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I held two cartridges between the fingers of my left hand as I pulled the trigger with my right hand.
Just in case the cardboard scrap on the dirt heap decided to charge, I was ready.
Three shots fired.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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No polishing of the chamber is needed.
It ejects vigorously and shoots where I point it.




Rifle functions perfectly so far.
Celebrity endorsement pending.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP is that the original stock? I had one of the stainless 45-70s but it was gray laminated.


I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever.
Take care.
smallfry
 
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
No doubt modern ammo has killed this particular virus. I just find it odd that we all know the squib load, compressed ammo story. However, I cannot find a first hand account, or what has changed to make compressed loads are fine today.

I ask for my personal knowledge desire, not bc I think the WM remains infected.

If Dirty Harry had not be pen distracted by some San Fran Strange. That 458WM with short barrel and compressed loads would have ended the story a lot sooner.


I can't find the reference right off hand but I believe the compressed powder "squib" load issue was limited to certain South African powders available at the time. I may be wrong on that. RIPster can edjumacate us further.
 
Posts: 8239 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
RIP: As all ways thank you for the knowledge and pictures.

This has given me new respect for the 458 WM.

I have two more questions: Every reloading manual will show compressed load data with a disclaimer that compressed loads are just fine. What was it about powders from the mid 60s that caused issues with squid loads due to compressed power with the 458 WM?

Has anyone read reliable, or have available first hand or primary source documentation of the compressed squid load problem? I have only read second had accounts 40 and 50 after the fact.


I don't recall the name of the guy, but a few years ago he posted a reply to a discussion on the overly-compressed charges of ball powder that Winchester supposedly used in the .458 Win that caused all the supposed problems. He was in charge of the loading machines that loaded the .458. He denied that, 1st of all, the loads were compressed, and 2nd, he also denied that a ball powder was used. He stated that the problem consisted in the fact of the movement of the cartridge from station to station for priming, powder charging and finally bullet seating. At each "station" the machinery stopped, and then started again to move on to the next, etc. This caused a sudden stop and restart when the powder was charged. Since there were, perhaps, hundreds (if not thousands) in a row that were being filled with powder, that would have meant hundreds of stops and starts before reaching the spot where the bullet seating mechanism was located. This herky-jerky movement caused powder to be spilled out, or shaken out. So none every contained the prescribed amount by the time they reached the bullet-seating operation. Also, it varied greatly as to the amount that actually remained in the case. Hence, very erratic results!

That was not, obviously, a story he made up, as he gave his creds, name and years working for Winchester, until the mechanical problem was solved, in which he was involved.

The old saying that: "A lie can travel around the world while the truth is getting its shoes on", is more truth than fiction! Oh my, how that applies to many areas of education and popular thinking.... not excluding the .458 Winchester Magnum, of course.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 772 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:


The old saying that: "A lie can travel around the world while the truth is getting its shoes on", is more truth than fiction! Oh my, how that applies to many areas of education and popular thinking.... not excluding the .458 Winchester Magnum, of course.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


So much truth in that Bob.

One of the things that strikes me is how hard it is to overcome incorrect "common knowledge" once it is adopted as gospel.
 
Posts: 8239 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Yes both WW and Rem at some point after introduction reduced loads to a reported 1800 FPS, now that may have been in a 20 inch barrel or whatever...

IMO, the 458 Win with a 24 to 26 inch barrel handloaded is a fine big bore rifle and any 500 gr, bullet at an honest 2000 FPS preferably 2100 or 2200 is all you will ever need for a well placed shot on any animal including elehant.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 39571 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Yes both WW and Rem at some point after introduction reduced loads to a reported 1800 FPS, now that may have been in a 20 inch barrel or whatever...

IMO, the 458 Win with a 24 to 26 inch barrel handloaded is a fine big bore rifle and any 500 gr, bullet at an honest 2000 FPS preferably 2100 or 2200 is all you will ever need for a well placed shot on any animal including elehant.


Around the 1970-71 I had two of the then Super Grade 458s and they had 22" barrel. On an Oehler Model 10 Chronograph (paper screens back then) the WW FMJs did 1960 f/s. Chronographed on the same day WW 375 270 grain Power Points did 2660 and the 300 grain Silvertips were 2440.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
RIP: As all ways thank you for the knowledge and pictures.

