quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
"Harry Selby one said all clients should use a 375" and take that to mean PHs don't appreciate the guy who shows up in camp really proficient with a true big bore rifle.

Todd,

That is not exactly what Mr. Selby was implying. Your "quote" was from a thread about my Hoffman .375 H&H. Mr. Selby's statement was.....

"In my opinion you have not only an exceptionally beautiful rifle there but an entirely practical one as well. In my fifty five years of professional hunting my respect for the .375 H&H cartridge has increased each time I saw it used. In my opinion the greatest cartridge ever developed. I would prefer to see a visiting hunter arrive for his safari with such a rifle than with a double of any caliber."

Yes, he's a fan of the .375 as a single battery rifle for good reason. I don't think your skill with your double is even close to representative of the majority that show up in Africa with a double. I for one, am not close to your accuracy with a double, though I am improving. With my scoped .375 I am very proficient in the placement of the first shot, thus practically everything I've shot in Africa died rapidly from that one shot. I will be the first to admit, that would not be the case If I took only a double.

quote:

This is not what happens in the field... the hunter/shooter who turns to shit is the one who hasnt practiced proper technique - and practiced a LOT.

I don't believe that for one minute. You either have it in you to stand or you don't. I'm sure practice builds confidence but it doesn't necessarily replace fear (or control of fear). I had not fired my .416 Rigby a hundred times when the rodeo happened, I was, however, filled with 45 years of hunting experience with a BA rifle.

Guys, I am not trying to make myself special, it happened as it happened, I don't know why I didn't run, I am lucky to have survived, but I just do not have the "time in" with doubles to feel as confident as I do with a BA. I now own 5 doubles, if you count the O/U, so I like messing with them, and will hunt with them as I become more confident, but I honestly doubt I will ever be as good with a double beyond 2 shots as with my BA rifles.

BTW Todd,

You are excellent with the double, I wish I had the time to become that proficient.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
"Harry Selby one said all clients should use a 375" and take that to mean PHs don't appreciate the guy who shows up in camp really proficient with a true big bore rifle.

Todd,

That is not exactly what Mr. Selby was implying. Your "quote" was from a thread about my Hoffman .375 H&H. Mr. Selby's statement was.....

"In my opinion you have not only an exceptionally beautiful rifle there but an entirely practical one as well. In my fifty five years of professional hunting my respect for the .375 H&H cartridge has increased each time I saw it used. In my opinion the greatest cartridge ever developed. I would prefer to see a visiting hunter arrive for his safari with such a rifle than with a double of any caliber."

Yes, he's a fan of the .375 as a single battery rifle for good reason. I don't think your skill with your double is even close to representative of the majority that show up in Africa with a double. I for one, am not close to your accuracy with a double, though I am improving. With my scoped .375 I am very proficient in the placement of the first shot, thus practically everything I've shot in Africa died rapidly from that one shot. I will be the first to admit, that would not be the case If I took only a double.

Actually Jim, I wasn't referring to your previous post. Not at all. I was making more of a generic statement along the lines of the old saying "A well placed 375 is better than a poorly placed 577" and the like. While that is true, it implies by omission, that there are no guys proficient with the big bores as well. As I like to retort "A well placed 500NE is better than a well placed 375H&H"! I noticed Trax had commented and I saw the "Selby" name and stopped reading as I know his modis operandi from past exchanges where he quotes Selby and other PHs concerning 375s without any field experience of his own.

So no Jim, I wasn't quoting you or responding to you in that statement. My comment was generic. Sorry if you took it that way.

Really the video is just a practical demo of all the old campfire arguments. Nothing more. There really shouldn't be anything more read into it than that, but some of the excuses have become quite humorous simply because they were so easily predicted. The "Go signal being the double rifle's report instead of a verbal 'GO'" wasn't predicted however. That one made me laugh out loud as the video clearly has a verbal "GO" command. The thread is now long on "should have done this, should have done that, field conditions with logs on the ground and such, but short on videos! ShootawY claims 4 seconds for 4 accurate shots with a bolt gun. I know he has a video camera. He's posted videos previously. But when I asked him to demo his 4 accurate shots in 4 seconds, he now states that "other guys" here on AR have done it. Why not him? Why "other guys"? I've seen videos of guys shooting quickly but I searched and searched to find a bolt and double shooter squaring off. I'm sure there are some out there but I couldn't find any. Back when I first promised to do this video, I asked if anyone knew of such a video and I got no responses.

