Videos removed at shootaways request.

Saeed

Sad. I do not know what is sadder, these clips or the fact that you deleted your post on the other thread suggesting this was not your fault. I can understand why you deleted the post but to do so was shameful.

nice cow. did you at least have the decency to finish it off while it was standing there waiting for you to walk up?? i am surprised your PH wasn't permanently deafened by the unexpected muzzle blast. the Montreal Moron strikes again. i bet Buzz and company can't wait for you to come back......

You should have shot the damn thing again instead of moping around!!!

shootaway,

I think you're brave to put this video up, since you knew you'd take a lot of heat for the events. I respect that courage.

Moreover, this video is instructive of what can happen when communication between the PH and the hunter is not absolutely clear. I believe this could happen to anyone. Shit happens.

It also gets confusing when you have trackers and the PH pointing at the proper "bull" to be shot. They don't always seem to be pointing to the same one. I pay strict attention to the PH, who is in charge.

I like it when the PH puts up the shooting stick, clearly indicating it's time to get ready, get steady, and shoot.

This has not happened to me yet, but it's a scenario I dread and I'm thankful it hasn't.

I'm a big believer in scope-sighted rifles. A scope helps me identify the proper animal and deliver an accurate shot.

AIU

PS. The extreme disappointment that followed would seem to be paralyzing...I can understand it.

as shitaway has posted before- he doesn't need a scope. he can shoot the eyes out of a toad with open sights at 200 yards. hopefully, it will be a male toad.

One more good reason to use a scope!

I looked at the videos, and I am even more convinced that this would most likely not have happened if you were using a scope.

Open sights don't work very well shooting in herds in the bush.

Where one does not a very clear picture in front of him.


A few years ago my friend Roy Vincent, a very experienced PH, brought along a rifle he had built himself.

It had open sights, and he wanted to try it on our safari.

He mad it very clear right at the beginning, that he would like to borrow my scoped rifle if conditions were not absolutely perfect for an open sight shot.

We found some buffalo feeding towards us, and it looked like they would pass a few yards from us.

He had his open sighted rifle with him, and me very close behind, just in case he needed my rifle.

The buffalo passed right next to us, but the bull he wanted to shoot never got in the clear.

They smelled us and ran off. We knew then that the shot would most likely be a long one, so we swapped rifles, and he went on to shoot that buffalo.

Honestly, the use of a scope in this fiasco wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Not in the least. The shot was taken before Blake gave the all clear and everyone was on the same page. As a result, the wrong animal was shot. Nothing to do with a scope or open sights and everything to do with an over excited client that didn't follow directions from his PH.

Thanks for posting a very instructive video. I hope it does not happen to me. I agree that a scope would not have made big difference. I was getting excited and impatient watching the video & I can imagine the hunter getting "bull fever"!

Ok, I'll wait for the PH to say "take him".

Shootaway

Thanks for sharing.

You others; name calling does not suit grown up men - regardless.

Good Hunting

CF

George

I don't understand why you would post this. It is not educational in the sense that is didn't show "what can happen in the fog of war". What the video showed was what can happen when the client disobeys his PH because he thinks he knows better.

Blake clearly said, "wait, wait, wait." Then you shot anyway. From Blake's reaction it is clear that he could not believe that you would disobey his clear instructions.

I have never seen a PH that clearly and openly upset at his client. I guess that stuff usually ends up on the cutting room floor.

+1
The PH should of drove him to the airport and left him there.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Honestly, the use of a scope in this fiasco wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Not in the least. The shot was taken before Blake gave the all clear and everyone was on the same page. As a result, the wrong animal was shot. Nothing to do with a scope or open sights and everything to do with an over excited client that didn't follow directions from his PH.

I don't know what happen here, but I always study my game before my safari so I don't have to rely on "the 3rd from the left" from my PH. Too many hunters head to Africa entirely relying on their PH to judge sex and trophy quality. If your interest in African animals is so limited, maybe you ought to hunt them in Texas.
Compared to many videos and stories from PHs, this client hunter is above average. He at least put his animal down with one shot. God help us if we are only held to this standard.

Guys,

At 00:48 of the second video a good bull is identified.
The PH prefers to wait for others in the herd to move up, pointing out another and another good one (which we do not see).

The client has by this time been brought into "action" mode one time too many and his adrenaline gauge is close on 'red line'.

Question: Why the PH did not angle himself and the client off to the left and try to intercept the first bull (00:48)which was basically out of the herd and seal the deal instead of trying to pick one out in the mix?