This has given me new respect for the 458 WM.

I have two more questions: Every reloading manual will show compressed load data with a disclaimer that compressed loads are just fine. What was it about powders from the mid 60s that caused issues with squid loads due to compressed power with the 458 WM?

Has anyone read reliable, or have available first hand or primary source documentation of the compressed squid load problem? I have only read second had accounts 40 and 50 after the fact.


I don't recall the name of the guy, but a few years ago he posted a reply to a discussion on the overly-compressed charges of ball powder that Winchester supposedly used in the .458 Win that caused all the supposed problems. He was in charge of the loading machines that loaded the .458. He denied that, 1st of all, the loads were compressed, and 2nd, he also denied that a ball powder was used. He stated that the problem consisted in the fact of the movement of the cartridge from station to station for priming, powder charging and finally bullet seating. At each "station" the machinery stopped, and then started again to move on to the next, etc. This caused a sudden stop and restart when the powder was charged. Since there were, perhaps, hundreds (if not thousands) in a row that were being filled with powder, that would have meant hundreds of stops and starts before reaching the spot where the bullet seating mechanism was located. This herky-jerky movement caused powder to be spilled out, or shaken out. So none every contained the prescribed amount by the time they reached the bullet-seating operation. Also, it varied greatly as to the amount that actually remained in the case. Hence, very erratic results!

That was not, obviously, a story he made up, as he gave his creds, name and years working for Winchester, until the mechanical problem was solved, in which he was involved.

The old saying that: "A lie can travel around the world while the truth is getting its shoes on", is more truth than fiction! Oh my, how that applies to many areas of education and popular thinking.... not excluding the .458 Winchester Magnum, of course.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


Thank you. Jimm Carmaical reported that in a story he wrote for Outdoor Life before he retired.

Capstick reported that he was culling elephant and the last round of his 458 WM squib loaded. He blamed the bottom round in the magazine being beaten down in the case. I do not have the same problems some have with him. However, this did not make sense to me. Driving the bullet into the case p, if that happened, should have raised pressure thus velocity.

Seems the myth does not hold up to scrutiny. My mind is changing on the 458WM.
 
Posts: 5877 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
I can't find the reference right off hand but I believe the compressed powder "squib" load issue was limited to certain South African powders available at the time. I may be wrong on that.

No that is factually incorrect as the problems with the 458 was with early loadings by WW.
long ( 20 years plus) before Somchem even made powders for reloading and way way before PMP loaded local ammo !

As to the references I can get them for you. I have early copies of Man Magnum and there are articles with "who and when" were involved.


Like I said, I could be wrong on that. Guess I was.
 
Posts: 8239 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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AA2230 saved the 458WM.Before that there was to much pressure to even get 2150 fps.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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I agree 2230 has made the 458 able to go faster but disagree it “saved” the 458. I think decades of success on big and biggest game saved it.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2117 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Just to make the point once again: THE GUY (don't recall his name) POSTED ON THIS FORUM HIS COMMENTS ABOUT A PROBLEM AT WINCHESTER WHEN HE WAS LOADING .458 AMMO.

THIS WAS NOT A STORY BY CARMICHAEL!

Like I said: That person wrote his own story that was too authentic for it to be a hoax!

AND, as RIP has reported, White Laboratories did tests of original Winchester .458 ammo, as well as some others, that easily met, and in some cases, exceeded specs in MV. I read that many years ago in a LYMAN reloading manual.

In addition, my personal friend, Glendon Rae went to Kenya for work as a teacher/administrator at the Rift Valley Academy in 1961. He took two new rifles for hunting: both Winchester M70s: a .300 Win Mag and a .458 Win Mag. He was not a handloader but used mostly Winchester cartridges. He hunted every year, as a resident hunter, until hunting was shut down. In the process, he shot many plains game and many elephant and Cape buffalo. When he returned on furlough after each fourth year, he and family paid us a visit and gave many hunting reports. Never once did he complain about the .458 ammo having squib loads. Whatever the MV was, he was more than satisfied with the results.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 772 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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One other thing I'd intended to mention: AA2230 didn't "save" the .458 WM. Long before I ever owned a can of it, I was getting 2200 fps from 500s from H335 and H4895, from the CZ550 and its 25" barrel without ANY indications of excess pressure. That was ten years ago!