It was just a friendly competition for fun. I'd like to see some other guys shoot the same event, not just tell us about it.

Mike70560, yeah I agree with you. An extractor gun isn't much slower if at all. It's a matter of practice. I never feel ill equipped with extractors only.

I certainly apologize for questioning the results of your video. I presumed presenting something like that invited comment. There is no question you are extremely fast with a double. Equally fast getting pissed off. Have a nice day!

Great video. Thanks for posting.

I got some practice ahead of me with my double!


,

Nice shooting Todd.

Something to remember, paired shots from a DR will always be faster than from a BA - it's the odd numbered shots that'll be faster from the BA until it has to be reloaded that'll be faster...

All things being equal - equal being a drop box BA giving 1 in the tube +5 down - should equal the following:
1st shot - equal
2nd shot - DR
3rd shot - BA
4th shot - DR
5th shot - BA
6th shot - DR
So we have a draw...

Now if this were a DR and a Lever Action - such as the .416 Ruger BLR I saw the video of the other day it'd be:
1st shot - equal
2nd shot - DR
3rd shot - LA
4th shot - LA
5th shot - DR
6th shot - equal??? Or DR

Me I figure this will be completely settled once someone manufactures a Lever Action Double Barrel DG caliber rifle with a removable magazine - 6 round double single stack (that'd be 3 rounds for each barrel) plus one in each tube so we'd have a rifle as fast as a double for paired shots with faster reloading than a BA or DR. Only thing that'd be faster is a full auto DG caliber rifle followed by a semi-auto DG caliber rifle...

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I certainly apologize for questioning the results of your video. I presumed presenting something like that invited comment. There is no question you are extremely fast with a double. Equally fast getting pissed off. Have a nice day!

No not pissed off at all. And certainly open to comments. Just thought it was funny to comment that the go signal was the double rifle's report when there is a clear verbal "GO". That's all.

Actually, I may have come off as sounding angry or perturbed, but that wasn't my intent. Sorry if it sounded that way. Really, I'd like to see some others do a video like this. We worked with the shooters and rifles we had on hand. Anyone else who does the same will face the same issues unless they have a professional production. There will be questions and "what if's" with just about any set up one can produce. We really tried to eliminate all of those variables we could. That's why we ran so many events until we got both rifles and shooters a clean run. The bolt jammed and spit a round on the ground in 4 of the tries. I had the right barrel fail to eject on one. Finally, the one you see presented, had both of us doing our best with no equipment issues.

If we had 4 or 5 of these types of demos, we could look at all the strengths and weaknesses on each one and maybe, somewhere in there we could get a demo where everyone agreed that both rifles and both shooters were on equal ground and a valid experiment. I'm betting we could never get to that point however!

Sorry if you thought I was mad at you. I'm not. Just thought the "GO" signal comment was funny!

Cheers man!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Nice shooting Todd.

Something to remember, paired shots from a DR will always be faster than from a BA - it's the odd numbered shots that'll be faster from the BA until it has to be reloaded that'll be faster...

All things being equal - equal being a drop box BA giving 1 in the tube +5 down - should equal the following:
1st shot - equal
2nd shot - DR
3rd shot - BA
4th shot - DR
5th shot - BA
6th shot - DR
So we have a draw...

Now if this were a DR and a Lever Action - such as the .416 Ruger BLR I saw the video of the other day it'd be:
1st shot - equal
2nd shot - DR
3rd shot - LA
4th shot - LA
5th shot - DR
6th shot - equal??? Or DR

Me I figure this will be completely settled once someone manufactures a Lever Action Double Barrel DG caliber rifle with a removable magazine - 6 round double single stack (that'd be 3 rounds for each barrel) plus one in each tube so we'd have a rifle as fast as a double for paired shots with faster reloading than a BA or DR. Only thing that'd be faster is a full auto DG caliber rifle followed by a semi-auto DG caliber rifle...

