You definitely need something like this.

With very minor experience, I agree with Shakaris choice. I have killed two leopards. One (last July) fell dead under the tree.

A couple years ago however I made a poor initial shot which went thru only the meat on the front leg just under the belly. That leopard jumped from the limb and ran into the brush. I cannot explain how bad you feel when that happens. You have the distinct feeling that you are going to be responsible for someone getting hurt.

I had initially shot right at sunset plus. We were not using a light. By the time the truck arrived and we were assembled under the tree looking at one or two spots of blood, it was completely dark.

A tracker went first in line carrying only a flashlight which he was mainly shining on the ground immediately in front of him. Next in line was the PH with his old reliable iron sighted 375 and a light which he was sweeping back and forth at the brush ahead.

I followed the PH. I had a light which I held with the same hand as the forearm on the rifle. We had to duck under limbs and we were climbing a slight rise as we started into the bush.

Prior to going in, the driver handed me my Searcy 470 which he brought from the truck. I handed the driver my scope sighted 375 that I had taken the poor shot with. The driver was behind and slightly to the side of me as we went in. He had no light. Behind the driver was another tracker.

About 30 yards into the bush the lead tracker spotted the leopard about 10 yards in front of him. Just as he stopped and said "Chui" the leopard came straight for him. He deftly moved to the side and the PH's shot raked the ribs of the cat which was coming fast and dodging brush between him and the PH. It was not a straight line charge. The leopard did not go down but was bumped sideways by the PH's shot.

As it angled back toward us the driver shot with the scoped 375 and missed.

Next I shot with the 470 hitting it in the front shoulder and the leopard went instantly limp. I was holding a two cell flashlight under the forearm with my left hand and at the recoil I dropped the light. A second shot wasn't necessary however due to dropping the light, I would not have had time to make another shot. Also, I am not sure I could have hit the leopard had it not been bumped slightly sideways and slowed down by the PH's hit.

All this happened so quickly that the three shots were almost like a semi-auto shotgun speed.

Like Shakaris picture shows, the place where this took place was very brushy and from what I was told that is the kind of place wounded cats typically head for.

If I had to go through that again, I would want a short barreled double rifle with no scope on it that I could aim quickly in a brushy place. Just as important to me would be a head lamp -- or else I would duct tape a small bright flahlight under the barrels.

Much better would be to make a good first shot so you do not have to go in at all. Unless you are an experienced PH or former swat team member it is a very unfamiliar and confusing situation with the brush, darkness, people moving, shadows from a couple lights swinging back and forth etc.

I had lunch with three PHs in Zimbabwe once when this question came up. All three used different rifles for leopard back up. One used a 458 bolt, another an FN 308 semi automatic, and the third a Benelli 12 bore. All carried a handgun when doing leopard or lion follow-up. After much discussion the consensus was a 12 bore skeet gun shooting slugs might not be a bad way to go.

Never shot a Leapord however; my experience in Vietnam with a shotgun at close range mirrors the "dented skull" mentioned earlier. Federal provided us with nickel plated 00 buck the results of which two of us carried ithaca 37s and one carried an old browning A5. The differance in terminal performance was considerable.

The only reason I tell this is because we all look to the best bullet for our rifle, we might consider the same for a scattergun. Nickel or even heavy copper plated might give a different result than the standard unplated soft lead.

Just something for thought.

Tis a good day, snow is falling!
SFC E7

One additional thought on buckshot. My PH friend in Zim only uses the Remington PLATED shot in the binder that they load now. My thought has always been theat those are .32 cal pellets or some such and have no individual energy to speak of. It's like using a 32ACP on them. Incidentally I believe Lou Hallamore's book was written long before the video I watched was made. This was a locally made Zim video of a bunch of PH's talking and running tests. Don't think it was a commercial video.

When you hunt with dogs, the leopard will almost always bay with is butt in a thick thorny bush aand when you move closer to take the shot and make eye contact with the leopard, he almost always comes for you. So by definition, your first shot is likely to be at a charging leopard. That means he will be at chest height.

