quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

Let us remember that it has become fashionable, for the inexperience and the ignorant, to say that the 375 H&H is marginal for any of the ones that can come and get you.

I will stand and face a charging buffalo with my 270 Ackly and 130 grain Barnes X bullets any day!

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this bullet in the brain is going to stop any plans the buffalo might have on me.

In any sort of a charge situation, the brain IS the place to place the bullet.

Anywhere else and all bets are off.

I would imagine that some hunters don't become as familiar with their DG rifle(s) as perhaps they should. I put almost a thousand rounds through my .375, most offhand, prior to my last hunt. I felt that I could place a shot well within the kill zone if circumstances required before I ever left. Maybe some guys can do it with a smaller ammunition expenditure, but that's what it took for me.

I must be totally intimate with my rifle before I enter the fray. I don't want to have to depend 100% on the PH to bail me out if I screw up. That's a lot of reloading, but it worked for me.

I'm going back in a couple of years, and if I can afford a .416 Rigby, I may get one, although at age 65 and 175 lbs, the .375 may be my limit for consistent practice. Time will tell.

Just my 2c.

I guess my elephant this year did not know this about the 375 as Pierre's 375 dropped him in a charge. As many have said, Proper shot placement is all its about.

IMO, PH just blaming caliber for poor decision making on his part. Time to quit blaming and look inside for the answers.

Wasn't it Wally Johnson "The last elephant Hunter" who shot the majority of his elephants with the 375 H&H?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

I recently killed a three year old male farm cow with a 22 Hornet bullet to the brain.
Sure, not a Bull Buffalo but a heavy sculled animal anyway. But with out contact with the brain it would have been another story.
9.3- 375 is a legal minimum for a reason.

Reminds me of the Inuit hunter my uncle told me about when he was stationed in Alaska back in the 70's. He said the old man used an old 22 short rimfire for hunting seals and polar bear. Just goes to show the importance of shot placement when the biggest predator on earth falls to one of the, if not the, least powerful rounds on earth.

My buffalo was dead with one shot from my 375, so was my elephant.

Dave

Well said Canuck32 Beutiful Elephant where were you on the hunt and the LK is a prize.

From a double perspective

A man with a .375 advancing on prey and knows how to really use it the buff is history in every case if the shot is true. My Pa at the safari shows asks people if they wants some african mushrooms and hands them his 2 .375 slugs from a buuf and then laughs and says these kept my son out of debt. He sells primarily .470s and shoots .375 and when you ask him why he shoots 375 he tells them not every one is as smart as he is, and if asked what he recomends its the .470 after all business is great in second hand .470s

SCENARIO: The grass is burned or short you will be at 100+ yards on buff in TZ for the most part, in Bot same deal unless you in the OkD them it could be close or far in ZA close or far depending on the property.

Do you really want your only chance on the hunt with say ay.500 nitro to be that 113 yard for the first shot and 142 on the second. think come from accurate fire from 375 out to 200 yards you get at least a third shot and maybe 4 with a bolt


I've lost impala at 25 meters and taken African wild cat at 100 meters, I have lost buffalo from a bad shot, i have taken running warthog at 100 yards i have used a double barrel to help free a crushed foot, I have hunted in 5 meter grass for miles with 10 pounds of hell following shit of ever increasing temperature . I have faced Elephant when everone ran but I and my bestfriend the PH that was behind me now but in the front when back in the grass and we could only laugh as the monkeys scurried up the trees just like a cartoon at the thought that what energy we had left wasn't to get up the trees but think about solids and how much this was going to cost wether we paid or our families did. He had a 375 and I 500 but then Pa is the smart one and the cow finally decided to quit pushing as she took pity on the foolish lads that had there rifles backwards and agreed with mister buuf back in the grass that she should let us be as he could have had us at anytime.

This is the same old argument, but bigger is always better. Of course, one can throw up examples of some guy that can't shoot a big big-bore, etc., but all else being equal a big gun will be more likely to stop an animal if the brain/spine is missed than a smaller bore.

A 375 H&H works on buffalo, as long as it is a good shot to the lungs/heart, as it would be on any animal. But a close miss will not knock down a buff or an elephant.

On elephant, the little stuff is just that, little. Missing the brain has little effect with a 375 H&H or the smaller stuff. You need 5000 ft-lbs or more with a heavy bullet to knockdown or turn them.

You can talk the talk about the 375 being a stopper, but I don't know any PH that uses one.

