I just posted on the Bowsite forum. I said I certainly looked like a canned lion, and who would go all the way to Africa and go to a place to hunt buff that only has ONE? We will see if they post it..............

Bwana 1, your post will probably appear but it won't be there long.
jorgie, the hunt may have been legal in every country in the world but it was still a "canned" hunt and Pat is a well known figure in the bowhunting world and he should never do anything that has the slightest tinge of unethical. These kind of hunts be celeb's and almost celeb's do untold amounts of damage to the the integrety of the common hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana1:
I just posted on the Bowsite forum. I said I certainly looked like a canned lion, and who would go all the way to Africa and go to a place to hunt buff that only has ONE? We will see if they post it..............

I went over to their website and your post was there, but for how long who knows. Maybe they decided to allow some debate on it now.

That post will be gone in a matter of minutes. Might as well post your comments on here, so others have a chance to read them.

Bwana1,

Maybe the guys on the site have weekends so your post will stay there untill Monday

They wont let me post at all, must have had me blocked from the word go. I have not been able to post since the very begining.

Now I cant even get onto the site....Aint censorship great....

The site is down, it isn't just you.

Walker, you are so right.

It might be true that everybody can spend his money the way he wants to, but if you participate in something like a canned hunt in a country that is working its butt off to close it, keep your trap shut and don't tell the whole world about it.

Most outfitters in RSA does not want to touch a canned hunt. Reports like this gives all of us in RSA and the country bad publicity and we do not deserve it. Why must the inocent suffer because big trap Pat wants to brag about his shamefull accomplishment

Quite funny, I also cannot get onto the site anymore, my computer just keeps on hanging, must have stood on somebody's nerve.

The site is down. They had already removed your post Bawana. Why would the owner of one of the largest hunting sites around participate in what is a very obvious canned hunt, make it a semi live hunt, remove vidio after it is questioned, and then only allow "congrats " to be shown on his site. I know Pat is reading these comments. You truly need to do something to fix this. This is along the lines of the WHA mess.

My post is long gone..Bowsite.com's no debate policy must be you can only say good things about this "hunt".Oh well

And they called you a Troll Bwana 1.
I posted my thoughts about the "pen raised" lion before the buff hunt started. My post lasted about 10 minutes.
Nothin adds up on the buffalo hunt either. This is supposed to be the only buff there because he was left behind when the herd was trapped but the driver of the chase truck said thats how they got the last bull.
Pat surely can't believe all the crap he's being told now, CAN HE????

The photo by the author says it all. Please see the 6th picture on day 5....old saying- a picture says a thousand words....

LOL NOTHIN BUT A PILE OF SHIT

There have been many assumptions, sacastic comments, accusations, and personal attacks about the South African lion bowhunt described on www.bowsite.com

You all may or may not be aware that there may be a major turning point coming in African lion hunting. In simple terms, the demand for male lion trophies is greater than supply (and probably reduces supply due to the social structure of lion mating). So younger and younger (immature?) male lions are being taken throughout Africa. The two countries with an established game reserve industry (which by the way brought back the black wildebeest, white rhino, black rhino to huntable populations) that are in a position to boost trophy lion populations (Namibia and South Africa) have been segregated due to the now decade plus old "canned lion" stigma.

Coming up will probably be a) more regulations on hunting immature lions (less than 4-6 year old depending on who you talk to) outside SA and Namibia, b) a ban on "canned lion hunting" in SA, and c) the development of free roaming lion hunting on game preserves in SA, Namibia and eventually elsewhere. The standards for "Free Roaming" lion hunts are being debated and defined now (probably why Mr. Dorrington and others have been fairly quiet on the debate). But regulations may be something like lions must be acclimated to an area for at least six months during which time they are allowed to form their own prides/bachelor groups and must catch their own game. In a few more years, there should be self-reproducing free roaming prides if the economics work out.

Eventually (as wisely stated in Don Causey's The Hunt Report) a trophy of a hunted immature "wild" lion will probably become more a source of shame rather than pride among hunters.

Many of the comments here are not very constructive in helping this evolution/solution.

