My PH shot a buffalo in Zim and it ran off taking a lengthy chase by us and many shots to finally anchor. This PROVES a bigger rifle than the .458 Lott he used would be desirable.

His first shot was while the buffalo was running but was perfectly placed, one third up the left rear leg.

He should have used the liver shot which I often use on plains game.

I never noticed the size of the hole in the brain or the heart for that matter made a hell of a lot of difference..Shot placement and proper bullet construction is the key to success on dangerous game or mice...

I have seen two buffalo take more than a dozen good hits with a 500 N.E. and another with a .470 and 500, I think they just got weighted down..I have seen one bull take 9 shots with a .375 H&H..If that first shot is off, then the adrenaline kicks in and only a brain or spine shot kills them well...I have seen bulls killed instantly with the .470, 500 and .375 btw, so there ya go.

This caliber stuff is up for grabs and works in strange ways...but hey it makes for exhilerating conversation. But having discussed it for the last 60 years it gets a little ho hum!

Id hunt buffalo with a 30-30 if its all I had, but until then I will continue to use the 9.3x62, .375, 416s or 450-400s I suppose. These about peek my recoil tolerance and give me absolutly no problem, but larger calibers make me think "recoil never killed anyone, so squeeze the trigger." and thats not what I need to think about....

Do not walk up on a downed buff from the head on side. Who doesn't know that?

Walk up from behind and put one in his spine as soon as it can be done.

I read this article and with all due respect blaming the rifle is nonsense.

What Mrlexma said is an absolute to longgivity.

This reminds me very much of a taste test 20-20 did on Vodka. They took 10 or so self proclaimed vodka snobs and did a blind taste test. NONE of the could pick "their" brand. Smirnoff came in first, Grey Goose in last. All could recite statictics and filtration processes on why one or the other was better but NONE could taste those statistics.

Same thing with these calibers. None of you can watch a hit on film and tell me what the caliber was by the hit and the animals reaction. I have seen videos of elephants and buff go down on one shot or take many from all the calibers mentioned. If 470 was obviously so much better then 375 you could tell from the animals reaction to the shot, but you can't. Almost every charge without exception is because of a poorly placed first shot regardless of caliber.

In Boddingtons Safari rifle book PH's overwhelmingly suggest clients shoot the .375 In their experience that is the most gun their clients can shoot reliably in the field.

Now lets think about that in the field part for a second. Sure you might be great with your .470 at the range but let's face it, most hunters that go to Africa are north of 50 years of age. Also, as has been discussed here lately, being out of shape is a concern for many in this age group. I have no doubt that there are quite a few clients in Africa that can barely stand up straight and not be out of breath after a 5-10 mile trek after dangerous game matter less shoot like they do at the range at home.

Very good point. I trained for months prior to my last hunt, carrying my rifle and gear. Not everyone has a place to do that. I'm lucky that I have a friend who has 500 acres of wild property with puma, bear and whitetail on it. I still had trouble keeping up with that younger PH. Had to ask him to slow down.

I'll stick with the .375 bcause I have the utmost confidence in my ability to shoot it under challenging conditions, and I don't want to have to be thinking about what Ray mentioned, about anticipating the recoil instead of shot placement.

Going back in '09 and I'll hunt it again. May have to rebarrel it, though, because I'll put another thousand rounds through it before then.

I think that once a buffalo has been wounded, it's adrenaline goes into over-ride, and they produce it by the bucket-full once injured! This is why they are so hard to kill compared to most other animals, and is why you hear of people putting up to a dozen or so rounds into one from time to time if the first shot has been less than perfect!

I would think that the .375 is still probably responsible for taking more buffalo than any other callibre, as it is probably the most common rifle used by most on a general safari. As for PH's, I am sure there are at least a hand-full that have used it or at least started out with it before moving on to something bigger. I have heard of it having not all that much effect on buffalo charges, even on head-shots that just missed the brain! However, it (and the .458 win) were probably the most common callibres used by rangers in the Kruger for wounded or problem animals and when elephant culling operations were still going on! In fact, I think some of the Kruger rangers in the choppers used 7.62 R1 rifles (FN-FAL) too. I do not know what most of the Tsetse fly control officers used in Zim to shoot their buff, but they probably used a mixed bag of rifles with most likely the odd .375 or 9.3 thrown in. I am sure Ganyana would be able to say what the most used callibres were. I know that for ellie-culling, people sometimes used callibres less than what would be considered ideal, for example the 30-06 and 7.62, which I believe were used quite a bit on elephant culls in Zim, although most of these animals were likely immature cows and calves.

