I am booking a hunt for leopard with dogs. I will be taking my 300winmag which will be great if the cat trees. But if I am faced with the cat in the grass/brush, what does everyone suggest I take for that possibility?
I have a 470N.E. but is this to much? What bullet?

I also own a 45-70 guide leveraction-- fast to shoot and fun too!!
suggestions please!
thanks for your help

I like the 470 if you can shoot it very quick...

The 45/70 with a 350gr bullet will thump a leopard up close...I would look into getting a larger extractor for a positive removal of spent shell...You can have the tracker carry 300 and you carry the 45/70 or other way arround...


Mike
Mike

Take your time and make the first shot count. After that the shit hits the fan and you want the gun you are most comfortable with and this should be the gun you messed up to begin. I am not trying to be smart. Just saying the best gun you can have is something your comfortable with and that may be a 30-06 which will do Leopard. Buy Boddingtons DVD on Leopard, and see what Craig and Andrew have to say. I don't want to disagree with my friend Mike, but I am a strong believer in one gun. Just don't want to be thinking which gun just have the gun you are copmfortable with and can shoot like it is an extension of your arm like your finger.

quote:

what does everyone suggest I take for that possibility?

Take an experienced PH!

If you are not a "close work" expert with a rifle I would want a short barrel, full choke 12 gauge shotgun and 00 Buck.

Don't worry about it. It is highly unlikely your PH will let you go with him if this is your first hunt together. Most PHs are more concerned with getting shot than getting chewed up by the cat. If you are really convinced you need to prepare for this possibility, take a rifle with removable scope mounts and iron sights. Take off the scope and use the rifle with iron sights.

Since I ain't ever gonna find myself in such a situation, my opinion don't amount too much. I am going to submit it anyway, I think I would want a pump shotgun, unplugged and stuffed full of as many 00 Buckshot loads as it would hold. Having never faced down a wounded leopard, and not knowing what you experience level is in such matters, that to be faced with a 150 to 200 pound cat streaking at me with vengenance in his mind, having 4 or 5 rounds of 00 Buck hitting it in the face and chest as fast as I could work that slide, might make some small difference as to full my drawers got before the thing went down or veered off. I feel that with the shotgun you are not going to have to be shooting quite as precisely as you would with a rifle. JMHO.

Calibre doesn't really matter much - anything over about a .30 cal will do. Open sights with a big bead foresight, short barrel(s) for fast handling and a good quality fast expanding bullet.

From my personal experience, shotguns are a complete waste of time in these situations.

great comments! thanks
nice cat--looks like you gave him an extra nostril
I am comfortable with open sights as well as scopes.
I shoot lever actions- 45-70, 243 etc.
Love my 470 searcy underlever too.
Do you think the 470 might do to much damage?? I realize if the cat charges---the damage consideration goes out the window. Better to blow him over than get chewed up!

as stated above, I think it is a small chance that the PH will let me get between the cat and him-- rather the PH will more likely be charged than the client. But I was wondering as to what everyones thoughts would be on the matter --thanks again

The third nostril was caused by the rifle above and is .500 Jeffery sized. - It didn't do any damage the taxidermist couldn't put right - so your 470 should do just fine as long as you can shoot it accurately and quickly........

Mr Spots will usually try to get in among the crowd when he's pissed off and once there will spread the damage out as much as he can. He'll beat up as many people as possible and then try to bug out........ Don't expect him to target one person and try to kill him as a Lion would....

We have a 12 ga 3" Benelli auto w 24" barrel and 000 buckshot dedicated to the off hand posiblilty of finishing a wounded leopard. 000ughta work on an unwounded t000 if he's pissed and trying to prove it.
Rich Elliott

quote:

From my personal experience, shotguns are a complete waste of time in these situations.

Please elaborate on this if you do not mind. I value your experience, as I have no experience with charging leopards.

I would think most failures with this would be do to shooting too soon. It is hard for me to imagine any animal in the 100 to 150 pound range being able to take a load of 00 buck at say, ten yards.

I can remember reading J. Burger describing buckshot as the ideal when stopping a close lion charge. He stated that one had to have the nerve to wait until the last possible moment.

