quote:

Originally posted by FOsteology:
He must have deleted them as I get "Video not Found", message.

So do I, but others seem to be able to see them.

Must be our servers or computer settings?

well, from the original 3 videos posted, we now can see #4- the famous kill shot. the buffalo apparently "chose" how she wanted to die- standing still with her ass pointed at George..... seems appropriate. also notice the very first post- no mea culpa. and George hasn't responded anywhere with a simple "i screwed up". Mike J, i can't seem to find the thread where George seems to try and lay some blame on the PH in some manner. where is it??

This was obviously not my best day out hunting.
I look forward to better moments hunting in Africa again.

Just to pay up and hope they have s cow on licens really not the worst thing that could happen..did you get your bull also?

Yes I got my bull.

An unfortunate outcome for anyone when you do not continue to listen to your Professional Hunter, do not heed his advice to the fullest and then you decide to take things into your own hands. In my opinion, those are down right embarrassing videos, to say the very least. From a review of the videos, I don't see any blame here that could be attributed to the Professional Hunter. Moreover, having hunted the Dande Safari area, I can personally attest to having seen and shot some outstanding buffalo bulls there!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
well, from the original 3 videos posted, we now can see #4- the famous kill shot. the buffalo apparently "chose" how she wanted to die- standing still with her ass pointed at George..... seems appropriate. also notice the very first post- no mea culpa. and George hasn't responded anywhere with a simple "i screwed up". Mike J, i can't seem to find the thread where George seems to try and lay some blame on the PH in some manner. where is it??

Jerry, I think Mike is referring to this post where he claims the PH, trackers, and ranger couldn't obtain meat so he just did it on his own.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...561021291#6561021291

However, this isn't new with George. Do a search on his report from this hunt. He attempted to place blame on Blake several times. If you watch Shootaway's video of he and Blake hunting elephant, you'll see Blake continually had to tell him to put the safety back on the rifle and several times, had to reach back and move George's rifle barrel from being pointed at the back of his head, with the safety off and George being Shit for Scared of elephants.

For the record, I've hunted with Blake 3 times. Twice when he was an Appie, and last year as a fully licensed PH. I'm hunting with him again in 12 weeks. Of the 14 PHs I've hunted with to date, I rate Blake Whilhelmi as No. 1. He's young and new as a fully licensed PH but he knows what he's doing, works hard, gives good and clear instructions, is conscientious concerning sustainable hunting as a conservation tool, and is highly capable in terms of ability. I would recommend him to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
However, once the error was established, the wounded cow should have been dispatched immediately with recriminations to follow later and in which case, the PH should have either instructed the client to end the sad story immediately or done it himself.

Neither appears in the video other than the wounded animal bellowing in pain - poor show on your part Blake!

Really fujotupu? What shows on the video is all of a few seconds or so where Blake tells George he will have to shoot his cow again. A few seconds or so! Hardly a Mark Sullivan "let the buffalo choose how it's going to die" clip! Typically, the PH allows the client to shoot his own animals without interference unless the animal is going to escape, even with a cock up like George pulled. That's exactly what Blake did here.


I also see that George just deleted another little snide comment from his last post. Luckily I captured it prior to posting this:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I wouldn't hunt buffalo again in that area if you paid me.

Yep, there you go again George. Blaming others for your total incompetence in the field. What exactly was the problem with buffalo "in that area"? The area in question being The Dande Safari Area! Yea, that "area" isn't known as a great "safari area" is it?

Let's face it George, you can't shoot worth a shit, from you own posted targets. You can't hunt worth a shit, from your own posted DVDs. You can't listen to and follow instruction because you know it all. And now there weren't any good bulls in the herd from which you shot your cow so you wouldn't hunt the Dande Safari Area again even if someone paid you? More likely you'll have a hard time finding anyone YOU can pay to take you hunting again.

Mike called it George. You are an ass, and more importantly, you don't even know you're an ass!

shootaway,

Congrats on your bull and thanks for having the guts to post your video. We can all learn from it.