Jim, yep, those are the exact discussions we were attempting to demo. I think you are probably correct as well. Without reviewing the demo again, I think Eric may have just beat me on the 3rd shot, as per your comments. Then my 4th was faster than his. I think your comments on the LA are spot on as well. Depending on how many rounds the LA holds, I doubt a double could keep pace with a lever gun. I saw that 416 Ruger BLR video as well and it's pretty impressive.

No problem. I was wrong about the report start. I think you will agree the person giving the command does have a slight advantage. It is only natural to initiate gun movement anticipating the start. That was what I meant. Be careful Will doesn't show up with A Blaser!

Todd

great shooting. I just checked the video of my last elephant were I took 4 shoots with my VC 500 as fast as I could. 13.8 seconds
Well-its back to the range!

http://i1018.photobucket.com/a...less_zps6631a80e.mp4


Good Hunting

Carl Frederik

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
No problem. I was wrong about the report start. I think you will agree the person giving the command does have a slight advantage. It is only natural to initiate gun movement anticipating the start. That was what I meant. Be careful Will doesn't show about with A Blaser!

Yes, you are correct in that the guy giving the command has the edge. Again working with what we had, I gave the command but I tried to not move the gun from the ready position until AFTER saying "GO". Maybe a better way would have been for me to say "Ready" and Eric to then say "GO". Still, a third guy would have been better, and he could have run the camera as well. Lots of variables to consider trying to get it equal across the board.

A fine demonstration!

Good shooting there shoots. I counted, and granted starting from the rifle's report, not a "go" command, I got 10 seconds, 10 seconds (were the first 2 the same footage?), 11 seconds, 10 seconds, 9 seconds, 9 seconds, and then the last one cut off before finishing. Looked pretty good to me actually.

I counted 9 seconds from the "Go" command for Eric, 8 seconds from the report of his first shot. So Eric shot a little faster than you Shoots, but then he is shooting a lighter recoiling rifle as well in the 416 Rigby whereas you are shooting a 458 Lott.

Todd,you are shooting at 25yds and it is not even accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Todd,you are shooting at 25yds and it is not even accurate.

What do you mean George? My target is on the right. I've got 1 in the orange bull, two grouped together in the next ring, and the 4th high and right that I rushed when I thought Eric had beat me to the 4th shot? I didn't mention it but I only saw 3 of your first 4 hit the black, after which it became hard to tell if you were hitting it each time. It also looked like you are shooting at a very close range, although I figure much of that is the camera's focal length. I think all of your shots as well as mine would have been good hits on a buffalo. Don't you?

Todd,since we are looking closely at speed and accuracy on this thread it is very important to look at the distances at which we are shooting.You said you were shooting at 30yds.There is a big difference in shooting at 50 and shooting at 30yds in terms of speed and accuracy.Look at my second video at 25yds and then the one at 50yds and you will see the difference.If I were to set my video camera the way you did and not zoom in, my 50yd target would seem extremely far.

I went fishing the other day, and got on a rockpile full of grouper. I caught four using a bomber long A salt, but after that, they wised up and quit hitting it.



Todd,
How many bites have you had, and how many have you landed?

Todd,
Nice video, thanks for taking the time to put it together, sounds like you had several hurdles to clear to get it made. Sorry there always has to be so much BS over whatever it is gets posted. Wish i lived closer, be fun to hang out and see what others videos we could make to generate disagreements.

quote:

Originally posted by mmassey338:
I went fishing the other day, and got on a rockpile full of grouper. I caught four using a bomber long A salt, but after that, they wised up and quit hitting it.



Todd,
How many bites have you had, and how many have you landed?

