On another note, if my calculations are correct, with the taper of the 375 HH brass it makes it easy for you to make a wild kitten. Cut the case at 1.3” or 1.4” and stuff with 45-70 bullets for 458 midget class wheel gun fun.

boom stick,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
We remember you bringing us the link to Lee Martin's .458 Devastator (1.4") wheelgun circa 1993,
which led to Ross Seyfried's .458 Belted Behemoth (1.6") wheelgun circa 1996.
That was recent in this thread, on page 117 of this thread.
My how time flies!
Ross Seyfried just could not leave well enough alone on that one, I reckon.
Yes, a ".458 Belted Boomstick (1.3")" would do me just fine in a couple of Ruger Super Blackhawks.
One with a 3" barrel for Sunday go to meetin' and one with a 6.5" barrel for a truck gun.

Rip ...

Blast from the past, my favorite 450-grain softpoint load in the .458 WIN LongCOL, Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ really liked the 450-grain TSX treated with Tubb's hBN:

25" Shilen barrel 1:14", "Light Varmint" #5 sporter contour
82.0 grains of AA-2230
COL 3.680"-3.685" crimped with Lee FCD on 4th/last cannelure
Hornady brass 2.495"-2.500" trim (the wildcat .458 WIN LongCOL has a max brass length of 2.505")
GM215M primer
0.33 MOA for 3 shots
2448 fps MV with standard deviation of 2 fps for those 3 shots.
What the heck, just call it a 2450 fps 450-grainer in a 25" barrel.
Hard to beat as a magazine-fed six-or-seven-shooter load in the CZ.
And I used to think that 2400 fps for a 400-grainer was the ultimate for a .458 WIN.
Not anymore.

Rip ...

For THE MISSION, I bring a peek at the origin of the .450-bore sporting rifle in 1600's England.
Documented on the wall of The Tate in London:



It was the hottest new rabbit rifle back then,
a wheellock rifle of .450-bore, some were even breechloaders!
A piece fit for The Gentleman to the Bedchamber of The King and Ambassador to Spain,
while Charles the First still had his head.
Lightyears ahead of the .70- to .90-bore matchlock, smoothbore muskets the soldiers of the day soldiered onward with, into the next century.
My 9th-Great Grandfather on my Mother's side was on the cutting edge of technology then:



That is my brother's friend holding a picture of my brother's dog next to the portrait for a family get-together.
I wonder if she got permission from the museum guards?
Gunnuttery may be genetic.

Rip ...

The dude in the picture looks remarkably like Sir Endymion (a link with the NO Mardi Gras?) Porter, as painted by Anthony van Dyck, so I googled it. It seems it was Sir Endymion but the artist was William Dobson.

The formula referenced here ''very well may be'' summarized in the 458 win mag

RIP,

My next go-around will be in using AA2230 with the 450s -- both TSX and Swift. Also, a plan to try H4895 and H335 (again), and 2230 under the Hornady 500 RN Interlocs to see what differences there might be between the results I received from the CZ550 with a 25" barrel and the #1 Ruger with porting and its 24".

I now know that I could go "hotter" with the Ruger than I have thus far.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The dude in the picture looks remarkably like Sir Endymion (a link with the NO Mardi Gras?) Porter, as painted by Anthony van Dyck, so I googled it. It seems it was Sir Endymion but the artist was William Dobson.

sambarman338,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
Gramps Porter and the Endymion Krewe of N'awlins Mardis Gras fame were both named after the same character from the Greek and Roman mythology.
Endymion was a hunter/shepherd, and some say he was an astronomer since he studied The Moon Goddess so much.
By the time the Romans got hold of the myth they switched Endymion's admiration for Selene to Diana, goddess of the hunt, who pretty much took over Moon Goddess duties.
Anyway Diana WAS a heavenly body, and she thought Endymion had one too.



