A little friendly competition today comparing bolt guns and double rifles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...EN8&feature=youtu.be

Good shooting and who was the most accurate.

Mike

Looks like Todd and his double won in the accuracy dept too! Say Todd, what cartridge belt are you using? I like it.

NICE!

I enjoyed the comparison and while I can already hear the arguments about faster bolt work and not taking the rifle off the shoulder when cycling, your video shows that even with a reload the double can br as fast or faster thank a bolt gun without a reload.

Real eye opener. All about practice. I wonder how the bolt rifle would perform if it was the shooters normal practice rifle.

Did he fire just 3 shots to 4 on the double? The 4th bolt shot was much later.

Naki, Eric fired 4 shots. As mentioned in the video, Eric brought out his Lon Paul custom 416 Rigby. It spit a round out on the ground on the first try, jammed on the second and third try. So he tried my rifle. I got my hand in the way of the right barrel on the next try and knocked the empty case back into the chamber causing me to have to pull it out manually. So it took us a few tries to get a clean demo where neither of us had a malfunction.

Eric said he had to slow down just a bit and be a little more deliberate to get all 4 rounds executed without incident as he was rushing early on, really slamming the bolt forward and back. It was a good "stress" test for both of us as once you get going, you really don't know where you are in relation to the other guy's shooting.

For instance, I had one round high and to the right, probably outside of the pie plate. That was my 4th and last round. I rushed it because I though Eric was on his 4th when in fact he was really on his 3rd.

Anyway, it was a lot of fun and putting your rifle and shooting technique under the stress of competition like that really shows you what you need to work on and correct; both rifle and shooter!

I hope you guys enjoyed it.

Thanks for sharing guys - cool concept!

Will try with my VC / Bolt soon with brother when he's back in town... on a running target.

By the way guys, this clip is in 1080I HD so if you have a fast enough connection speed, select HD quality.

I think speed is more about the shooter than the firearm.

Good demo - that's a slick reload you got going on there Todd!!

Very good Todd, and this is about the same thing we have found at the DRSS shoots. It seems no matter how good the quality of the bolt rifles is, if the shooter is rushed it seems to exacerbate the number of jams or failure to feed. As your friend found he had to slow down to assure flawless feeding with both rifles and both are quality rifles.

This is also what was found by the Appie classes for new PHs in Africa. Two equally efficient shooters the double rifle guy is at no disadvantage to a good guy with a bolt rifle for four shots on target when timed against each other!
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quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Very good Todd, and this is about the same thing we have found at the DRSS shoots. It seems no matter how good the bolt rifles are, if rushed it seems to exacerbate the number of jams. As your friend found he had to slow down to assure flawless feeding.

This is also what was found by the Appie classes for new PHs in Africa. Two equally efficient shooters the double rifle guy is at no disadvantage to a good guy with a bolt rifle for four shots on target when timed against each other!
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A lot of it is just short-stroking though I think. I had an old sako 30-06 at the range a while back... doing some rapid fire. The first 20 rounds were fast but I jammed 1 in 5... then I slowed down just a fraction and consciously looked for the back of the bolt travel and make sure I didnt cam the bolt during the travel ... bingo. No jams and it wasnt any slower really...

I would be really interested in seeing this redone with a bolt shooter who was as familiar with his weapon as the DR shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I would be really interested in seeing this redone with a bolt shooter who was as familiar with his weapon as the DR shooter.

Same time for 4 shots... double much faster for 6 shots if the bolt gun only holds 3+1.

Great reload Todd. Well done

If I can match your speed and accuracy when my .500 arrives I'll be a happy man.

That's pretty slick shooting there Todd,
I think that against a blaser R8 it would be a much tighter contest! I would still prefer my double anyday though!

Cheers

Nick

Good shooting and good reloading.
By the way , what was the distance ?
Thanks for posting.

Fine shooting. I missed the last part of the video or my first try watching it did not show it all.


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I would be really interested in seeing this redone with a bolt shooter who was as familiar with his weapon as the DR shooter.

It's a valid point Jason. However, Eric is actually a very experienced shooter and we tried this 3 times with his rifle, a custom 416 Rigby. He badly jammed it all three times. That's why he moved to my rifle. He specifically stated he had to slow down just a bit to make sure and not mis-stroke the bolt each time.

Another consideration, which is a valid issue as well, is that Eric is shooting a 416 against my 500NE. How would the scenario have changed if he were shooting a 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery, or even 458 Lott. He is dealing with much less recoil than I am. Would he have been faster with a 375 H&H? Always lots of variables to consider but really we were just having a good time, not trying to definitively prove anything other than shooting big bore rifles is fun!!

