In the January/Febuary SCI Safari magazine there is an interesting article entitled Anatomy of an Attack. The article is about a hunt where the PH was severely injured by a wounded buffalo. There are some chilling pictures with the article.

Under Lessons I Have Learned the PH states: "I am also of the opinion (and have been for some time) that the .375 caliber with 300 grain bullets is totally inadequate for thick-skinned animals such as Cape Buffalo.......... A .416 caliber with 400 grain premium quality bullets should be the absolute minimum for thick-skinned dangerous game, but unfortunately the recoil from this weapon is intolerable to many".

The .375 was an H&H but neither the bullet used nor the placement of the wounding shot was identified. The PH did say that he fired no backup shots with his .505 Gibbs - firing only at the last second as the buffalo was upon him. He said the lack of backup was at the client's request and was a mistake.

I can certainly understand his feelings toward the .375 after going through this.

At Reno last year, I was complaining about the recoil of my .416 Rigby to some fellow novices and saying perhaps I should have gotten a .375. Surprisingly, two of them said they would have gotten a .416 instead of a .375 after seeing how difficult buffalo were to kill with the .375.

I have no experience with the .375 but always thought it was adequate based on what others said.

At least most of the pictures in the article were not of fat people.

oldcoyote, given proper shot placement and adequite bullets, there is nothing wrong with a .375 H&H, or a 9.3x62 for that matter.

I don't have a lot of experience hunting buffalo, but the two that I have killed were both with one shot from my .375 H & H.

There is no substitute for proper shot placement.

Hundreds of thousands of dead Cape buffalo prove otherwise.

George

Shhh !! Don't tell Saeed about that , he'll have to give back all those buffalos that he got with a .375 !!

.375 300grainer .416 400grainer
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.395 340grainer with best possible bullets ever made (GSC HV-soft and FN-solid) at any velocity from 2300 to 2800 fps ought to do it all. 12" TWIST.

yes and no - with proper hits the 375 does the job. IMO however it does lack the force to be a good stopper.

Having killed exactly one buffalo with my .375 and now owning a .416 Rigby that I don't flinch when I shoot it, but I sure shake my head a couple of times after the shot I say... the fat guys...ahem, gentlemen blessed with more meat on their bones than I probably shoot the .416 better and the runts, I mean the lean and mean guys probably are more confident with the .375.

I would never have the gaul to ask my PH to hold his fire.

'Hoping all the buffalo are fat.

I reckon Karl S got it right on this one. I'll add that the 375 H&H has probably killed more buffalo in Africa than all the others put together. - Use the right bullet and put it in the right place and it'll do the job. That said, within reason, bigger is better. - However, the 375H&H is nowhere near a charge stopper.

As to the recoil issue, this comes down to a lot more than just calibre. Stock design and rifle weight both play a large part in perceived recoil.....and it can further be reduced by fitting such things as muzzle breaks and mercury tube or tubgsten bead recoil arrestors.

In all the years I've been hunting Africa, I've never had a client forbid me to shoot under any circumstances........ but I wonder what the reaction would be with this kind of client, if the PH agreed and then, when the wounded Buff ran off into the thick stuff, the PH turned and said to the client, off you go then, the trackers & I will go back to the truck. As you don't want me to shoot under any circumstances, there's no point in my coming along on the follow up. - It's all yours. - I'd bet a pound to a pinch of the brown stuff, thay most of these bravado filled clients would rapidly change their minds........

300gr on the right place is better than 400gr at the wrong place.

in MS dvd Death at my feet the only one shot kill is with a scoped 375. all the other calibres took 3 or more shots.

The ph is the man in charge no sense in blaming the clients gun if things go wrong you shoot rather argue about it later than crying at the funeral things is not always like we plan it

The 375, with a 300 grain bullet of proper construction, will stop any buffalo, being hit in the right place.

Regardless of caliber, marginal hits, would leave a big question mark on what the outcome might be.

I bet elephants pay so much attention to 0.041" of an inch in bullet diameter

I have not read the article, but it seems it is one of those full of codswallop!

I have shot so many buffalo with the the 300 grain 375 bullet in the head, And even when the brain is not hit, the buffalo ALWAYS dropped to the ground!