Unfortunately Shootaway allowed emotion to take control, did not wait for a confirmed identification of the target and the result was there for all to see.

However, once the error was established, the wounded cow should have been dispatched immediately with recriminations to follow later and in which case, the PH should have either instructed the client to end the sad story immediately or done it himself.

Neither appears in the video other than the wounded animal bellowing in pain - poor show on your part Blake!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
However, once the error was established, the wounded cow should have been dispatched immediately with recriminations to follow later and in which case, the PH should have either instructed the client to end the sad story immediately or done it himself.

Neither appears in the video other than the wounded animal bellowing in pain - poor show on your part Blake!

Actually I watched it several times and I believe when they ran up Blake said, "Come up, you are going to have to finish it George." At that point George turns away, obviously upset with the situation.

This is not the first time we ave seen a delay in putting in a finisher(remember the video where MS goes on and on while the buffalo is trying to get up right there in the open?)

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Guys,

At 00:48 of the second video a good bull is identified.
The PH prefers to wait for others in the herd to move up, pointing out another and another good one (which we do not see).

The client has by this time been brought into "action" mode one time too many and his adrenaline gauge is close on 'red line'.

This is a mitigating factor to me - Shootaway was told to get ready to shoot, then was hurriedly told to stop, multiple times.

IMHO, the PH should have not gone back and forth so much on the shoot-don't shoot commands. Either wait until you have The Shot, or don't say anything to the client until you are sure.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
However, once the error was established, the wounded cow should have been dispatched immediately with recriminations to follow later and in which case, the PH should have either instructed the client to end the sad story immediately or done it himself.

Neither appears in the video other than the wounded animal bellowing in pain - poor show on your part Blake!

I wouldn't jump on them for this - they were both taken aback a bit about shooting the wrong animal, and not intentionally prolonging its suffering.

It was put down with the first shot, and polished off soon enough.


.

Two good lessons here, one for the PH's and another for clients

PH's can wind the client up properly sometimes, they set up 3 times, in a very short space of time at animals that were moving across their front and not really much further away. Probably would have been better to have stalked right up and only set up once, rather than the whole "that is him get ready, no wait don't, yes that one get ready" routine going on for minutes

Clients need to wait for the proper all clear and if in doubt don't shoot

Having said that no 2 safaris are ever the same, nor the PH and the client interaction and while a video may highlight mistakes and successes it does very little to capture the atmosphere, mood and amount of pressure in the situation. Good comms and pre hunt chat can make the world of difference

One things for sure is that a hunt with an open sighted rifle and a herd of buffalo is going to rachet up the stress and pressure a few notches

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sad. I do not know what is sadder, these clips or the fact that you deleted your post on the other thread suggesting this was not your fault. I can understand why you deleted the post but to do so was shameful.

Mike, Would you care to paraphrase the statement made by "shothiswad" that was deleted?

Looks like miscommunication/confusion to me. I can hear the PH say "Wait...wait...wait..." But I can understand how the hunter might have taken that as instructions to wait for a clear shot and to shoot when clear. Beginning around 2:20 in the second video the PH excitedly says, "There's one right there, right there, right there in front of us, George. Kill it. See him come around to the side. Kill it. 'kay, wait, wait." Also, we hear what the microphone picked up and that was in a different location, and perhaps distance, from the hunter. The PH was saying "wait" under his breath and the hunter might not have heard it. Anyway, it doesn't look to me like the hunter deliberately acted counter to the instructions. In fact, the hunter looks confused immediately after the shot, like he is trying to understand why the PH is upset and what the PH is talking about.

I have been tempted time and again to hunt Africa. But every time I consider it I realize that I don't want to be led around by someone breathing down my neck telling me, "There he is. Shoot that one, right there. No, not that one, that one. Now, shoot, SHOOT!". I wouldn't feel like a hunter, just a trigger puller.

Interesting video and just proof that things don't always go as planned.

Guys- this video proves that mistakes happen. Anyone who hunts long enough will have a situation like this and most times both parties are to blame to a certain degree.

Also remember that OFTEN what you see on the DVd is confusing as the ANGLE that the camerman is taking is different from what the PH and client see. Cheers Buzz

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Guys- this video proves that mistakes happen. Anyone who hunts long enough will have a situation like this and most times both parties are to blame to a certain degree.

Also remember that OFTEN what you see on the DVd is confusing as the ANGLE that the camerman is taking is different from what the PH and client see. Cheers Buzz

Very true Buzz.

Good to see some one has ball to post some thing that did not go well.

I bet the same thing has happend to many people.
But will admit.