That sucker got eternal youth and beauty bestowed upon him by the goddess of the hunt!
Just like the .458 WIN!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_and_Endymion

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
The formula referenced here ''very well may be'' summarized in the 458 win mag

Good one.
The eternally youthful, handsome and lethal .458 WIN.
There ain't no better hunter.
It calls to us like the horn of the hunter.

BTW,
Here is a picture of the SAAMI .458 Lott trying to horn in on the .458 WIN:



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
RIP,

My next go-around will be in using AA2230 with the 450s -- both TSX and Swift ...
... I now know that I could go "hotter" with the Ruger than I have thus far.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob, I have pretty much duplicated your work with the 350-grain TSX bullet. I trust your handloading recipes greatly.
Looking forward to seeing what you get with the 450-grain TSX.
I found that about 2450 fps MV is easy in a 25" Shilen barrel,
though I did use Tubb's hBN powder on the bullets.
That might have lowered pressure AND velocity some for any given charge.
See above listed load specs.

I did go as high as 84.0 grains of AA-2230.
I had no pressure signs at the higher charge but was getting reducing returns per grain of powder and a higher Sd's
so settled on 82.0 grains as preferred.

AA-2230:
82.0 grains >>> 2448 fps MV
84.0 grains >>> 2469 fps MV

I need to repeat the exercise without hBN powder and see how much difference it makes.
Your testing will be a pointer in that direction, if you don't use the hBN powder.

Rip ...

To anyone who would have me give up my .458 WINners for a SAAMI .458 Lott loser I say:



Rip ...

early bullet tips

best in class hunters



-----4-458 win mag's-- a 460 wby center-- and a 416 taylor far right [ all work] 458 seems ''from this photo'' to be the standard load-----

have always recognized the benefit of multiple weight and shape in bullet tips for larger and very large dangerous game

the natural evolution led us to the apex 458 formulae

keep up the good work Bob and Ripp

by the way-- in those days it was all home brew loads

LOVING THE BIG BANG - is --on the face of it--- not an original idea--- Bob

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:


The formula referenced here ''very well may be'' summarized in the 458 win mag

Seems to me that the formulae in Horn for the Hunter is summed up in the 416 Rigby in the hands of Harry Selby.

(Today that has been duplicated in a smaller package, the 416 Ruger, whether in a 20" Alaskan version or 23" African version.)
Hey nothing wrong with a 458wm, or even various 500's, for that matter, just ringing the bell with a little perspective.

To be honest, it doesn't really matter which of these rifles is in one's hands. The important thing is to be able to walk the forest and wilds with that sense of exhiliration that is hunting. And there is nothing like doing that in Africa.

well-- you do have me-- on that point

The reason I brought that up was I thought that would be an easy way to make cartridges and less fiddle with inside neck reaming. I don’t know if a thick neck wall thickness would hamper a revolver function.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
boom stick,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
We remember you bringing us the link to Lee Martin's .458 Devastator (1.4") wheelgun circa 1993,
which led to Ross Seyfried's .458 Belted Behemoth (1.6") wheelgun circa 1996.
That was recent in this thread, on page 117 of this thread.
My how time flies!
Ross Seyfried just could not leave well enough alone on that one, I reckon.
Yes, a ".458 Belted Boomstick (1.3")" would do me just fine in a couple of Ruger Super Blackhawks.
One with a 3" barrel for Sunday go to meetin' and one with a 6.5" barrel for a truck gun.

Rip ...