It'd be bad taste to name them, so I won't - but I know of at least 2 PHs who used to use 375 H&Hs as their carry rifle...... neither of them do anymore. Both of them got stamped on by Elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This is the same old argument, but bigger is always better. Of course, one can throw up examples of some guy that can't shoot a big big-bore, etc., but all else being equal a big gun will be more likely to stop an animal if the brain/spine is missed than a smaller bore.

Amen...

These examples lead to the stereotype that anyone carrying anything bigger than a 375 is trying to compensate for lack of marksmanship and are trying to “buy†their abilities…..

Which is total bulls**t……….

It takes a hell of a lot more skill to shoot a big bore than a lesser caliber……..

quote:

know

I am a young hunter, and as young stupid (but improving)on my 3 safari after 4 eles i told my ph Not to shoot if he didn´t find it neccesary. I wounded that buff and the ph (Willy Mills) didn´t shoot because he was quite confident on my shooting. 3 hours later we finished together that buff(took 7 375 solids and 8 458lott). I have never been more afraid in my life and in that moment I prayed god for being in another place. I tried to sort out what I was doing there.... I must say that Willy said he would track it alone and I refused. His capability is very high and thanks to him things ended well and we recovered the buff. From then on I tell all Ph to shoot if they think it is neccesary!

Will, a .375 H&H is not a stopper. You are correct. It's not an extremely long range gun either. It's an all-arounder that has accomplished stopping shots and long range shots in the past and will continue to do so in the future. A little bit of both worlds but not the best at either. I'd rather have a .470 NE DR for my stopper and a .300 Winchester or Weatherby for my long range gun. The .375 H&H will do either though. When you state that this is the same old argument about "one can throw up examples of some guy that can't shoot a big big-bore, etc., but all else being equal a big gun will be more likely to stop an animal if the brain/spine is missed than a smaller bore".
What do you think you are saying when you state that "A 375 H&H works on buffalo, as long as it is a good shot to the lungs/heart, as it would be on any animal. But a close miss will not knock down a buff or an elephant" That's the same old tired print as what you are criticizing others for saying. If you make a poor shot with any caliber you're going to be in trouble. You're just going the opposite way and in a sense it does sound like you're compensating for marksmanship with bullet diameter. I'm not wanting to start any argument but just something that I noticed.

Take care,

jfm

jfm,

I've shot most of my buff with a 375 H&H. It worked fine. They run a few yards and fall down.

I have nothing against a 375 H&H, but I wouldn't want to face any charging buff or elephant with one. But you go with what you have.

If you miss the brain or spine you need knockdown/knockout and that is more likely to happen with a bigger cartridge with a heavier bullet. I don't think that is inconsistent reasoning.

There are just too many stories, and from my own experience, that peashooters just have no effect. The one elephant cow took a 460 Weatherby solid, a 470 NE solid, and then a 416 Rigby solid in the head before it rurned. We really could have been in deep doo-doo.

Guys that go on about the greater than the 470 (458, etc.) stuff like the 500 Jeffery, the 500 NE, the 505 Gibbs, the 577 NE, etc. have seen the difference! There are no guarantees with any of them, but then the risk, I believe, is significantly smaller.

And, saying I am using an excuse for "compensating for (poor) markmanship" with a bigger bullet is not valid.

If you watch the recent videos of elephant hunts, most of the elephant are shot after a deliberate aim and most of them are knocked down and the elephant is proclaimed as being brain shot but they really were not, just momentarily knocked out or dazed.

There are very, very few of the elephant hunts where the elephant is actually putting on a determined charge. My hat is off to the guys that can brain them under those conditions, whether on purpose or mere luck. Mostly sheer luck in many cases I suppose, because the PH typically doesn't get it done either.

But the PH is typically using a large caliber cartridge, if not the client, and can usually turn or knock down the elephant if necessary.

When that elephant comes busting through the brush, hell bent on squishing you, "good marksmanship" may just possibly be a figment of ones imagination!

Thanks Will

You are on the top 10 list of guys I learn from every day

........In my experience here in Alaska it has proven that wider bullets at similar speeds as narrower bullets kill better ...But only if it can be shot well........Also expanding bullets kill or incapacitate a big animal faster than a non expanding bullet does ...with body shots ......I would far prefer a 300 gr 416 or 458 X bullet @ 2700 fps than a 300 gr..375 X bullet at the same speed , if I had to stop a charging bear ,lion , buffalo , .....................You get similar penetration .,,identical recoil but a bigger hole ............Obviously the 375 kills Cape Buffalo just fine but I think wider is better ...

Will, point well taken.

Thanks,

jfm

I am a novice having shot one buffalo and one elephant with my .416 Rigby.

