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I think you would be quite surprised how many. | |||
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However perfect the rifle might be; silky smooth action, no chance in hell of a mis-feed, with an unblemished problem-free record, just remember it is a man made item and always subject to Murphy's Law. If its got to happen - it will. | |||
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Todd, You were faster with the 1st and 3rd shots in the video, actually with all four shots when taken in sequence. I believe that I originally mentally normalized the shooting with 1st shots being simultaneous which would have given Eric the 3rd shot just slightly faster than your 3rd shot rather than Eric actually being slightly slower in the video. With your true firing sequence you've definitely established a four shot sequence for bolt gun guys to work towards - not only was it a fast smooth 4 shot sequence but you delivered 4 very accurately placed shots as well. Thanks to you and Eric for your efforts!  Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thanks Jim. We hoped guys would enjoy the video for it's entertainment value. Again, I would like to see some other's run the same test. There are quite a few videos on the internet with guys shooting doubles or bolt guns for speed and accuracy. But try as I might, I couldn't find a video with a bolt and double shooter in the same frame, going all out to beat the other. With as much as we all debate this topic, one would think there would be more video demos of the subject. | |||
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Trax, there in lies the rub! Pressure causes all sorts of things to not be done firmly and properly, and the more moves made quickly with action open the more chance of something going awry. Short stroking failing to pick up the next round, failure to fully chamber, and withdraw the bolt kicking the round on the ground with a CRF action, or trying to chamber another round in a push feed action, with one already in the loading port. That bolt is worked three times leaving the action open three time during the firing of the four shots. With the double the rifle is only open once for the four shot sequence. That is the only place where a fumble will cause a real problem. As Will says people make dumb mistakes when in a hurry, wile the shit is hitting the fan. The bolt rifle gives Mr. Murphy far more chances to slap you in the face. That is fact not opinion. On the range the pressure is trying to beat the guy standing beside you, shooting as well! Even this level of pressure causes mistakes, and the more openings offered by your rifle the more chance you will make a mistake. Both types of rifles being discussed are capable of very fast operation, but the nut behind the gun is more likely to make a mistake the more moves needed to fire the four shots. The more times the action is opened the more chances of a malfunction. ............................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Todd, nice shooting, but you weren't shooting against Finn Aagaard or Barry Duckworth or Richard Harland etc...  | |||
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No doubt! Unfortunately, they weren't available that day!  | |||
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Or should that read: "Fortunately for them"?  | |||
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Trying to determine which is faster for four shots a bolt or double rifle while an interesting discussion, really has little to do with performance in the field. How many times in your experience has a fourth shot 1/2 to 1 second faster made any differance? Thinking over a life time of experience, it seems that what happens in the field such as game movement, brush interference or animal position dictated how fast I could get a shot off rather than getting one off as rapidly as I am physically able to do. And before some one asks, yes, I have been charged by elephants a couple of times and a buff once. Also by a black bear. I never needed four shots to handle any of them. 465H&H | |||
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Funny man! | |||
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Very nice post and well thought out! I'm sure none of 100 or so hunters here even thought of those things that can ruin an encounter especially at very close quarters! The time may never come when 1 to 1 1/2 seconds faster will make the difference, but one time it may mean everything. I can assure you there are times when 1 to 1.5 of time can make ALL the difference. This thread is a study of two different types of stopping rifle, and given all the things you mention that can effect the outcome of an encounter, will effect both types equally. Since both types suffer the same field conditions, the only thing that sets them apart is which one is easiest get into action with the least chance of something malfunctioning. The choice is, for the guy who has the most faith in one over the other that is the one he should use. However make no mistake a jam or failure to feed will take a lot longer than 1, or 1 1/2 seconds to recover from. The only thing I'm saying is a rifle that is less likely to jam or fail to feed is the one I choose. To me it seems we are only discussing whether a man using a double rifle, is under a handicap to an equally efficient man using a bolt rifle for four shots. I simply maintain he is not handicapped, the man with the bolt is, Opinions Vary, the above is my opinion, worth exactly what the reader paid for it! ......................