Personally, it would "seem easier" to get 12-15 00 pellets into a pie plate (leopards head) at ten yards than it would to get a rifle bullet in the brain.

What am I missing here?

All those that have stopped a leopard charge, a real one, please raise their hand!

First off, the pattern in a load of buck shot from a full choke 12ga is about two inches accross, at 15 feet, and is no better that a well sighted rifle! Addtionally, leopard rarely charge from more than 30 feet, and more often from under 15 feet!

Habitually, leopard charge from exteremly close range, and without warning. They are fast, and come in low, and are hard as hell to hit! IMO, with Leopard, your chances of getting off more than one shot, with anything other than a double rifle, or double shotgun is almost nil! My choice would be a good S/S double rifle chambered for a 9.3X74R, or 375H&H flanged, an nothing larger that a 450NE, with Woodliegh softs! A 450/400NE 3" would be about middle ground here! Low recoil, and fast recovery time!

The fact is, once wounded, an leopard is the most likely animal in the world to bite one, or more of the party, before he is sorted out, and of the number of people bitten by them, a very large percentage of them were useing shotguns!

One doesn't have to step in fire to know how to avoid being burned, what one does need to know is how fast a leopard is, and how well he can shoot his rifle, and his own temprament in a crisis!

A Holland 12 bore Paradox. But mind you, I have never yet set foot in Africa (will in May) so I am totally full of bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
My choice would be a good S/S double rifle chambered for a 9.3X74R, or 375H&H flanged, an nothing larger that a 450NE, with Woodliegh softs! A 450/400NE 3" would be about middle ground here!

MacD37:
would you consider lighter load/bullet for the 470? what bullet & velocity would you consider ideal?
thanks
P.S. you comments gives my another excuse to buy another double!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
so I am totally full of bullshit.

Bill, being full of bullshit is what makes human!!
who here isn't full of it
your comment cracked me up!

quote:

the pattern in a load of buck shot from a full choke 12ga is about two inches accross, at 15 feet

Perhaps. . but a pattern diameter of two inches is better than the diameter of a bullet! To me this would translate to more chance for error with the bullet.

Again, I have no experience in this at all. but it is interesting to me. I only know that I think I would feel less uncomfortable with a shotgun. I also think I would choose the unplugged Benneli over a double.

I have killed a lot more animals with buck shot than rifles so I am very comfortable with it.

The best combination I can think of for a wounded leopard involves a shark cage on wheels.

You should watch the Boddington on Leopard video. This topic is discussed with the Chafuti Safari guide. He felt that his double rifle was best, because he was familiar with it and would not mess up. He said the pattern on a shotgun was not much larger at charge ranges than a rifle, and so accuracy of the shotgun was not a factor. The PH I was with in Zimbabwe for Leopard last year used a semi-auto shotgun with 00 buck. I thought it was probably the best choice. He used the same gun when following bushbuck, which can be quite agressive when wounded.

The one leopard I shot went down without much drama. The only story I can otherwise relate is second hand but I know three of the four people involved very well (and have met the fourth person). A PH who is a good friend of mine (and will be at my house in a couple weeks) lost 1/2 of his leg in a leopard encounter. It was wounded the afternoon before. Four went out with some dogs the next day to follow up. They paired up and split up by about 75 yards. Leopard encountered at close range and started running at less than 10 meters but wasn't immediately coming at him. PH put a bullet in it but not a telling shot. It immediately changed direction and was upon him, now with two bullet holes in it. As the PH fought with the leopard in a standing clinch manner the other person with him shot and the bullet apparently passed through a non-vital part of the leopard and struck him in the lower leg. The leopard was hurt and attempted to get away as the other pair heard the commotion and came running along with more dogs. Leopard was losing steam and the dogs were quickly on it. A lad with a shotgun/buckshot finished off the leopard less than 30 meters away.

No real point to make here other than it all happened real, real fast and you better make your shots count regardless of the caliber or gauge.