In Zim last August, the PH was using a .458 Lott and I remarked that that was near maximum. He said: "Oh, no I am having a .500 A-Square built to replace the Lott". I know I don't want to hunt with either of those cannons.

Recently on "Dangerous Game" I saw this same outfitter guided a lady who shot an elephant with a BOW & ARROW! I hope the arrow was wider than .375.

Thank you Saeed for you very informative posts. I agree that the .338 Win. Mag./.340 Wby. Mag. are capable of handling Dangerous game with the right bullet. This includes buffalo, and elephant. So far, the only "Dangerous" game that I have taken with the above was a very large Kodiak bear that I shot at 25 yards with a .340 Wby. Mag. The bruin was shot through the neck , and didn't take another step. Needless to say my guide was very impressed with this. I used a 250 grain Nosler Partition. Before I went to Alaska I shot this rifle (a old West German Mark V) alot! The more I shot it the better I handled the recoil. My Brother who doesn't shoot as much as I did thought that the .340 was the most brutal gun that he has shot. I have found that to a certain threshold the more you shoot a heavy recoiling rifle the more accustom you become. Hense the better shot one will be. This we can compare with playing football. The first days of practice one is sore because of the hitting. By the the end of the following week your body is ajusted to this, and hits will not seem as punishing. To be good at anything worthy takes hard work, and to shoot a hard recoiling rifle accurately is worthy indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
When that elephant comes busting through the brush, hell bent on squishing you, "good marksmanship" may just possibly be a figment of ones imagination!

One thing is certain: if you ever find yourself in that situation, you'll soon discover what you are made of.

I l-o-v-e my M70 .375 Safari Express with heavy barrel! The buff didn't!

' Tea Party,

and rather than upgrade to 400gr .416, it seems to make more sense to go all the way to a 450gr. .458WinMag which at 2300fps has a similar trajectory out to 250-300yds and has more energy doing it.

And in my experience is much gentler to shoot that the 300gr .375@ 2600fps.

I'm considering selling everything I have between my 6.5x55 and my .458WinMag. Use the .458 on all plains and DG in Africa.

Les

Well since I just got my SCI mag yesterday (the mail must run a little slow on the left coast) I can finally comment on this article. We all know that the 375 will do everything (as will a 7X57 or a 505) but it won't be the best choice in every situation. Well DUH!

I have shot a lot of buffalo with the .375 H&H and it has never failed me..It has one weakness and that is on frontal shots, but if you use a solid on that shot it never seems to fail, a soft has been known to run around the outside of the rib cage on frontal shots, thus the ya ya on the .375..that is a failure to be prepared IMO...

I would hunt anything on the earth with a .375 and I consider it a stopper, a stopper is a proper brain or spine shot on a charging buffalo, all else is questionable IMO.....

To each his own and my favorite buff gun is a 40 caliber, but for no particular reason, just figure it gives me a very slight edge, but good shooting and proper bullets is what its all about, not caliber.

I have seen the .470 and 500 N.E. fail, so there ya go.

As is often the case on these threads, a great deal of buffalo droppings are sent through the airways.....

Ray, thanks for responding to this post. I knew that you were preferential to the .416 or .423 calibers for buffalo and rightly so. I personally am more interested in .458 and above for strictly dangerous game such as buffalo or elephant but that most likely shows my uncertainty in shot placement when the situation deteriorates. I have read your posts in the past stating that the 350 grain .375 caliber Woodleigh bullet worked very well on buffalo as did the 450 grain Woodleigh bullet in .416 caliber. I respect your opinion as well as Saeed's when it comes to hunting DG. Thanks again for the informative post.

Regards,

jfm

I'd love to use my 375 H&H or 375 Ruger loaded with 270-grain Barnes TSX bullets on buffalo.

I also read the article and " they watched the buff on the ground and no one put a shot into the supposedly dead buf to make sure of its demise..." That old African quotation " its the dead ones that kill you..."

Why one would not put in an insurance shot is beyond me.. From experience, my two buf I thumped after they were on the ground and my big ele bull I ran up to him and shot him 4 more times as he lay there still breathing...

Mike

IMO, On a buffalo without his adrenalin up, if the first shot is a good one, almost any 30 cal on up would probably work adequately--most of the time. If the first shot is a bad one, with almost any caliber, the only thing that will work quickly afterwards is a CNS shot with a solid. The 375 is a good choice for buffalo, but at the light end of good choices. It'll obviously work on eles, but something bigger is better. I'll follow Will's advice on them, if i can just find where I put his book.