Yeah, he was responding in a sane and "high functioning" manner for a short time there so I decided to give him a chance. I'm assuming the meds were "quick release" rather than "timed release" and just wore off quickly. I did keep my guard up this time however, and was watching for the whirlpool that indicates the deep end drop off.

Thanks for looking out for me though!! Appreciate it!


Also,

Brent, thanks for the comments. Yeah, it would be nice to get together with many of the forum members to shoot, hunt, and tell stories. Look me up if you ever get down this way. Cheers.

Mr. Brown and others here on both sides, are quite correct about the omission of a couple of moves in the explanation. I assure you it was not intentional. The moves made with a double rifle are mostly not moves that cause any type on malfunction in the rifle, unless the shooter drops one or both cartridges, all others have nothing to do with the mechanical outcome on the target but do on the time elapse.

The above can’t be said of the bolt rifle. In the case of the bolt rifle any one of the moves needed to get four shots down range and on target can cause a mechanical malfunction in the rifle.

I have no need to prove anything to you or anyone else. My post is informational, and can be accepted or not by the reader. Others may believe what ever they want, but when they get on the firing line the BS ends very quickly. Show up and burn some powder and see for yourself!

In any event the fact is, if both shooters are equally proficient with their chosen bolt rifle, and double rifle, and nothing is broken on either type, the double will come off on top for four shots in far more cases than not.

The only mistake Todd made was in the way the shoot was conducted, was making the mistake that it would not cause a bunch of excuses as to why the double beat the bolt rifle. That turn out has been witnessed in this thread. The opinions put forth denying the results, I would bet my next retirement check that most, if no all were made by people who have never even fired a big bore double rifle, or seen one fired by one who has done so for any length of time.

Todd’s pictured shoot-off was fair, but would have yielded more definitive results if the start of each shooter was individually timed with a digital stop watch. Time to start for each shooter, being when he fires his first shot, and stop when he fires his last shot. Then score the target. Then compare the times and score with the other shooter, that will tell you something!

We at DRSS use an 8 inch black bull with a 2 inch white X-ring @ 25 yds. Highest possible score is 40 points if all shots hit the X-ring. When the target is scored any shot that misses the black or the X-ring is not counted even though that shot would still be in the kill zone on a Cape buffalo. This way each person has his own set of times and score for accuracy. It makes little difference how fast one shoots and re-loads if his shots do not hit the target’s vital zone.

Todd’s shoot on his film clip was very informal, but shows the big bore double can be fired, re-loaded very quickly, and still hit where the rifle is pointed for four shots.

In the end that is one reason the double rifle is as fast as it is, and that is because they handle so much better than the bolt rifle for instinctive shooting. The design also has far fewer things that cause failure to feed, or jams if worked fast.

Most misconceptions where the double rifles are concerned are repeated time and again by writers who don’t have a clue if what they are writing is true or not. The worst thing printed is they say a double rifle is regulated to cross at a given distance, which is absolutely untrue. There is another old opinion printed in thousands of gun magazines, by people who do not understand double rifles. That is for quick re-load of a double rifle one places two rounds in between the first and second fingers of the left hand (of a right handed shooter). That is absolutely the best way to have to dig your rounds out of the dirt at your feet. The heavy recoil of the first two shots will usually cause one or both cartridges to drop from the shooters fingers.

Todd uses a belt, and is quick with it! I use a two shot fixture on the back of my trigger hand, and load with my left hand. That keeps the new rounds within 5 inches of the chambers, and with the broke open rifle held high, the re-load can be done in one move for both barrels simultaneously, (picture of the way to hold those two rounds at the bottom of this post )and still keep the target in view. If you disagree with the hands in that picture, he happens to be one of the best ever in the use of big bore double rifles, Elmer Keith. With the right hand never leaving the wrist and triggers this is method very quick.

You must know that a full 90 % of the double rifle shooters who are proficient were proficient with bolt rifle long before they even took up double rifle shooting. Not to brag but I am very quick and accurate with a bolt rifle, but faster and just as accurate with a double rifle for four shots in the scenario we are discussing, stopping a charge. The old saw, saying that one must take his eyes off the target to re-load a double rifle is simply not true, at least in my case. I think most folks are going by the clients that are new to double rifles they see on hunting films. Most of those guys are the same ones here who do not believe a double rifle can be quicker than a bolt rifle for four shots.
.