Cheers,

Guns

quote:

I carefully worded my response as to not call Tim's incident into play. I merely wanted to use the situation to point out the forum's hypocrisy, as to the status on an internet forum and the large delta of responses based on ones celebrity or popularity.

Unfortunately, this same mind set occurs on every forum/chat room/bulletin board on the internet, regardless of the theme of the site.

One problem that manifests itself is that people using the various sites, keep running into each other on the various sites and they bring the same hatreds/prejudices and cronies/buddies with them as they travel to and thru the various sites.

From experience, as many of you making comments know, once a person makes enemies and develops a "Reputation" on these sites, they never are able to shake/change or lose that reputation. It does not matter if they leave a site for an extended period of time, the first time they make a post or response, the red flags pop up and the haters automatically jump to a conclusion without giving the person the benefit of the doubt.

These sites are supposed to be for the exchange of information/knowledge and experience of like minded individuals. From what I have experienced, many folks use these sites because they do not have anyone that is within the daily normal social/family group that has the shares the same experiences or interests or if they do, not at the same level.

Hunters/Shooters are, as a group, highly opinionated as to their beliefs/ideas/feelings in regards to hunting/shooting to a point of being overly passionate concerning hunting/shooting. As with any other, for the sake of a better term, "Religion or Ideology" hunters/shooters/gun owners look for and reach out to those members of these sites whose own thoughts/beliefs/ideas/concepts most closely match or mesh with theirs.

People that deviate from that ideology, and depending upon the amount of that deviation, can and often do end up as "enemies" and everything they put into a post or response is subject to judgment of the self appointed "Kangaroo Court".

Back to the topic, I could not pull up the videos, and did not see the earlier discussion where some feel blame was placed on the PH. With that in mind, from the responses that I have read a mistake or series of mistakes were made, a cow buffalo instead of a bull was shot, the view provided by the camera may not/was not the same as the view the hunter and PH were looking at.

As someone that is not thought of real well by various individuals on this site, my only real wish for the future, is that members of AR and all the others sites on the internet devoted to hunters/shooters/gun owners, learn to set aside supposed personal differences and embrace the concept that all of us share an interest/interests, hunting and guns, they way too many people and a number that is growing, while our numbers are dwindling, want to take from us.

If we don't put aside these petty, personal differences over supposed slights perpetrated by individuals we have never met or will meet, in the end we will all lose. While learning how to coexist and stand together may not stop the inevitable, it might keep it from happening faster than it will if we don't.

I cant believe I hunt with the same company that hunts with some of you guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


Mike called it George. You are an ass, and more importantly, you don't even know you're an ass!

And that's the sad clincher right there!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[QUOTE]
One problem that manifests itself is that people using the various sites, keep running into each other on the various sites and they bring the same hatreds/prejudices and cronies/buddies with them as they travel to and thru the various sites.

From experience, as many of you making comments know, once a person makes enemies and develops a "Reputation" on these sites, they never are able to shake/change or lose that reputation. It does not matter if they leave a site for an extended period of time, the first time they make a post or response, the red flags pop up and the haters automatically jump to a conclusion without giving the person the benefit of the doubt.

These sites are supposed to be for the exchange of information/knowledge and experience of like minded individuals.

People that deviate from that ideology, and depending upon the amount of that deviation, can and often do end up as "enemies" and everything they put into a post or response is subject to judgment of the self appointed "Kangaroo Court".

Crazy Horse

Don't disagree with you but it also works both ways.

IMHO, If you come on here and ask for help / advice, you normally get it.

The problem was, shootaway came on here to ask advice and PLENTY of people put in the time and effort to answer his questions, help him out. The problem was, he then threw it back in the posters faces saying we were wrong, etc etc and generally ignoring any advice he asked for as well as being abusive about it.

So, not so much a "Kangaroo Court" but maybe more of a case of make your bed and sleep in it.

You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink !

Todd summed it up very well indeed in the following.

"Let's face it George, you can't shoot worth a shit, from you own posted targets. You can't hunt worth a shit, from your own posted DVDs. You can't listen to and follow instruction because you know it all. ..........

Mike called it George. You are an ass, and more importantly,
you don't even know you're an ass!"