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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One this particular topic, I don't believe over-all speed is the answer, rather welled aimed shots. When you watch a real pro, with the double rifle, they take their first shot, placed as well as they can aim and then hold that other barrel and only use it if necessary, and only after taking the extra second or a few, to ensure that shot is also placed perfectly. Watch Mark Sullivan. Whatever else he is, the man is an expert with the double, in the "Crucible of Combat", as he puts it. I do not own a double. My buddy brought over his Merkel .470 the other night. I got a kick out of handling the rifle, but it's a foreigner to me. So different from bolt guns, which I primarily use. I fool around with levers a bit. I don't think I could ever be a double rifle guy. And I am damn sure, I cannot shoot my bolt guns as fast as that double demonstration by Todd. | |||
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Which explains why he only fired three shots on the grassy knoll, and not four. Sorry. I apologize to everyone in advance. I couldn't help myself. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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And stand there with only one shot in the gun? No thanks... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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So you're a magazine rifle guy too? There is a reason that culling agents pretty much always use a magazine rifle. And if you read the stories they have, the extra shots at your disposal are far better than a double. Ron Thomson. Richard Harland. Barry Duckworth. Those guys were all on elephant culling duty, and they all used magazine rifles. Doubles are great when hunting bull elephant at close range. And that second barrel should always be reserved for when the shit hits the fan. | |||
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I use both, more recently a double... but you miss my point. If you, as the hunter fire the first barrel from your double at a DG animal and stand there deciding if you need the second one... you are much better off firing both barrels into the animal and then reload quickly and then be standingg there with two loaded barrels ready to go, instead of just one - if the shit hits the fan. That is one of the reasons most double shooters practice their reload so much... if they are shooting DG in the thoracic area they are almost always going to reload at least once. Perhaps in the past people tried to save their ammo?? I would say there are plenty of reasons why those cullers did not use double rifles for their work. I am not sure that is one of them. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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^ I guess it depends on if you're hunting by yourself or with backup. If I've got backup, it's a different story, eh? I'd be much more likely to fire the second barrel, if I know I've got another gun covering me. On my own. Different. How the animal reacts to the first shot, makes a huge difference too. I tend to keep shooting until the critter stops moving. But it's primarily magazine rifles with 3-5 shots available. And I don't have the cash to hunt Africa. The stuff around here cannot be classified as dangerous game. | |||
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... and the double rifle is used in the same way... except you have twice as many barrels and the magazine is on your belt!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Demonical, I predict that if you take on something like cape buffalo and after the first shot not immediately popping him with that second barrel waiting to see the reaction, you are going to do a lot of follow-ups on wounded buffalo. The admiring of the first shot is one of the mistakes made most often by rooky hunters of dangerous game. One shot rarely will kill any large animal in Africa, and the proper drill is to fire on him, and keep firing till he is down or out of sight. If you first shot doesn’t hit the brain or spine on a buffalo he will not go down, and if he gets into the weeds you will likely be sitting in the hunting car while you PH must go in a sort him out. If that buffalo gets away, and can’t be found you must pay for him anyway, and the wounded bull may kill some innocent local before he dies. I think you need to re-think your strategy before you get in the bush with dangerous game. Not putting the animal down as quickly as you can is not fair to the animal, and needlessly putting people in some real danger. ....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Both quotes are correct for me. If it literally falls over, I might put a finisher in pretty quickly but if it is moving at all, I just keep firing, double or bolt action and if the gun is empty, I reload. I do make sure not to get caught close and empty if at all possible. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Where did I say I would take a single shot at a Cape Buffalo and stand there admiring it? I've got a .416RM, as well as a .458Lott. If I ever get to Africa, I will take both those rifles. The .458 only has iron sights. I had it at the range today. I can hit 'minute of buffalo', with open sights, with that rifle, at 100 yards. Did it today times 12 shots. The .416 is scoped, with a 1.75-6x scope. I'd be more inclined to carry that rifle for buffalo, but would have both along. I am no dummy. On an African safari, I know full well, there's at least one PH standing behind me, who is a certifiable expert with whatever rifle he's carrying, and I know he's got my back. If I get Ol' Syncerus Caffer in my sights, trust me I will not be standing around admiring my first shot. FWIW, I've watched a helluva lot of DVDs on cape buffalo, and unless you shoot like Saeed, I'm guessing you're just everybody, and you get to do followup and finishing shots on your buff'. Which is no knock on you. I've been watching the DVDs from Saeed's 2012 hunt in the Selous and that man can shoot. DRT should be added to his name. | |||
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Todd That kinda bugs me. I have made a similar statement many times, and each time I meant that: "a well placed 375 is better than a poorly placed 577 -and it goes without saying that the vast majority will be better able to place the shot correctly with a scoped 375 than with an iron sighted 577.... No one ever said that "no one" is proficient with a big bore. Food for thought: have you ever heard anyone mention "minute of buffalo" when talking about a scoped 375???? God I hope Lionhunter doesn't read this. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Mac, Rifle malfunction and operator error, I see as different things....[either/both however can put one in an equally dangerous situation!] A rifle that fails to feed & eject a round after the bolt is worked firmly & rapidly all way back & forth, is a malfunction of the machine. A hunter that short strokes the bolt on a perfectly functional DG boltrifle, is pure error-disfunction on the operators part. If a hunter in fear of 'short stroking', forms the habit of firmly & rapidly working the bolt all way back & forth, to confidently avoid short stroke syndrome, then he sensibly-rightfully should have a boltrifle that functions perfectly during such regular type treatment. Having to avoid rapid & firm cycling and 'baby'[slowdown?] the operation of a DG boltRifle to ensure it functions properly during full cycle, Tells me its not the rifle to take on a DG hunt or use in a time trial test against a SxS. The chance of hunter-operator error should not be compounded by using a firearm known to be mechanically disfunctional. One of things that Harry Selby says contributed to his long and succesful career as PH, is the fact that he carried a reliable boltRifle instead of a SxS... a boltRifle that never failed him in near 50 full seasons as a PH. [quote] "I very soon realized that this rifle and cartridge combination was for me far superior to any double.".... .... I have to say that this rifle never gave the slightest trouble, it did however, give the most satisfactory service anyone could ask for, it never let me down, ever!!" [endquote] I dont recall Selby ever saying that he felt handicapped by using a boltrifle, I do recall him saying that he was sure sometimes glad that he had a 4+1 capacity rifle. Now,..we need to remember that the video was made primarily for personal fun and entertainment reasons, accordingly I wont take the comparison serious, as.... Todd was using a SxS that he was intimately familiar & confident with, whilst Eric was handed a relatively unfamiliar & somewhat malfunctioning boltRifle. How each person would have performed in an actual close range DG charge, is also open to variation. | |||
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Matt, what I was talking about was elephant hunting, at close range, taking a brain shot. Which if that is executed properly, the elephant is pole-axed. Cuz in my opinion, close range elephant hunting is what the double is perfectly suited to. But if it makes you think you won a point on me, have at 'er. | |||
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Todd, excellent shooting. Why hasn't anyone asked why Eric wasn't shooting a lever .45-70...  I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I am not looking to score points, as you say. That makes sense if thats what you meant. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Its the same old story - double rifles are favored because of their performance values at reduced distances; beyond 70 yards they lose their effectiveness. | |||
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Fujotupu, I agree that the double rifle is best at “IN YOUR FACE” distances, and far better than a bolt rifle there! However in that same vain, I disagree with the poster above on the using of inferior chamberings ESPECIALLY at close range in any type rifle. Unless one has no other choice, in a surprise attack, and that is all you have in your hands at the time. I have a real problem with folks intentionally hunting among dangerous game with an inferior chambering in their rifle, regardless of type. There is an old saying that absolutely holds water,IMO and that is “If you hunt in dangerous game country carry a dangerous game rifle!” You need to be able to take care of what ever comes your way. On the double rifle at longer ranges, I disagree that a double rifle is inferior to any like chambered iron sighted rifle at any distance. The objection to the use of any rifle for longer range should be to the choice of SIGHTS, not the rifle system. A properly regulated double rifle and we should assume the maker physically regulated it properly, shooting ammo that matches the physical regulation of the rifle has only one draw-back at distance and that is the iron sights. Put a quick detach scope on that double rifle and it will match any BIG BORE single barreled rifle with same ballistic trajectory. Even with irons if the rifle is fitted with a down range flip-up it will be just as accurate as any iron sighted rifle at that range! You certainly wouldn’t want to stand at over 70 yds thinking I couldn’t hit you with the first and second shot with my 470NE double rifle. .................