I published a manual about that, and showed by photos that it was capable of exceeding the Lott because of a longer COL permitted by the long magazine and very-long throat!

H335 is recommended by Hornady for BOTH the .458 Win and Lott, even though they got 50 fps more from AA2230 in the 24" Win test barrel. Bullets seated to SAAMI specs.

After my considerable testing using H335, WLRM primers and Win cases, I finally got some AA2230 and gave a short run with it. It was very good but not that much better than H335. Right now, I have several loads ready to go using AA2230 as soon as the weather gets a bit warmer. Today, we've had snow and temps are freezing!

That's not to put down anyone's results using AA2230, and I fully appreciate those results, especially from RIP, but the point I'm making is that the .458 Win is capable of at least 2200 fps from 500s from several powders at Lott psi and equal barrel lengths. RIP has attained OVER 2300 fps from the 500gr TSX and AA2230. I've attained, in 2010, 2283 fps from the 500gr Hornady seated "long" in my former CZ550 employing H4895. And that was easy! The same load in my current Ruger No.1 Tropical gave an "easy" 2251 fps/5625 ft-lbs.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 772 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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https://gundigest.com/gear-amm...rous-game-cartridges

According to this source, it was the clumping of the powder used that caused the “Squib” load

I also agree with the opinion of the traditional 465 or 480 grain leadings. Why 500 grains? Because it is a big round number? 450 grains is .306 SD and that is plenty for all but elephants, right? I see 400 grains as a not too shabby .272 SD for this case and would be quite capable for all my needs if I had this cartridge. Since this cartridge is not a “Stopper” round I would probably lean towards the 400 tribe diameter instead for a bolt action gun. I do love me some 458 NE though.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 27497 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
AA2230 saved the 458WM.Before that there was to much pressure to even get 2150 fps.



clap shootaway strikes again, bullseye, if idiocy is the target archer homer
The .458 Win.Mag. has never been factory loaded to more than 60,000 psi (SAAMI MAP), they used to call it 53,000 CUP (SAAMI MAP).
It is the .458 Lott that had to have an increase in allowable pressure (to 62,500 psi, SAAMI MAP) in order to have any chance of competing with the .458 WIN.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
... the problems with the 458 was with early loadings by WW.
long ( 20 years plus) before Somchem even made powders for reloading and way way before PMP loaded local ammo !

As to the references I can get them for you. I have early copies of Man Magnum and there are articles with "who and when" were involved.


I hope ALF can post some specifics from MAN MAGNUM. That would be great, for THE MISSION. tu2

Bob's report on the herky-jerky factory powder spillage has been noted: Trust but verify.

I do not think that there is one anecdotal explanation to explain it all.

It would be good to catalog all the possibilities, and put the last nail in the coffin of nonsense.

Pierre van der Walt wrote this on pp. 325-326 of AFRICAN DANGEROUS GAME CARTRIDGES:

"... I am convinced that quite a hash was also made with the manufacturing of .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition.

"Daan van Heerden and I once pulled bullets from still sealed boxes of old Winchester .458 factory ammunition.
The results were perplexing. I could not believe that coming from the same box,
some cartridges were loaded with ball propellant and others with extruded propellant!
How that happened I cannot explain.
Measuring the ball loads and extruded loads separately we could not even determine
what the intended load for each actually was supposed to have been!
This variation was consistent throughout all the old boxes we checked that day.

"Another problem identified in Zimbabwe by A-Square was that the coating on the granules
of compressed loads of ball propellant caused the propellant to congeal into lumps.
Combustion subsequently was incomplete and muzzle velocities as low as about 1650 fps were recorded."


Let us list more reports from the past, for THE MISSION.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Potential celebrity spokesperson for the .458 WIN.
He was signing autographs at the NRA convention yesterday:





Some people sleep with a gun under their pillow.
Chuck Norris sleeps with a pillow under his .458 Winchester Magnum.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I talked to the Shootist of the data in the SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO, in person at the NRA Convention, yesterday.
He acknowledged that the .458 WIN.MAG. data was not re-shot with the new .457"-diameter bullet, they simply copied the old .458"-diameter A-Frame bullet data,
and pretended that it was shot with .457"-diameter bullets.
Safe. Close but no cigar!
He says he is planning to re-shoot the .458 WIN.MAG. data for SWIFT manual No. 3.
I tried talking him into using some AA-2230 next time.

