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Mike you are right Monty is fast and accurate with that 404Jef Mauser! He, however is not the average shooter of bolt rifles in this type of situation. He is the owner of the SAFARI SHOOTING SCHOOL, and as fast as he is Chris still beat him with a double for four shots in another film that is no longer on that same website. About twenty of the DRSS shooters were invited by Monty to spend a day at SAFARI SHOOTING SCHOOL, near by the 4K from our annual hunt at the Ranch, and Monty is absolutely as fast and accurate as anyone I have ever seen with a big bore bolt rifle, and still Chris beat him with a double rifle. Buz Charlton (spl?) is mighty fast with his Ruger 458 Lott for two very quick shots when it counts, but I have never seen him fire more than two in a row, he may be as fast for four shots as well. Monty has sense bought a double rifle, and is quick with it as well, but in the films below is still being beat by Chris with both shooting doubles. Monty being new to doubles when that film was made, may now beat his own time with the double over his shooting with the 404Jef. That has been a couple of years ago, and Knowing Monty he has fired some rounds down range with that double perfecting his technique. Monty's school is a good place for polishing even the experienced's technique. ...........................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I don't know Monte, but I had seen that video previously. Couldn't remember where. Thanks for posting it Mike. Monte is extremely fast with that 404J. Timing his shots and mine, using the first shot's report to the 4th's shot report, he beat me by a little over a second in the two videos. He was accurate as well!! I'd like to shoot against him sometime. | |||
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Todd here is his website! For anyone interested in his school. www.safarishootingschool.com Email monty@safarishootingschool.com ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Todd, firstly a previous statement by you:
you clearly tell us Eric was slamming the bolt forward and back -fully against the bolt stop I logically presume? [..thats just how I interpret 'slamming forward & back' to mean...] If thats not the case, then what is one slamming the bolt up against? So, that sure sounds like Eric was putting the bolt through its full and proper CRF motions,..and NOT short stroking. now, If your AHR.416 boltRifle is supposedly as close to 100% as one can get, then why did Eric have to ease up on how fast & firm he slammed the bolt? Have you also been required to ease up on how fast & firm you slam the bolt back & forth on your AHR .416, ..in order for it to be reliable, Or have you yourself rapidly slammed it forward & back many times, without incident? Do you believe that you could have fired 4 rounds from your AHR.416, in shorter time than Eric did? I wonder if an Echols heavy sporter comes with the implicit instructions; 'CAUTION: do not to work the bolt too fast & firm through its proper motions[no slamming] when facing imminent death on a close range DG charge.' If I had someone build me [or hand me] a DG boltrifle that knowingly required me to 'baby' it[slow it down] through its full & proper CRF motions, ..I would not consider that a legitimate rifle to use on a DG hunt or time trial test/comparison. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: Trax you and I are saying the same thing, No, you were clearly imagining words & things, that I never said or meant. I believe you simply will not give enough credit to the fact that most bolt rifle shooters will screw up when rushed, no matter how well the rifle is prepped. Most rushed boltrifle shooters will screw up?...thats debatable, also lets be clear,..you are now referring to the lack of proficiency of the actual person, rather than how reliable a well prepped & properly operated, boltRifle can be. It just seems you simply want to make any excuse to deny the fact that a bolt rifle exhibits more chances for a malfunction than a double rifle, with equally proficient shooters. We could have two PHs that are equally as proficient[say as Selby] but each with their separate choice of weapon[one a boltRifle,the other a SxS] and both could have a 50yr PH career, without failure of their respective weapons to function properly during proper use. We all know of a PH that has used a boltrifle for 50+ full seasons without failure on the firearms part, can you indicate a modern era proficient PH that has used a SxS for 50+ full seasons, with a track record the same? Be reminded, that Selby praised the Rigby .416 mauser for its reliability, and attributed that firearms reliability, as being a major contributor to his lengthy & great success as a PH. "Over the years as a Professional Hunter I carried the .416 from the Sudan in the North to Botswana in the South. There have been some rather tricky situations, and it was largely due to the qualities of the Rigby rifle and the performance of the 416 cartridge that everyone involved came through unscathed." -H.Selby That being said, back to the main point of this thread,... Lets be reminded that the main point of this thread was for Todd to share the personal fun & entertainment he had doing the video, that particular comparison was not meant to be taken seriously. but none the less I will still address your statement that followed; The best bolt rifle made opens it's self to malfunction several times while getting four shots off in quick fashion, allowing operator error. A double rifle presents far fewer openings to the idiot factor. you seem to be