No caliber is going to stop a charging animal, unless the central nervous system is hit.

It makes no difference how big the hole in the barrel is, or the size of the bullet.

I have taken somewhere around a dozen buff with the 375 H&H with no problems. But then I was never charged while carrying it. A couple of charges make any one question whether a bigger bullet would be in order, assuming that you can shoot it as well.

The PHs first responsibility is for the safety of the client and crew. In my humble opinion not shooting in a charge situation is gross negligence on the part of the PH and he should probably lose his license. Sure, give the client the chance to stop the charge himself but if the buff crosses the 5 meter line he be better be shooting.

465H&H

quote:

Sure, give the client the chance to stop the charge himself but if the buff crosses the 5 meter line he be better be shooting.

465H&H, you can bet I will not wait for 5 meters or less before I will start joining the festivities! Neither do I know of anyone still hunting professionally and alive that would be that stupid! Yes, give the client the first shot if at all possible in a charge, (assuming there is time, normally not) then add lead till its dead!!!

465 H&H
He DID shoot when the buffalo charged but not earlier.

I am loving reading the opinions of all the pros here.

when the Kruger park stil controled elephant populations with culling 95% was killed with a 375h&h and i have heard of some guys useing 3006 and 308 aswell. the culling was done on foot in daylight.

its not the gun but the jockey behind it

Of course the 375 is totally inadequate. That's why we all hunt with 2bores and 8bores, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

Sure, give the client the chance to stop the charge himself but if the buff crosses the 5 meter line he be better be shooting.

465H&H, you can bet I will not wait for 5 meters or less before I will start joining the festivities! Neither do I know of anyone still hunting professionally and alive that would be that stupid! Yes, give the client the first shot if at all possible in a charge, (assuming there is time, normally not) then add lead till its dead!!!

100% right Karl ive not heard of anybody that will complain if you do that rather safe than sorry . there is always exceptions and will probely get people that complain with shit running down their legs and argue why they should not pay but that is another issue

I've not seen the article but it sounds like a "plant" written by someone that wants all of us to:

1. Buy a larger weapon than we need
2. Allow him to fire back-up shots at will to ruin the hunt for the paying customer

As an outfitter or PH if you are concerned, tell your customers, BEFORE they put up their money that they must be shooting a .416 or larger weapon; and that as the customer pulls the first shot, you will proceed to empty your gun into the beast, just in case.

That way you are protected and your potential customer is protected, and no one will be able to retain bitching rights.

My guess is you will also have to investigate another line of work, such as pumping petrol at the local petrol station.

I am not saying that other people on this forum have lesser experience hunting buffalo or dangerous game than Saeed but I tend to believe someone with his field experience would qualify as a better bellweather than most that post on this forum. Perhaps Ray Atkinson would like to comment on this issue. I am not saying he has Saeed's experience but from what I've seen on this forum he has had a fair bit of experience with the .375 caliber with 350 grain woodleigh bullets in the .375 H&H magnum. I also know he prefers .416 or .423 caliber for buff but his experimentation in .375 with the heavier projectiles of heavier weight have proven quite effective in the past as I remember.
Maybe we'll hear from Ray on this subject as some will not take the proven track record of just one hunter, no matter what their experience.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

The PH did say that he fired no backup shots with his .505 Gibbs - firing only at the last second as the buffalo was upon him.

So I guess the 505 is "totally inadequate" as a stopper. Right?

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
...the 505 is "totally inadequate" as a stopper... Jason

Well said!

and a shotgun blast to the face, one to the buttocks, two 38 specials to the chest, one 38 special to the abdomen, and 8 more into non lethal areas are also inadequate for a man...just ask Bobby Halpern...

From the NY Times...


'Ten days later, his life took a decisive turn. He had just put a deposit down on a gray suit at B&G when two men stormed in and opened fire.

Mr. Halpern raised his left hand, and a shotgun blast tore through his palm before smashing into his mouth, removing his upper lip and eight teeth. The second man, whom Mr. Halpern never saw, opened up with a .38, hitting him twice in the chest and once in the abdomen.