I pointed out to him that the Western Powders manual shows a 500-grain Hornady RNSP at over 2150 fps, and less than 54,000 PSI, and less than 3.340" COL.
from a 24" barrel, using a NON-COMPRESSED charge of AA-2230.

With the 500-grain Swift A-Frame, he has an extra 6000 PSI to play with to stay within SAAMI MAP of 60,000 PSI for the .458 WIN.MAG.

He just might do it.
He says he usually stops when he gets within 800 PSI of the SAAMI MAP.

It is obvious that Western Powders data for the .458 WIN.MAG. stopped short of compression, because
they had the 500-grainer over 2150 fps in a 24" barrel, with less than 3.340" COL, at less than 54,000 PSI.
Perfection.
Just what Chuck Norris ordered.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I also talked to a young man from Winchester, at the NRA Convention.
He is Product Manager/Logistics Manager.
He said there are no plans to discontinue the M70 .458 WIN.MAG. rifle and ammo.
Limited production maybe, but it is forever. tu2
We also talked about the lovely walnut & blue M70 Alaskan .375 H&H.
Sales are petering out on it, and he is thinking about doing it in stainless again, because a lot of the Real Alaskan Hunters (and Wannabees) ask for it.
I suggested that the dream .375 H&H rifle there would be the same metal conformation, except in stainless, as in the current M70 Alaskan,
and in a Bell&Carlson Medalist-type stock like used on their Extreme Weather model M70,
instead of the rude laminate stock used in that limited run of 200 in 2012 model year only.
Fingers crossed.

It would be sweet to re-barrel that one to .458 WIN LongCOL.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
I also talked to a young man from Winchester, at the NRA Convention.
He is Product Manager/Logistics Manager.
He said there are no plans to discontinue the M70 .458 WIN.MAG. rifle and ammo.
Limited production maybe, but it is forever. tu2
We also talked about the lovely walnut & blue M70 Alaskan .375 H&H.
Sales are petering out on it, and he is thinking about doing it in stainless again, because a lot of the Real Alaskan Hunters (and Wannabees) ask for it.
I suggested that the dream .375 H&H rifle there would be the same metal conformation, except in stainless, as in the current M70 Alaskan,
and in a Bell&Carlson Medalist-type stock like used on their Extreme Weather model M70,
instead of the rude laminate stock used in that limited run of 200 in 2012 model year only.
Fingers crossed.

It would be sweet to re-barrel that one to .458 WIN LongCOL.
tu2
Rip ...

I had virtually the same conversation with someone at Winchester 3 months back. The just of it was that the more people that bug them about it, the more likely it was going to happen. That would be nice.


I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever.
Take care.
smallfry
 
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001Reply With Quote
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smallfry,

Thanks for the reply.
We'll soon get this thread to 460 pages.
Great minds think alike: Stainless Alaskan in B&C stock.
I would even settle for a fluted slick barrel of 25" length,
or a stainless, dognutted barrel that is fluted only muzzleward of the dognutt rear sight base.
But I would really prefer a stainless copy of the chromoly barreled action. tu2

Your double sortie here in support of THE MISSION reminded me of this one:

quote:
Originally posted by smallfry:
RIP is that the original stock? I had one of the stainless 45-70s but it was gray laminated.