suggesting that a hunter who lacks proficiency would be better off with a SxS because they are apparently more idiot proof. [an 'idiot' can short-stroke a bolt, and an 'idiot' can fumble & fail to rapidly get the next two rounds in a SxS] suggesting that a lower proficiency shooter is better off with a SxS, is similar to the mindset of some that have suggested that; those who cannot manage good bullet placement, should use a larger bore, because it allows for more margin of shooter error. I would simply suggest that a person discover which suites them best, Bolt or SxS, and then dedicate themselves to becoming proficient at using it. I would not be bothered about whether any of my hunting party or PH had Boltrifles or a SxS, my main concern is how good they each are with their choice, and that the firearms are well prepped and in fine working order. | |||
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Would still like to see a Blaser R93/R8 in comparison as short stroking or jamming wouldn't be such an issue.. Good shooting with that Double though. Can't see an average guy with a normal Bolt Gun beat it. "A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact." | |||
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Deon, I think a Blaser R8 would be tough to beat in this comparison. In the same way a lever gun would be tough to beat. Trax, Yes, I routinely have slammed that bolt back and forward with the rifle you see in the video. I've not jammed it. Evidently, Wayne at AHR didn't either because he returned it to me after doing some extensive work on the rifle. Wayne put it through its paces. I've put it through its paces and am confident with it. I'd say it's about as close to 100% as you can get. It feeds flat nosed solids 100% so far in my experience. Eric had an issue with it on the first run, the one you haven't seen. I'd have to review the tape to determine if he short stroked it, or jammed it, or just mishandled the bolt, or whatever. I just know he fired three rounds to my 4. Something happened and he said to me "I found that by slowing down just a bit, I got the 4 rounds fired quicker". I can say the same about the double. If I rushed faster than what you see in the video, I botched the reload. Just a tad slower but smoother is always faster than 100% full speed which almost always means rushing and making little mistakes. You are reading WWWWAAAAAYYYYY more into this than there really is. But, until you do this little experiment for yourself, standing next to another guy who is banging away with his rifle, you trying your best to outshoot him, and the very little bit of adrenaline that creates, you really can't speak to how you'll operate the bolt, or the double for that matter. A little pressure makes a lot of difference. Regardless of how many times you cut and paste references to Selby or Bell or ... | |||
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TRAXX, without all the minutia and thousands of words in print WE are simply saying the same thing using different words. All along my thing has been that the operator error is the biggest cause of a malfunction in the use of any type rifle, no matter the type. Starting with a push feed bolt rifle, offering the most chance of an operator error simply because of the design, of not having control of the round coming out of the magazine till it is chambered ad the bolt handle turned down. The CRF bolt being next and much less prone to operator error, again because of a better design with more control of the cartridge, but under pressure still prone to operator error because the amount of times it must be worked. Then you have the double rifle which has less actual things to do to get four shots off, but still can be screwed up by a rushed shooter , but less than the first two types. Traxx anyone who thinks he can’t cause an operator error when being charged by an animal that intends killing him if it is not stopped, is a fool, no matter what rifle he is using. However choosing the machine that has more hedges against his mistakes is just plain SMART! As some one said above, I’m quite good with a CRF bolt rifle myself , having about 20 years more experience with a bolt action, but having 55 years experience with double rifles and bolt rifles simultaneously till today! I find the double rifle to be more reliable when it counts. This is my last post on this thread. Anything else we will simply have to agree to disagree! I don’t think we are disagreeing, just not saying the same thing in different ways. ………………………………..Over and out!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Thanks for participating Mac. I think it's been a good thread. If for nothing else, just to put a little practicality to one of the very often debated campfire discussions. As I said in the video, we weren't trying to settle "The age old argument of whether a bolt or double rifle is better", just trying to add some food for thought. On that, I think Eric and I succeeded! I appreciate all that joined in. Well, maybe except for the one poster who never has anything "positive" to contribute to anything on the forum!  And no, I'm not referring to Shootaway!! | |||
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Just my view, you and Eric succeeded in showing a guy that knows his DR (that is fitted to him) is better than a guy who uses another guy's rifle that does not "fit" him nor is he familier with.... | |||
