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Excellent work by all the .458 Crusaders, carrying on with THE MISSION during my muzzleloader sabbatical.
I heard canines in the woods and got rained on but had plenty of fun, just hunting deer, not killing deer.

Big buy a donkey to Hannay for the excellent reporting on H4895 and 400-gr Speer.
clap
I wonder if a filler was used ?
Seems like a pretty wide spread for those 3 shots with 65.1 grains.
And some good accuracy with the 60-grain charge. tu2

Past experience seemed to indicate I had my best accuracy at around 1800 fps MV with that bullet.
I need to try it again.

I have new inspiration for trying that bullet on varmints.
Mike McGuire found use for it in Australia, he says,
for exploding some varmints near and flattening them afar with an MV of about 2000 fps.
I am not interested in preserving the pelts.

300-gr TTSX or TSX-FB at warp speed would be fine too. On coyote, I am sure penetration would be more than sufficient.
Hornady Monoflex 250-gr or Hornady 325-gr FTX ditto.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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A picnic table from Tractor Supply set out on the back deck makes a good rest for checking zero,
no trespassing for a mile of trees downhill into Soggy Bottom is the backstop.
Any trespassing cattle better beat it, while waving their "Eat more chicken!" signs:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Two amigos:



.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
I wonder if a filler was used ?


No fillers were used. I bought some 1/2" foam backing rod last night. Is it cut to length in a single piece to fill the gap between the powder and bullet, or do you slice it into multiple pieces and tamp them down individually? Thanks in advance for your advice.
 
Posts: 517 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 November 2010Reply With Quote
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Either way you want to do it: One long wad or a stack of short wads.
I like to cut a bunch of them at once, store them in a plastic container, use them with different loads as needed.
A 0.4" height/thickness with 0.5" diameter foam wad is what I have done in the past.
I have used one of those or a stack of four of them, depending on how much air space.
A 1.6"-tall stack of 4 of them can be compressed down to 0.8" tall or 0.4" tall.
Use about twice the length of foam as the length of air column under the seated bullet.
Compress the foam into the case, over the powder, with a dowel or pencil eraser, then seat the bullet over that.
You might get higher speed and smaller extreme spreads with whatever charge of H4895 you choose by using the filler.
The foam wads weigh next to nothing, a small fraction of the weight of Dacron fluff that would be required.
The foam wad vanishes on firing instead of causing a snow storm like the Dacron does.
tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustavo:
Interesting reading

458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott: What You Know May Be Wrong

https://thebiggamehuntingblog....D121DIyNPltUolA_yijI



Oh Boy; RIP get a hold of this guy he'll throttle him ! horse


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Either way you want to do it: One long wad or a stack of short wads.
I like to cut a bunch of them at once, store them in a plastic container, use them with different loads as needed.
A 0.4" height/thickness with 0.5" diameter foam wad is what I have done in the past.
I have used one of those or a stack of four of them, depending on how much air space.
A 1.6"-tall stack of 4 of them can be compressed down to 0.8" tall or 0.4" tall.
Use about twice the length of foam as the length of air column under the seated bullet.
Compress the foam into the case, over the powder, with a dowel or pencil eraser, then seat the bullet over that.
You might get higher speed and smaller extreme spreads with whatever charge of H4895 you choose by using the filler.
The foam wads weigh next to nothing, a small fraction of the weight of Dacron fluff that would be required.
The foam wad vanishes on firing instead of causing a snow storm like the Dacron does.
tu2


Thanks RIP!
 
Posts: 517 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 November 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
quote:
Originally posted by Gustavo:
Interesting reading

458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott: What You Know May Be Wrong

https://thebiggamehuntingblog....D121DIyNPltUolA_yijI



Oh Boy; RIP get a hold of this guy he'll throttle him ! horse


Big Grin dancing can´t understand how Obi Wan RIP let this slip under his belt


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com
 
Posts: 740 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With Quote
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CTF,

Seems we have seen that article before, eh ?

Gustavo,

I was just trying to be nice, by not being too critical of the article. I printed it March 3, 2020, read it, and filed it after punching some holes in it.
Punched holes literally for binding the paper,
and punched a few more holes in it figuratively to let out some hot air.