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Watch this video of a Warthog taken at 150 yards with a double rifle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InInjk2NCaw Bullet placement on that hog with him facing me, tusks in the way for a proper aim point?  It's not the 2 barrels that limits a double's range. It's the sights. As Mac says, a properly regulated double rifle will perform favorably with a similarly sighted bolt gun. Put a quick detach scope on a double, shoot a properly regulated load, and you're at no disadvantage. | |||
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Demonical,you are absolutely correct that if an ELEPHANT is POLE-AXED the drill is to immediately re-load the fired barrel especially if there are Askaris about. If however he is not POLE-AXED the second barrel should certainly be fired, then quickly reload both barrels and wait, if the target animal is down from that second shot. It is quite easy to botch a brain shot on an elephant, no matter what rifle you may be using! However of the two or three hundred hunters in Africa about 20% (60hunters) of the hunters will be using a double rifle, and about 5% (3 hunters)of these will hunt elephant. A full 90% of hunters who hunt dangerous game with a double rifle will hunt Cape buffalo or lion and in that case firing the first shot very carefully, on an undisturbed animal, followed quickly by the second barrel is recommended, and to re-load and continue shooting till the animal is down or out of sight. Matt is right admiring the first shot is not the best idea anyone ever had under most DG hunting situations. That is one of the most often complaints lodged by PHs about their clients, firing and waiting to see the effect of the first shot and not backing up their own first shot. ..........................................................................................What do you think? Is that reply true in your opinion? ............  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Hi Jason, Sorry, but we are on two sides of the same coin here again. That generalization of "The well placed 375" comment has always made my skin crawl, as evidently my rebuttal bugged you. Just different perspectives I suppose. Neither 100% right or wrong. But considering that generalized "375" statement was developed in response to guys showing up in camp, unpracticed and unprepared to take on DG, and the fact that the 375's lower recoil level allows that type of guy to do a better job afield, by omission it shortchanges the guy who really has put the trigger time in to master the big bore. I would suggest that a guy who is unpracticed and relying on the 375's lower recoil to get the job done, will inevitably place even that rifle's bullet in the wrong place! In which case an argument can be made for the following statement: "A well placed 577NE is better than a poorly placed 375"! Let's agree to disagree, as we often do!  | |||
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Traxx, There in, again, is the rub! As to the color RED and Italics above After the word machine should read, OR operator error! Everybody here understands operator error when under stress, and a perfectly operable rifle can and will at times have a malfunction due to operator stress. This is even evident in the on range pressure of trying to out shoot the other shooters on the firing line for speed and accuracy, and that stress will not even hold a light for in front of a charge stress to run by. I may be mistaken but I think what you are trying get across, without actually saying it, is: If a man has a well made and tuned bolt rifle there is no way it will jam, or fail to feed, even under the stress of standing a charge! OR, maybe what you are saying is: The fact that the bolt rifle must be re-loaded for every shot after the first one is fired, has no effect on the chances of a failure to feed, or jam, even when the operator is looking at a fast closing Buffalo, or lion, and the first shot doesn’t do the trick. OR maybe the fact that a double rifle, after pulling two triggers to fire shots one and two then must be opened only once for a re-load, after firing shot two, and that two triggers must be pulled before shot three and four can be fired, somehow makes the double rifle MORE prone to malfunction than a bolt rifle. Which is it? I’m confused!  ........................................................................................ ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Guides and PH's become well accustomed to the phrase "shoot it again"... and it's not because we like to see ammo being wasted. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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sure you are, bcause you imaginative mind is reading things into my statements, that simply are not there!
