Todd
I'd like to see you do it against someone who
is a bit faster on the bolt and loads all the rounds "from the shoulder" (in view the guy dropped the stock off the shoulder for one
of the reloads).

Either way, you use what you have in
your hand at the time !!!

Everyone gets so hysterical about what they believe.

Like I said it just doesn't matter to me what anyone else believes.

But, it just might be a bit disingenuous to be telling someone how fast a double is when it just isn't going to happen in a real charge, or a fast disappearing buff, elephant, or whatever.

As long as we are at it, there are damn few, very very few, PH's that can KILL a charging elephant, buff, etc. on the first much less second shot.

And there must be a minuscule number of dudes that can pull it off.

And we're arguing about reloading a double? Seems quite irrelevant in the light of reality.

Do they make crawfish wallets?

Todd,

You obviously have practiced a great deal with your doubles. I could find no flaw in your technique. Your buddy on the other hand looked far from comfortable. That pad on his shoulder was a problem. I used to use the same pad and it increases LOP a bunch and eliminates that pocket in shooter's shoulder that holds the rifle butt so the rifle just does not fit the shooter. These two things together make the rifle ungainly to handle and have to reduce speed an accuracy.

Without question at close range a double handled by an experienced shooter is quicker for the first two shot but I think your advantage goes away quickly thereafter. You have to look down to reload a double and in that gap the bolt shooter is continuing to pour on the lead without ever loosing sight of the game.

Mark

Will

Of the small number of charges I have faced
- Water Buffalo / Scrub Bulls, you only seem
to get one, maybe two shots before they are on you or would have been if they hadn't have dropped).

Todd,

About what distance was that?

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Do they make crawfish wallets?

You wouldn't laugh if you'd ever been charged by a bull crawdad.

quote:

Originally posted by mfischer:
Very interesting, we have had the same experiment in our courses and ,sorry but sometimes the bolt action won -we used brnos and mausers- and sometimes the double .We used HYH,Merkell,and Kriehoff .

You must see any of our instructors shooting bolt actions , left handed or rigth handed, by the way the won with doubles too, to not so trained guys .I saw here that Todd is VERY WELL TRAINED with the double ,and excuse me ,but i believe the bolt action guy isnt so fast .

I'm not quite sure how you can count cycling the bolt as 4 separate movements, then ignore the following.(to be fair, I think that both rifle types require more movements than you have outlined)

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


Moves for double rifle

Moves to fire shots one and two Pull trigger one trigger twice or pull two triggers one pull each. In any even two moves!
Move #0 the trigger finger has to be moved from one trigger to the other

Moves for shot three &4:

Move #1 push lever to right

Move #2 break rifle open

Move #3 move left hand to the back of the trigger hand

Move #4 pull two cartridges from carrier on back of trigger hand

Move #4a move left hand toward breech

Move #5 drop both into chambers

Move #5a move left hand forward to forearm

Move #6 close rifle

Move #6a raise and shoulder rifle rifle

Move #7 pull front trigger

Move #8 pull back trigger


Bolt rifle 16 moves:

Double rifle 10 moves:

Every move is another chance for a miss-hap, and when in a hurry the chances multiply quickly.

No one ever dropped the third round on the ground in the heat of battle? Thats when it gets interesting!

I've shot enough competition to learn long ago its the indian, not the arrow.

Todd, you are amazingly good with the double. The only way I would beat you is using an autoloader. You are just plain better than the other guy.

However, a few nits.

I think a .416 rigby has more real recoil than you are giving credit for. I've shot a .500 a couple times, and felt that it was not too much different than a .470. Both the 500 and 470 to me are a push type recoil, not a sharp recoil. Also, an appropriate weight double is heavier than a bolt for the same caliber. This tends to make a difference in how well you work the gun.

Personally, and I am no where as good as you are, for me the break point is over 2 rounds. I am much faster with the double with 2 shots, much faster with the bolt for up to 6 shots (my Rigby will take 4+1) as not taking the rifle from my shoulder, throwing 1 in the action and closing it is roughly the same time as loading 2 for the double. I have never tried for sustained fire, but I suspect that the double would be faster after that due to getting 2 rounds to the 1 with the bolt.