There has been many occasions, where a hunter was using a larger caliber than a 375, shot a charging buffalo somewhere but not the brain, and buffalo managed to get o him.

Now, can anyone give me ONE example of a charging buffalo being hit in the brain by a 375 and did not drop dead?

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that over the years more than a million buffalo have been killed with the 375 H&H. Given that, if I was called on to follow up a wounded buffalo and I had my choice between my 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 465 Nitro double or 470 Nitro double the 375 H&H would be my last choice. But I would have only slightly less confidence in it than the others.

465H&H

Old coyote,
Have only shot two Cape Buff, killed both with 250X's for 338.
Two shots two buff.
Was backed up by 416, could too many people be
using solids?

quote:

Originally posted by larbo:
Old coyote,
Have only shot two Cape Buff, killed both with 250X's for 338.
Two shots two buff.
Was backed up by 416, could too many people be
using solids?

Is that you Steve, you mongrel?

When did you slot those two buff, 1999? They must be getting tougher now

Did you see any shot with solids from 375 or other calibres?? How did they perform?

Hi Blair
Think it was 99, One of the guys I was with used a 375H&H with solids and shot each Buff four times, the other a 458 again with solids, shot one with it 3 shots and one long chase. He then shot his second with my 338, it ran 50 yards and went down he then used a solid I had in the mag to finish it off.
Have seen 4 buff shot with 300 mags on another trip using heavy X bullets and they worked well.

Steve,

Thought it was you mate.

4 shots with a 375 using solids........that would be exciting! That was in Moz, wasn't it?

Yeah, I remember that rogue, Kelly Davis saying a 300 with good bullets was fine for buff......were they 200's that were used on the buff you saw shot with the 300's?

Hi again
Think it was 99, and it was Moz.
Rang one of those guy's and told they were the old 200 XFB in Win. Mag's.
You picked the outfitter and I use that term loosely.
I'm hoping someone reply's who has used one of the appropriate calibers with one of premium bullets.
Must get together sometime soon for a beer, sorry scotch.
Give the best to your Mum.

Aside from the wealth of opinion and experience shared in this thread...I have been amazed by the tales of hunters who can't shoot, AND PH's who take men into the bush with NO IDEA of their competence.
I've been fortunate enough over the years to have gone into the bush for DG with 3 different PH's. In every case, I was asked me to shoot a bit before we headed out. Ostensibly this would be to "check my sights". I'm quite confident it was also intended to see if I could actually HIT ANYTHING, standing on my own hind legs, offhand @ 50yds. or so. I would not have been comfortable with any of them, had they NOT asked this of me.
Cheers,
Don

quote:

Originally posted by larbo:
Hi again
Think it was 99, and it was Moz.
Rang one of those guy's and told they were the old 200 XFB in Win. Mag's.
You picked the outfitter and I use that term loosely.
I'm hoping someone reply's who has used one of the appropriate calibers with one of premium bullets.
Must get together sometime soon for a beer, sorry scotch.
Give the best to your Mum.

That would be good mate.........we can have beer with a scotch chaser

My old mum is good, still smoking and drinking!!!

I am in the process of determining ones body weight vs handling recoil, I had no problem with my 375, 416 Taylor or 450/400 at 270lbs. so far no problem with the 450/400 at 220 lbs. Hopefully I will see at less than 200.

I never understand discussions like this. No question the 375 is adequate but when my life is possibly at risk I'm looking more for ideal than adequate. I have been fortunate to hunt with some wonderful PHs who I had total confidence in their ability to protect me. I have also had two who were reckless and lousy shots. Do not assume they all can shoot lights out. I watched one miss a standing wart hog at 75 yards twice and went dove shooting with another that was terrible. Not all PHs are gun nuts so be prepared to take care of yourself. With the problem with snares in Africa you can never be sure what might be behind the next bush.

to answer your question, saeed, no there isn't a buff or ele that has been brained that is still alive.

i think it just gives a false sense of security to think you're gonna get extra mileage out of "shocking" an animal down, aint gonna happen. if a guy takes a buff down with 4 poor shots with a 505 and one good one, the general response i see here and on videos is that he's lucky he was using a 505. if a guy does the same thing with a .375 then he thinks he needs a bigger caliber b/c it took five shots, bottom line is that it took just one good one in either case.

if i'm needing a stopping rifle, i'm going with what i shoot best, as i'm gonna need a cns shot. whether it's my 454, my 45/70, one of my 375's or my 460 it's gonna be what i shoot best and that's why i care about my ph's skill and not what he's carrying.