Author is up front about his commercialism, stating he earns a small commission from the links where he is offering things for sale.
Either .458 WM or .458 Lott, he wants to sell, sell, sell.
Was that not the primary reason for releasing the .458 Lott Kraken ? Sell, sell, sell, after everybody and his brother had been satiated on the .458 WM ?

Author claimed the "introduction of the 9.3x62mm Mauser cartridge in 1905 spurred the British to develop their own bolt action rifles
as well as cartridges like the .375 H&H Magnum, the .404 Jeffery, the .416 Rigby, and the .425 Westley Richards." Roll Eyes

Jeffery was already selling .404 Jeffery rifles in 1905. The .404 Jeffery evolved from the .400 S. Jeffery of 1897 (later known as the .450/400 NE 3")
which was shooting as a Farquharson single-shot before Rigby got his .450 Rigby Special (.450 NE 3.25") to survive proof as a double rifle.

Author mentions the .375 Weatherby of 1944 and the .378 Weatherby of 1953, kudos for that,
BUT HE TOTALLY IGNORES MENTION OF THE .450 WATTS MAGNUM WHICH WAS SHOOTING BY 1949 !
(Roy Weatherby's creations probably influenced James Watts to start dreaming about the .450 Watts Magnum in the mid 1940's,
as a better bear medicine than his .375 H&H.)

So author gives full credit to Winchester for necking up a 2.85"-long, H&H-belted case to .458 caliber, and then shortening it to 2.5" case,
for sales in 1956. Roll Eyes

Vague anecdotes about faulty .458 WM ammunition are parroted as usual with no specifics identified.
History buffs want to know more details !

Author claims falsely that Winchester developed their data for 500-gr and 510-gr bullets at 2150 fps by using a 26" barrel.
No, they used a 25" barrel. Roll Eyes

Author also pushes the later-contrived propaganda that Jack Lott's 1959 run-in with a cape buffalo convinced Jack that the .458 WM "cartridge was not up to the task." Roll Eyes
Wrong. Jack and his compadres were still singing praise for the .458 WM as superbly practical for a DGR more than a decade after 1959.
Jack's 1959 problem was a gut shot with a soft, and a bullet failure with an FMJ on the second shot he got off.
Had the speed of that FMJ been greater, the failure of the "solid" would have been worse, most likely.
The .458 WM cartridge only became "horrible" after others had developed replacements for it that needed some selling, like the .458 Lott wildcat of 1971.

Author totally ignores throating differences of the SAAMI .458 WM of 1956 versus the SAAMI .458 Lott of 2002.
LongCOL .458 WM is not even considered.
Lower SAAMI pressure for the .458 WM versus the .458 Lott is likewise ignored. Roll Eyes

Author finishes strong with the sales pitches:

"Buy some excellent .458 Winchester Magnum hunting ammo here."
"Buy some great .458 Lott hunting ammo here."

"Buy a nice .458 Win Mag hunting rifle here."
"Buy a great .458 Lott hunting rifle here."

.458 WM: "excellent" and "nice."... Only nice ?
.458 Lott: "great" and "great." Roll Eyes

Author's pick for his personal DGR is a .458 WM.
At least he got that right !
But he also "understands" why others "might go with the .458 Lott."
Of course he does, the more sales the merrier.
"Book an incredible Cape buffalo hunt here."
"Book an excellent African safari hunt here."
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I crudely applied a ballpoint pen and a ruler to a paper print of Hannay's plot, then scanned it and opened the file with Paint:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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SPEER HANDLOADING MANUAL NUMBER 15
has no H4895 listed data for the 400-gr Speer bullet,
ShortCOL 3.125":

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The only bullet Speer uses for their manual nowadays with the .458 Lott and COL of 3.400",
the 350-gr FNSP Hot-Cor:



Note Alliant Power Pro Varmint and 1200-R,
AA-2460 and H322.
All should be good in the .458 TRUMP, with a longer-length 350-grainer !

Here is the ShortCOL (3.105") and low pressure data for the .458 WM with Speer 350-grainer:



.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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tu2

With the short length of the Speer 350 . By loading the 350 gr TSX to 3.34" it ought to come out to similar case volume available.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
tu2

With the short length of the Speer 350 . By loading the 350 gr TSX to 3.34" it ought to come out to similar case volume available.