To me the big advantage in the field is that with my eyesight, a low power scope will give me much more accurate bullet placement than irons (although I broke down and scoped my .470 for my upcoming elephant hunt because of this...), and secondly, there is no way I want to take my eyes off the target in a charge situation. In my 3 gun shooting, if I take my eyes off the target to reload (shotgun) I really have difficulty picking it up (in the sense that it costs me about .2-.3 sec). I know some folks can reload a double without looking at it. I can't, although maybe I could with enough practice.

In essence, what I am trying to say is that I think this whole argument is not very useful. The guy who is good with his double is going to be better than the guy who is "OK" with his bolt gun. The guy who is very good with his bolt, will be better than the guy who is good with the double. You need to use what works for you personally, and practice enough so you know what works for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Todd,

About what distance was that?

Jim

Jim, and I think someone else asked as well, we were shooting about 30 yards. Maybe a little over that. We had been working with the chrony earlier and were a bit offset from that site as I needed to get the sun right for the camera. Maybe 31, 32 yards or so. I don't think further.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

Only for someone who is not proficient with their equipment. The rest learn the right techniques and practice lots...

CRAWFISH WALLET - now that's funny!!

Todd, I really appreciate your video. Fun to watch and especially so since I too shoot a double. Have gotten two shots on both buffalo and elephant, and there is nothing faster or more effective than two well placed shots from a big ol' double rifle. Have reloaded on an elephant as he was headed in my direction and got a couple more in him. Time seemed to stand still when that happened and the fingers seemed to take a long time to work properly. Watching the video later, that was not the case....

I wouldn't bet against you on three shots with a bolt, and especially not for accurate placement. Apparently neither will Will !

Leaving for Africa on Friday. It really is intoxicating, and your video made it even more fun to anticipate.

Thanks!!

In all honesty Todd's buddy Eric is not that slow on the bolt gun, even though he lowered the gun a bit... A 416 sure lets you know you are shooting it and isnt easy to get back on target so fast. Even a 375 isnt that easy to rapid fire.

It's worth noting that the double had ejectors, while most on this board prefer extractors. Also, the double shooter fired first and the bolt shooter removed his cheek from the stock with each shot.

I don't mean to snivel; both shooters were clearly above average and the video was well done.

AP
Todd posted a video last year of him shooting a different .500 and he'll correct me if I'm wrong but it may have been a Merkel with extractors and he wasn't much slower with it for 4 rounds. I'm having a new .470 built and have requested extractors instead of ejectors. Todd shoots fast. He can't hit shit, but damn is he fast!

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
It's worth noting that the double had ejectors, while most on this board prefer extractors.

Are you sure about that?

Talking about fast - this story was on prime-time city news here the other day. Check out the kid on the SxS shotgun... not a great copy of the video but you get the message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ilpage&v=UAtLN8li-do

Holy Crap Matt. That kid is some kind of fast!! Boggles the mind a bit really! I've always enjoyed watching the "Cowboy Action" shooting events. This fellow was really fast with everything, including the double barreled shotgun. I suppose you guys no longer have pump shotguns "Down Under"? But have you watched an American "Cowboy Action" event where they shoot the pump action shotgun. After emptying the magazine, they single feed the shotgun "over the top" of the action. Amazingly fast! Good stuff and thanks for posting it Matt.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
It's worth noting that the double had ejectors, while most on this board prefer extractors.

Are you sure about that?

Agree.

I'd take ejectors if the gun has them but quite happy
to use extractors if that is what is there.

It doesn't take much to get the case out as you
open the gun anyway.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
This fellow was really fast with everything, including the double barreled shotgun.

He got off 4 shot in 2 seconds, and 5 shots in 4 seconds! Really pretty unbelieveable.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

..The guy who is good with his double is going to be better than the guy who is "OK" with his bolt gun. The guy who is very good with his bolt, will be better than the guy who is good with the double. You need to use what works for you personally, and practice enough so you know what works for you.

Harry Selby, after having his .470 Rigby bent by a struck, took purchase of a .416 Rigby mauser,
which served him well for close to 5 decades.{in between he had a push feed .458win}
I read that Selby also had easy access to a .450 SxS,but rarely reached for it over his BigBore bolt rifles.

The Selby .416 was 4+1, then became 3+1, when Rigby messed with it during its re-barrel.
I gather the M70 PF .458win was also 3+1.

