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Well understood capewood, jus' yakking some was all.

Seeing as how there's not much activity at the moment, would it be out of line or too rude to ask in this thread where might find some field results or loads for the .CEBs in .308 WCF - yes, have a mouse problem here in Montana that needs settlin'... if not, that's fine also. thanks all

PS: Yes, I too am itchin' to hear 'bout the .458 SOCOM results. (that's thumbs twiddlin' in the background ya hear)
 
Posts: 8 | Location: Pacific Northwest - Altitude; Speed; Maneuver; Fire - Bubi | Registered: 25 November 2007Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by outsidebear:
Seeing as how there's not much activity at the moment, would it be out of line or too rude to ask in this thread where might find some field results or loads for the .CEBs in .308 WCF - yes, have a mouse problem here in Montana that needs settlin'...
I'm on my iPad right now and don't have ready access to my laptop so am unable to point you to Michael's testing of the CEB Raptor in the 30-30. I think Sam (srose) has used this combo on deer in his area but my brain may be malfunctioning from the heat. If no one pops up with some load data before late this evening I'll try to find it for you. Not sure if Michael's website has anything. But, it certainly wouldn't hurt to contact CEB and ask for loading info, I'm sure they'd be willing to share what they have.


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
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Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Good Morning from Pretoria South Africa........

Returned last night from Zimbabwe. Excellent trip, 2 buffalo, 2 hippo, big croc, and a great elephant.........

As I have time over the next few days we will have much to discuss, I have photos to process and post, and many things
left to do.

Today, I will not have much time to work on things.

I can tell you this, bullet performance was incredible on all counts.... As suspected, there were no bullet failures, and performance exceeded what was expected.

I will be adding some to the B&M thread too, and in particular things with the lever gun. Which was used on hippo and a great warrior of a bull buffalo, with great success.

In the meantime I will be trying to figure out how best to post things in the appropriate thread and so forth. Lots of work to be done on photos too before I can get started.....

So stay tuned, we are back in the loop now.....

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael,
It will be great to have you back! Can't wait for the stories. May have to fly to South Carolina just to hear them first hand...just as long as I don't have to eat chitlins and boiled okra. rotflmo


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Posts: 3490 | Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Registered: 04 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Outstanding DocM

Great to see you returned from the bush in one piece and with many tales.
 
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dancing popcorn


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

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“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

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Posts: 26434 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Yea Michael - man I am looking forward to hear your reports... dancing
Now I have just build my own "stop box" - very, very similar to yours.. So now I can do some testing on my own, - not that you have left much to test though.. Wink ... But I need to explore more with some 750 and 800 grs FN solids in my 577 TRex at 2500-2600 fps and also in my 500 Acc Rel with 570 and 600 grs CEB/North Fork FN solids at 2300-2400 fps in the 1-10" twist barrel...
And now when I have moved out on a farm after my divorce, I can test just outside the entrance door.... - dont have to drive to the bloody range all the time... THAT is nice... Big Grin
 
Posts: 873 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Good Morning from Sunny Pretoria South Africa.........

Yesterday I had time to post a hunting report upstairs, then this morning a report on the M71 50 B&M Alaskan on the B&M thread, now I suppose we best talk about bullets a bit here, eh?

Well, lets start with the "Star of the Show" on this trip, and that is the 250 gr .458 caliber CEB bullets, both the Socom and the #13 Raptor. Lets see, I shot 2 zebra, 3 wildebeast, warthog, hartebeast, cow buffalo, crocodile, and even a hippo with these bullets.

Socom vs #13 Raptor?????

Honest... Either one, both are incredible. I got deeper penetration with the Socom than the #13 Raptor. Internal damage as far as I could tell about equal. The Socom shed blades faster it seems, and did more damage up front going in.. Which would be logical. Both bullets transmitted tremendous amounts of trauma to target, some very serious reactions taking the bullet. Both bullets did drop the larger plains game on the spot, and some of these were spectacular. Many are on film that we will eventually be able to present so you can see for yourselves. But this will be sometime in the near future.