All the in experanced people can learn.
Is that not one of the strong points of the forum?

Thanks very much for the reminder of how things go wrong quickly.

Lets vote this one number one for the weeks learnings.

My question is this:

What would your reaction have been to these videos if they had been posted by someone other than shootaway? Someone who isn't a pompous ass? There have been worse mistakes made and people on here were more understanding.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve all this, because he does. I just think that if one of the well liked, well respected members had posted the same vids, the reactions would have been quite different.

quote:

I have been tempted time and again to hunt Africa. But every time I consider it I realize that I don't want to be led around by someone breathing down my neck telling me, "There he is. Shoot that one, right there. No, not that one, that one. Now, shoot, SHOOT!". I wouldn't feel like a hunter, just a trigger puller.

Grenadier,
I hope that is not your only impression of Africa because it is a misguided impression. Your PH and trackers are your team, no different than your guide and wranglers on a N.A. hunting trip. In the end a guided hunt in Africa will have many similarities and a few differences as well. You decide what and when you shoot. As in any hunt the PH/guide tries to put you on the best trophy by describing it's size and proximity to other animals in the herd. It is instruction for clarity, not demands. But if that is keeping you from Africa, you are cheating yourself, my friend.

And I agree with other who say you take certain risks and create more challenges hunting without a scope. From picking out the right animal to winding a bullet through brush to picking out a bull in the shadows. I respect your right to hunt how you want and I to do the same, but you do limit your ability to be successful. If it is done because that is the way you want to hunt, go for it. If it is for pride, it is hubris. We owe more to the animal and ourselves.

That said, we are all human and we all make mistakes, even with scoped rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Guys- this video proves that mistakes happen. Anyone who hunts long enough will have a situation like this and most times both parties are to blame to a certain degree.

Also remember that OFTEN what you see on the DVd is confusing as the ANGLE that the camerman is taking is different from what the PH and client see. Cheers Buzz

Very true Buzz.

It too a lot of courage to post those video's. Saeed and Buzz nailed it down. Use a scope at distances in such thick cover. Open sights are absolutely great in the close up shots but this was not that close. This was not a Sgt. York situation, chill out, make certain that you have the proper shot. The camera angle as Buzz said is so often vastly different from what the shooter sees.

In my opinion the totally unforgiving part of this sad tale is that the poor PH was completely un-aware of the shot about to be taken and could have suffered serious damage to his hearing. I am certain there was some damage done on that shot. There are more buffalo, no animal is worth hurting anyone.

A proper scope, proper restraint and making certain everyone was aware of what was happening would have made for a much happier outcome here.

This is truly a great opportunity for others to hopefully learn to control their emotions under such conditions.

Cheers,

GOB

I will reserve judgement in this situation, It appears George made a mistake, fessed up in front of a large, extremely hypocritical audience.

Listen to the short, choppy and labored breathing, I don't know if this was George's first or 50th buffalo, doesn't matter.

I see this forum full of "experts", being hypercritical of a guy that shot the wrong animal, yet willing to forgive and even stand shoulder to shoulder of a guy that actually shot another man in the back.

Chicken shit.

quote:

It appears George made a mistake, fessed up in front of a large, extremely hypocritical audience.

This........

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sad. I do not know what is sadder, these clips or the fact that you deleted your post on the other thread suggesting this was not your fault. I can understand why you deleted the post but to do so was shameful.

+1 ... I'd say the PH is one cool customer, because he controlled himself about as well as he could, when some of the PHs I know would have taken him to camp, and told him to pack his bags!

...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I will reserve judgement in this situation, It appears George made a mistake, fessed up in front of a large, extremely hypocritical audience.

Listen to the short, choppy and labored breathing, I don't know if this was George's first or 50th buffalo, doesn't matter.

I see this forum full of "experts", being hypercritical of a guy that shot the wrong animal, yet willing to forgive and even stand shoulder to shoulder of a guy that actually shot another man in the back.

Chicken shit.

Respect and understanding are something earned over time based on the body of a man's work. There is a good reason why one man is deserving of respect and understanding and another is not.

. . . oh and by the way, George did not post this out of the goodness of his heart or as a learning experience for all hunters, he did it because he was called out on another thread for insinuating that the PH was at fault.

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:

In my opinion the totally unforgiving part of this sad tale is that the poor PH was completely un-aware of the shot about to be taken and could have suffered serious damage to his hearing. I am certain there was some damage done on that shot.