When we ran this test, neither of us had any idea what would happen. I really thought he would beat me. And on that last run, the one you see in the video, as stated above, I rushed the 4th shot because when we both fired at the same time on shot no. 3, I thought it was his 4th. Thought I was way behind and just fired that 4th round quickly so as to not be beaten so badly. Turns out we were both on no. 3 at the time.

Eric is the fellow who got me into big bore rifles and double guns for that matter. So he isn't a newbie with these big guns. I think if you watch the video, only focusing on him, he is shooting that 416 pretty well.

All things being considered here guys, I don't know how practical this is in real life. I think if I were taking a charge from a buffalo using my double rifle, and the first two shots didn't stop him, I'd probably be looking for a tree instead of reloading quickly like this. I doubt I'd have the composure necessary to get it done. Probably much more likely to wait for the appropriate shot up close rather than start blasting away at a distance. These targets weren't charging us and closing the distance. It might be interesting to redo this on one of those charge simulator ranges. However, after two, I'm still looking for a tree!!

Good shooting Todd

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Good shooting Todd

Thanks Rick. One of these days, soon I hope, I'm going to come up to Pagosa Springs and take some pistol instructions from you. Your email instructions have been good but I know I could benefit from some one on one instruction.

Maybe we could re-run this test with your R8!

No matter how much imagination or faking might be put forth, a bolt on three shots is light years faster.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
No matter how much imagination or faking might be put forth, a bolt on three shots is light years faster.

Maybe with you shooting both types, especially if the double has more than one trigger!

The findings are that with both shooters being timed and both shooters equally proficient in the use of his type. With the shooting started with both barrels loaded on the double, and three down and one in the chamber of the bolt rifle. The individual times started when the first shot fired by each shooter and ending when each has fired shot four. This shooting at eight inch black targets, with a 2 inch white X-ring 25 yds where most charges start, then add to this the score of only the shots that hit the black or the white X-ring on the target, and you have PROOF not opinion!

The finding is, with the conditions above, that the first two AIMED shots from the double are much faster tan the bolt, shot three is about equal, and shot four is, to use your words, “light years ahead of the Bolt!”

Then you get down to scoring the targets, and we find far more misses of the black from the bolt shooters, than from the double shooters. In the case of the DRSS shoots down ad Julif, Texas with about 40 shooters with about 1/3rd shooting doubles, and about 2/3rds shooting mostly bolt, with a couple shooting lever actions, the top five with a combination of time and score were double rifle shooters. Even the other double shooters that came in behind a couple of bolts, the double shooters fared better in the target scores.

My score was 36 of a possible 40 points if all four hit the 2 inch X-ring, and my time was four seconds flat, and I tried to fire shot four with the auto safety on, had to disengage the safety and pull the trigger again for shot three. If not for the safety I could possibly shaved another second off that time. Even with a 36 points, and a time of four seconds flat I only took third place behind two other double shooters.

The above findings are mirrors the results found by the Big Bore Club of Australia, and the licensing PH schools in African countries.

Get on the firing line instead of a keyboard and when the last shot of four shots is fired and the scoring and timing is compared the BS stops!
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quote:

Originally posted by Will:
No matter how much imagination or faking might be put forth, a bolt on three shots is light years faster.

Will, what is your problem? This is the second video I've posted about speed shooting a double rifle with a reload. On the first one, you accused me of "photoshopping" the video. Is that even possible? Now you're accusing me of "faking" the outcome?

This video, as well as the other, was posted for the enjoyment of anyone who chooses to watch it. We did our best to get a good clean run with both rifles in an attempt to eliminate all of the "excuses". The fact is that the bolt rifle jammed 4 times and the double failed to eject the right barrel once (even pulling the case by hand I still beat the bolt gun on that attempt BTW, just barely).

So I see that you often enjoy taking shots at me for some reason Will. You accused me of shooting an elephant cow with two calves on my first ever video on the site. You continued with that theory even when the video evidence unequivocally showed you to be wrong. Accused me of photoshopping that video as well IIRC. Then you attempted to cast doubt on my lion's age by pointing out the cat "didn't have a black nose". When I immediately posted a pic showing the cat's fully "black nose" and how it appeared lighter due to being full of light colored sand from the river in which it fell, you failed to comment further.

So let's have it Will! What is your problem with me? Are you angry that I haven't purchased a billfold from you? Hell, I haven't purchased an ele ammo belt from Lionhunter or New_Guy either, mainly because I have more ele skin than I'll ever be able to use.

So Will, if you have such an issue with me, and you really think this shooting session was faked, would you like for me to show you the first 5 runs at it. I've got them on video as well. You'll see Eric giving it his all attempting to beat me. You know, kind of like when I showed the remaining video on the ele cow hunt where the two remaining cows that you called "calves" eventually ran off with their own calves? Kind of like when I posted the lion's nose full of "blonde" colored sand? I can do that if you'd like to be discredited again.