I would NOT use a heavy caliber rifle in this situation...too slow to recover for a second shot. I have seen it done with a shotgun with LG shot (I think there are 8 30 cal pellets in that sucker) more than once, and in one case the PH made a shot a split second after the client. I wouldn't recommend full choke, IC is better, you are shooting very close. Or if a double (the best weapon in this situation imho), IC and Mod. Use the Mod bbl first, if you can get a shot off before he gets too close.

Second best choice would be a medium cal double rifle, like 9.3x74R.

Last choice would be a bolt rifle.

I witnessed a charge first hand. I wrote a pretty long account and posted it on the African trip report page. A shotgun can be an issue with dogs. During the charged that I saw, I’m not sure the PH could have shot without hitting several dogs. I’m sure he would have shot, but it would have been difficult. (The PH had a .458 Lott and hit the leopard square in the chest at about 10 feet, that really slowed it down!)

After chatting with three PHs regarding leopard follow up I came to the conclusion that the shotgun's main advantage was its fast handling and light weight and, in some cases, the familiarity that comes with shooting thousands of rounds at clay targets. he downside was the poor performance of shat loads.

I think that if I'm ever in the situation I'd choose my Merkel 12/12.9.3x74R with riuley rifled choke tubes in place and rifled slugs. I am working up this gun at present and think that, in the next few months I'll get loads that will put the right and left barrels into a single group at the same POI as the rifle barrel.

The advantages of a drilling is that it handles as well as most shotties and gives you a rifle barrel that can be used should a long shot be needed and two slugs that should stop any cat.

MIKE

9.3x74R double in my 28g framed Merkel.

Step 1: Remove scope.

Step 2: Consult Will.

quote:

German Hubertus Drilling in 12 x 12 x 9.3x74R with claw scope. Game scene engraved boxlock, Greener safe, indicators, extractors, tang selector cocks rifle, double underlugs, 3rd fastener.

OR

quote:

Hubertus Vierling 22 hornx 16x16x 8x57JR prewar boxlock. Wieght 6 1/2 lbs, extractors, greener safe, dbl triggers and set triggers.

4 shots!

what about my M-16 with SS109? 30-round Orlite mag full!

Rich
DRSS

I read some of those posts about leopards and just was wondering about weather or not a 10ga shotgun loaded up with triple 000 Buck would take care of business. It seems to me to work well on angry 400lb hogs.

TONK

Fortunately, my leopard was dead under the tree. Had we needed a follow-up, I would have been glad to comply with my PH's opinions on the subject. Most of the guys who've hunted a few years as a PH have experience with charging cats.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
what about my M-16 with SS109? 30-round Orlite mag full!

Rich
DRSS

With the speed of leopards, I'm not sure 30 rounds is better than one, though it may certainly boost one's confidence to know you had the extra ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Thank A Vet for Freedom!:
I read some of those posts about leopards and just was wondering about weather or not a 10ga shotgun loaded up with triple 000 Buck would take care of business. It seems to me to work well on angry 400lb hogs.

TONK

Too bulky and too much recoil. Better to have a fast handling 20 ga. with slugs.

I've posted this before, but it seems relevant here.

Recently I tested some Federal 10 ga 00 buckshot loads. During that testing I hit my patterning frame which was made of 3x1.5 inch studs. About half the pellets that hit the studs failed to penetrate 1.5 inches of wood at 25 yards. Now this was plain lead buckshot, and not the hard plated kind, but I wasn't impressed by the experience.

I don't know much about leopards, but I certainly wouldn't trust the penetration of buckshot on anything remotely hard.

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
I've posted this before, but it seems relevant here.

Recently I tested some Federal 10 ga 00 buckshot loads. During that testing I hit my patterning frame which was made of 3x1.5 inch studs. About half the pellets that hit the studs failed to penetrate 1.5 inches of wood at 25 yards. Now this was plain lead buckshot, and not the hard plated kind, but I wasn't impressed by the experience.

I don't know much about leopards, but I certainly wouldn't trust the penetration of buckshot on anything remotely hard.

This is a useful note.