CTF,

Recall that Bob pioneered the +2800 fps load of the 350-gr TSX-FB in the .458 TRUMP.
Bullet length is 1.229" or 1.23" if you like it that way, close enough for government work. Wink
I followed his lead on that, my loads:
COL is 3.440" to 3.445", seated on the third cannelure.
Seating on the second cannelure would allow SAAMI .458 WM COL.

As you were, COL = 3.440" to 3.445", .458 TRUMP.
WLRM primer.
Hornady once-fired brass, .458 WM, 2.495" to 2.500" length: Goal is to grow them to 2.505" and trim them to 2.500", no shorter.
Barrel: 25" Shilen.
42 degrees F ambient.

78.0 grains is a loosely poured 100% net fill/LR >>> 2663 fps MV: 3 shots chronographed with 0 fps st.dev., a triplicate reading !

81.0 grains is a loosely poured 104% net fill/LR >>> 2806 fps MV: 3-shot st.dev. was 7.9 fps, but more accurate in my rifle. Found node.

Best accuracy was with 75.0 grains H4198, 0.33 MOA for 3 shots, MV = 2590 fps, st.dev of 8 fps, ES of 17 fps for 3 shots, Oehler 35P calculated.
This is the Mother Node load in Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ for 350-gr TSX.

Your mileage may vary.

Mild compression of the 81.0-gr charge of H4198 might be avoided with a drop tube pack before seating.

Maybe higher velocity with lower pressure can be done with some of those .458 Lott loads from the Speer #15 manual ...

AA-2460 looks sweet and is probably as thermally stable as any ball powder.

.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

Gustavo,

I was just trying to be nice, by not being too critical of the article. I printed it March 3, 2020, read it, and filed it after punching some holes in it.
Punched holes literally for binding the paper,
and punched a few more holes in it figuratively to let out some hot air.

"


Obi Wan Master RIP

animal tu2 tu2

Your the man!

Serioulsy, you need to stop posting and start writing a book devoted in its entirety to the venerable, Emperor of Kings, the .458WM

We need your wisdom on a nice, case colored book for the generations to come!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com
 
Posts: 740 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With Quote
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Gustavo,

You are too kind.
Speaking of books, the GUN DIGEST 2021 has lately been discovered at the local emporium.
"Celebrating 75 editions of freedom and firearms!"

Pages 314-319 feature Phil Shoemaker's article:

"OLD UGLY, Three Decades with a Deadly Serious Rifle"



Old Ugly should have been the cover story instead of the "ATAC Defense Enhanced Rifle."
Alas, Old Ugly the .458 WM Mauser was relegated to the latter half of the book and only six black and white pages of text and photos.

I share a special kinship with Old Ugly, beyond our similar degrees of personal pulchritude.
Phil started building her in 1984, same year that I got my first .458 WM, a Ruger No. 1.
Sigh ...

Notables from the article:

Wet magazine print penetration test:
.404 Jeffery with 400-gr Swift A-Frame stopped at 17 inches.
.458 WM with 500-gr Hornady soft stopped at 24 inches.

Specific Hornady soft not specified.
Impact velocities not specified for either bullet.
Phil would need to supply any further specifics.

Phil does say the 500-gr Hornady RNSP was usually loaded by him with 70 grains of IMR-3031 and from Old Ugly's 21" barrel gave 2040 fps MV.
And he liked it that way.
Zeroed at 100 yards.
1-foot drop at 200 yards.
3-feet drop at 300 yards.
6-feet drop at 400 yards.
12-feet drop at 500 yards.
"My trajectory table, while not exact, is simple, quick and easy to remember and satisfactory for the large animals I am hunting ..." said Phil.

A client's 74" moose would not go down after client ran out of ammo, wounding it at long range.
Client asked PH Phil to shoot the wounded moose at near 400 yards distant, before it got away.
Phil gave Old Ugly proper Tennessee Elevation and unleashed a 500-gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, the original from Jack Carter.
The 1800-pound bull shuddered with impact and collapsed, and shortly after that the sound of the "bullet whack" was heard by Phil and client.