The angle may be deceiving, but I don't believe that was as bad as it looked. I would be willing to bet that the PH has suffered far worse over his career.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

+1 ... I'd say the PH is one cool customer, because he controlled himself about as well as he could, when some of the PHs I know would have taken him to camp, and told him to pack his bags!

You don't really believe that do you?

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I will reserve judgement in this situation, It appears George made a mistake, fessed up in front of a large, extremely hypocritical audience.

Listen to the short, choppy and labored breathing, I don't know if this was George's first or 50th buffalo, doesn't matter.

I see this forum full of "experts", being hypercritical of a guy that shot the wrong animal, yet willing to forgive and even stand shoulder to shoulder of a guy that actually shot another man in the back.

Chicken shit.

You Sir are the real winner of the prize, the shoot em in the back hero simply had an accident (nothing to do with panic or gun safety after all he is "one of the golden boys") while the guy who blew the call and showed it is vilified by so many. This PH may have a bit of hearing loss but he certainly ha not been destroyed by an "accident". The last I heard about that situation the poor victim there is really suffering financially and mentally while the shooter there is still banging away.

Interesting how you were the only one who had the courage to say I am certain what so many thought.

The bottom line is neither incident should have taken place but it did and the one who gets rained on from above is your are right. The one that does not fit in with the proper circle.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I will reserve judgement in this situation, It appears George made a mistake, fessed up in front of a large, extremely hypocritical audience.

Listen to the short, choppy and labored breathing, I don't know if this was George's first or 50th buffalo, doesn't matter.

I see this forum full of "experts", being hypercritical of a guy that shot the wrong animal, yet willing to forgive and even stand shoulder to shoulder of a guy that actually shot another man in the back.

Chicken shit.

Respect and understanding are something earned over time based on the body of a man's work. There is a good reason why one man is deserving of respect and understanding and another is not.

. . . oh and by the way, George did not post this out of the goodness of his heart or as a learning experience for all hunters, he did it because he was called out on another thread for insinuating that the PH was at fault.

Mike,

I carefully worded my response as to not call Tim's incident into play. I merely wanted to use the situation to point out the forum's hypocrisy, as to the status on an internet forum and the large delta of responses based on ones celebrity or popularity.

I'm certain that every one of us here have been completely honest and posted all of our gaff's for all to see here.

Hell, I see some of the "Forum Elders" whom I've never seen a single trophy photo from, piling on as is usual.

I am in no way am defending George as much as calling out the expert naysayers.

I think guides and PH's need to take into consideration that their clients don't have the experience that they have, and that in certain situations they need to be more patient with their clients. The PH or guide is use to looking through grass and brush to find animals and can't expect a client to be as skilled as they are. When the professional are looking through their binos they can't just assume the client sees the same animal they are looking at, and lets remember the Ph is going to be walking In front of you and will usually spot the animals first, so be patient with the client since it might take a few extra seconds to acquire the target. Also it doesn't help to scream SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT in the clients ear.
After saying all that, I saw nothing wrong with how Buzz conducted this hunt and if the PH or guide tells you not to shoot you DON'T shoot.

Videos apparently have been deleted, or is it my computer?

He must have deleted them as I get "Video not Found", message.

Not deleted. I just watched them.

Not a very happy PH......


Torbjorn

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

+1 ... I'd say the PH is one cool customer, because he controlled himself about as well as he could, when some of the PHs I know would have taken him to camp, and told him to pack his bags!

You don't really believe that do you?

No! you are right and it was uncalled for! Admittedly it was a kneejerk reaction on my part, based on George's past film clips where he always seems to be in outer space and not really listening to instruction from the PH! That could very well be a mistaken perception on my part!

If that is the case George, I apologize!

.................................................. Wait till I dig my foxhole! ...

shootaway (George)- Who am I to jump all over you and past judgment...I've seen MANY of your prior posts/threads here and can certainly understand why some folks are treating you as such.

However, I just HOPE that some day you will find peace with yourself, life, and someday make a much better go at it on your next safari.

Bless you brother!

Roland

Apart from this incident, shootaway is suffering because of all his previous posts which from what I have seen are full of BS and he knows best, doesn't want t listen.

I didn't see the post where he insinuated that the PH was at fault but based on his previous posts, that wouldn't surprise me on bit.

What goes around comes around.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Apart from this incident, shootaway is suffering because of all his previous posts which from what I have seen are full of BS and he knows best, doesn't want t listen.

I didn't see the post where he insinuated that the PH was at fault but based on his previous posts, that wouldn't surprise me on bit.

What goes around comes around.

I thoroughly understand the full measure of everything you have said...