Selby was also an 'up & close' type of guy on a variety of DG, ...&
survived some 50+ full seasons of PH duties using primarily a bolt rifle with RN solids.

[quote]
“I like hunting,” explained Selby. “I like hunting even a rabbit. Each particular animal has its own charm.

With elephant it’s the anticipation, following mile after mile after mile, getting really close, and then you have to do it all again the next day. And then when you do see a really fine one, the thrill, magnificent.

“I really love buffalo hunting. You get right in amongst them, very fast going, running after them. And then leopard hunting is waiting. You have to try and outwit the leopard and he’s trying to outwit you.

“And lion. Tracking a lion in thick bush is probably the most exciting thing you could possibly do. Everything else is blotted out from your mind and your nerves are taut as a violin string.
If the bush is really thick you’re walking in the footsteps of the guy in front of you, you’ve gone maybe five or six paces in 20 minutes, and everyone is peering underneath the bush.
Sometimes you can smell him, or you hear him cough, and you know you’re right next to him. And there may be five or six lions in there, so when you shoot there’s an explosion of lion.

That’s a pretty thrilling feeling when you get into a situation like that. But you can’t really compare them. They’re different kinds of thrills. They’re all good.”
[endquote]

[quote]
“I knew the cartridge by reputation, but nothing really prepared me for the impression that I got from using that rifle—the immense knockdown, the ease of handling, the flat trajectory.
In a very short time I didn’t want another double. I thought that .416 was a perfect professional hunter’s rifle.
It’s been with me the rest of my hunting career. I did eventually wind up with a double .450 No. 2 just as a backup,
in case something went wrong, but I hardly ever used it.”
[endquote]



[quote]
Donald drove up and stopped. In a flash I remembered the rifles, but it was too late, one of his front wheels had driven directly on to the barrels of my Rigby.470. Horrified I retrieved the rifle as Donald reversed and immediately realized the worst. The barells were badly bent. Who was to blame? Nobody! We did not expect Donald to come along when we put the rifles in the grass, and he did not know that the rifles were there. It was a tragic accident.

However I was devastated, and to make matters worse, I was now without a heavy rifle and I had another three month Safari starting as soon as the Steele Safari was over.
I had with me a very nice .375 Winchester Model 70 which I used for the remainder of the trip, but I could not start a new Safari with a .375 as my heavy rifle. That would be unthinkable, at a time when great store was laid on large bores and heavy bullets.

On arrival back in Nairobi a couple of weeks later, I immediately began making enquiries for a replacement, but time was short and there appeared to be nothing in the line of heavy double rifles available.
The only heavy rifle I could find was a Rigby .416 at a dealer by the name of May & Co. It had been ordered by Don Bousfield, a game ranger, and for some reason, Don and the .416 had not bonded. It was “as new” and for sale for one hundred pounds . I had no option. I bought it. Little knowing then that decision was one of the most important I would make throughout my hunting career.

So began a lifelong love affair between myself, the .416 caliber, and the Rigby rifle.
.
I very soon realized that this rifle and cartridge combination was for me far superior to any double. The inherent accuracy of a bolt action was apparent from the very first shot, the phenomenal penetration was to make itself evident as time went by.
I also appreciated the four round magazine, and on several occasions was glad that those four rounds were ready and waiting.


Suffice to say that after about two Safaris I would not have gone back to a double under any circumstances. In the Rigby .416 I had found the perfect Professional Hunters rifle,
A beautifully balanced, fast handling weapon propelling a four hundred grain bullet fast enough to enable it to reach out up to three hundred yards if need be, when trying to bring down a wounded animal, and yet perform with devastating effect on large dangerous game at close range. I was impressed!!!.

I have to say that this rifle never gave the slightest trouble, it did however, give the most satisfactory service anyone could ask for, it never let me down, ever!!. I think my Wakamba gun bearers were even more devoted to it than I was. Maybe they thought it had some kind of “dawa.”{medicine}. They called it “Skitini” the closest they could get to four sixteen, and I do believe they were convinced it did most of the shooting by itself. I merely pointed it in the right direction. They regarded it as the one thing that stood between themselves and a possible messy follow up.

Over the years as a Professional Hunter I carried the .416 from the Sudan in the North to Botswana in the South. There have been some rather tricky situations, and it was largely due to the qualities of the Rigby rifle and the performance of the 416 cartridge that everyone involved came through unscathed." [endquote]

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
It's worth noting that the double had ejectors, while most on this board prefer extractors.