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I suppose we should have just not bothered then, eh? Geesshhh!  How would you explain then the fact that I beat Eric when he was using HIS rifle that IS fitted to him that he IS familiar with? I suppose nothing short of posting that run also will suffice. But it will not end the excuses, of that I'm certain. That's the main reason I keep asking others to go out and film the same test. Regardless of what you do, regardless of what effort you go to in an attempt to get a good, equal test, everything you can think of at the time to eliminate all the spoilers, it won't matter. The naysayers will throw peanuts from the gallery without stepping into the ring themselves and putting forth an effort. Again, I had promised here on AR to make this video way back when I posted that thread of speed shooting the Merkel 500NE with extractors. Guys challenged me back then to shoot against a bolt shooter. From the beginning, Eric, with his custom 416 Rigby was the guy I thought best to run that test against. Why? Well because he is an experienced big bore shooter who owns a high end big bore rifle, has made several trips to Africa where he hunted DG. To shoot against a guy only experienced with a 30/06 would have been an obvious spoiler. At this point, I kind of wish I had thought this through a bit more because I think the only thing we've done here is trash Eric's reputation. He is a lurker here on AR, but has never posted. I doubt he will at this point. I'll say this again in his defense, if you time his shots from the first report of the rifle to the report of his 4th shot, he is shooting that rifle pretty fast. Not that Shootaway is any great rifleman, but at least he put up a video. Eric beat the shit out of George in every sequence he posted. Once more, this video doesn't reflect the way a double rifle would be used in a charge situation. For that, watch one of Mark Sullivan's DVDs where he waits for the appropriate time to shoot up close, and saves the second barrel for a back up if needed. Say what you will about Mark, but he is a master at stopping charges with a double rifle. But it does show that there are fewer steps necessary to fire 4 shots in a double rifle than there are in firing a bolt rifle. Take the speed factor out of the equation and just watch the mechanical manipulation of the two rifles by the two shooters. Which one is more active and performing the greater number of moves. The fact is that a double rifle is simpler to operate than a bolt gun. I've said all along that I don't understand the comments about learning proficiency with a double. It's the simplest design in terms of operation. Pull one trigger, then the other, break it open, reload, close it and repeat. Go back and read Macs posts on how many steps there are in operating a bolt gun for 4 shots. There simply is more opportunity to screw it up with a bolt gun. That is something Eric and I proved on every run at this test we made. | |||
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You are entitled to your opinion jjs, and all I can tell you is, get your big bore bolt rifle. on the range, burn some powder, put some bullets down range. Then check the time, and score the target and see if your opinion holds up! You don't have to shoot against me, just beat my time and score of 4 seconds flat for four shots, and score at least 37(I scored 36) points of a possible 40 points if all hit the X-ring on the 8 inch black target with a 2 inch white X-ring @ 25 yds. Then talk! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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With all due respect, you have totally missed the point of my post. I will says this as nicely as I can...I having nothing to prove to you and likewise you have nothing to prove to me. Best, jjs | |||
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Todd, I think your post and the idea were great. It has great value for the average guy and particularly those like me who want to learn. A BIG thank you Sir! I know what I will be doing now. I'll develop my loads for my 416 Rigby. I will shoot rapid fire at 25 & 50 meters and get my son or my mate Grant to time them. My boy will also video them (He actually did that on his cell phone the first time I tried out the gun). I will then have a record of the accuracy and the time taken to reload & fire. I'll just keep doing it again and again. One day I am sure I'll get pretty good at it. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Finally! Someone who gets the idea of this exercise! This film and all the favorable posts were intended to offer information to those who simply do not know, nothing more. Facts are what counts here not opinion! When facing a pissed-off lion at close quarters, opinion is worthless! As I have said many times prior, The fact is, in the very close-in charge the most valuable three factors are Speed, accuracy and proper manipulation of what ever rifle you choose to use. In that light, the two things ask the question, what type of firearm is the fastest with the least amount of features that allow mistakes in the manipulation for four shots? It was thought, early on, that the double rifle shooter was at a disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooter holding four rounds. They then wanted to restrict the students with bolts to two rounds, so the scores for all students would reflect the same expertise. This was found to not be the case, so the four shot contest was then used with the bolt rifle loaded with one in the chamber, and three down, and the double with both barrels loaded, with a two round re-load in the middle of the timed charge shoot. The finding was that the double rifle shooters were at no disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooter in a close quarters encounter having to fire