clearly you are mistaken!,..because what you wrote in bold above is not what I said, and consequently not what I meant. I never stated that a well made & tuned bolt rifle has no chance of malfunctioning, so why are you imaginatively reading such into my statements? read again.... [quote:] orig.posted by Trax: "The chance of hunter-operator error should not be compounded by using a firearm known to be mechanically disfunctional." [endquote] Selbys M98.416 had the chance to fail him anywhere during his 50yrs of PH duties, but never did. and Selby gives it high praise for never failing him. The .416 Eric used for the video caused him problems soon after it was handed to him, knowing it was a malfunctioning rifle, he was then required to "baby' it, when shooting for the released video. A well tuned-properly functioning CRF rifle that is 'short stroked' is failure on the operators part, ie; the operator is failing to operate the equipment as required. A poorly tuned or setup CRF that is fully cycled['firm & fast' or 'gentle & slow'], but does not properly cycle a round, is equipment malfunction. A person that knowingly brings a malfunctioning/problematic DG rifle into the field or into a time trail test/demonstration, is failing to use common sense.
I am more inclined to say that the two .416 boltrifles that caused Eric problems during the attempt at making the video, were two poorly-incorrectly prepped rigs. Get say an Echols built .416 with its pre-tested hunting ammo, together with an owner/operator who is intimately familiar & proficient with the rifle,... and then see what 'times' or 'malfunctions' one gets, whilst firmly & rapidly working the bolt through proper cycles. | |||
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Todd, great video & super shooting! Matt, Thanks for your video clip. That kid was smoking that lever rifle...On that note I'd be curious how a good shooter with a reliable short action DG caliber lever rifle would fare in a speed shooting contest. No, not me...just hypothesizing... | |||
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You would be inclined to be wrong Trax. I can't speak to Eric's rifle other than it's a very high grade full custom rifle. Now he may or may not have had it tuned correctly at this point. Again, I can't say. It appears his rifle needs some work. But the the rifle you see him shooting in the video belongs to me. It's had extensive work done to it. Wayne of American Hunting Rifles did the finish work on that gun just last year. I've shot it extensively since getting it back from Wayne. I've put it through the paces. To date, it's NEVER jammed on me. I'll guarantee that rifle is as close to 100% as you'll get! Eric jammed it on the first try, or maybe he short stroked it, I'd have to go back and watch the tape again, but it functioned flawlessly in the video you watched. Shootaway posted a video of himself firing 4 rounds as fast as he could, several times. I timed those rounds and timed Eric. Eric was faster by several seconds each time. Lots of excuses being made, not many videos being shown that contradict the results!! | |||
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I still say that any hunter with the proper motivation can become perfectly proficient and safe with either platform. All it takes is a proper attitude and willingness to obtain a high level of proficiency. For close in fast work I prefer a double. I don't give up much at range with one either. That being said I am pretty handy with a bolt gun too. The double has a slight advantage in close the bolt gun has an advantage at longer range neither of which is a deal killer for me. I make both of them work in either condition. | |||
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The 404 Jeffery video at the bottom of the page gives a good indication of how quickly a bolt gun can be shot accurately. I did not time it but he is smooth and fast. http://www.heymusa.com/ | |||
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Trax you and I are saying the same thing, and I agree with everything you say. However all do not apply to the video Todd presented. I believe you simply will not give enough credit to the fact that most bolt rifle shooters will screw up when rushed, no matter how well the rifle is prepped. It just seems you simply want to make any excuse to deny the fact that a bolt rifle exhibits more chances for a malfunction than a double rifle, with equally proficient shooters. The excuses simply do not hold water when tested. You keep quoting Selby's success with his bolt rifle, avoiding operator error, and I think you will admit the fact that MOST hunters that go to Africa with a bolt rifle are NOT SELBY! This was the case with Chris, not being SELBY he simply could not handle the pressure combined with the speed needed to handle a bolt rifle well enough to beat Todd shooting a double rifle in the shoot-out using a bolt rifle system that is a proven by it's owner to be well tuned. That being said, back to the main point of this thread, The best bolt rifle made opens it's self to malfunction several times while getting four shots off in quick fashion, allowing operator error. A double rifle presents far fewer openings to the idiot factor. ..................................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Bolts and Doubles *** A speed shooting competition - Video
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