Are you sure about that?

Yeah, I only have experience with ejectors, but wouldn't be without them. As for the "ping" when it ejects supposedly scaring game away (after two discharges of .500NE, really?) it doesn't matter for a solitary animal, and it hasn't seemed to matter when culling a herd, either.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

Only for someone who is not proficient with their equipment. The rest learn the right techniques and practice lots...

Let me know where you can practice elephant charges.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

Only for someone who is not proficient with their equipment. The rest learn the right techniques and practice lots...

Let me know where you can practice elephant charges.

On the internet. My keyboard stops the charge every time.....

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
This fellow was really fast with everything, including the double barreled shotgun.

He got off 4 shot in 2 seconds, and 5 shots in 4 seconds! Really pretty unbelieveable.

These speeds are not so unbelievable if you remove the recoil of a big bore(or centerfire) and shorten the shooting range as in that video.
That being the case you can shoot at home in your garage and not have to go to the shooting range at all.You have to have recoil and have skillful aiming or else it is not fun to me.

From Todds video I got 8 seconds for the bolt shooter and 7 seconds for the double rifle.
IMO,a good bolt big bore shooter could do 4 or 5 seconds at 25yds and get extremely good accuracy.

Very interesting video Todd. You are very proficient with that double and accurate as well. However, this is subjective stuff, I believe I am faster with my bolt rifles than your guy, but if you were faster than me with my bolt rifle, I will still never be faster (4 shots) with my doubles than myself with a bolt gun. I am just much more proficient with the bolts.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Let me know where you can practice elephant charges.

What is better for preparedness do you think? Facing a couple of elephant charges OR learning the right shooting techniques and putting hundreds of rounds downrange in various positions?

IMO - there is a lot to be said for the proper shooting training. Under pressure the shooter reverts to their default and that's where a lot of shooters will go to pieces if they haven't practiced.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I don't care how fast anyone can reload a double playing at the range, when said shit hits said fan they're most likely screwing up by pulling the first trigger twice, wondering why the double isn't going off and pulling that trigger all the harder, turning said double rifle into a single shot.

This is not what happens in the field... the hunter/shooter who turns to shit is the one who hasnt practiced proper technique - and practiced a LOT.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
It's worth noting that the double had ejectors, while most on this board prefer extractors.

Are you sure about that?

One of the reasons I sold my Merkel was that it was an extractor not an ejector. I won't own another extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Holy Crap Matt. That kid is some kind of fast!! Boggles the mind a bit really! I've always enjoyed watching the "Cowboy Action" shooting events. This fellow was really fast with everything, including the double barreled shotgun. I suppose you guys no longer have pump shotguns "Down Under"? But have you watched an American "Cowboy Action" event where they shoot the pump action shotgun. After emptying the magazine, they single feed the shotgun "over the top" of the action. Amazingly fast! Good stuff and thanks for posting it Matt.

Yeah I have seen them, it sure is a weird way to do it...

Here is an article on Sam in a newsletter from last month... interesting! http://www.ssaansw.org.au/imag...ril%20web%202013.pdf

Don't remind me about the pump actions... that was a brain snap. We are slowly getting them back here for commercial shooters - but it is going to to take a lot of time, effort and hard work.

I thought the guy on the Bolt action was exteamly slow?

I would like to see the results if each shooter shot alone against the clock. In the video it appears the go signal is the report of the double rather than a go from a third party. Also, it would be interesting to see how it would go under field conditions rather than in a dead flat cleared area. Scatter a few logs around and require each shooter to shoot the second two shots at a different target requiring some movement to see.

Butch, I'm glad you commented here. I knew you had a run in with a buff and felt your bolt gun allowed more shots into the animal. It's a good real life perspective to add to the discussion.

I really don't understand Will's rationale. Not at all. He seems to be saying that practice is useless. Seems as if he thinks the guy who shows up at camp with a brand new scoped 375 that was mounted and boresighted only by the local gun shop, without the client ever firing a round, relying 100% on the PH to pull his ass out of a tight spot is the way to go since practice at the range is useless. He seems to think that because he never mastered double rifles, others are incapable of mastering them as well. Kind of like all the guys that regurgitate "Harry Selby one said all clients should use a 375" and take that to mean PHs don't appreciate the guy who shows up in camp really proficient with a true big bore rifle. I can tell you, they do!