four shots very quickly and still hit a target with no operator caused malfunctions in the rifles. In that vain, we tried to break it down for you. Of course if anyone's choice of rifle type comes in as the lesser of the types in the choices there will always be those who simply cannot accept the outcome, and the excuses start. That is unfortunate because the point of the exercise is lost to a donnybrook that does nobody any good. The findings are; Not only from only Todd's two film clips, but by the timed shoot-outs by the DRSS at Juliff, TX but by the Big Bore Shooters club of OZ, and the PH licensing bodies of several African countries. For use on African dangerous game the two main legal types are bolt action, and double rifles. (Simi-autos being illegal, and single shots not being a very good choice for a close-in charge) Starting with the least reliable in avoiding operator caused malfunction. No1 push feed bolt rifles: Most likely to be jammed when rushed No2 control feed bolt rifle; less likely to cause a jam when rushed, but more likely than the double rifle No3 hammerless double rifles; Least likely to cause a jam or malfunction! All could be relied on to be accurate if no malfunction was experienced. Those are the findings but that does not say any of the three should not be used if that is what you chose as long as you know the above findings. .......................................................................................... BYE!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Thats kind of hard to do when the thread is actually titled in the context of 'A speed shooting competition'
Todd, it sounds you are personally familiar & well attuned to your AHR.416 - as you are to your SxS, I also dont hear you saying that you have to slow down and baby your AHR .416 during use, - like Eric found he had to, so then can we say with fair & reasonable confidence,..that your times with your AHR .416 would be quicker than Erics?? [and most/more likely to be incident free] | |||
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In a very close-in DG charge, most folk would like to keep their eye on the ball, Having to take ones eyes off the quarry {and SxS rifle off the shoulder}to look down and reload,then re-aquire the charging DG target, requires people to learn some level of proficiency at such a process.
If two guys were standing side by side trying to stop an imminent DG charge, they are not there to compete against each other in a friendly speed competition, ...like Mark Sullivan they would be waiting for the right time & opportunity to place their shots , not just repeatedly fire as quick as they can.
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Speed seems to be the most important factor in 'a speed shooting competition' titled video thread, - shooting static paper tigers. However in real life DG charges, folks can be quickly reloaded and still waiting for the right opportunity to place the shot[s] In other words, pure speed alone is not the only thing to primarily consider, or measure things by, unless of course its purely in the context of this friendly static paper target time trial/competition shoot. | |||
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Traxx, I understand this was not addressed to me, but I must say it is not necessary to take your eyes off the target, and/or drop the double rifle from your shoulder to re-load! ....................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Get on out to the range with the 416 Todd... do you need any excuses?  A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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In your estimate, what percentage of PHs and experience hunters [with SxS], keep their eyes on the charging DG and keep the SxS at their shoulder, all whilst reloading? | |||
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Trax, I'm sorry but this is my last response to you on this thread. I simply do not understand what the point is you are trying to make. You quote me several times out of context. Your responses to those out of context quotes are contradictory to yourself. On one hand you attempt to counter what I said, and since you quoted me out of context, the next quotation of my statements actually makes the exact point you were trying to make. Are you agreeing or countering? I honestly don't know!! Sorry to be rude to you but the way you copy and paste what others have said, often citing such historical figures as Selby, Bell, Taylor, and the like, but never offering your own personal experiences, simply doesn't lend much reason to consider your posts as being of substance. Then taking bits and pieces of posters comments out of context, contradicting yourself in the rebuttals (not necessarily within the same rebuttal but often from one rebuttal to the next), singling out a small aside on one hand, then in the very next post stating that you are incapable of singling out an aside for the purposes of a more in depth discussion as additional concepts are raised, due to the title of the thread, just leaves people confused as to your motivations, intentions, and general grasp of the concepts being put forth. I'm glad to debate anyone at anytime where a good, clearly presented, civilly represented opposing opinion is presented. I only object to cheap shots and insults. But I'm done carrying on this discussion with you because I'm no longer clear about what position you are trying to present. I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing; nothing more!! Seems that you and I have been down this road before where you lose focus on your train of thought and simply respond for the sake of responding, offering individual counter arguments that end up countering your own positions. With that I must sign off with you! Maybe someone else will pick up the baton. | |||