Culling situations and facing charges are probably two different kettles of fish, but I am sure that guys had to deal with the odd charge, especially if the animals were directed towards culling operators on the ground by choppers. My point is, some of the time these guys would have been under some pressure to do some fancy shooting and many of them were using less than what can be considered as cannons. So ultimately, shot placement would seem to be the critical factor here. However, as a hunter, one can never be guaranteed under what conditions you may have to shoot, and with sodd's law thrown in, you might not always be able to hit the brain or spine of a charging beast, which I think is why most PH's carry something bigger than .375, but this callibre has saved the lives of one or two rangers in the past and maybe the odd PH too! So shooting straight would ultimately do you good provided you can do it under less than ideal conditions and under extreme pressure, but your margin for error is probably much larger than if you had a rifle with more stopping power, provided you can shoot it just as accurately. At least that is what I would think.

quote:

Originally posted by larbo:
Hi Blair
Think it was 99, One of the guys I was with used a 375H&H with solids and shot each Buff four times, the other a 458 again with solids, shot one with it 3 shots and one long chase. He then shot his second with my 338, it ran 50 yards and went down he then used a solid I had in the mag to finish it off.
Have seen 4 buff shot with 300 mags on another trip using heavy X bullets and they worked well.

That is afair comment but lets compaire where these buffs was shot (apples with apples)

the best gun to use in that situation is the one youve got in your hands its the jockey behind the gun that makes the difference.

in the old days many lions was shot with 22long at night because it was the closest to the bed and the first one taken when the farmers heard something outside.

as WE SAY IN SPAIN "IT IS NOT THE ARROW IT´S THE INDIAN"

I'll just say, The only one shot kills I have on Cape buffalo, were with a 375 H&H useing, of all things 300 gr Nosler Partitions! All others took, at least. 3 shots, and some quit a few more, regardless of caliber, or bullet type!

You make your own mind up on this one! I find the 375 H&H to be just fine as a buffalo chambering!

quote:

Why one would not put in an insurance shot is beyond me.. From experience, my two buf I thumped after they were on the ground and my big ele bull I ran up to him and shot him 4 more times as he lay there still breathing...

Mike

Mike,

That's the one thing I found peculiar about the article, too. Having never hunted buffalo, I'd just assumed it was standard practice to plant another "for sure" shot into a downed bull to avoid such situations. Actually, I'd probably be inclined to do that to all DG, simply because I'm not really in the mood to get trampled, gored, bitten, etc.

If another shot had been placed into the buffalo, the PH may not have had to face such a harrowing experience. I certainly wouldn't blame the caliber for the incident.

......This is why I will stick firmly to my guns ,[ pun intended] about big , fast ,monometal expanding bullets ..............seems like the 470 Mbogo on down take 2-3 shots to get a Cape Buffalo off its feet .........And no one has reported back that they body slammed one yet , [ that I have seen ]...If a 375 with a 300 gr Nosler @2530 fps mv will reliably kill a c buff then a 416 or 458 w/300 gr X bullet @2700 fps mv will do so better ......

quote:

..............seems like the 470 Mbogo on down take 2-3 shots to get a Cape Buffalo off its feet .........And no one has reported back that they body slammed one yet , [ that I have seen ]...

My first buff was body slammed. 1/4ing-to shot, junction of neck and shoulder....dropped in its trax. 470 Mbogo, 500gr Swift A-frames.

Cheers,
Canuck

ps: my second buff dropped with one shot, but ran 50m first. My third buff would have been done with the first shot, but I was quick enough to get another into it before it went down. All three shot with 470 Mbogo.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:

quote:

Why one would not put in an insurance shot is beyond me.. From experience, my two buf I thumped after they were on the ground and my big ele bull I ran up to him and shot him 4 more times as he lay there still breathing...

