet poser on this board. Pat IS looking for approval and adoration; in fact that's all he's allowed to be posted regarding his spoof hunt. He seems quite afraid of what many have to say. I'll tell you what, why don't we continue this argument on bowsite.com instead of here? Maybe because "Pat the cowardly" would never let that occur.