Todd’s film was not made to cause an argument but simply as entertainment, and was very casual in its presentation. Even Todd re-loading from a belt he beat the bolt rifle, and I didn’t time these two shooters, but they were very quick on both sides. The time that counts is, not when either of the shooters fired first, but the time lapse between each shooters first and last shot. That, if measured, will tell you what you need to know, if you really want to know, but once that is done, no amount of BS will be possible one way or the other. Be careful what you wish for, you may not get the results you want.

There are many ways to handle the rifles in question and the one that works best for the shooter is the one he should use. It makes no difference if the rifle is a single shot, a double rifle, or a bolt rifle. None of this is worth loosing the respect of friends, but facts are facts and when presented properly are not deniable! That fact will not deter some here however.

HOLD YOUR FIRE, TILL I GET DUG IN! ..................

quote:

Will, what is your problem?

Nobody here knows for sure except that it a really long word and the diagnosis is hard to pronounce.

I've mentioned this before but it boils down to training and drilling with your chosen platform. When Will makes a comment like you can only practice stopping charging elephants by shooting charging elephants. He's kind of got a point in that true field experience is irreplaceable.

However, if Will's statement were true then the only way for a LEO to practice stopping an attacking bad guy would be to shoot attacking bad guys. The only way a soldier could practice for a fire fight is be in a fire fight. The only way a pilot could practice for a compressor stall and subsequent engine siezure at V1 would be to have an actual event so on and so forth.

The reality of situation is that we can drill to use our weapon platform correctly, efficiently and with speed outside of an actual emergency. I do it all the time with everything from a heavy sporting rifle to a combat handgun.

You will never rise to the occasion in an adrenaline filled emergency situation rather you will fall to the level of your training. That is proven fact. Will proves this dictum true every time he mentions his inability to use a double trigger gun. A guy gets jacked up and excited when pressured and he will fall to the level of his muscle memory if that muscle memory hasn't included the act of transitioning triggers he isn't going to accomplish it during a moment of excitement.

If you don't train for it constantly it won't work for you when the chips are down.

Todd and Eric-

Fun experiment!

Thanks for sharing.

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:

quote:

This is not what happens in the field... the hunter/shooter who turns to shit is the one who hasnt practiced proper technique - and practiced a LOT.

I don't believe that for one minute. You either have it in you to stand or you don't. I'm sure practice builds confidence but it doesn't necessarily replace fear (or control of fear). I had not fired my .416 Rigby a hundred times when the rodeo happened, I was, however, filled with 45 years of hunting experience with a BA rifle.

I think you are just proving my point here - you were well practiced with a bolt action and you performed. Bravery is a whole other thing.

A lot of guys just dont give themselves much trigger time and when push comes to shove or they have to make a snappy shot.... something will go wrong!

Todd, great video, Matt great posts.

Balls without technique is just dangerous, technique without some balls is a just a hobby. I won't use the word bravery unless you're risking yourself for someone else. If it's just saving your own butt, but standing your ground on a charge, I call that balls (also an important thing lol)

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
There is another old opinion printed in thousands of gun magazines, by people who do not understand double rifles. That is for quick re-load of a double rifle one places two rounds in between the first and second fingers of the left hand (of a right handed shooter). That is absolutely the best way to have to dig your rounds out of the dirt at your feet. The heavy recoil of the first two shots will usually cause one or both cartridges to drop from the shooters fingers.

I have tried to make this work but it just doesnt, as you say. Not that the rounds drop but that when you go to drop them in the chambers, you will never get the cartridges to be pointing parallel to go in smoothly. Murphys Law says that will definitely happen in the field of course!!

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Balls without technique is just dangerous, technique without some balls is a just a hobby.

I like it!!

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I won't use the word bravery unless you're risking yourself for someone else.