I agree, it is a two way street and people can and do set the tone for how they are treated or accepted/rejected by others on a site.

I just wonder how such attitudes and interactions will effect hunters/shooters/gun owners in the long run when trying to oppose those wanting to take those activities away from us.

Not defending anyone, because over the years on these sites I have made an ass of myself on many occasions and fully understand how the game works.

It would just be somewhat comforting to know that as a group we can put the petty behaviors aside and as a group stand united to defend the things we have in common.

When people are not happy with themselves for whatever reason and dont like life that much that is what they do.That is try to degrade others from there jelousy.This sight is full of people like them and they form a gang were other losers are welcome.

THE DAY I AM JEALOUS OF YOU, GEORGE, WILL BE THE DAY AFTER I AM 6 FEET UNDER>>>> you STILL just don't get it- and never will.

Don't know any of the parties involved and really don't understand the fuss since I can't see the videos. I gather someone shot a cow Buffalo by mistake and is being taken to task for it. I think it was my third safari and we were hunting Tsessebe and it had been explained how difficult it was to sex them on the fly so to speak. Finally spotted some shootable animals and the PH said ok get ready. He said 'shoot the third one' which I promptly did, the Mdl 70 spoke and the 260gr 375H&H made the distinct thump of a solid hit. Down went number 3 Tsessebe from the FRONT on the single file line they were in. The PH is yelling wrong one,wrong one. After a second shot to finish off the wounded Tsessebe he told me I told you to shoot the 3rd one which I replied ,I Did. He then told me he meant the third from the REAR. Who was in error?Incidentally it WAS a female and when the property owner saw it hanging he was upset considerably as he prized his property for having big bulls and was insistant that I shoot another for free.

Shootaway

No, people don't try to degrade others from jealousy, just stupidity of which I am afraid
to say you have shown a lot of.

And not everyone agrees with everyone else on here. I (and I would say to an extent 465H&H)
disagree with Michael458, but we still discuss
pros and cons.

But in your case, you ask, say, a question
about shooting, put up a target, a few give
you the correct suggestions as to how to correct
/ make the target better and you ignore it and then tell us we are all wrong.

Considering most people have gone through the same thing at some point and then solved it
by the methods suggested to you, is it any wonder people get their back up.

Gang ?
No, not a gang, you just pissed off a whole heap of like minded people most of who are not afraid to call a spade a spade. Yes, those same people who are willing to speak up and answer your questions.

shootaway, what did you learn from the accidental cow experience - that is, what would you do differently to avoid this in the future? AIU

Sir,

With all the name calling and hate messages you have really asked the $64,000.00 question.

It truly is a fool who does not learn from their mistakes.

Let us see how the gentleman deals with a really very simple straight foreword question.

Thanks,

GOB

Great story and well told.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
shootaway, what did you learn from the accidental cow experience - that is, what would you do differently to avoid this in the future? AIU

Hunting Africa is supposed to be a pleasure for me and that I should avoid things that I think might not make it such.This includes every detail about choosing where,when and what to hunt and with whom,and the cost.I should not ignore things that I suspect will not turn out right just because I really want to go hunting.

???

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
shootaway, what did you learn from the accidental cow experience - that is, what would you do differently to avoid this in the future? AIU

Hunting Africa is supposed to be a pleasure for me and that I should avoid things that I think might not make it such.This includes every detail about choosing where,when and what to hunt and with whom,and the cost.I should not ignore things that I suspect will not turn out right just because I really want to go hunting.

Gentlemen,

Very interesting thread indeed.

As Buzz has mentioned, hunt long enough, and some screw up will come your way.

A few years ago I was hunting in Chete, Zimbabwe, with my friend Roy Vincent.

Alan was also with us as a video camera man.

Here we had three individuals who have hunted together for many years, so for all intent and purpose, one would not expect anything to go wrong.

But, in the bush things sometimes tend to turn wrong without anyone knowing until after the fact.

We followed some bulls into very thick bush.

We caught up with them, and as usually happens in thick bush, one only gets to see only part of an animal.

I fired at one and they al took off. We ran after them.