When the fighter fell, blood spattering near a belt rack, the man with the .38 kept firing, reloaded, and fired more hitting Mr. Halpern 11 times. The man with the shotgun emptied a parting round into Mr. Halpern's buttocks.

Halpern survived

Same old, same old.

Just put the lead in the pump.

Of course, more lead is better than less.

I just finished reading Hunter by JA Hunter, he was a strong advocate of big stoppers. There is a chapter on using too light a rifle and he cites an example. I was very excited to read the story and get the knowlege of his experience. Well you can imagine my shock when he refers to the clients 416 rigby as too light a rifle! He then goes on to say the client gut shot the buffalo and the bull killed his gunbearer.

That was it? That is the case you are going to hang your hat on as the example? This proves a 416 is too light?

If that is the best and only reason he can come up with as to what is too light and why then I will have to respectfully disagree with him.

It reall is a very simple matter in this case.

The PH is putting the blame on something else to cover his own incompetence!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It reall is a very simple matter in this case.

The PH is putting the blame on something else to cover his own incompetence!

well said Saeed the ph is the responseble person and must take control when he thinks it is life threatning.

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It reall is a very simple matter in this case.

The PH is putting the blame on something else to cover his own incompetence!

well said Saeed the ph is the responseble person and must take control when he thinks it is life threatning.

That was exactly what happened, the gun bearer was left in the bush while the client was taken back to the truck an that is when the gunbearer was killed. The PH wasn't there to shoot.

Anyone who is going to watch an animal charge someone, or themselves, without shooting is a moron. That is the reason the PH is there.

Saying you let it charge because the client asked you not to shoot is like standing in the middle of the road, and letting a car hit you, because you were asked not to move.

Gentlemen,

Let us remember that it has become fashionable, for the inexperience and the ignorant, to say that the 375 H&H is marginal for any of the ones that can come and get you.

I will stand and face a charging buffalo with my 270 Ackly and 130 grain Barnes X bullets any day!

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this bullet in the brain is going to stop any plans the buffalo might have on me.

In any sort of a charge situation, the brain IS the place to place the bullet.

Anywhere else and all bets are off.

Those of us who have taught combat pistol shooting have a saying...

Two to the chest and One to the head

I picked up an interesting iron sighted Mauser 8x60 HS with a Nairobi gunshop name on the barrel. I managed to track down the previous owner, who was a game warden in Northern Rhodesia - Tony Boyce. He told me he used it as his work rifle, owned it for 50 years, and that little rifle took 100 buffalo and 60 elephants!! during a one month animal control operation.

He purchased it from a man in the game department who in turn had it for nearly 50 years. I think the 8x60 is pretty close to a modern 338 Win Mag, and it seemed to get the job done with 200 grain bullets..

I think Mr. Boyce and guys like Saeed who have hunted a lot can handle a hairy situations well without resorting to the cannons.

quote:

and that as the customer pulls the first shot, you will proceed to empty your gun into the beast, just in case.

The problem with this sentiment is that it's quite often the least experienced hunters who insist on doing all the shooting.

When a client shoots a buffalo (or an elephant), the PH does not know for sure whether the shot is lethal, because these large animals never fall down dead on the spot when shot in the chest. (And when they do fall down dead due to a spine or brain shot, they very often get up again). What he does know is that for every client that can shoot, there is one that can't. So when the client has taken his shot, the PH is faced with two (roughly) equally likely situations:

1. The shot is not lethal, raising the possibility of a dangerous and/or lengthy follow-up. A buffalo can keep going for three or more days if gut shot. Some clients can't handle a long hike and thus may find themselves sitting in camp or in the truck while the PH and the trackers follow up. If the PH shoots, his shot could save everyone the "sport" of dealing with such an eventuality. Under this scenario, everyone is better off if the PH puts in a finisher (and of course the client doesn't have to stop shooting either). So the right decision is to shoot.

2. The shot was good. Under this scenario, if the PH shoots, the buffalo is going to fall down dead sooner and it will soon become evident that the first shot was lethal anyway so the subsequent shots are not necessary and no harm is done by shooting. If the PH does not shoot, there is also no negative outcome, and perhaps the client will be a little prouder of his trophy.