Mike

Mike,

That's the one thing I found peculiar about the article, too. Having never hunted buffalo, I'd just assumed it was standard practice to plant another "for sure" shot into a downed bull to avoid such situations. Actually, I'd probably be inclined to do that to all DG, simply because I'm not really in the mood to get trampled, gored, bitten, etc.

If another shot had been placed into the buffalo, the PH may not have had to face such a harrowing experience. I certainly wouldn't blame the caliber for the incident.

You can tell when buff or elephant are dead. Not sure what the point is in filling up a corpse with lead!

quote:

Yes, give the client the first shot if at all possible in a charge, (assuming there is time, normally not) then add lead till its dead!!!

Well said Karl!
LDK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
....

You can tell when buff or elephant are dead. Not sure what the point is in filling up a corpse with lead!

Not every time. Even if a body has an EKG monitor, you can't always tell withing 60 seconds or so.

I think the 45-70 with modern bullets and a little speed would be ideal!

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

..............seems like the 470 Mbogo on down take 2-3 shots to get a Cape Buffalo off its feet .........And no one has reported back that they body slammed one yet , [ that I have seen ]...

My first buff was body slammed. 1/4ing-to shot, junction of neck and shoulder....dropped in its trax. 470 Mbogo, 500gr Swift A-frames.

Cheers,
Canuck

ps: my second buff dropped with one shot, but ran 50m first. My third buff would have been done with the first shot, but I was quick enough to get another into it before it went down. All three shot with 470 Mbogo.

....................................Well I stand corrected....And well so.........But I,m still stickin to my guns ...................

It would seem to be that many people have shot buffalo with a scoped .375 and for many it would also appear to be their favourite callibre for the job, so there is probably nothing more to be said as to whether it is adequate or not.

As for a wounded, charging animal, well then, that could be different topic all together, but at the end of the day if you shoot straight there would be nothing to worry about.

I would think that with a good heart shot at a buffalo using a quality soft-point/Barnes-X, the animal would be 'dead on it's feet' so to speak. It may well run off, and you may put another couple of rounds into it on the way, and I myself would carry on shooting as long as the animal was on it's feet as long as I had a clear shot at it. I think that Saeed has the right idea and experience here and I really don't think it matters much whether as a hunter you shoot it with a .375 or a .600 OK, as long as it is in the right place, the out-come will be the same at the end of the day! However, for facing a charge, I think a .600 OK would not be a bad idea by any means!

I agree 100% with the PH . . . so send me all of those useless .375's and I will dispose of them for you. Always willing to do a favor for a fellow AR member.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
If a 375 with a 300 gr Nosler @2530 fps mv will reliably kill a c buff then a 416 or 458 w/300 gr X bullet @2700 fps mv will do so better ......

375 = dead
416 = little more dead
458 = very dead
700 nitro = mutilation of the corpse

i thought dead is dead

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:

quote:

Why one would not put in an insurance shot is beyond me.. From experience, my two buf I thumped after they were on the ground and my big ele bull I ran up to him and shot him 4 more times as he lay there still breathing...

Mike

Mike,

That's the one thing I found peculiar about the article, too. Having never hunted buffalo, I'd just assumed it was standard practice to plant another "for sure" shot into a downed bull to avoid such situations. Actually, I'd probably be inclined to do that to all DG, simply because I'm not really in the mood to get trampled, gored, bitten, etc.

If another shot had been placed into the buffalo, the PH may not have had to face such a harrowing experience. I certainly wouldn't blame the caliber for the incident.

You can tell when buff or elephant are dead.

Apparently not in this case!

Has anyone on AR ever hunted with the PH in the article? I have.

quote:

Originally posted by MSsafari:
Has anyone on AR ever hunted with the PH in the article? I have.

Anyone thinking of doing this had better book fast while this PH is still alive.

lol

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There has been many occasions, where a hunter was using a larger caliber than a 375, shot a charging buffalo somewhere but not the brain, and buffalo managed to get o him.

Now, can anyone give me ONE example of a charging buffalo being hit in the brain by a 375 and did not drop dead?