Yes, Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger's stock is factory original.
That is a natural-light, indirect-sunlight, late-afternoon, in-the-shade photo on my asphalt driveway.
The white/grey specs might be bird droppings, on the driveway, not on the rifle.
So I guess the stock is neither the older brown/tan laminate, nor the later grey-striped-looking laminate.
Seems to be a tan/grey laminate. Maybe a transitional phase, "Black Pepper & Caramel" flavor?
I like it OK.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Mike Lagrange's BALLISTICS IN PERSPECTIVE, Second Edition, 1990, pg.25:

"Since the the original publication of this booklet, ammunition purchased by the Department of National Parks and Wild Life Management in Zimbabwe has been obtained through A Square in the U.S.A.
This ammunition is individually checked and loaded to original factory specifications producing a muzzle velocity of 2,130 ft/sec using 500 Hornady bullets.
The results on culls of several thousand elephant and buffalo have shown a marked improvement compared to other brands of commercial ammunition,
which produced insufficient penetration on frontal shots to the head of large elephant bulls.
The improvement from 2,040 ft/sec to 2,130 ft/sec has made a caliber which had become inadequate into one that is now totally reliable."

Notice that Lagrange did not single out only the "factory-hashed" Winchester .458 WIN ammo.

But he did present on page 32, a table of chronograph tests, a simple one,
produced by a Mr. Oliver Coltman at Marangora:

TABLE 13
"Chronograph velocity tests for .458 Winchester using four bullets from different batch numbers selected at random."
(I assume he meant four different cartridges, one each from four different lots of factory ammo. Barrel length is not specified.)

Sample ............................... Velocity ft/sec

1. Winchester 500 grn F.M.J. ........ 2048
2. Winchester 500 grn F.M.J. ........ 2083
3. Winchester 500 grn F.M.J. ........ 2147
4. Winchester 500 grn F.M.J. ........ 2007

"An average of four sample = 2071 ft/sec."


Lagrange noted that by then, the Winchester factory ammo was being advertised at only 2,040 fps (4,758 ft-lbs), no barrel length specified.
"Unfortunate."

He also noted on page 33:
"A batch of .470 ammunition from B.E.L.L. recently, consistently produced 1,950 ft/sec over the chronograph resulting in appalling penetration."

This .470 NE data (of unspecified barrel length in a double rifle) was with 500-grainer supposed to be doing 2,125 fps (5,030 ft-lbs).
He found that he could easily handload this .470 NE to 2,150 fps with 103 grains of IMR-4831:
"Thereafter the bullets performed superbly."

Conclusion by Lagrange:

"Using A Square ammunition with the correct loading I now personally favor the use of the .458 Winchester for dangerous work."

Higher sectional density of same weight bullet of same construction, at same velocity: WINner.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Moral of the story: Be sure the ammo has not been "hashed" by the factory.
Best to roll your own, handloads.
horse

The Swift Bullet Company Shootist said he was greatly annoyed by the tight throat of the .458 Lott.
If he had his druthers he would use a .458 WIN,
or if stuck with a .458 Lott he would give it a longer throat.
But he is stuck with SAAMI restrictions for the load data he generates.

He said he sometimes had a ring of brass stuck in his barrel from a .458 Lott case neck following the bullet muzzleward on firing those red-faced .458 Lott loads.
Creates a barrel obstruction.
I do not understand that, coming from a SAAMI .458 Lott.
The .458 Lott is obviously not "Perfection," unlike the .458 WIN.
I do know that the brass of the .458 Lott neck does need shortening greatly to allow some bullets to fit inside of SAAMI COL restriction.
But I thought you were supposed to do that with a case trimmer, not by "fire-shortening."
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Ah Ollie Coltman Wink

He also found his way South and he did my 44 Ruger Redhawk for me tu2
He Magnaported the barrel put a Deep V for rear blade and a gold bead front sight !

Then JD Jones came out in 86 and I bought his 375 JDJ off him after his safari. He also brought me a double cavity mold for his 320 gr bullet for the 44 !
I after that I almost exclusively used the 320 gr in the 44


Oliver Coltman was a handgun-gunsmith. That is appropriate. tu2
JDJ an old chum too?
Did your Pop brain that elephant with a 320-gr. load from the .44 revolver?
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Another contestant for Ms. 458 WIN of 2020, Mrs. Chuck Norris:



Chuck does pretty good for a 79-year-old.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
smallfry,

Thanks for the reply.
We'll soon get this thread to 460 pages.
Great minds think alike: Stainless Alaskan in B&C stock.
I would even settle for a fluted slick barrel of 25" length,
or a stainless, dognutted barrel that is fluted only muzzleward of the dognutt rear sight base.
But I would really prefer a stainless copy of the chromoly barreled action. tu2

Your double sortie here in support of THE MISSION reminded me of this one:

quote:
Originally posted by smallfry:
RIP is that the original stock? I had one of the stainless 45-70s but it was gray laminated.