Great work guys, a real racket of bell ringing, for THE MISSION.
I especially liked the spear points analogy.
I am waiting for 7.25-pound Bobbee Boom Boom Ruger, fiddling with paper-patching.
Here is a review of scope mounting on an 8-lb 2-oz .458 WIN, Ms. Chimera WinCZechster, a very interesting rifle by Maj. Whelen standards:



The rifle that Harry Selby chose to use while his worn-out .416 Rigby was getting rebuilt: .458 WIN

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The dude in the picture looks remarkably like Sir Endymion (a link with the NO Mardi Gras?) Porter, as painted by Anthony van Dyck, so I googled it. It seems it was Sir Endymion but the artist was William Dobson.

sambarman338,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
Gramps Porter and the Endymion Krewe of N'awlins Mardis Gras fame were both named after the same character from the Greek and Roman mythology.
Endymion was a hunter/shepherd, and some say he was an astronomer since he studied The Moon Goddess so much.
By the time the Romans got hold of the myth they switched Endymion's admiration for Selene to Diana, goddess of the hunt, who pretty much took over Moon Goddess duties.
Anyway Diana WAS a heavenly body, and she thought Endymion had one too.



That sucker got eternal youth and beauty bestowed upon him by the goddess of the hunt!
Just like the .458 WIN!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_and_Endymion

Rip ...

I've got to tell you, RIP, that Selene still rules the roost around here. And she's not happy. Four weeks for a bear hunt in Alberta then 10 days in the Northern Territory chasing buffalo were tolerated without comment but when I said I was going duck shooting on Tuesday all hell broke loose.

What's that about straw breaking a camel's back?

(Finally able to edit this one but not the follower, I urge you to read it instead.)

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The dude in the picture looks remarkably like Sir Endymion (a link with the NO Mardi Gras?) Porter, as painted by Anthony van Dyck, so I googled it. It seems it was Sir Endymion but the artist was William Dobson.

sambarman338,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
Gramps Porter and the Endymion Krewe of N'awlins Mardis Gras fame were both named after the same character from the Greek and Roman mythology.
Endymion was a hunter/shepherd, and some say he was an astronomer since he studied The Moon Goddess so much.
By the time the Romans got hold of the myth they switched Endymion's admiration for Selene to Diana, goddess of the hunt, who pretty much took over Moon Goddess duties.
Anyway Diana WAS a heavenly body, and she thought Endymion had one too.



That sucker got eternal youth and beauty bestowed upon him by the goddess of the hunt!
Just like the .458 WIN!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_and_Endymion

Rip ...

I've got to tell you, RIP, that Selene still rules the roost around here. And, working nightshift like the moon, she's not happy. Four weeks for a bear hunt in Alberta then 10 days in the Northern Territory chasing buffalo were tolerated without comment but when I said I was going duck shooting on Tuesday all hell broke loose.

What's that about straw breaking a camel's back?

(Forgive the repetition of this post. I wanted to alter the wording but the first one would not let me edit it for some reason. On the up side, it helps the mission )

Just an FYI for 458 Win Mag fans...Midway is selling out Norma 458 WM brass in 25 and 50 piece quantities at $0.90/each plus SH. Just bought 100 cases for $44.99/50. See Norma 458 Win Mag Brass Sale. Excellent quality brass and low price, hard to beat that combination.

Thanks
Paul

ON PAGE 61 OF THE WOODLEIGH RELOADING MANUAL

narrative goes that BSA influenced many of winchesters decisions to produce guns

or stimulated would be better put

specifically the 26 BSA 33 BSA AND THE 40 BSA

the 40 experimental BUILT USING A P-14 ACTION on a trip to africa got the hunter killed by an elephant and the gun crushed

with the claim that this wildcat stimulated Winchester to move on the .458 FIRST AND LATER .264 & .338

would like to know more on the backstory for all that --NEW TO ME

sambarman338,

Tell your Selene a cautionary myth about Endymion taking up with a new goddess of the hunt.
May your goddess of the hunt be with you.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Reed:
... Just bought 100 cases for $44.99/50. See Norma 458 Win Mag Brass Sale.