A few yards further, we saw them again.

The bush was very thick, and if one moves a couple of inches either way one looses sight of them.

Both Roy and Alan are taller than me.

Roy said "There he is, shooting him again!", as he put the shooting sticks up.

I got onto the sticks, and could only see one bull looking back at us.

I said "are you sure it is him?"
Roy said "yes it is!"

I fired at the bull.

Suddenly, I saw another bull jump up, which was lying down between us and the one that was standing, which I had shot.

Roy "What happened?"
I said "I shot the one standing, because I could not see the one lying down. That is why I asked you if it was the right one.

We ran after them again, and a few yards further, we found both dead.

Every year we hunt, we shoot some buffalo in relatively thick bush or thick grass.

For those who have watched our safari of last year, remember the first buffalo I shot?

We found them feeding in the morning, and managed to get ahead of them.

They were passing by as they fed, mostly cows and young bulls.

Then the one we were after became partly visible, when I shot him.

Roy actually made the comment "good thing you two work well together. Not many people would have got that one"

Screw ups do happen in the bush.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

Very interesting thread indeed.

As Buzz has mentioned, hunt long enough, and some screw up will come your way.

A few years ago I was hunting in Chete, Zimbabwe, with my friend Roy Vincent.

Alan was also with us as a video camera man.

Here we had three individuals who have hunted together for many years, so for all intent and purpose, one would not expect anything to go wrong.

But, in the bush things sometimes tend to turn wrong without anyone knowing until after the fact.

We followed some bulls into very thick bush.

We caught up with them, and as usually happens in thick bush, one only gets to see only part of an animal.

I fired at one and they al took off. We ran after them.

A few yards further, we saw them again.

The bush was very thick, and if one moves a couple of inches either way one looses sight of them.

Both Roy and Alan are taller than me.

Roy said "There he is, shooting him again!", as he put the shooting sticks up.

I got onto the sticks, and could only see one bull looking back at us.

I said "are you sure it is him?"
Roy said "yes it is!"

I fired at the bull.

Suddenly, I saw another bull jump up, which was lying down between us and the one that was standing, which I had shot.

Roy "What happened?"
I said "I shot the one standing, because I could not see the one lying down. That is why I asked you if it was the right one.

We ran after them again, and a few yards further, we found both dead.

Every year we hunt, we shoot some buffalo in relatively thick bush or thick grass.

For those who have watched our safari of last year, remember the first buffalo I shot?

We found them feeding in the morning, and managed to get ahead of them.

They were passing by as they fed, mostly cows and young bulls.

Then the one we were after became partly visible, when I shot him.

Roy actually made the comment "good thing you two work well together. Not many people would have got that one"

Screw ups do happen in the bush.

Saeed, yes, screw ups do happen in the bush, but you missed the point of all of this. It's not that George cocked up by shooting the cow instead of the bull, but rather that he was once again bragging about how superior he is to everyone else. In this case, he was bragging that the hunting party was attempting to get meat for the trackers and ranger. Each time the truck stopped, the PH would start giving him instructions and they ended up unsuccessful. According to George, he then just went out on his own and brought home their dinner in his hands.

He was once again bragging on his non-existent superiority over others on this site and his PH in particular. He may well not have been successful in getting meat for the team, but he damn sure didn't just go out and get their dinner on his own. That was a lie in addition to his arrogance. And what this sad series of videos points out is that by not paying attention to his PHs instructions, and just going it alone (as he claimed) using his own judgement of when to shoot and which animal to shoot, resulted in him shooting the wrong animal, then when he screwed it up, he tried to blame the PH.

Sorry but that's BULLSHIT! Or in George's case, COWSHIT!!

Good one, Todd. What a bunch of cowshit.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

Very interesting thread indeed.

As Buzz has mentioned, hunt long enough, and some screw up will come your way.

A few years ago I was hunting in Chete, Zimbabwe, with my friend Roy Vincent.

Alan was also with us as a video camera man.

Here we had three individuals who have hunted together for many years, so for all intent and purpose, one would not expect anything to go wrong.

But, in the bush things sometimes tend to turn wrong without anyone knowing until after the fact.