Let's not forget the occasions where a near miss to the head with a 375 did not stop or turn the elephant/buff (more so elephant), and something with more energy would have.

I think the discussion should be about near misses, and not well placed shots. It's been established here and elsewhere a 1000 times that any caliber can stop any animal with a direct shot to the CNS system.

Again, knock out power (using Taylor's vernacular) is handy on the near misses. On near misses, I'd take a 470 over a 375 under any circumstances.

That said, a 375 H&H is plenty of gun in my opinion for anything. However, I'm not a perfect shot, so bigger to a point is better in case of near misses.

All of this really only applies to a charge situation which ~99.9% of us, and other hunters, won't ever encounter.

I disagree that any caliber will turn an elephant unless the elephant WANTS to turn, and thats what happens when they do and it can happen with about any caliber..I don't believe in that knock out stuff, it the bullet scrapes the brain tissue it usually knocks him out or down, if not it won't do much...Most of this stuff is surmised and not autopsied, or just plain

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
If a 375 with a 300 gr Nosler @2530 fps mv will reliably kill a c buff then a 416 or 458 w/300 gr X bullet @2700 fps mv will do so better ......

375 = dead
416 = little more dead
458 = very dead
700 nitro = mutilation of the corpse

i thought dead is dead

.............................My ax I,m grinding is with so many people yakking like a bunch of baboons about [HEAVY FOR CALIBER BULLETS ] . ..........

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I disagree that any caliber will turn an elephant unless the elephant WANTS to turn, and thats what happens when they do and it can happen with about any caliber..I don't believe in that knock out stuff, it the bullet scrapes the brain tissue it usually knocks him out or down, if not it won't do much...Most of this stuff is surmised and not autopsied, or just plain

Ray,
I agree with you. I would like to know what Richard Harland has to say on this topic. Seems I read his book and he has some opinions as well. Hint - He likes the .458WM

You know, if we could just get a few pesky laws changed (and teams of decent gun bearers) we could have M2s and mini-guns as "stoppers"... Which are what I would want if I had to deal w. such a situation...

I`d never shot any DG, but I have a 375 H&H Mag.
This is a very good rifle and the recoil is not to hard, I built my rifle with a Pachmayer recoil pad and a higher sheek just for getting better contact with the rifle.

I can shoot and repeat with the rifle too the sheek this make me to a better shootist.

I wonder, those times I went too South Africa for Plain games hunt we go to the shootingrange for a 2- 4 shots at the target.
Why dosn`t the PH ensure that the client can handle the gun at the shootingrange by shooting as fast as he could on a similar target as a Attacking buff, and then count the hits, I think the PH will be more comfortable when he is sure that the client can handle the rifle and shoot.

I do practice as often I can in a similar targetshooting, and it`s realy fun even with the 375 or 416 caliber gun.

I`m planning a buffalohunt i the near future in that matter I`m building a new rifle from the bottom, this is a 458 Win Mag with the extras Acley Improved, the stock shall be a classic american straight stock, with only open sights, I built this on a M98 case, I`m also looking for a 450 Acley dieset. I will also put in a tungsten recoilmoderator, I was concidering a muzzelbreak, but it`s a terrible noice with it.

My Sako Finnbear 375 H&H Mag modified to fit me perfectly, I`v change the scope to a Schmidt und Bender Zenith 1,5-6X42 and a Zeiss 1,25-4x24


Fallowdeer shot with the 375H&H Mag loaded with Nosler accubond 260 grs shot at 150 Yards.


270 grs Rhino Bullet in 375 cal. picked it out from a waterbuck, Excellent expansion
This isn`t DG but it shows how the bullet works