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Todd its rather simple, I agree that you were faster than Eric with a bolt rifle. I agree with you that the video doesn't reflect the way a double rifle would be used in a charge situation. [Re: your reference to Mark Sullivan waiting for the right moment to fire, rather than just firing off on DG as rapid as possible, makes complete sense!] I disagree with some people, that the video is enough to conclude that a SxS is better and more advantageous, for all people. [unfortunately some people will drawing just such a conclusion from your video] it appears the SxS, in a friendly paper-tiger shooting time trial, is superior due to its speed, but not necessarily in all real life DG charge situations. I know you dont like me quoting Selby, but I wont ignore the knowledge & stacked empirical evidence he shares, after 55 full seasons as a PH. Be it complete greenhorn or experienced PH or hunters of today, all can learn and become more knowledgable and informed from Harry. Very few will ever have the rare advantage of having so much extended exposure/experience of the African hunting fields. | |||
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TRAX: You quote Selby and he is just one person who had his opinion - Bell for example also favored a bolt over a double when conditions were right for the first shot but if things went up shit creek he relied more on a double to finish the job. | |||
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Hey Matt. Yeah, I suppose I'll have to do that eventually. But I don't want to get into a endless circle of responding to challenge after challenge. Reason being that whatever get's posted will be picked apart and further challenges will be made. Exactly what happened here. More on that in just a minute. I posted that extractor gun speed shooting video and was challenged to shoot against a bolt guy. Now that has been done, the bolt guy wasn't good enough and other excuses. And so on and so on. But I'll say here and now, that I haven't, and don't practice with the bolt guns on the same level that I practice with the doubles. Anytime I take the Rigby out to the range, I usually speed shoot 2 magazines full of rounds for accuracy. But I really don't take that rifle out that often and if I were to post a video of me shooting 4 rounds in 12 seconds or so, that isn't a good indication of what the rifle is capable of doing in the hands of someone more practiced. Again, that's why I chose Eric for the demo. He's a big bore guy. That Lon Paul 416 of his is a very expensive rifle that he had a large amount of input in. He shoots it often. Previously, he owned an early 1920's original Rigby 416. He's a big bore guy and although he has owned a few double guns, he's more current with big bore bolt guns. I really think he did pretty well. He's not nearly as fast as Monte in the Heym video, but then how many guys are? I did find the "bolt gun excuses" to be creative however. And again, no matter what is filmed and presented, whatever gun type looses the match, that rifle type's supporters will find excuses to counter the results. Want an example? You'll get a kick out of this. Now knowing I'm a double guy, I'll give you some excuses for Monte's video and why he is so much faster than Eric! OK, firstly, he's shooting a 404 Jefferey. A standard length action whereas Eric is shooting a 416 Rigby, a magnum length action. Why is that a big deal, well just look at all the hoopla over the WSM, and such. The experts all say a shorter length action is easier and faster to manipulate. So if that's a valid argument making the 485 WM easier to operate under stress than a 458 Lott, or a 308 over a 30/06, or a 375 Ruger over a 375 H&H, etc., it has to work for Eric's 416 Rigby vs Monte's 404J, doesn't it? The next excuse would be that although Monte's target is moving, it is getting significantly closer with each shot. Hell the last shot didn't take any time whatsoever in terms of aiming for accuracy as he simply pointed the barrel at the target and shot it from about 6 inches away. Certainly quicker to get a bullseye at 6" to 12" in that case than Eric having to aim at 30 yards each time to ensure a good hit! To me, those excuses are just as ridiculous as the other excuses given for Eric's performance. But it goes to show that no matter what you film and present, someone with a counter position can and will raise excuses and objections. You simply cannot address all the excuses and contingencies. So, from that standpoint, I think I'd prefer someone else to conduct, video, and post the next progression of this campfire debate!  | |||
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Todd, I remember you telling me how skilled Travolta was at piloting his big-jET, Yet Travolta still chooses to have not just a previous Boeing captain beside him, but rather a specially chosen immensely experienced and capable Boeing test pilot, beside him. Clearly he feels that having someone of such experience & exposure to flying, offering advice or guidance, really means something. ..I gather you yourself listened to what your highly experienced instructors had to say, when you were trained to fly F-18 Hornets off the carrier deck? I view Selby in the same way. ..and Im sure If Selby was still in his PH prime today, folks would still want to eagerly hunt DG with him, and they would not at all be worried that Harry still carried his trusty-reliable .416 boltRifle | |||