For those who are itching for a debate about bow hunting lion in South Africa, I hunted a lion and a lioness there with a long bow. One reason for the hunts was to see (the hunt was filmed) what an ethical bow hunt for free roaming lion might be like. (and for those of you who really feel an urge to criticize darted hunts for dangerous game (not to mention bow hunts), I also long bow dart hunted a rhino and bull elephant)

I'm in Canada hunting right now. Be back in mid-October. When I have some pics then, they along with a brief description will be posted on a forum (probably on www.bowsite.com). After the those posts, I'll start an "un" debate free thread somewhere (probably on www.bowsite.com but for the sake of trying to improve our hunting world, it could be mirror posted here if someone is willing to be responsible for the technical side).

Hope we all can learn something from this.

Sorry mis-spelled a name in the above post. It should be Pat Lefemine.

So what's all that rhetoric got to do with shooting a pen raised lion and a suspiciouis smelling buffalo hunt?

Big K,

While everything you say may be true, what has it got to do with Pat shooting what appears to be a very tame Lion, removing vidio, removing any post nice or not that questions the hunt, and now tells us he is hunting the "only" Buff on a huge ranch, trys smoking it out, chasing it with a jeep on and on and on. He stalks to 5 YARDS and the wild beast runs from him again. The whole hunt reaks and he is trying his best to sell it for something it is not. Time to do like the Bowsite faithful would do if it were anybody but Pat and send emails to Bowtech, Muzzy and RealTree and let them know you do not think they should be supporting this type of hunt.

Kahuna- Interesting post. You have one thing wrong for sure- PHASA has been on the record against "previously captive" lions since 1999. They recently made the following statement- "PHASA deems any animal to be 'canned', when that animal cannot sustain itself, breed freely and be hunted under fair chase conditions." That would obviously include an apex predator raised to maturity in an enclousure.

This thread was never intented to be a debate about archery. Instead, what I was trying to facilitate was a discussion on the status of RSA lion hunting. As you know, there seems to be a "race" amongst all styles of hunters to get a lion while they are still availible. You participated in such a hunt earlier this year and the report of that hunt is availible over on Mr. Lafemine's site. For you to report here that the hunt was "free ranging" is not accurate. It really dosen't matter to me how someone choses to hunt. But it drives me wild to see you, Mr. Lafemine, and others misrepresent the conditons of the hunt. Your hunt was for a "PC" lion as are virtually all those conducted in RSA. If you were duped into thinking otherwise, spend some time reading the posts above and searching this site for information. It is ironic that after reading your report some months ago I posted some lengthly comments on your hunt dealing with PC lions, their biology, etc. I was attempting to point out that the conditions you described could not possibly exist, given the known biology of the species. You may not have had a chance to read those comments as they were deleted by Mr. Lefemine. He then posted a rant about people being critical. It would appear that at that point Mr. Lefemine had already decided to go on a PC hunt.

At any rate, welcome to the site where honest discussion and debate is encouraged by our gracious host. And you may have a point- If the new regs are tight enough RSA could play a pivotal role in lion conservation.

Kahuna is prolly Pat himself what a joke post

quote:

PHASA has been on the record against "previously captive" lions since 1999. They recently made the following statement- "PHASA deems any animal to be 'canned', when that animal cannot sustain itself, breed freely and be hunted under fair chase conditions."

Breed freely how does one buffalo bull on a 6000 acres farm breed freely if he is the only one. Was the buffalo bought on a auction and dropped off a week before the hunt commenced ?

My one question still remains unanswered if Pat would have gone on a 10 day buff hunt in ZIM what would have been his chances of bagging a buff with bow? Wouldn't it have been cheaper anyway than the $10 000 + buff hunt he is paying for the hunt in SA.

Have time an internet access for now so will reply to above posts:

Walker and 264 - sadly the hunt has triggered off a series of public posts on many forums which are not helping and may hurt the development of lion hunting at this crucial time. The post of Pauly3511 above for example are not particularly helpful to anyone. So I perhaps it would be useful to move discussion to a higher level where the key issues can be debated. Hopefully this will help the hunters think when they make public comments. The alternative (and easy route) of course is just to ban lion hunts (which is under consideration and had been done temporarily in Tanzania). We must all remember one thing, sports hunting is a priviledge that the majority would choose to end if a vote were taken.

One reason why I am posting here is because Accurate Reloading appears to have a more mature and thoughtful level of discussion that most other forums (comments of some of the above posters excepted). It also is followed by a larger universe of hunters than most.