We followed some bulls into very thick bush.

We caught up with them, and as usually happens in thick bush, one only gets to see only part of an animal.

I fired at one and they al took off. We ran after them.

A few yards further, we saw them again.

The bush was very thick, and if one moves a couple of inches either way one looses sight of them.

Both Roy and Alan are taller than me.

Roy said "There he is, shooting him again!", as he put the shooting sticks up.

I got onto the sticks, and could only see one bull looking back at us.

I said "are you sure it is him?"
Roy said "yes it is!"

I fired at the bull.

Suddenly, I saw another bull jump up, which was lying down between us and the one that was standing, which I had shot.

Roy "What happened?"
I said "I shot the one standing, because I could not see the one lying down. That is why I asked you if it was the right one.

We ran after them again, and a few yards further, we found both dead.

Every year we hunt, we shoot some buffalo in relatively thick bush or thick grass.

For those who have watched our safari of last year, remember the first buffalo I shot?

We found them feeding in the morning, and managed to get ahead of them.

They were passing by as they fed, mostly cows and young bulls.

Then the one we were after became partly visible, when I shot him.

Roy actually made the comment "good thing you two work well together. Not many people would have got that one"

Screw ups do happen in the bush.

Saeed, yes, screw ups do happen in the bush, but you missed the point of all of this. It's not that George cocked up by shooting the cow instead of the bull, but rather that he was once again bragging about how superior he is to everyone else. In this case, he was bragging that the hunting party was attempting to get meat for the trackers and ranger. Each time the truck stopped, the PH would start giving him instructions and they ended up unsuccessful. According to George, he then just went out on his own and brought home their dinner in his hands.

He was once again bragging on his non-existent superiority over others on this site and his PH in particular. He may well not have been successful in getting meat for the team, but he damn sure didn't just go out and get their dinner on his own. That was a lie in addition to his arrogance. And what this sad series of videos points out is that by not paying attention to his PHs instructions, and just going it alone (as he claimed) using his own judgement of when to shoot and which animal to shoot, resulted in him shooting the wrong animal, then when he screwed it up, he tried to blame the PH.

Sorry but that's BULLSHIT! Or in George's case, COWSHIT!!

I am afraid I did not see any of that.

And I thought it was not legal for a visiting hunter to go out and hunt by himself anyway?

i think the cow shoot was a different item than the meat hunt he posted for staff rations.1 was a cock up- 1 was illegal....

My issue was George's insinuating that the PH was the reason he shot the cow by mistake. Then he deletes that post once he is called out as a liar. Well the video evidence is clear, Blake tells him to wait, several times, and George spontaneously and unexpectedly shoots. That does not fall into the category of a screw up, that is someone failing to listen to the instructions of the PH. To even hint that the PH was at fault is complete bullshit . . . I mean cowshit.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

+1 ... I'd say the PH is one cool customer, because he controlled himself about as well as he could, when some of the PHs I know would have taken him to camp, and told him to pack his bags!

You don't really believe that do you?

No! you are right and it was uncalled for! Admittedly it was a kneejerk reaction on my part, based on George's past film clips where he always seems to be in outer space and not really listening to instruction from the PH! That could very well be a mistaken perception on my part!

If that is the case George, I apologize!

.................................................. Wait till I dig my foxhole! ...

I didn't mean to call you out. I was only pointing out that it would take more than this to get escorted to the airport.

I know George's reputation here, but I have to admit that I have not watched many of his videos.

Honestly, I just recently accepted that he was a real person. I had thought he was just some troll jerking our chains.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
shootaway, what did you learn from the accidental cow experience - that is, what would you do differently to avoid this in the future? AIU

Hunting Africa is supposed to be a pleasure for me and that I should avoid things that I think might not make it such.This includes every detail about choosing where,when and what to hunt and with whom,and the cost.I should not ignore things that I suspect will not turn out right just because I really want to go hunting.

shootaway,

I'm confused by your response. What did you ignore that led to a suboptimal outcome?