It doesn't matter whether a bolt gun or double rifle, practice working the gun from a mechanical standpoint is extremely valuable. It's like learning a particular "lick" on a musical instrument whereby you do it enough that it becomes muscle memory. When the shit hits the fan, you do it just like you've trained. As we said in the military, you fight the way you trained. If you have to "think" about moving from the front trigger to the rear trigger, you simply haven't spent enough time with the rifle type. It never crosses my mind. Same with opening the action. If you notice, on both of my double rifle shooting videos, after the fourth shot is fired, even though I'm not reloading the rifle, I still pop the action open and empty the chambers. I don't even think about it, it's just the way I do it every time. Muscle memory. And I've done enough DG hunting Will to know that my range practice has paid dividends. Hell, I've done enough to sell a few ele skinned wallets. Maybe I'll become a peddler in my retirement!

I actually like extractors in a double and with the wrist flick technique, they can be very fast to reload as well, but it's another movement or two. I've grown to like the ejectors now as well and I think going forward, I'd opt for the ejectors if given a choice. But, if I found a nice double that interested me, I certainly wouldn't let extractors keep me from purchasing it. It's just a different technique required to operate it quickly, but it can be done.

One comment here. We made this video due to the endless discussions on AR and around the campfire of how the two rifle types would stack up over 4 shots. Lots of opinions and theory. A bit like discussing which football team should beat the other based on the individual player's skills. But they still play the games on Sunday afternoon, right?! I'm still seeing lots of comments about how Eric was slow, he took the rifle off the shoulder, etc., etc. Shootaway even says a good bolt shooter should get 4 shots accurately in 4 or 5 seconds. I'd like to see it. I'm not saying it can't be done; not at all!! But the difference is we posted a video showing the two of us doing our dead level best to outshoot the other guy. No theory or opinion. Just stood up there and banged away, not knowing what the outcome would be. Eric found that with both bolt action rifles, he had to slow down just a bit to avoid a jam. Have you ever read the reports from the Zim PH licensing shooting test? They are full of big bore, CRF rifles jamming and spitting shells onto the ground. That's exactly what Eric found with this little experiment as well.

So it's nice to tell us all how you can do better than my buddy did with a bolt gun. We anticipated every excuse put forth so far. But how about showing us?!! Keyboard statements are pretty easy to make. Getting together with a buddy who is proficient with big bore rifles, bolt or double, and banging away on camera, letting the chips fall where they may for all to see is a different story all together! Again, practicality for reloading a double during a charge, probably not. Practicality for reloading a double with an animal going away, yeah I see that one as being viable. I've done that one. But that's not what this video was about. It was about addressing the endless campfire discussions of how the two rifle types stack up over 4 shots. 6 shots are also discussed as it causes the bolt shooter to reload as well, but the argument is usually confined to 4 shots. We put it to the test, with the rifles and shooters at hand, for better or worse. Entertain us and show us what you can do now! Don't just tell us. We can do that at the next campfire session!!

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I would like to see the results if each shooter shot alone against the clock. In the video it appears the go signal is the report of the double rather than a go from a third party. Also, it would be interesting to see how it would go under field conditions rather than in a dead flat cleared area. Scatter a few logs around and require each shooter to shoot the second two shots at a different target requiring some movement to see.

Really? Now the excuses are getting pretty lame. The go signal was given as a verbal go "GO". Watch it again.

Yes, it would be interesting to see how it would go under field conditions. Let's see your video!

Just get that double-barrel bolt gun and have the best (or worst) of both worlds.

Liked the video Todd. Sorry for all the other bull shit in the thread.

Todd,I have seen video of a couple of guys who post on AR who can shoot big bores with that speed and accuracy I mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
It's worth noting that the double had ejectors, while most on this board prefer extractors.

Are you sure about that?

Agree.

I'd take ejectors if the gun has them but quite happy
to use extractors if that is what is there.

It doesn't take much to get the case out as you
open the gun anyway.

.

I have only owned doubles with extractors but would like my next one to be an ejector gun.

That being said a good shooter can shoot an extractor gun pretty much as fast, very little difference in reloading time, if any.

Todd,

Good video, you are fast on the trigger.