Yes, Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger's stock is factory original.
That is a natural-light, indirect-sunlight, late-afternoon, in-the-shade photo on my asphalt driveway.
The white/grey specs might be bird droppings, on the driveway, not on the rifle.
So I guess the stock is neither the older brown/tan laminate, nor the later grey-striped-looking laminate.
Seems to be a tan/grey laminate. Maybe a transitional phase, "Black Pepper & Caramel" flavor?
I like it OK.
tu2
Rip ...


You have no idea how many projects are backed up in my head waiting on those stainless 375s.

They made a run of 45-70 R#1s stainless again but in walnut. Still buying one though. I hear Ruger won’t put a laminate on if I asked.


I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever.
Take care.
smallfry
 
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001Reply With Quote
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I saw the SAASI drawings for the Lott and Win Mag chambers.It is hard to tell where pressures will be just from looking at those.Hodgdon has pressure listed for the 458Win Mag with powders that can be used with the the Lott.It does not list 458 Lott pressures.If it did you can compare both and see how effective the long throat is in reducing pressure.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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smallfry,

I saw the stainless/walnut Ruger No.1 at the local emporium in .45-70 and .30-30, most tempting, those two.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Dear shootaway BOOM homer

I get it now, the Three Stooges did physical slapstick humor,
but you do mental slapstick humor.
Thanks for supporting THE MISSION, however hilariously it may be.
Jokes welcome, Chuck Norris facts welcome too.

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
I saw the SAASI animal
Just being Sassy not Sammie eh? This is a prime example shootaway's brand of mental slapstick humor.
drawings for the Lott and Win Mag chambers.
It is hard to tell where pressures will be just from looking at those. animal

Hodgdon has pressure listed for the 458Win Mag with powders that can be used with the the Lott.

IIRC, those old Hodgdon numbers for the .458 WIN have not changed in a long time,
and the pressures were listed in the outmoded CUP system.
Old SAAMI standard was MAP of 53,000 CUP for the .458 WIN.
New SAAMI standard is MAP of 60,000 PSI for the .458 WIN.
New SAAMI standard is MAP of 62,500 PSI for the .458 Lott.


It does not list 458 Lott pressures. If it did you can compare both and see how effective the long throat is in reducing pressure.


Other sources can be found that do list chamber pressures for both in PSI.
We have done the comparison many times in this thread. I will look at the Hodgdon data again to humor shootaway BOOM homer
It is miraculous how effective that SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is in reducing pressure.
You can fix your SAAMI .458 Lott right up with that throat.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Dear shootaway BOOM homer

I get it now, the Three Stooges did physical slapstick humor,
but you do mental slapstick humor.
Thanks for supporting THE MISSION, however hilariously it may be.
Jokes welcome, Chuck Norris facts welcome too.

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
I saw the SAASI animal
Just being Sassy not Sammie eh? This is a prime example shootaway's brand of mental slapstick humor.
drawings for the Lott and Win Mag chambers.
It is hard to tell where pressures will be just from looking at those. animal

Hodgdon has pressure listed for the 458Win Mag with powders that can be used with the the Lott.

IIRC, those old Hodgdon numbers for the .458 WIN have not changed in a long time,
and the pressures were listed in the outmoded CUP system.
Old SAAMI standard was MAP of 53,000 CUP for the .458 WIN.
New SAAMI standard is MAP of 60,000 PSI for the .458 WIN.
New SAAMI standard is MAP of 62,500 PSI for the .458 Lott.


It does not list 458 Lott pressures. If it did you can compare both and see how effective the long throat is in reducing pressure.


Other sources can be found that do list chamber pressures for both in PSI.
We have done the comparison many times in this thread. I will look at the Hodgdon data again to humor shootaway BOOM homer
It is miraculous how effective that SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is in reducing pressure.
You can fix your SAAMI .458 Lott right up with that throat.
tu2
Rip ...

Can you give me a link to a good source that shows pressures for both cartridges using the same bullet and powder? You probably can't.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Can you give me a link to a good source that shows pressures for both cartridges using the same bullet and powder? You probably can't.