Pauly3511 - I can assure you that I am not Mr. Lefermine. I find your posts immature and unconstructive. So I will not be replying to them in the future unless they begin to have some substance.

Safari - I am not familiar with cape buff hunting although I hope to hunt cape buff nest year. I haven't done any research yet into cape buffalo hunting. So I'm afraid that I can't comment on cape buff for now. Try me again in a year's time.

Crane - Thank you for your post. Informed debate is always welcome. But I must correct an error you made. In my post about my hunt on www.bowsite.com (the link is shown below), I don't believe I ever referred to my hunt as "free ranging" because the lions were behind a fence. The hunt I did was a "free roaming" and "fair chase" hunt (admitedly the "free roaming" definition is still evolving as part of the ongoing process but that is how the hunt will probably be listed on the CITIES permits).

http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?f...39&MESSAGES=16&FF=18

Your comments about the PHASA's position are very useful. As you are aware the PHASA has been actively involved in developing the proposed SA regulations. So it would not be surprising to see the wording of the PHASA's official position changing as part of the process. We shall see. (of course, the PHASA's official positions may or may not affect the actions of its members during hunts - I would guess that a good number of PHASA's members would have to be disciplined by the PHASA for both lion hunts and darted hunts if PHASA positions were strictly enforced)

My apologies but I am not familiar with the term "PC" hunt. Would you care to define it for us?

This may also be a good time for the critics here to actually define what they mean by a "canned lion hunt"

A last request: please do bother to check things before posting. As I hope you all realize, I do take these things quite seriously and do try to post thorough replies (it does take a lot of time and effort!). So if you would like to refer to other sources or my past posts, please do cite the text. If I made an error or misjudgement in a past post (of which I am sure I have made many - after all I consider myself a novice hunter and we are all constantly learning), I would grateful for alerting it and would be more than happy to apologize if justified

The Big Kahuna,

While I'm not pointing personal fingers to Pat or anyone else for this matter, I am just concerned to allow someone to post for the whole world about a canned lion hunt.

There is a lot of people against hunting who do not understand that hunting as made South Africa what it is today with animals around every corner. Nowhere else in Africa can you travel in comfort and see the big five in such a short space of time.

Is someone at least telling Pat what is happening ? I know that a lot of hunters don't have a clue what has really hapened on their lion hunt untill weeks afterwards when they review everything only to find out the hunt was canned. But by then they keep quiet and what was done is done. This could be the case with Pat. There is ways for outfitters to work around the current laws and get away with it.

So, basically what I'm trying to say is why post something for the whole world that could hurt hunters everywhere.

Instead of a bunch of links to bowsite.com, and debate here over a hunt report posted on bowsite.com, why don't we have this discussion at bowsite.com?

Kahuna- Sorry about the missed quote. I think it is a matter of semantics at this point. "PC"" refers to "previously captive" which was explained in the thread.

quote:

Instead of a bunch of links to bowsite.com, and debate here over a hunt report posted on bowsite.com, why don't we have this discussion at bowsite.com?

Because its debate free over there we have been talking about that the whole time.

I love Kahunas posts on Bowsite LOL his nose has to be brown with Pats turds be now,,,,,,thats great.

quote:

Originally posted by Pauly3511:

quote:

Instead of a bunch of links to bowsite.com, and debate here over a hunt report posted on bowsite.com, why don't we have this discussion at bowsite.com?

Because its debate free over there we have been talking about that the whole time.

I understand what the deal is Pauly. We're in agreement about the nature of this "hunting" farce, but the only reason it's being debated here is because bowsite.com is "debate free" on the subject. You and Kahuna and others just showed up on AR to post about the canned lion hunt because you couldn't do it there. Go work on "Pat the Cowardly" until he agrees to allow a full discussion of the merits of the hunt, otherwise just ignore his website.

Kahuna, if you think calling a spade a spade "may hurt the development of lion hunting at this crucial time", what do you think posting video and a description of canned lion hunting on a public website does for hunters in general or real lion hunting in particular? Go pontificate elsewhere on the distinction between "canned", "previously captive", "free ranging" and "free roaming".