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TRAX: Selby was without a doubt a highly reputable PH though there were many others in his same class and some even in a class or two higher. I don't suppose any of the others are worth shit because they are unheard of or unspoken about simply because they didn't write a book or never featured in any hunting film. The pros and cons between bolt and double: 1. The double has 2 almost simultaneous shots and can be reloaded pretty quick and fired again (accurately) before the third shot is fired from a bolt, though there are mixed opinions on this proven theory but to each their own. 2. For a double to pose mechanical problems one would have to be extremely but extremely unlucky and should that ever happen, blame it on Murphy!. 3). Have you ever given any thought to the other 3 or 4 rounds which are sitting in the magazine when that rifle is being fired - have you ever looked at the last and second last rounds prior to firing? I am referring to 375 + calibers. Those last 2 rounds are the ones most likely to turn your world upside down when it matters most. | |||
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Traxx, I see a great many clients doing a lot of wrong things in the field, and I'm sure the percentage of clients making mistakes are high with most PHs. That however doesn't alter the fact that there is a proper way to do anything, but people will be individuals and do things their way. Some will be very quick and accurate, and some will fire the first shot then stand there not even re-chambering their bolt rifle, or fire both shots from their double and stand without re-loading it. How many times have you watched a film and when the follow-up to the downed buffalo or ele is approached, and the client is told to put in an insurance shot, and he tries it with an empty chamber because he hasn't even worked the bolt to chamber another round. Not to mention not replacing the one he fired? These things are common no matter the rifle system the client is carrying. The fact is simply because clients do these things, is no reason to question those who know how to do it right, and do so! I will say that most folks who have any experience at all with a double rifle take the time to learn proper handling. Most make the change from years of experience with bolt rifles to the double and there is a steep learning curve involved because the two systems must be used is far different ways, to be handled PORPERLY, and nobody learns it over night. I find the guy who starts with the double rifle early in his hunting career the change from bolt to double is far easier. IMO, the guy who has the most problem is the long time bolt guy, who starts with preconceived ideas of how to use the double. In other words thinks he already knows it all, and tries to apply bolt rifle knowledge to the double and that simply doesn't work. All the above is part and parcel of why we do these exercises, and post the answers to so many questions here on AR and other places on the internet. It is just that there is a tendency for some one who has used a very different system to argue with being thought something that seem wrong to them because it doesn’t fit their experience with an entirely different system. Sort of the student arguing with the teacher about a subject he doesn’t understand! In that case nothing is learned. PS: Selby proved nothing except he liked bolt rifles better than a double. He is one of the guys who tried to use bolt rifle technique with a double rifle in his hands. He simply chose the bolt because he could use it better than he could a double rifle, nothing more! ........................................................................ ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac37, a long response by you , but no answer to my question. so once again, in reference to your earlier statement;
- In your estimate, what percentage of PHs and experienced hunters [with SxS], keep their eyes on the charging DG and keep the SxS at their shoulder, all whilst reloading?
actually there is more to it. That .416 Rigby boltrifle played a big part in establishing his long successful career & reputation as a PH. It was reliable enough & fast enough, to cover Harrys butt and that of his clients,.. for many decades. That Rigby .416 boltRifle proved no less reliable than a SxS, across some 50 full seasons of PH duties. FACT, not opinion. We can enjoy watching Todds 'speed shooting competition'of SxS vs boltrifle, at static paper tiger targets, and yes we did discover that a SxS can have certain time advantage under such personal competion orientated circumstance. However, in the realms of real life DG hunting,..'getting off 4 accurate shots in the shortest possible time', is not necessarily desirable or appropriate.... and watching Mark Sullivan video, demonstrates just that. I see that MS has ample time/oportunity to fire off his barrels at close range and reload, but instead he uses[wastes?] that time waiting for the animal to get even closer. Why does MS not take advantage of the superior reload & fire speed of the SxS? By all means view Todds video as a pure personal competition time trial of SxS vs Bolt,on static paper tigers, but it should not be used/heavily relied on, to try and prove or determine that the speed of a SxS, somehow makes it totally superior to a bolt rifle when hunting DG. If people read Todds statements from earlier on, one can see that I am somewhat agreeing with Todd, ie; that his speed trial video is not necessarily applicable to real life DG encounters/situations.