How big was the pattern at 25yds?

i have no experience but cats are damn fast...damn fast! in a close charge you will be lucky to get off one good shot. if you are an instinctive shot with the 45-70 that would be my choice not based on the cal so much but familiarity and confidence. the 45-70 guide can be a potent close range cat thumper. you will need a quick cns shot or a huge damaging big bore...the guide gun will split the diff imho

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
i have no experience but cats are damn fast...damn fast! in a close charge you will be lucky to get off one good shot. if you are an instinctive shot with the 45-70 that would be my choice not based on the cal so much but familiarity and confidence. the 45-70 guide can be a potent close range cat thumper. you will need a quick cns shot or a huge damaging big bore...the guide gun will split the diff imho

The above is the first sensable suggestion for a 45-70 Guide gun's use in Africa, I've ever read! The 45-70 with good hot handloads, is perfect for close in use on cats. The thing that makes the guide gun useful is it's shortness that allows quick handleing, and instinctive pointing. The lever part of it is irrelevent, because there isn't enough time to operate the lever and get off another shot, anyway with anything that must be manipulated before fireing the second shot. This is the domain of the double rifle, or a simi-auto, in this case, regardless of chambering!

The 45-70 in a well ballanced short barreled double rifle would be fine for follow-up on cats, if proper loads, with proper bullets are used. Buffalo, and up, leave it in camp!

I used an IC and a Patternmaster choke tube. The patterns were very different. The IC tube gave a symmetrical round pattern that was about 2 or 2.5 feet. The Patternmaster gave a 1.5 x 2.5 shaped pattern that was at and above point of aim; the 2.5 was along the horizontal axis.

I had heard people talk about shooting at 80 yards with the Patternmaster; maybe in other guns, but not mine. Still, it gave a good pattern at about 50-55 yards with T steel shot. I didn't pattern the buckshot any further out than 25 yards.

[/QUOTE]

The 45-70 in a well ballanced short barreled double rifle would be fine for follow-up on cats, if proper loads, with proper bullets are used. Buffalo, and up, leave it in camp! [/QUOTE]

Does any double manufacturer make 45-70 double???? Anyone ever have an extra set of barrels chambered for the 45-70??

Baikal make a 45-70 double

12 guage O/U or S/S with No.1 Buckshot.

Double shotty to be equipped with mechanical sears.

thanks macD37

Damn!!!!!
I started this thread in the hopes of getting info on what my rifle choice should be.

So far this is what I have learned:
1 -my 470NE is fine (for some) with soft bullet choice
2- I should leave the 470N.E. home something smaller w/ less recoil
3 -I need to buy a drilling!!!!

4 -I need to take my 12 gauge shotgun! loaded OO
5 -I need to forget the 12 gauge and buy a 10 gauge
5-My 45-70 is PERFECT!! except it's not a double :cool


Seriously, thanks for everyones opion! All are good comments --now I have an excuse to buy more guns!!

Very good summary quickshot

Try this question in a Poll format.

I had a PH that used a 10ga often , but after using it on a charging Lioness he now prefers a Rifle.
ozhunter

A 300wm or something close to it,in a win mod 70 crf rifle or something close to it,with a barrel free of copper fouling and throat erosion and a good high power accurate load with a quality bullet.Hold on tightly to your rifle and don't shoot unless you have the forehead in the crosshairs.If you do you might be a goner.Also,if my first shot didn't drop him for whatever reason, I would follow up quickly with a head shot.As for double barrel rifles or shotguns,I would not trust them for DG because of the problems I have experienced with 3 different double shotguns hunting small game.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
The one leopard I shot went down without much drama. The only story I can otherwise relate is second hand but I know three of the four people involved very well (and have met the fourth person). A PH who is a good friend of mine (and will be at my house in a couple weeks) lost 1/2 of his leg in a leopard encounter. It was wounded the afternoon before. Four went out with some dogs the next day to follow up. They paired up and split up by about 75 yards. Leopard encountered at close range and started running at less than 10 meters but wasn't immediately coming at him. PH put a bullet in it but not a telling shot. It immediately changed direction and was upon him, now with two bullet holes in it. As the PH fought with the leopard in a standing clinch manner the other person with him shot and the bullet apparently passed through a non-vital part of the leopard and struck him in the lower leg. The leopard was hurt and attempted to get away as the other pair heard the commotion and came running along with more dogs. Leopard was losing steam and the dogs were quickly on it. A lad with a shotgun/buckshot finished off the leopard less than 30 meters away.