Bada bing!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
ON PAGE 61 OF THE WOODLEIGH RELOADING MANUAL

narrative goes that BSA influenced many of winchesters decisions to produce guns

or stimulated would be better put

specifically the 26 BSA 33 BSA AND THE 40 BSA

the 40 experimental BUILT USING A P-14 ACTION on a trip to africa got the hunter killed by an elephant and the gun crushed

with the claim that this wildcat stimulated Winchester to move on the .458 FIRST AND LATER .264 & .338

would like to know more on the backstory for all that --NEW TO ME

stradling,

You get an A+ for effort on that stretch.
That is an interesting bit of trivia:
Circa 1920's BSA: .26, .33, .40
Circa 1950's WIN: .264, .338, .458
all on same basis .375 H&H parent case.
BSA may have been inspirational for a Winchester caliber progression,
brought to grand fulfillment by the .458 WIN.
The bigger influences toward the perfection of the .458 WIN, ballistic building blocks, the Big Four,
were already listed, but I concede that BSA deserves some credit here.
They will become Number 5 of the pantheon:

The Big Five Ancestors of the .458 WIN:

John Rigby
Holland & Holland
Westley Richards
Birmingham Small Arms Co.
James Watts

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
40 BSA being the stimulus for Winchester to go 458 ?

Damn they were slow because the 40 BSA was a cartridge designed in 1921 off the 375 H&H case, did not last long, rare as were the rifles they were built on ........... sooo jump 30 and more years forward and we have the 458 ?

The link between the 40 BSA and the 458 Win seems tenuous at best

More I think about it, more I see it as not such a stretch, surely an inspirational relationship, for a similar progression made good by going bigger to .458.
If neccessity is the mother of invention, then inspiration is the gleam in the eye of the father of invention.
I wonder about the reported "elephant-kills-.40-BSA-bwana" story.
Was the bullet used the problem there, not the cartridge?
I will go look in the Eley book,
and I have Bill Fleming's "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges: A Summary of Case Types, Headstamps, Bullets, and Charge Variations" on order,
found one used for $325, price commensurate with length of title, in this "case type."

Rip ...

The "Eley Book" above was previously "reviewed."
Detail of above book cover shown below:

Look at that!
If the .450 Nitro Express married the .40 BSA, what do you get?
The .458 WIN.

Rip ...

C. W. Harding had little to say about the .40 BSA aka .400 BSA.
Pg. 70:

Pg. 91:

Another book previously reviewed here tells us some loading details:

And rifle details:

So it appears that the .40 BSA toting Bwana that got stomped might have been trying to hunt elephant with a .400-caliber/250-grain Remington Bronze Point equivalent.
A varmint bullet!
And his P14 Enfield magazine rifle was destroyed too?
No wonder.
That elephant was very angry after that bee sting.

So it appears Hoyem had a picture of a proof load ("early loading with no headstamp and solid bullet")
alongside the "standard 250-grain type shown ... with copper point."

Page 123. Ring-a-ding-ding.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bob,

Also interesting is the penetration-ability, i.e., EXPANSION-INABILITY of the Hornady .458/480-gr DGX,
in your test medium.

Maybe that little bit of decreased sectional density in the 480-grainer versus the 500-grain DGX is enough to make the difference?
"Sectional density drives expansion when comparing any two bullets (of same construction otherwise) at a given velocity."
Either that, or they are both poor expanders?

Anyway, sectional density drives about everything in ballistics.
Use enough but not too much.
You can get too much of a good thing.

Rip ...

Quite sure that I could get 2300 fps from that 480 with 1 grain more powder. Will give it a try. It appears very accurate - at least it was from the Ruger LT.

Being made by Hornady for the N.E. Express 3.25", it has the cannelure in the wrong place for the .458 Win, but in the single shot Rugers that doesn't matter. It is a very tough bullet, being one of their DGX series for big, tough DG. However, it does have a very good SD at .327.

Hornady shows a max MV of 2100 fps from a 24" test rifle. Of course, that was to keep pressures acceptable for doubles.