OK!! Makes sense!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Kind of like all the guys that regurgitate "Harry Selby one said all clients should use a 375" and take that to mean PHs don't appreciate the guy who shows up in camp really proficient with a true big bore rifle. I can tell you, they do!

I dont recall Selby saying that all clients should use a .375 over a bigbore double.

However, I do recall Mr.Selby saying that a number of clients over the yrs who were not proficient with bigbore doubles,
did prove to be more proficient/succcessful in executing quicker,cleaner kills when using the .375hh.
which resulted in Selby and other PHs having to do far less dangerous tracking jobs on wounded DG.

As a result, the .375 found great praise,favor and general recommendation [as a clients rifle], from several well experienced PHs.


[quote]
...It had become customary on pre-war safaris for clients to hire a heavy double rifle from the safari company for elephant, rhino and buffalo, and the .375’s role had been largely for use on the larger plains game and lion. However, due to the advent of convenient and time-saving air travel, combined with the writings of people such as Hemingway, Ruark and O’Connor, increasing numbers of people decided to undertake an African safari, and many of them had minimal hunting experience and were not too familiar in the use of firearms either. It takes time and much practice to shoot a heavy double rifle well, and having read stories about the horrendous recoil attributed to the heavy English doubles, some of the new generation of clients were possibly more apprehensive of the rifles they were about to use, than they were of the animal on which they would be using them. This situation did not contribute to accurate shooting and resulted in many missed shots, wounded animals and “messy” followups. I personally saw an elephant run off after having been cleanly missed by both barrels at less than 40 yards...

..This time of transition served its purpose however, because as time went by, clients, encouraged in many cases by the professional hunter, began using the .375 H&H Mag. instead of the heavy doubles on the “big three.” The change proved most rewarding, as more accurate placement of bullets resulted in cleaner kills and less time wasted, not to mention the danger involved in following up on wounded animals. In this era, the .375 H&H Mag. was confirming its status as a very effective dangerous game cartridge. [endquote]

Although Hemingway presented himself to be a tough manly type Alpha male,
he did choose to use his low recoil .3o/o6 Springfield over his biGbore double, to take Leopard,Lion,Buff and Rhino.

Ruark who became a 'one Safari wonder' when attempting to emulate Hemingway,
travelled to Africa to hunt with the tracker Hemingway used {who just happened to be working for Selby}
Ruark had with him a 30/06, M70 .375 and bigBore SxS.

Ruark use his .375 for Lion and the bigbore double for larger DG.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Let me know where you can practice elephant charges.

What is better for preparedness do you think? Facing a couple of elephant charges OR learning the right shooting techniques and putting hundreds of rounds downrange in various positions?

IMO - there is a lot to be said for the proper shooting training. Under pressure the shooter reverts to their default and that's where a lot of shooters will go to pieces if they haven't practiced.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

This is not what happens in the field... the hunter/shooter who turns to shit is the one who hasnt practiced proper technique - and practiced a LOT.

I've heard this line of crap repeatedly over the years. It is quite meaningless when the shit hits the fan.

There are those on AR that have proven it, but only one or two ever had the balls to admit it.

OK Will - one of us is out there training this stuff in the field.

Will

I have never pulled the front trigger twice.

I have done what Matt said, practised, practised
and practised till my muscle memory or as Matt says - the default - is down pat.

I can go 6 months without firing a shot, get on a plane, pick up my gun or the Bolt I use up there, do a few minutes of closed eye refresher and off we go. I feel comfortable doing this,
both with the gun and my capability and have proven it because my first shots are normally right on target - heart shots.

Practice sure helps,

WDM Bell regularly practiced dry firing his rifles during his career of slaying buffalo and pachyderms.

One can train a whole heap of soldiers in bootcamp to shoot targets and bayonet a dummy,..till they become rather proficient at it,
...its not until they face situations in the actual battlefield that one really discovers whether they all have the nerve to proficiently perform a task for real.

the two NYPD special anti-terrorist trained officers guarding the Empire state building, fired 16 shots between the two of them,
hiting a perpetrator 7 times...and hiting 9 innocent civilians with the other 9 shots.....