Patience, jackass, patience. If you want me to spoon feed you,
then it is on my schedule, since your comprehension of the last 125 pages is so poor.
Asking you to scan through 125 pages of this thread to find what you want is asking too much, I know.
If I get really bored and have nothing better to do, I will help you out.
I will post a "shootaway ALERT" like this whenever I feel like it.
Like this:

ALERT ON:

shootaway BOOM homer

... Insert 5th-grade reading level material here ...
shootaway BOOM homer
ALERT OFF

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.

There is a dearth of pressure-tested .458 Lott data, since it is so embarrassing to .458 Lott owners.
There is lots of pressure tested data on the .458 WIN.
Western Powders Co. AA-2230 pressure data with same bullet in both cartridges does exist but they load the non-compressed SAAMI .458 WIN to sub-54,000-PSI,
while they load a SAAMI .458 Lott to 60,000 psi,
not the best comparison.
That might be confusing for shootaway.

tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Shootway did not shoot a cow buffalo. Chuck Norris changed the bull he shot into a cow.

Chuck Norris can shoot a 458 Lott in a 458 WM chambered rifle.

The 458 Lott was not standardized with a short throat. It shrunk when Chuck Norris walked by with a 458 WM.

Yes, I own a standardized Lott.

What the hell, Mark Sullen let the Lott choose what throat dimension.
 
Posts: 5877 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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Speaking with the SWIFT BULLET COMPANY Shootist:
He was surprised by the switch from .458"-diameter to .457"-diameter A-Frame bullets.
He agreed that those A-Frame bullets generate more pressure for a given charge of powder, but being the company man,
he said that the A-Frame therefore generates more velocity for a given charge of powder.

I suggested to him that maybe the switch was made to allow pressure reduction for the .458 Lott load data that was finally included in their NUMBER TWO manual.
He had no comment on that.

It is easier to add more powder to a SAAMI .458 Lott, than it is to add more powder to a SAAMI .458 WIN.MAG.
A switch to .457" would be detrimental to the .458 WIN, unless you are allowed to load to longer, non-SAAMI, COL.
But the Swift Shootist is stuck with staying within SAAMI for all his loads.
I do not expect that .457" bullets will improve the SAAMI .458 WIN.
I think it was a move to save face for the .458 Lott, allowing the SAAMI .458 Lott not to exceed its SAAMI limit on pressure, at pathetic velocity.

Hornady found something like this with their early testing to start loading the .458 Lott:

3.34" SAAMI .458 WIN 500-grainer: 2200 fps and 60,000 psi.
3.60" SAAMI .458 Lott 500-grainer: 2250 fps and 62,500 psi.
Whoo-hoo!
horse
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Chuck Norris gave up on the 458 Lott before he let Winchester develop the 458 Win Mag.

Chuck Norris built the house he grew up in.


I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever.
Take care.
smallfry
 
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
Shootway did not shoot a cow buffalo. Chuck Norris changed the bull he shot into a cow.

That is kind of humorous, just wondering why Chuck Norris would bother. rotflmo
Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by smallfry:
Chuck Norris gave up on the 458 Lott before he let Winchester develop the 458 Win Mag.

Chuck Norris built the house he grew up in.

yuck

Carlos Ray Norris (born March 10, 1940)


Chuck Norris facts!
Yes, Chuck was still living at home in the house he built at birth, when he perfected his design of the .458 Winchester Magnum on his 15th birthday, March 10, 1955.
He told Winchester to get to work on it for 1956 release, to save safari hunting.
The rest is history.
Thank you, Chuck Norris.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The "booklet" cover, 1990 second edition:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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PAC warden Mike Lagrange is reported to have shot over 6000 elephants in Zimbabwe prior to 1990.
He used a .470 NE DR handloaded to 2150 fps with 500-grainer, instead of factory loaded 1950 fps.

That was only until he decided he preferred the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. bolt action, reliably loaded by A-Square Co. to 2130 fps with Hornady 500-grain FMJ,
instead of factory hash from whatever maker.

He ought to know, balancing ballistics and user-friendly function,
for a PAC warden's use.
"Ballistics In Perspective" is a great title.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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