No real point to make here other than it all happened real, real fast and you better make your shots count regardless of the caliber or gauge.

Sounds to me like you need to worry as much about getting shot as you do about getting chewed on.

If the leopard is on someone and you are 50yds away then how are you going to save him with a shotgun? A single round with a scoped rifle can easily break the spine and put an end to the attack.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If the leopard is on someone and you are 50yds away then how are you going to save him with a shotgun? A single round with a scoped rifle can easily break the spine and put an end to the attack.

Shootaway,

Which spine? There'll be at least two in front of you when you start blazing away with your .300...and neither of them will be sitting still.

After reading your last two posts I started to pen a truly witty, sardonic reply...and then I remembered something very profound that I read recently. The quote was something to the effect that "arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics...even if you win, you're still retarded".

So, taking that sage advice to heart, I'll simply wish you the best of luck in the future and pray nightly that some young PH doesn't have to face the prospect of you making him a paraplegic.

con Cuidado,

Mark

If you practice regularly shooting offhand and you know that your bullet can hit a quarter easily at 100yds,then you can take out a leopard at 50yds really fast.Before I stopped shooting 3yrs ago I was able to shoot a cd offhand out to 400yds.I worked within a couple miles from a 600yd+ shooting range and would go by there often during work breaks with my 308.If my barrel went 4000rds then all those rds were shot offhand,and I went through 3 barrels. New regulations set in and we can no longer shoot offhand at the range.

My police pal in namibia is always being called by farmers who have wounded a leopard and "are to busy to go look for it" He used to use a .338 and a .375 and he differs some here in saying a shot into them slowed them just enough to get another shot off. He now uses a 45/70 I got him and hot handloads.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If you practice regularly shooting offhand and you know that your bullet can hit a quarter easily at 100yds,then you can take out a leopard at 50yds really fast.Before I stopped shooting 3yrs ago I was able to shoot a cd offhand out to 400yds.I worked within a couple miles from a 600yd+ shooting range and would go by there often during work breaks with my 308.If my barrel went 4000rds then all those rds were shot offhand,and I went through 3 barrels. New regulations set in and we can no longer shoot offhand at the range.

That is certainly some outstanding shooting ability! With talent like that I expect your local silhuetas metallicas have become extinct!

Have you ever considered applying for an instructor's position at Rifa? I'm sure that the young learner PH's could learn a lot from you.

Good luck,

Mark

I will start by saying that as a police sniper and lifelong hunter/shooter, I have seen some pretty amazing shooting over the years. Are you stating that you can hit a quarter, offhand, at 100 yards....AND a CD offhand at 400 yards??? Am I correct?? If so, can you do this every time or at least consistantly???? If you can, then you are the worlds best shooter, as I have never seen anything like that before!!
Can anyone else believe this, or is it just me?

Wolfgar, the poster in question is more full of shit than a latrine.

Most of us, including me, have him on permanent ignore, but given the turn this thread has taken, I temporarily took him off, just for a laugh.

What a buffoon!

I should add that I normally don't comment on these kinds of things. Otherwise, like ForrestB, I would have a million posts.

But this is just too ridiculous to pass up.

It's not that hard to do Wolfgar.I would hit it almost every time once I got warmed up at 200yds.I was told by the shooting range owner the last time I saw him that" most people have difficulty in getting a good group at 300 and you could group the size of a fist standing up".If you practice holding your rifle everyday the muscles responsible for performing that task become hard as steel.It's like shaking hands or giving something to the hand of someone who puts on horsehoes for a living.He's got a really solid arm when he sticks his hand out.

Shootaway,
Some of your interior decorating comments on the trophy rooms forum are fun to read.

In a discussion like this one, I hope and pray no one takes you seriously. Someone could get hurt. You should take a lot more responsibility for your comments.

Something with a short barrel, good penetration, and two shots. On the followup of my leopard (15 minutes after the shot to allow for a little more light), he was dead, but the tracker didn't see him until he was within two feet of the carcase!