Pat Lafeminine has proven himself to be a spineless bastard on his "hunt" and in the way he has handled criticism on his website. Until, he'll allow me to post my constructive comments on the bowsite.com forum I see no reason to argue the points here. Publicizing his cowardly stunts via the web and calling it "hunting" gives all of us a black eye. Personally, I find it offensive.

Actually I have been a member here since July 17 if you look so no I did come here to debate just that.

Still have internet access so will still be replying to posts.

Crane - thanks again for your post (they seem to be among the more thoughtful here). It might seem like semantics. But semantics are what makes the regulations what will form the future of sports hunting. If one wants to be simple, the simplest regulation would be to ban hunting (and believe me, there is a lot of support for that one). The meaning of "ban" is clear to everyone.

That is a good point about "previously captured". There are accounts that the big supplier of lions for canned hunts had or has around 300+ male lions which were bred in capitivity and cages. If they were bred in captivity, technically they weren't captured in the wild. But unlike the game grown on and for SA and Namibia game reserves, these lions probably weren't bred and raised under "free roaming conditions". (by "PC" lions, I can probably assume they are what you are refering to). The idea is probably to move SA lion hunting from "PC" lions into fully free roaming and fair chase lions like for plainsgame and others.

There is also a transition issue. I have heard that the lion breeder has publicly stated that his lions will be killed if the new regulations are enacted because it is too expensive to feed them. So may be a need for the new free roaming, fair chase lion reserves to be organized so that these lions can be moved. These lions will originally have been "PC". But if hunters are not willing to hunt them on new free roaming, fair chase places, then they will be slaughtered like cattle having never experienced something even close to freedom. Each hunter who respects the lion will have to make his own moral judgement on that one.

Safari - You are quite right. Mr. Lefermine should be told if his hunt was "canned" with a full explanation (of course a "canned hunt" will have to be defined and proof will have to be offerred). It will then be up to him on whether he a) accepts or disagrees with the arguments and/or b) decides that the hunt was ethical or not to him. Who knows, you might actually get the story pulled if your evidence is convincing?

Might I suggest that you start a new thread on www.bowsite.com without the "debate free" label specifically to debate whether the hunt was "canned". One warning: personal attacks and offensive language probably won't be allowed (as for all threads with bowsite's recent regulations). Keep it to the describing/defining what is a "canned hunt" and the evidence of why you believe the hunt was canned. You'll probably add quite a bit to the issue.

ForestB -

"Instead of a bunch of links to bowsite.com, and debate here over a hunt report posted on bowsite.com, why don't we have this discussion at bowsite.com?"

- That may be a helpful suggestion. Please see the above post.

"Kahuna and others just showed up on AR to post about the canned lion hunt because you couldn't do it there."

- That is not true. Please do read the above post. Someone from AR started this thread. So it can be assumed that he welcomed public comment.

"Go pontificate elsewhere . . " "Pat . . . spineless bastard . . . Publicizing his cowardly stunts"

- Personal attacks, bullying, abusive language and swear words: if you continue to post in this manner, I'm sure that your posts on www.bowsite.com will be pulled negating whatever points you want to make.

Until ForestB cleans it up, I won't be replying to his future posts. I wouldn't be surprised if other hunters on this forum are embarassed to have him post using such language. I certainly am.

I usually stay pretty even-keeled but not when some idiot on an ego trip provides rich fuel to anti-hunters everywhere. Spineless Pat's entire farce was motivated by ego and money; those are pitiful excuses to kill a half-tame lion and to unethically harrass a penned buffalo.

Debating the definitional distinctions that facinate Kahuna aren't important to me. I'm trying to make a point that canned lion shooting is bad for all of us. I'm trying to make a point that smoking out an animal and chasing him with a truck is not ethical hunting and should be condemned by sport hunters everywhere.

"Pat the Cowardly" hopes to use his "hunt" to drive traffic on his website and put a buck in his pocket. He obviously knows now that his charade is over, hence his removal of the video evidence and his refusal to allow dissenting opinions on his site.

The Big Kahuna,

There is already enough evidence and I think Pat knows it why pull the video from the site. Then getting up close to a lion with a whole entourage is another point. Then there is words like darted relocated. Relocated from where ? Perfect mane, face and body no signs of a tough time of living in the bush for 8-12 years.