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Think what ever you want Trax I'm through with you! ........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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      I could post all the bloddy emoticons and still feel inadequate! To stay on topic - may be we need a new thread of just video clips of people shooting bolt & DR big bores - timed! If we had 10 video clips from differnt people, and no opinions, then it would be great information for the rest of us to just watch, contemplate and come to our own conclusion based on our specific circumstances! Please excuse the rant. I tried to stay on topic - I honestly did! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Which rifles/actions were used in the bolt guns that proved to be so troublesome & unreliable? There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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I shoot a 500 Jeffery and I can attest to the fact that the rounds in the magazine will get "shorter" unless you put a serious crimp on them. At Dave Bush's suggestion, I bought a Lee Factory Crimp Die and that has completely solved the problem for me at least up to a 570g bullet at 2410 fps (fastest I've tested the crimp holding up with 3 rounds in the magazine firing all but the last round). As for the speed and reliability of double vs bolt I'll leave that to the far more experienced members ...  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I had pretty much finished with this thread but was alerted to a situation that I think I should offer some clarification on. Firstly, let me say again, this video was not intended to settle any definitive arguments, promote any products, or discredit any person or product. It was simply two buddies who enjoy shooting big bore rifles, at the range together, and having a bit of fun with a friendly little shooting competition. That's all. Nothing more. Some have read way more into it than that. Neither Eric nor I are shooting / hunting industry professionals. We are just a couple of regular guys. When Eric and I did the first two runs, with his custom rifle, I turned to him in the video intro and asked him to describe his rifle. In doing so, he mentioned Lon Paul "did the metal work". From that, I commented here that his rifle is a Lon Paul rifle. As it turns out, I spoke out of turn on that as it appears that Mr. Paul only did the blueing on the gun, not the action work. I misunderstood. That is my fault and I apologize to all as I certainly don't want to misrepresent a quality custom gun maker. The fact is that Eric's rifle is a true work of art, and a "fine" gun. It is certainly a rifle to be coveted. Prior to our competition, Eric handed the rifle to me with 4 loaded rounds. I fired all 4 rounds as quickly as I could operate the action. It feed like butter. No problems. But, there was no adrenaline going. Once he and I squared off and fired the first 4 rounds against each other, when we were taping over the holes in the targets, we both noticed our hands shaking from a little bit of adrenaline, due to our mutual competitive nature. On that first run, Eric's gun spit a round on the ground, and I fumbled the reload just a bit. We were both going too fast and as a result, both of us had less than optimum results. I don't believe there was anything "wrong" with Eric's gun and there is nothing "wrong" with mine. As I mentioned several times already in this thread, we both realized, slowing down 1% and operating just a bit more smoothly, was the way to go inorder to actually speed up the end result. I've heard this same theory applied to competitive runners and swimmers. To relax just a bit and concentrate on smoothness, and you'll cross the finish line faster. So to Mr. Paul, I apologize for mislabeling the make on the rifle as I misunderstood Eric when he said you "did the metal work". Completely my fault and I hope I haven't caused any ill feelings. Eric's rifle, of which I haven't posted any video, as the rifle you see in the clip is my CZ, is a true work of art. I can't really say 100% that it needs a bit of fine tuning. Maybe, maybe not. I do believe that anyone, under the right circumstances, can cause a mechanical issue with either action type, and a little extra adrenaline is all that is needed to do so. | |||
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Todd, Thanks for stepping up and clarifying this. I know Lon appreciates it as do I. Lon builds a high quality rifle and the implication as I read it was that Eric's Lon Paul rifle malfunctioned but in reality it was not a Lon Paul rifle. THX Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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The problem with the internet is that someone can - and probably will - grab the excerpt from the original post and use it completely out of context. But thanks for trying to clear it up. Lon is one of the few makers who builds rifles for PH's and he takes pride in how well his rifles feed. But as this entire dust-up has shown, not all users are equal in their abilities to operate a rifle under stress. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil, Your absolutely correct and that was my fear when I read Todd's post. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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But you know Mark, the only reason Eric's rifle was even discussed, was because of the bolt gun excuse makers. Looking for any and all ways to defend the bolt gun's performance, how many guys stated the results would have been different had Eric been using a gun he was more familiar with? Well, that's what he started with and it didn't work out any differently. A high grade custom 416 Rigby that he knows and is familiar with. There really wasn't an intended "implication" that Eric's "Lon Paul" rifle was anything other than the fine rifle it is. In fact, the implication was just the opposite; in that Eric attempted this demo with a very good rifle that he IS familiar with, and even so, demonstrated that issues can appear under the right circumstances, even with a very high quality rifle. Then they started in on Eric. But he is an experienced big bore shooter and I'd put him up against the vast majority on this forum. I don't care who made the rifles and how finely tuned they are. They are mechanical, man made items, and capable of malfunction if operated incorrectly. And I don't care who the operator is, under the right circumstances, anyone is capable of manipulating an action incorrectly. Again, guys read WWWAAAYYY more into this video than was intended. Phil refers to it as a "Dust Up". I got a call today from a friend stating Mr. Paul was upset over having his name mentioned in this thread. But I also stated that VC and Ken Buch made and sold me the double. Did I not state that I fumbled the reload on the first try, and on a subsequent run, my hand got in the way and the right chamber didn't eject, causing me to have to pick the brass out by hand, still beating the bolt gun. VC and Ken didn't get upset about my mishandling the reload and I didn't see any double gun excuse givers stating a better shooter was required. Etc., etc.. Go back and show me where I said anything other than this was a friendly competition and that no other conclusions should be drawn from it! Again, I can't tell you how many times I've heard the discussion of how a double gun would compare with a bolt gun over 4 shots in terms of timed shooting. It's a common discussion. Without much effort, I could link to 20 or more references to the exact discussion right here on AR. All we did was try and put some practicality into the discussion and give it some frame of reference that others can easily reproduce, with or without a camera! And when the bolt gun spit a round on the ground in the first run, my initial thought was that is very much in line with what one sees in the Zim PH proficiency test reports. When it jammed on the second try, I thought the same thing. I could have just called it a day and posted the video of either of those demos if I were the type who has an axe to grind or push an agenda. However, I thought we should do our best to have as clean a run at it as possible in an attempt to be fair and reduce the numbers of excuses that would be inevitable. I suggested we try my rifle only because I, not Eric, but I know that rifle very well and I've not had a jam with it since receiving it back from AHR. Now, for all the excuses given concerning the bolt gun and discussion of jams and cartridges spit on the ground, the video that was presented here shows NONE of that. The only thing I presented in terms of a video, something you can watch with your own eyes and make up your own mind, is a double rifle and bolt rifle, side by side, shooting 4 rounds cleanly, with the double rifle getting all four rounds downrange faster. There are no jams or cartridges spitting on the ground shown. None. Just four cleanly shot and reloaded rounds by both rifles. The only reason the number of attempts and some of the issues we experienced were mentioned was in an attempt to demonstrate that we went out of our way to not skew the results in either direction. HA! A lot of good that did, eh? I've had numerous PM's and emails over this video asking why I continue to post video clips of this nature, the 500 Merkel being reloaded with extractors, the elephant hunts showing proper use of a double in the field, etc. Each time I post a video at the range, I'm questioned on how it would really work in the field. Each time I post a video in the field, I'm questioned on how it would really work at the range. Damn, but this is a tough crowd! I know I enjoy well produced videos of other guys hunts or shooting. I can't remember feeling the need to tear apart or discredit anyone's video clip. That's something I don't understand. I post them for enjoyment of the members, nothing else. I suppose that's not the way everyone takes it however. I still think the vast majority on the forum enjoy the videos. But I'd be lying if I said I'm not starting to consider the "Dust Ups" to be more trouble than they're worth putting up with. I'm starting to see the logic in pulling back from participation, as so many others already have done. | |||
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Todd, I was just complimenting you for saying that you made a mistake and an unintentional one. It's very easy to say something you regret when you don't have all the information and that statement in turn can be harmful to others without you meaning it to be. Once again thanks for stepping up. I said earlier what my opinion was of the contest and that's just my opinion for what it's worth. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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