But I actually have a better idea. How about you come on out to Weatherford TX, bring your favorite big bore bolt action rifle, must be 416 or larger, no 223s now, and we'll set up the video camera, get a few witnesses to judge the event, and shoot for money! I'm not a rich man, nor a gambler, and by the looks of things, that is, you being an internet wallet peddler and all, I doubt you are a rich man either, so let's say $2,500, best 2 out of 3, no redo's for a jammed rifle, and we'll put it to the test. You can have a copy of the video and I'll take a copy, that way, we'll both be assured of it's being posted here. I suppose the "internet wallet peddler" comment was a bit unfair. You don't just do it on the internet. I actually met you at the DSC show pulling a little cart behind you while peddling wallets there! Maybe we should make it $1,000. Your choice big boy!

Damn, I really hate this. I posted that video for fun and to be enjoyed. But I've had enough of being called a liar by this miserable old malcontent and turning the other cheek. Time to put up or shut up Will. What say you?

Gentlemen, this argument will never end no matter how much documented evidence is presented before any number of witnesses! It matters not however because both sides with any experience know the truth. The reason it doesn’t matter is people who prefer one type over the other will always make excuses for the reason their type comes in second best! That is just the nature of fishermen, “If I had caught that fish you would be looking at a new state record, but he got off my line!” That applies to shooters as well it seems.
As per Todd's post above, can we make side bets?

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Sounds to me like Will better put up or shut up. His choice.

I like a man with a little gamble in him, myself. Put the money down and the bullshit stops in a hurry.

Hey Todd - you made that look easy! You've obviously spent some time on the range with your "2 pipe", as you shoot/reload it very well!!!

FYI - the late Clem Coetsee's brother, Paul, had a .577 which he used when he used to cull Elephant with back in the "old" Nat Park days - he challenged anyone to beat him with a bolt, to get 6 shots off quickly AND accurately. This meant that both rifles had to be reloaded.....no one could beat him.

This argument will never have a right or wrong answer but I still enjoyed that clip. Thanks for posting.

Good shooting Todd

Very interesting, we have had the same experiment inmy courses and ,sorry but sometimes the bolt action won -we used brnos and mausers- and sometimes the double .We used HYH,Merkell,and Kriehoff .

Good shooting to both shooters enjoyed the video!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
All things being considered here guys, I don't know how practical this is in real life. I think if I were taking a charge from a buffalo using my double rifle, and the first two shots didn't stop him, I'd probably be looking for a tree instead of reloading quickly like this. I doubt I'd have the composure necessary to get it done. Probably much more likely to wait for the appropriate shot up close rather than start blasting away at a distance. These targets weren't charging us and closing the distance. It might be interesting to redo this on one of those charge simulator ranges. However, after two, I'm still looking for a tree!!

Todd
I have always thought that was the biggest weakness of a double in a charge situation(having to take your eyes of the target to reload after shot #2). Where I see this being the greatest disadvantage is on a followup on a wounded leopard/lion/buffalo. Often the animal is spotted standing or crouching at fairly close range, but is partially hidden by brush. With a bolt you can shoot for center-mass hoping the bullet finds the target because you know that you still have multiple rounds if the animal charges. With the double most guys would hold off shooting through brush because no one wants to be holding a "single shot" if/when the animal charges.

I have always enjoyed discussing this stuff with you because, even though our opinions often differ, I have always though you were honest and forthright.

quote:

Will, what is your problem? This is the second video I've posted about speed shooting a double rifle with a reload. On the first one, you accused me of "photoshopping" the video. Is that even possible? Now you're accusing me of "faking" the outcome?

Your imagination is running a muck! Never saw your first video or this video! In a hunting situation it is just isn't going to happen to fire three from a double as fast as a bolt.

Jason, same here. We've always been able to debate with civility. Very valuable and appreciated.

Will, so can I assume you will not be accepting the challenge? BTW, I can link to all the previous comments to which I was referring should you desire to have your memory refreshed.

You want me to say you're wonderful and lightning fast? Consider it said!

You made the comment above about finding a tree. That's all I'm saying, that in a real situation all the talk and videos go out the window, including firing 3 from a double being faster than a bolt.

If you don't believe it than don't. Believe what you want to and I'll do the same.

With equally matched shooters of both types of rifles there are physical reasons the double is faster for four rounds fired on target!

The fact is the both rifle requires a different amount of moves to fire the four shots.

With the double with both barrels loaded, requiring a re-load after shot #2.

The bolt with one chambered and three down in the magazine, requiring the trigger to be pulled for the first shot, and the bolt worked for every shot there after.