By now I should know better than to offer up a different opinion. So many of the posts are considered gospel where differing opinions are not welcomed!

Let's see. Maybe someone can show, again, that extractors are much faster than ejectors. That's always good for a few laughs. There is a whole list of incorrect myths proven to be facts on AR.

Makes for interesting observations of human nature.

Will

I always welcome your opinions, even if I do disagree with them sometimes.

All good from my side.

The choice of a bolt or double is purely a personal preference and there are plenty of documented cases that illustrate the benefits of both. A trained shooter with either is impressive to watch.

As for me -- I am most familiar with a bolt gun

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

F.C. Selous eventually offloaded his double rifles and ordered/purchased a series of single shots, including a .461-bore Modified Express rifle by Gibbs.

“... the more experience I had in shooting heavy animals like giraffe, buffalo, rhinoceros and hippopotami with the .450- bore rifle by Gibbs of Bristol, the more confidence I gained in its efficiency, till at last one day I tried it on elephant. On that day I killed six of these animals, under no means favourable conditions."

What eventually got Selous was not DG,...but a German sniper.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I won't use the word bravery unless you're risking yourself for someone else.

I guess that a PH who has to put his ass on the line to a clean up a clients mess on DG,and/or save his clients life,...is just doing his job.

Another type of professional however, could be issued a gallantry award, for risking his life to save a life.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

Talk about assumption! Will you seem to be of the opinion that many people here even though having been shooting big bore double rifles for many years (in my case 55 years),have only shot those rifles at paper targets, and/or still prone to pull the same
trigger twice on a double trigger double rifle.

On top of that I can't remember anyone saying extractors were faster than ejectors! I have heard, and have said that extractors are quieter than ejectors.

Will nobody should deny you an opposing view on any subject you deem you must defend. Here we are stating the results of many timed contests that have found the experienced double rifle shooter, can fire four shots faster than a proficient bolt rifle shooter. This is not a study of courage, or the lack there of, or if a shooter with any type rifle will stand his ground, or fumble a shot or a re-load or any other mistake. What we are discussing is mechanical ability of the double rifle system is capable, if properly worked, to be faster than a bolt rifle. Facts and tests show that it is.

Will I say use what you want, and state what ever opinion you want, and I'll do the same!

....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It seems no matter how good the quality of the bolt rifles is, if the shooter is rushed it seems to exacerbate the number of jams or failure to feed. As your friend found he had to slow down to assure flawless feeding with both rifles and both are quality rifles.

Using a properly tuned bigbore Bolt rifle and pre-tested rounds, one should be able to cycle it fully back & forth, firmly and as rapid as possible[on a hunt],
- consistently without malfunction.

D'Arcy Echols Legend .458 Lott Rifle Feeding Flat Nose Solid Bullets ..

Agree Trax

That is why it is so important to run everything through a rifle before "going out".

When the shooting starts, one little hiccup
will throw you right out. If everything runs
smoothly, it a is amazing how many shots and reloads you can get off.

505,

to add; A bigbore bolt rifle that one has discovered jams/malfunctions or causes problems/delays during firm rapid cycle,
is not one that any sane/sensible person would or should willingly take on a DG hunt.

Hence, it is also not the bolt rifle one should sensibly use,
when attempting to compare the 'speeds' betwween a bolt rifle and SxS.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Eric said he had to slow down just a bit and be a little more deliberate to get all 4 rounds executed without incident as he was rushing early on, really slamming the bolt forward and back.

Yes, good point.

It would be interesting to know how many
stuff ups on bolt guns (as in hang ups / malfunctions) PH's have out in the bush with clients.

I have found having absolute confidence in
the gun you are using to be very much needed.

3 years ago I was using a gun that I didn't like (borrowed as we had to test some bullets in that calibre) and after a day I said I couldn't use it and went back to the old Brno 602.

I just wasn't confident that it would work 100% in a tight spot. The action was a bit "grabby" / sticky.