Have seen several Leopard killed but have personally only shot 2 so don't class as an expert by any means. I am most comfortable with my Brno 602 375H&H with a 21" Bbl. Factory rear sight and Flourescent front on A NECG Ramp. Quick,handy and I am very familiar with it. I have never been unlucky enough to have one charge. The one shot out of a tree in daylight was dead when it hit the ground and the one shot at night from blind ran other way and died.The PH I hunt with in Zimbabwe has sucessfully hunted Leopard for the last 10+ years both from blinds and with hounds and he carries a 12ga Beretta Auto with 20"Bbl and loaded with 3" 'OO' as a backup. Saw a video while over there once that had quite a few of the top Leopard hunters featured and they were considering the suitability of shotguns as backup for charging Leopard. The concensus was a good rifle is better. If I remember correctly the leading hunter was Lou Hallamore. It was a good video.

Beretta a390,00 heavy magnums .I use shotguns daily and i found the a390 very dependable.Juan

Lou Hallamore states in his book, "In the Salt", that is preferred weapon is a 12 ga shotgun loaded with buckshot. He also carries a .44 mag pistol as well.

If I had my druthers I would use a Ma Duece!

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
My choice would be a good S/S double rifle chambered for a 9.3X74R, or 375H&H flanged, an nothing larger that a 450NE, with Woodliegh softs! A 450/400NE 3" would be about middle ground here!

MacD37:
would you consider lighter load/bullet for the 470? what bullet & velocity would you consider ideal?
thanks
P.S. you comments gives my another excuse to buy another double!

I'd use the rifle/load that I shoot the best!

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
The concensus was a good rifle is better. If I remember correctly the leading hunter was Lou Hallamore. It was a good video.

quote:

Lou Hallamore states in his book, "In the Salt", that is preferred weapon is a 12 ga shotgun loaded with buckshot. He also carries a .44 mag pistol as well.

As I said above, use what ever is best suited to your handleing of such things! There are no rules that say you must use a rifle over a shotgun, or vice-versa. Personally Ive seen too many 70 pound whitetails run 300 yds after being hit in the boiler room with buckshot, and I have no trust for shotguns with anything less than a Breneke slug, on big game, especially if it bites back.

This, gentlemen, is only one man's opinion, and is worth exactly the price you paid for it, not tablets of stone!

Ridge Taylor told me that a shot gun did not penetrate enough. He was attackcd twice on the same follow up on a wounded leopard and said he wouldn't use a shotgun again. With that in mind, I would say use what ever you shot him with the first time, as long as it is fast handling!

Never shot a leopard but,

I've shot enough animals with my shotgun that have gone further after solid hits (with 3 1/2" 12ga 00) than I would ever want a leopard to go, to even consider it.

I will bow to those with the rifle wisdom. I believe they're giving good advice.

I'm definitely not an expert on this subject, but I would think the .470 with the softest bullet you can find would be perfect.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grafton:
Please elaborate on this if you do not mind. /QUOTE]

I can give you an example that happened to me a couple of years ago.- (I've posted the pic before but I hope no-one will mind looking again) I was up in Tanzania hunting a client on a 21 day safari and had one of the PHs who works for us in Botswana along to see how our operation works up there. We ended up with a wounded Leopard and the other PH & I did the (night-time) follow up together. To cut a long story short, I was using my .500 and he was using a 12 gauge shotgun. (can't remember the shot size but it was bloody big). The Leopard charged from thick cover and we both shot together, dropping the cat at six or seven yards. (see pic) On later examination, my bullet had entered the face and exited the opposite haunch. The shotgun pellets had penetrated the skin and dented the skull - but not penetrated. The shot had also broken the cats jaw on both sides, so it was a full in the face shot and that disability would have slowed the cat down had he gotten to us..... but the point is, it hadn't penetrated the skull and therefore wouldn't have killed the cat.

In the pic below, I'm kneeling where the cat fell and the photo was taken from where we shot.



I don't care what anyone else uses - but personally, I'll stick to my good old .500.

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
If I had my druthers I would use a Ma Duece!

I think any caliber would do as long as I was standing behind Shakari. Then all I'd really need is a change of shorts.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Habitually, leopard charge from exteremly close range, and without warning. They are fast, and come in low.
My choice would be a good S/S double rifle chambered for a 9.3X74R, or 375H&H flanged, an nothing larger that a 450NE, with Woodliegh softs! A 450/400NE 3" would be about middle ground here! Low recoil, and fast recovery time!

ozhunter

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:
I am booking a hunt for leopard with dogs. I will be taking my 300winmag which will be great if the cat trees. But if I am faced with the cat in the grass/brush, what does everyone suggest I take for that possibility?
I have a 470N.E. but is this to much? What bullet?