Phil said that his .458 WM TBBC 500-grain bullet had been loaded with 70 grains of IMR-3031.
MV should have been around 2040 fps from 21" barrel of Old Ugly.
Client was using a .411 KDF, missed with one shot and wounded with 2 shots, then ran out of ammo.

Now I quote Phil Shoemaker for a paragraph about the necropsy of moose:

"Upon butchering, we found that two of John's bullets had struck low in the bull's chest,
but failed to expand and had done very little damage.
My single 500-grain Trophy Bonded bullet had taken out one rib going in,
completely removed the top of the animal's heart,
removed two ribs on the way out and was found under the hide on the offside.
It had expanded to over an inch in diameter and, considering the distance,
its velocity had to have been down somewhere around 1,100 fps.
It was impressive performance."

Phil has out-Sharpsed a Sharpshooter with his .458 WM, Old Ugly.
This thread is searchable for more on this famous firearm, pictures in this reply are from about page 134 of THE MISSION. tu2



Above, Hal Waugh's Big Nan (.375 WBY) and Phil Shoemaker's Old Ugly (.458 WM) meeting at an Alaska PH tea party.
Oh for the life of a guide !
Can you tell which one is Old Ugly ?
She weighs 9.25 pounds, loaded with ammo and scoped as shown, but not including flashlight of choice hung under barrel, IIRC.

.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Old Ugly is my favorite rifle of fame. It is everything a serious rifle should be, first of which is ever faithful.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2025 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Good stuff on 'old ugly' RIP, I like the fixed 2.5 or 3x Leupold clocked 90 degrees counter out of the way for faster reloading of the magazine, a fixed scope with standard duplex reticle wont care where it sits on the quarters, also like the larger than factory bolt knob, easier and surer to grip with a frozen hand I bet, built up with the same epoxy used to secure that piece of rail in the forearm?

A 'monster masher' and 'life saver' par excellence!
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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For THE MISSION I deleted the huge image of Old Ugly from page 134. It surely wreaked havoc with the PDF of Hannay. 4815 pixels wide !
In penance for that sin Old Ugly has been broken up into a legend photo to go with the a 5-part view of images of 1024 pixels or less.
Yep, that enlarged bolt knob and 2.5X scope turrets rotated 90 degrees are touches of genius.
Phil has said he used "Devcon liquid steel" to sculpt the bolt knob masterpiece.
On the left side of action he also "filed a thumb slot in Interarms MkX action in order to quickly reload."
Bubba is taking notes.
I have a MkX .458 WM in a Brown Precision stock that was errantly opened up to .458 Lott.
If THE GUNSMITH will agree to set the barrel back and rechamber it back to .458 WM,
and bob the other end of the barrel also, to 21" length overall,
Old Ugly will be imitated as a .458 TRUMP capable of 3.6" loads.
Same or greater performance at lower pressure than the .458 Lott or Old Ugly the original.
If THE GUNSMITH balks,
I have an extra .375 WBY that was made by re-chambering a .375 H&H MkX that will get re-barreled.
It also resides in a Brown Precision fiberglass stock.
"Ugly Girl" .458 TRUMP, fraternal twin sister to "Old Ugly" .458 WM is in the works.
Ugly girls can be very friendly. tu2

Maybe I could get the .375 WBY re-bored like Jerry did ?
I could just ship the barrel to JES Rifle Reboring for a simple re-bore from .375 to .458 so Bubba and THE GUNSMITH could do the "finish" work on Ugly Girl ?
Drat ! That one has been drilled for a Ruger No. 1 quarter rib on the barrel already.
Will require re-barrel if that one is used. Roll Eyes
 
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I still need to find some glow-in-dark tape to wrap the scope tube and barrel for a night-sighter.
Any old piece of rope and duct tape will do for the sling.
NO SLING SWIVEL STUDS ALLOWED !
quote:
Originally posted by Fury01:
Old Ugly is my favorite rifle of fame. It is everything a serious rifle should be, first of which is ever faithful.

Ditto.
And imitation is a sincere form of admiration.
Ugly Girl the .458 TRUMP imitates Old Ugly the .458 WM.
.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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More Old Ugly details:

Tigger pull weight is 5 pounds, on purpose.