The nose of the 480gr has a meplat of .25", the same as a 465gr hardcast I once used on a 6' bear. It was a frontal chest hit from 70 yards using a single-shot NEF in .45-70 at 1900 fps. The bear was flattened on the spot and the bullet made exit at the bottom of the sternum with an exit wound no larger than bullet caliber. I was in a tree stand so the angle of the shot was downward. Very little evidence of a hit externally, but the heart was a mass of jello. Impact velocity was about 1700 fps. The bullet buried itself somewhere under the bear -- it was never found. I think the 480 DGX might work in a similar fashion --n'est -pas?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

why do you folks try to justify the .458 Win with 400 and 450 gr. bullets? Seems to be admitting its a flawed caliber?? IMO the only bullet for the 458 Win is indeed the 500 gr. bullet is was designed for, but it must be handloaded IMO, then its a hum dinger of a DG caliber, I like it and its very shootable and kills very well indeed..Just stay away from factory ammo...Albiet the 458 Lott holds more powder and gets higher velocity therefore it of course, is a better option, were that not so then this 123 thread would never have come about...Is that so difficult to understand..but hay just doing my part to keep the circle unbroken..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
why do you folks try to justify the .458 Win with 400 and 450 gr. bullets? Seems to be admitting its a flawed caliber?? IMO the only bullet for the 458 Win is indeed the 500 gr. bullet is was designed for, but it must be handloaded IMO, then its a hum dinger of a DG caliber, I like it and its very shootable and kills very well indeed..Just stay away from factory ammo...Albiet the 458 Lott holds more powder and gets higher velocity therefore it of course, is a better option, were that not so then this 123 thread would never have come about...Is that so difficult to understand..but hay just doing my part to keep the circle unbroken..

If my choice was a 400 gr bullet, I would go with a .416 Rem every time.

Another thing I don't get is infatuation with small groups with these big calibers. It might help when trying to brain a hippo or croc, and don't get me wrong - I will take as much accuracy as I can get, but if a big bore puts them into 2 inches (not hard at all) or even better 1.5 inches, who cares?

Ray, part of the conversation here is the mission: 458 pages or 458,000 views, whichever comes first.

now we are getting somewhere

folks are talking facts-- both pro and con

just what we need to put a hard bottom in this thread


thanks for the content Alf

and Ray

and others

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

but it must be handloaded IMO, then its a hum dinger of a DG caliber, I like it and its very shootable and kills very well indeed..Just stay away from factory ammo...Albiet the 458 Lott holds more powder

Ray you have missed the basis point of RIPs' pro 458 stance. The freebore on the 458 allows the bullet to be seated right out so the capacity is then the same as the 458 Lott.

RIP has made other points but that is the key point.

Mike,

Atkinson does not want to get it, but thanks for THE MISSION support, both you and Ray.

24" barrels, 500-grain bullets:
.458 Lott .... 2250 fps MV, 3.600" COL, MAP = 62,500 PSI

.458 WIN ..... 2200 fps MV, 3.340" COL, MAP = 60,000 PSI

.458 WIN ..... 3.600" COL, MV is higher, or pressure is lower, or both, compared to the .458 Lott.
Yep, it's the throat.
Unchain that .458 WIN!
Use it in a 3.4" box and it will do full .450 Nitro Express ballistics, and then some, at 60,000 psi .
Or, use it in a 3.6" box and let it go to same higher pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott:
Y'all know the rest.

Alf's reminiscences about limp magazine springs, ladies fashions, and the tea boys and bar stools at his local emporium in SA reminded me of a "sporting-related"
photograph that came in the electronic mail recently:



Why mess with the .458 Lott when the .458 WIN is so much better? So much more versatile!

Bob,

Looking forward to anymore findings with the 480-grain DGX in your .458 WIN.
I never acquired any of that weight.
Culturally deprived I guess, thinking 450- and 500-grainers had it covered.
I need to rectify that deficiency.