I also own a 45-70 guide leveraction-- fast to shoot and fun too!!
suggestions please!
thanks for your help

quicksot.

One thing to keep in mind when hunting with dogs is that you may receive a charge from an unwounded but very frustrated and pissed off Leopard.

In this case it doesn't matter what is best but what you have handy.

A rifle with a scope will let you pick out a Leopard in the bush easier than one without.

A rifle will also allow a shot from a longer distance than open sites or shotguns. Similiar to following up a wounded Bear, Buff or Lion.

A rifle with a scope is not as good a close range.

A Leopards skull can deflect pellets. You need a body shot with a shotgun.

Don't fixate on having to deal with a wounded anything. Just shoot right the first time.

Don't forget your Linoleum suit.

I'd go with Rich Elliott's choice. Benelli auto twelve with 000 or 00 buckshot.

Just keep pulling the trigger until the action stops.

A Tanz PH told me that he really regretted taking Robin Hurt's advice and using a rifle on a wounded leopard follow up.

I also saw the wicked scars that caused those regrets.

I'm certainly not criticising Rich's opinion - but from my experience, there's no time to keep pulling the trigger until the action stops - there's time for one shot and one shot only before the cat's in amongst you - It's obviously preferable to get the first shot right, then there's no need to deal with a wounded pussycat at all - but if you have to go look for him in the thick stuff, then you only have one chance to kill it........

Before I go sit in the blind with a client, I always recreate the exact shot scenario elsewhere. He shoots the rifle from a chair using rests, at a target that's the exact range and height etc as the real shot will happen. - But I was taught to be cautious........

At the end of the day, its the client's Leopard hunt and he can hunt it anyway he wants to as long as it's legal...........

Quickshot,
I would not choose a shotgun for the hunt you're talking about because I think a rifle is a better choice in this situation. Having said that I can't believe ashotgun with double-ought-buck-shot wouldn't stop a leopard at close range.

quote:

Originally posted by Grafton:
I would think most failures with this would be do to shooting too soon. It is hard for me to imagine any animal in the 100 to 150 pound range being able to take a load of 00 buck at say, ten yards.

Thats a good point and I think the vital key here that some keep overlooking. I once killed a White-tail as I kneeled behind a scaly-bark oak from a distance about one and half the length of the shotgun I sealed his fate with, I promise you he died at my feet.

Oh, and to the guy pimping the africas dangerous game book, notice my hand is not raised.

JMHO, having never leopard hunted. Take the guide gun, its short, light, extremely handy in tight quarters. Put a mag tube extension on it, so you got 7 shots. Add an XS ghost ring sight setup. I know leopards are extremely dangerous, but the are a 150-200 lb. critter. The .45-70 will take him out nicely. Forget hardcast, take a premium load like the new cor-bon DPX, with the barnes bullet, 350 gr. woodleigh, or nosler partition gold. It'll git r done.

Mad Dog

Actually, that Benelli 12 ga auto is Jason Roussos' idea. I suspect some input from Simon Evan's was taken in account. The only wounded leopard I've ever been involved in was with Greg Michelson in SW Zimbabawe. I had shot the leopard at 150 yards in late afternoon the first day of the safari. Definitely a target of opportunity. Neither Greg nor I had our shotguns as we had only gone out to hang bait that day. He had an F.A.L.(w/solids no less!) and I had my .30-06 Remington. I stayed on his left while he looked for the world like a commando on a mop up operation, his FN semi auto constantly mounted covering the grass ahead. The cat made it about 200 yards and fortunately, we found it dead. The 180 grain Nosler had taken out both lungs.
Rich Elliott

9,3x74R Chapuis double rifle, scope in QD mounts, or my 450/400 3 1/4", with scope in QD mounts.

Depending on the hunting conditions, amount of cover etc., I would have the scope either on the rifle or of the rifle, but in my back pocket.

Shoot straight the first time and forget worrying about the charge. Your Q is akin to - like worrying about finding a good divorce attorney while making preparations to get married.