The double requires two trigger pulls to fire the first two shots, and a re-load for shot three and four.
……………………………………………………………………………………………….
BOLT rifle:

Moves for shot One:

Move #1, pull the trigger to fire the first shot.

Moves for shot two:

Move #1 lift the bolt,

move #2 pull the bolt back,

move #3 push the bolt forward,

Move #4 pull the bolt back down,

Move#5 pull the trigger,


Moves for shot three:

Move #1 lift the bolt,

Move #2 pull the bolt back

Move #3 push the bolt forward

Move #4 pull the bolt down

Move #5 pull the trigger

Moves for shot four:

Move #1 lift bolt

Move #2 pull bolt back

Move#3 push bolt forward

Move #4 turn the bolt down

Move #5 pull trigger

Total of 16 moves to fire four shots with the bolt rifle.


Moves for double rifle

Moves to fire shots one and two Pull trigger one trigger twice or pull two triggers one pull each. In any even two moves!

Moves for shot three &4:

Move #1 push lever to right

Move #2 break rifle open

Move #3 move left hand to the back of the trigger hand

Move #4 pull two cartridges from carrier on back of trigger hand

Move #5 drop both into chambers

Move #6 close rifle

Move #7 pull front trigger

Move #8 pull back trigger


Bolt rifle 16 moves:

Double rifle 10 moves:

Every move is another chance for a miss-hap, and when in a hurry the chances multiply quickly.
Todd won anyway, but could have shaved a little more off his time if he had been getting cartridge 3 & 4 from the back of his trigger hand, with his right hand rather than from a belt! The trigger hand is only about five inches from the open breech, and the trigger hand stays on the wrist of the rifle!

Some one said that he would like to see this repeated with a rifle shooter who was more familiar with his rifle! The man firing the bolt rifle was first using his own rifle, and was getting jams, because he was getting rattled because of the competition factor, and did better after changing to a rifle with less recoil, and calming some. He did much better when he calmed down and moved slower. This is the problem with a bolt rifle, especially a push feed bolt rifle. Speed above what the shooter is used to produces far more chances of a miss-hap, and the number of moves needed increases the chances further.

As someone above said even though the Blaser bolt rifle is a push feed, the straight pull push bolt is quick, and remove several of the moves needed for a conventional bolt rifle but still has more moves than the double rifle. The CRF feature in a bolt rifle helps avoid some of the idiot factor in it’s operation without a jam, but is still more prone to them than a double rifle. In the final analysis, the more you can take the human factor out of the operation, the better outcome you will have.
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JBrown, Remember a double in the hands of a double rifle shooter is much more effective then a bolt shooter wacking away and not making the shot.
To Quote Andrew Jackson, " Don't shoot till you see the whites of there eyes."
Case here Begno hit a buf hunting with Nixon, buf charges Butch hits it 2 or 3 more times in chest not stopping. Nixon takes the charge head on a shot under eye, breaks lower jaw, one off the boss and buf hits him and breaks rifle then goes after Begno and he takes a hit and is hooked by horn ammo belt stuck on horn and he rides it to ground.
Takes alot of intestinal fortitude to stand there and wait for a non missing, up close and personal lethal stopping shot.

Mike

If the double is so damned fast then Nixon should have been able to shoot up a box of shells.

Guess that didn't happen, did it?

When the shit hits the fan (99.9% of the time a result of said clientele screwing up the first shot) all bets are off.

I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

Not in Nixon's case. But I guess he just forgot how fast he could have reloaded his double.

Agree Will

It only maters out in the field.

The benefit of lots of practice at the range
is to get the "default" down pat and so in
a tight spot your body will more often than
not return to the default or as I call it
muscle memory.

I have found it helps enormously but if the first or second shot misses, well .........

A double rifle is designed for two quick shots. When you need them there is no option to reload.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
You want me to say you're wonderful and lightning fast? Consider it said!

You made the comment above about finding a tree. That's all I'm saying, that in a real situation all the talk and videos go out the window, including firing 3 from a double being faster than a bolt.

If you don't believe it than don't. Believe what you want to and I'll do the same.

So Will, it's shut up, not put up, eh? Just wanted to be clear.


For the other posters, thanks for the inputs. One thing I think we all can agree on is that in DG hunting, there are so many variables concerning situations one may encounter, a definitive statement on which is better, bolt or double, cannot be said unequivocally. Both rifle types have their strengths and weaknesses.

If anyone would like to meet and shoot this competition with me, I'd be glad to do so. All for fun of course as it really was a hoot. I really would like to try this against someone with a Blaser R8 as I know they can be very fast.

Again, the reason we shot this test was that so many comments have been made about when the 3 rd or 4 th shot would come in comparison to each other and it was fun to see where things really shake out.