The comparison of the DGX to hard-cast performance at higher than .45-70 velocities is interesting.
Seems "evidence based."
I do have some 400-grain Barnes Busters that can easily do 1700 to 2400 fps, as needed.
I expect they will penetrate quite well too.

Rip ...

quote:

why do you folks try to justify the .458 Win with 400 and 450 gr. bullets? Seems to be admitting its a flawed caliber?? IMO the only bullet for the 458 Win is indeed the 500 gr. bullet is was designed for, but it must be handloaded IMO, then its a hum dinger of a DG caliber, I like it and its very shootable and kills very well indeed..Just stay away from factory ammo...Albiet the 458 Lott holds more powder and gets higher velocity therefore it of course, is a better option, were that not so then this 123 thread would never have come about...Is that so difficult to understand..but hay just doing my part to keep the circle unbroken..

Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures

Ray the thread came about

because guys like you have been saying the 500 can not go 2100 in a 458 win-- the compressed loads get hot and stick or blow the gun and so on

-- non of which is based current on facts --

main point of the logic line here in..

I took a box of Hornady's to africa STORE BOUGHT IN THE MID 2000'S

that did all that

and yes if you hand load, about any one can get more than that, at little or no powder compression and guys Like Bob get a lot more

--- thats all just the facts mam -- putting a little bit of ''spur shank steel'' to the urban legend spread by the-- think they know but don't quite get it bunch

have you seen the videos of guys overloading there lott to so hot the bolt sticks and the gun will not run -- its not that you cant overload a bullet

point is no need to do that with a 458 win
it runs just fine w a 550 hornady at lethal velocities in a standard 458 win loaded proper

if you can handle the heavy recoil and want 505 gibbs sd power

you really don't need to get a lott to go do that

you can if you want to but a 458 will work just as well

--TIMES ARE A CHANGIN - AND THEY ALWAYS DO

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
why do you folks try to justify the .458 Win with 400 and 450 gr. bullets? Seems to be admitting its a flawed caliber?? IMO the only bullet for the 458 Win is indeed the 500 gr. bullet is was designed for, but it must be handloaded IMO, then its a hum dinger of a DG caliber, I like it and its very shootable and kills very well indeed..Just stay away from factory ammo...Albiet the 458 Lott holds more powder and gets higher velocity therefore it of course, is a better option, were that not so then this 123 thread would never have come about...Is that so difficult to understand..but hay just doing my part to keep the circle unbroken..

+1

copied from page 7 refer back and read all about it

FRAMING THE ISSUES-- AROUND BULLETS, VELOCITY AND---- STOPPING RIFLE ENERGY---

SPOT DATA

505 GIBBS 525 gn bullet velocity 2250

ENERGY 5,943

LOWEST SD ''ISSUE FOR PENETRATION''

458 WIN MAG 550 GN BULLET VELOCITY 2100

ENERGY 5427

SD BEST OF THE 3 LISTED HERE

458 WIN MAG 500 GN BULLET VELOCITY 2344

ENERGY 6150

SD HIGHER THAN THE 505 GIBBS



JUST THE FACTS MA'AM, JUST THE FACTS

THIS IS A USEFUL COMPARISON TO GRASP

AS WE THINK ABOUT THINGS 458 WIN MAG

IS IT ENOUGH GUN, CAN I SHOOT IT, DO I NEED IT ALL HOPPED UP, WHAT IS ITS OUTSIDE/ UPSIDE POTENTIAL

IF I EVER EVEN NEEDED IT

SO ONE ARGUMENT MIGHT BE == COULD BE

IF I CAN'T-- WILL NOT-- DON'T REALLY NEED TO-- USE EVERYTHING HERE

WELL THEN WHAT'S THE TRUE ADVANTAGE OF THE LOTT OVER THE 458 WIN MAG

FOR ME IT NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAT

BRAGGING RIGHTS --I'VE GOT A BIGGER GUN-- OR YA REALLY CAN'T GET ER DONE WITH A WATTS 450 SHORT