I almost hesitate to add my own experience with a 375 H&H (to use its formal name)to the long list of real pros who have used the 375 against Cape buffalo. (It's kind of presumptuous) I shot my buff at less than 35 yards range. In the split second moment after I fired, I knew that he was dead on his feet. (Yeah, I saw it in the scope) How could, I,an absolute beginning hunter in Africa say such a thing? (I never had fired at a Cape buffalo in my life before) Because I knew the sign of a big four legged animal that has been hit hard. He staggered and almost sank to his knees before picking himself up again. (I admit that the buff astonished me by doing so since I had never before (in North America) seen an animal go almost to his knees and pick himself up as the buff did) I killed the buff with a 375 (using Federal factory loads, 300 gr. solid) (It does seem to me that a cartridge that has been around since 1912 in Africa has proven that it works) Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I disagree that any caliber will turn an elephant unless the elephant WANTS to turn, and thats what happens when they do and it can happen with about any caliber..I don't believe in that knock out stuff, it the bullet scrapes the brain tissue it usually knocks him out or down, if not it won't do much...Most of this stuff is surmised and not autopsied, or just plain

Yeah, I doubt Taylor knew what he was talking about.

So, would you feel as comfortable hunting, let's say tuskless cow ele, in the thick stuff with a 7 mm as you would with a 416?

You might be right, and Taylor, amongst many others, might be wrong, but I personally would feel a bit more comfortable with a 458 Lott than than a 7mm. I suppose that's why so many guides use 458's, 416, 470's, etc.

I have shot several tuskless cow elephants in thick bush with a 375.

All of them fell very dead as soon as they were shot.

A 700 NE might have made the earth shake a bit more, because of the additional 700 grains of additional weight added to the tons the elephent already had, as the elephant hit the ground

quote:

Reply

Ive shot everything with a 375 and only one time on a tuskless cow did I feel like I didnt have enough gun, following up a bad first shot, other than that, a dozen elephants and more buffalo etc. the 375 has been just fine

I completely agree that the 375 is sufficient for ele, or anything else for that matter. It just seems to me that heavier bullets with more energy would have more of an effect on an animal with any shot other than a shot to the cns system. A brain shot is a brain shot, but 5,500 flbs of energy to the face is more effective than 2,000 lbs of energy IMO. Is there any fault in this logic?

Again, I agree the 375 H&H is plenty of gun for cape buff, I just think that common sense/logic/physics/physiology would suggest that bigger guns do have more of an effect than smaller ones, assuming the exact same shot placement and conditions between the two (barring CNS shots). A bigger hole bleeds faster...

Which would slow you down faster? Getting hit in the face with a grape, or with a watermelon?

Maddenwh,
Your reply to me was a little extreme and out of context, how about comparing the .375 to the 450-400 or even the .416 Rem or perhaps the 458 Win., but not the 7x57, that's over the top.

Harry Manners and a few other well knowns thought Taylor was a little out in left field, so now we have famous elephant hunters on the opposite end of the stick. bottom line? opinnions vary. Harry wore out several .375s and Mark Selby uses the 450-400 and its not any better than a .375 in the real world..

I think when you get into the real big bores like the 500s the 577s and larger, then the difference is apparant to some degree, but hell only one person out of a million can shoot those big bores, well one in a million and everyond on AR!

quote:

Do not walk up on a downed buff from the head on side. Who doesn't know that?

Mark Sullivan.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Maddenwh,
Your reply to me was a little extreme and out of context, how about comparing the .375 to the 450-400 or even the .416 Rem or perhaps the 458 Win., but not the 7x57, that's over the top.

Harry Manners and a few other well knowns thought Taylor was a little out in left field, so now we have famous elephant hunters on the opposite end of the stick. bottom line? opinnions vary. Harry wore out several .375s and Mark Selby uses the 450-400 and its not any better than a .375 in the real world..

I think when you get into the real big bores like the 500s the 577s and larger, then the difference is apparant to some degree, but hell only one person out of a million can shoot those big bores, well one in a million and everyond on AR!

Ray- I agree with you that the 375 is plenty of club for anything. I just think that there is a difference in near missed shots between smaller and larger cals. Giving an extreme hypothetical just illustrates this point. I'm not advocating the use of bigger guns by any means.

My only point is that bigger, more powerful cals do have a better "stopping" or turning effect on DG than smaller cal rifles IMO (barring CNS shots).

I also agree that more elephant amd ca[pe buff have been shot with 375's, 404's etc. than 577's and 600. In fact, I'm in the process of trading in my 470 for a 450/400. I'm only saying that a near miss with a 600 will affect an ele more than a near miss with a 375.

CHeers