That is enough evidence for me. I'm off going hunting today and will only be back at the end of the month. So I'm not going to even bother going to subscribe and open a post on Bowsite since I'm not here. The only posts you will see from me is hopefuly our live report on our current hunt from tomorow.

Summary of the Proposed South African Hunting Rules

Lion hunting -

* No hunting of lions or other “listed large predators†(cheetah, spotted hyaena, brown hyaena, wild dog, leopard) unless the landowner provides an affidavit stating the period that the predator has been on the property (if it was not born there);

that the predator was not bred or born in captivity;
that the predator is not a “put and take†animal (released on the property for the purpose of hunting);

* In issuing permits to hunt lions or other listed large predators, the authorities must consider whether or not there are any captive bred or “kept†specimens of that species (kept = held in a controlled environment (with a few exceptions, such as transport) on the land to be hunted and whether the land is “extensively†managed (extensive = large piece of land with minimal human intervention (in form of water, food supplementation, parasite control, health care, supplementation of wild prey populations)

* Captive breeding of lions and other listed large predators is only allowed for conservation or rehabilitation purposes. It is specifically not allowed for hunting or for sale of the animals for the purpose of hunting (captive breeding = breeding on a piece of land designed to hold the animals to prevent them from escaping, and involving human intervention to provide food, water, artificial housing or health care).

However,
It is not considered captive breeding if the land is a fenced piece of land on which self-sustaining wildlife populations are managed in an extensive wildlife system

it is okay to hunt a listed large predator that has been bred or kept at a captive breeding operation, sanctuary or rehabilitation facility if

The animal was rehabilitated in an extensive wildlife system, and has been fending for itself in the wild for at least two years

quote:

* No hunting of lions or other “listed large predators†(cheetah, spotted hyaena, brown hyaena, wild dog, leopard) unless the landowner provides an affidavit stating the period that the predator has been on the property (if it was not born there);

I am trying to understand why leopard is in this. As I understand it leopards in RSA are wild since the fencing does nothing to stop them as they easily climb over it. Just trying to get clarification on this since I am in the process of scheduling a hunt for 2007 and I am wanting to hunt leopard.

I'm posting here, because I got kicked off the bowsite for writing something about one of their sponsors that runs a hog hunting service in Oklahoma. I mentioned that the hunt area is only 300 acres and fenced in. I was blasted by a bunch of other people on there, and now I can't post anything else on there. It seems that many on that site also like to hunt hogs behind fences. I once tried to start a NON-debate free thread about hunting hogs behind fences and that was quickly pulled. It would be nice to see someone start a thread about this hunt that is not listed as "debate free", but I don't think it will last 5 minutes before being pulled. That website used to be a great place to get information, and it still is in some respects, but now its mostly just an add for sponsors. Look at all the threads that start out- Sept. at (fill in the sponsors name).

Ive only been here for a short time but, I can see one thing you dont have worry about is being censored here. I never had anything against bowsite and enjoyed the forums but now I see they are all hiding inside a fence over there. There are some nig named sponsors over there which suprises me I hope some of them will take a hard look at what they are sponsoring. I would love to see Pat try and burn a whitetail out and chase it down with a four wheeler when he goes down to Kansas for his "semi live" hunt coming up. If that dont work I guess he could always dart a monster and bring it in from a game farm somewhere. Hell maybe he can take Jimmy Houston with him.

My post on bowsite.com was deleted. If he wants to kill a canned lion, thats fine with me. However,he needs to be responsible for his actions,and to delete the video and posts that question this "hunt" just proves to me that he must be aware something is rotten. He did it, made a big production out of it, now he need to be accountable.

How many posters on this site (AR) proudly post pictures of game farm RSA & Namibia trophies....many! Is it suddenly Kosher to zap a kudu with 3000FPS/200gr .308 handloads behind fence? How about the quirky Black wildebeest that stands for your approach then runs around in circles for the shooter whom just happens to be in an enclosed area?

This is about a lion hunt on boewsite Jorgie you moron. I seen you were once someone else on here that was basically labeled a moron now with a new name, and I can see why.

quote:

Originally posted by Pauly3511:
This is about a lion hunt on boewsite Jorgie you moron. I seen you were once someone else on here that was basically labeled a moron now with a new name, and I can see why.