If you analyse this decision tree, the first decision (to shoot or not) is clearly a YES as long as you think the odds of a good/bad shot are not dramatically skewed in favor of a lethal shot. For example, if you have confidence in your client and he says the shot was good. Or if you see the bullet strike or the blood in the right place. Then the PH may elect to keep the safety on.

From the client's perspective, a "no backup" mandate is foolish because there is no bad outcome and some very bad outcomes are obviated. The only time a "no backup" mandate is sensible is where the client places a very high value on a solo slaying for some reason, in which case he (the client) must be willing and able to deal with a three day hike through the bush looking for a wounded and dangerous beast...and he should also be considerate enough to tell the PH that he won't permit a backup when he makes the booking.

In other words, if an overweight or aging greenhorn wants a "no backup" hunt, the sensible thing for the PH to do is to decline the booking.

Very true Russ.

Sadly, most of the time the PH does not know what the client wants until he is in the field.

I personally have heard real horror stories of so called "hunters" who really had no business being in the bush in the first place.

Example: One individual I know made an excellent character for himself on the Internet. Giving everyone the impression he was a highly ethical and experienced hunt.

In the field, he could not hit much, and when he wounded anything his PH had to chase it. As he could not or would not walk after it. Whenever anyone shot an animal bigger than the one he shot the day before, he insisted on going and shooting another one to beat it. At the dinner table no one had a chance of saying a word, as our friend never stopped to brag about his hunt that day. None of what he said was an indication of what had happened, but a glorified lie.

Example: A hunter appears in the camp with a rifle he could not shoot. It weighs so much he can hardly carry it. Obviously he is scared of the recoil - in this instance it was a Ruger 77 in 416 Rigby, with a custom stock. He never shot it, apparently, and refused to sight it in "because he did not bring enough ammo".

He wanted to shoot a lion. But was unwilling to pay for bait animals.

Eventually he was persuaded to shoot a kudu cow - he tried shooting a hippo, but missed. He missed the cow and clobbered a very young bull standing 5 yards to the side!

What a flinch that must have been!

Example: A client appears at the camp with a rifle he could not handle. AGAIN! In this instance it was a 416 Remington.

At teh sight in he could not hit the cardboard box the target was stuck on!?

The PH felt sorry for him and sighted in his rifle for him.

He missed or wounded everything he shot at. He then agreed that the PH should help by shooting immediately he fired.

He went home very happy. He "collected" many trophies to brag about to his friends.

I have said it many times before. The average shooter is incapable of utilizing the full potential of his rifle. And many try to make up for that by getting a bigger gun!

The PH in this particular example - using a 505 - has proven that HE is not capable of stopping a charge, even with a 505, let alone a 375.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this bullet in the brain is going to stop any plans the buffalo might have on me.

In any sort of a charge situation, the brain IS the place to place the bullet.

Anywhere else and all bets are off.

I recently killed a three year old male farm cow with a 22 Hornet bullet to the brain.
Sure, not a Bull Buffalo but a heavy sculled animal anyway. But with out contact with the brain it would have been another story.
9.3- 375 is a legal minimum for a reason.

i don't know what the reason for the 9.3/375 line in the sand is. not sure at all why .338's and 8mm loadings, and for that matter, some 30 caliber loads aren't legal.

i really think the "big boomer" idea just gives some a false sense of security b/c as saeed has said, in a charge you hit the brain or it's not dead before you and you can hit the brain with many many calibers. since a .45 colt with 300grains at around 1300 fps will go through a buff broadside and break a shoulder, not sure why the 375 limit.

I think the 375 min comes from...

1. Min energy requirements based on what has been historically effective (i.e. 4000 ft-lbs).

2. The availability of solids in factory loaded ammo....

In Zimbabwe, the reason was that the 375 H&H had solid factory ammo, the 338 did not.

I think if the 338 had factory solids on offer then, it might have been the specified minimum.

/

Harry Selby once told he "How marvelous that cartridge is has been proven over time. It performs in a way that mere ballistics do not explain."

I think for a lot of people, they feel the same way. It's just a good balanced round that does a hell of a lot.

_BAxter