MkX side safety was originally replaced with a left-sided wing safety/shroud, so as to be most ergonomic for a right-handed shooter.
But after some heavy use of M70 Winchesters one year,
with similar safety on right side of bolt,
Phil found himself slow to find the left-sided safety on Old Ugly.
Admitting that it was better to be hardwired for the right-sided M70 safety, he replaced Old Ugly's safety with a right-sided, two-position, wing safety,
as visible in latest portraiture of Old Ugly.

And another detail not understood by me is the thin band on the barrel in the forearm section.
Is this related to a since-removed sling stud or a locator for a barrel lug ? :

 
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The forend tip once had a protruding sling stud on it.
Now it might have a flush-mount swivel base ? :

 
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Old Ugly was younger in this photo (both of them, Phil and the rifle) and the forend tip stud can be seen here:

 
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In her youth, Old Ugly did not have the thumbcut on her left action side,
and she wore the Redfield JR type 2-piece (dovetail front and windage screw rear) scope bases,
left windage screw replaced with a Pilkington QD lever.
Inevitably wear loosen this contraption and the scope mounts were replaced with steel Leupold QRW bases and ye olde steel-strap Weaver rings: Bullet proof.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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From the GUN DIGEST 2021 75th Edition:

 
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The fold-down Redfield peep was moved to the Leupold QRW base.
Also from the GUN DIGEST 2021 75th Edition:





Just keeping up with GUN DIGEST, I have them all on CD or paper. Great books. tu2
 
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Krylon finish works on fiberglass and external metal,
which is still as glossy blue-black as when new.
Occasional touchup with any color spray paint you like will keep it that way despite hard use.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Big Grin Note grip cap: Night-sight/muzzle tape storage ?



The bolt throw of Ugly Girl .458 TRUMP will be the same as for Old Ugly .458 WM.
The factory MkX .375 H&H is opened at the front.
Seems to have never caused a problem.
I have used them for .340 WBY, .358 STA, .375 WBY.
The blasphemous .458 Lott was done on a .458 WM factory rifle that was opened frontward (magazine box and feed ramp) by THE GUNSMITH
and had just a small cut taken out of the right-side-rear of receiver ring so as to clear the bullet tips when loaded rounds were ejected.
A .458 TRUMP is easier on a rifle action than a .458 Lott, for equal or greater whomp delivered.
horse

.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
More Old Ugly details:

Tigger pull weight is 5 pounds, on purpose.

MkX side safety was originally replaced with a left-sided wing safety/shroud, so as to be most ergonomic for a right-handed shooter.
But after some heavy use of M70 Winchesters one year,
with similar safety on right side of bolt,
Phil found himself slow to find the left-sided safety on Old Ugly.
Admitting that it was better to be hardwired for the right-sided M70 safety, he replaced Old Ugly's safety with a right-sided, two-position, wing safety,
as visible in latest portraiture of Old Ugly.

And another detail not understood by me is the thin band on the barrel in the forearm section.
Is this related to a since-removed sling stud or a locator for a barrel lug ? :




I believe the band is a second recoil lug he fashioned himself
 
Posts: 6981 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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BaxterB, that makes most sense.
Old Ugly made the cover of RIFLE magazine in 2003 at the tender age of 19 y.o.
Now 36 years old, she is still going strong !



She was in a class by herself, "other bolt actions."
Title of article was "Beauty and the Beast"
and it was about Phil's rifle.
She is a beautiful beast, I reckon, if functional is beautiful.
 
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I guess that makes Phil a classy guy with a classy rifle always ready when he is not having to field test all those "pretty" custom rifles the makers are always sending to him for approval.



Next time I get a flat tire on my bicycle, I will get a new tube and use the old one for scope covers.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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It's too bad GD did not publish the color photos I had sent with the article. Or more of them.
And as for the "sling" I made during our Zimbabwe hunt last year, it was fabricated from an old discarded curtain laying on the floor of my hut.
I prefer carrying my rifle in my hand when hunting but as I was fortunate enough to have taken my bull and was just wandering along behind the PH, my daughter and son, who were all carrying rifles while I took photos, I made a sling. I hadn't even thought to bring mine.

And when I tested the 404 and 458 I was using factory ammo in both. Norma 400 gr Swifts in the 404 and Hornady 500 gr InnerBonds in the 458.


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3840 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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