AIU

Now all you guys please give credit where credit is due, at least old George used a tree for a rest instead of shooting off hand like he is so famously known for. Just think had he done so he would have mowed down the whole herd, judging by the many practice targets he posts!!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
shootaway, what did you learn from the accidental cow experience - that is, what would you do differently to avoid this in the future? AIU

Hunting Africa is supposed to be a pleasure for me and that I should avoid things that I think might not make it such.This includes every detail about choosing where,when and what to hunt and with whom,and the cost.I should not ignore things that I suspect will not turn out right just because I really want to go hunting.

I have been on many safaris, with many different outfitters and PHs, in 3 separate countries.

And I have had nothing but great hunts, without any exceptions.

I would gladly hunt with any of the great folks I have hunted with before.

But, you are right.

One should be choosy when picking someone to hunt with.

In this case, I don't see any problem, as the people you have hunted with have a very enviable reputation.

Just an observation here from someone that has no horse in this race. In looking back thru all the responses and comments that have been made including those made by the OP, it appears that nothing anyone has said, Pro or Con regarding what happened or may have happened, or the attitudes or opinions of the responders toward the individual making the OP, pro or con, it has all been a waste of band width.

Other individuals that have experience hunting Africa, have experience hunting buffalo and have knowledge of the reputation of the PH involved have stated that accidents/mistakes can and do happen when in tight shooting situations and from what I have seen from the responses made by the OP, that particular individual seems either unable or completely unwilling to take any responsibility for his actions during the incident and is only interested in finding someone to lay blame on while hanging onto his own grandiose concept of his personal abilities.

Damn, I wish I could view these videos.

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Damn, I wish I could view these videos.

I have downloaded 1,2 and 3 but I do not have number 4.

If shootaway agrees, I will be happy to put them up for download.

The video shows a grassy area with uneven ground and a small herd.The sun is also in our face.The PH asks the hunter to set up a few times.The first time on a bull that is 200yds away behind some trees.Things are happening fast and we cannot get an easy target.At last we get closer to the herd which has just spotted us and part of it starts going.The PH sees a bull in front of him and tells the hunter it is that one there he wants him to shoot.The hunter sets up but a cow moves along side it(unseen by the hunter).The hunter momemtarilty takes his eye off the target and does not see the bull walking away and thinks the cow is the bull.The PH does not think that this may have caused confusion.He says to the hunter very softly,wait wait wait in a way that may mean take your time and aim or steady steady steady.The hunter has an easy shot and goes ahead not seeing that it is the cow that is in its place.The PH is upset and so is the hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Damn, I wish I could view these videos.

I have downloaded 1,2 and 3 but I do not have number 4.

If shootaway agrees, I will be happy to put them up for download.

go ahead,Saeed.I dont mind

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The PH does not think that this may have caused confusion.He says to the hunter very softly,wait wait wait in a way that may mean take your time and aim.The hunter has an easy shot and goes ahead not seeing that it is the cow that is in its place.The PH is upset and so is the hunter.

Maybe in Montreal the word has a different meaning but in Africa the word "wait" means just that - wait I.e. don't shoot...

Mistakes happen, but to blame the PH or area in this instance is in my opinion unjustified.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The PH does not think that this may have caused confusion.He says to the hunter very softly,wait wait wait in a way that may mean take your time and aim.The hunter has an easy shot and goes ahead not seeing that it is the cow that is in its place.The PH is upset and so is the hunter.

Maybe in Montreal the word has a different meaning but in Africa the word "wait" means just that - wait I.e. don't shoot...

Mistakes happen, but to blame the PH or area in this instance is in my opinion unjustified.

There must be more queers living in Africa than in Quebec.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The PH does not think that this may have caused confusion.He says to the hunter very softly,wait wait wait in a way that may mean take your time and aim.The hunter has an easy shot and goes ahead not seeing that it is the cow that is in its place.The PH is upset and so is the hunter.

Maybe in Montreal the word has a different meaning but in Africa the word "wait" means just that - wait I.e. don't shoot...

Mistakes happen, but to blame the PH or area in this instance is in my opinion unjustified.

There must be more queers living in Africa than in Quebec.

Yes, probably... But in California there are more...