While I consider the 250s absolutely INCREDIBLE plains game bullets, in my opinion when we get to buffalo, we are stretching the outer limits. I decided to take advantage of a buffalo cow, instead of a big bull for this ultimate test of the bullet. Knowing the Socom had a bit more penetration, it was the bullet I chose.

We ran across this cow in a herd, perfect broadside shot at 40-50 yards. I deliberately placed the bullet behind the shoulders, going through both lungs. The bullet hit very hard, noticeable reaction, and the cow took off with the herd, no time or opportunity for a second shot. After going about 10 yds blood flow was one side, and a lot. I knew it would not be far and it was not, about a total of 25-30 yds the cow had slowed to a walk, and turned to meet us, I placed a 450 #13 SOlid through both shoulders, and the story came to an end.

Indeed the 250 Socom had penetrated all the way to the far side of the cow, and was found just under the skin, giving ample penetration..... FOR THE PERFECT SHOT! I emphasize the PERFECT SHOT strongly, as in the end we don't always have the perfect shot on buffalo, and buffalo are not to be trifled with, nor underestimated. Personally I do not recommend either of the 250s as buffalo bullets, and I would prefer more for buffalo. Maybe one day I will try one of the heavier lever bullets in the 458 B&M, such as the 295, but even more intriguing would be that 370 Lever Raptor at velocity, with a Talon Tip added. I am quite sure that one would go beyond adequate. We already know that the 420 Safari Raptor is a hammer in any 458.





This zebra was hit with the 250 #13 HP, 100 or so yards out. Frontal chest was the only shot, and I had to duck below brush to get that. Fact is, chest was the only part of this zebra I could see at all. It hit hard to say the least, zebra danced around a bit going no more than 10 or 15 yds and was down for good, internals destroyed.



This wildebeast and oryx both dropped to the shot, 250 #13 HP... Never took a step.......





This wildebeast was with the 250 Socom, at 125-150 yds.... Story here is that I was aiming at a frontal on another wildebeast, just before the shot broke, the one I was aiming at ducked, and this one ran into the bullet taking it dead in the guts! We would not have known any of this had we not seen it on video! Now we have a gut shot wildebeast to track! Not good! This bullet did so much damage, that within 10-15 minutes we caught up with the wildebeast, TOO SICK to go further, and I hit him in the shoulder with a 325 #13 Solid at 2500 fps... That put things to an end immediately.





This wildebeast cow was shot at around 80 yards or so, frontal, turned a flip upside down, never took a step. DRT.
Very dramatic reaction.




This zebra took a 250 Socom to the rear in the spine as a first shot, second shot from down in the chest put an end to the affair. What happened was that the left leg (of 3) of the sticks collapsed as I hit the trigger, zebra was moving from my left to right, shot went high, and rearward catching it mid section spine putting it down, but not out. Second shot through the chest, end of story.



Now this hippo. We were going along several shore areas along Lake Kariba looking for a croc, which we found several that day already, but none fitting the criteria we had. I was loaded with the 250 Socom, backed by a couple of 450 #13 Solids. When all the sudden we disturbed a large bull hippo during his nap outside the water. We were well away from the water at this point, in some fairly thick brush. Hippo stood up facing us, but settled down quickly and just stood. We managed to get a little closer. Now, there was no chance to change out bullets, and I promise I did not trust that 250 for a body shot on hippo... But this one presented the perfect brain shot at 17 yards, so I took it. Reaction was perfect, and immediate. The bull dropped at the shot, rear first followed by the massive head. I like to shoot, so I put a 450 Solid through the point of the shoulder, it was not needed, but always better safe than sorry.

Upon inspection the 250 Socom at 2900 fps and 17 yds literally blew his brains OUT. I am talking about brains blowing 6 feet in both directions out of his EARS........ Brains flowing out both nostrils as well! No one had ever seen anything like this. Hell, no one had ever even heard of anything like this. After the skull was removed and cleaned, we found the little Socom bottom of the brain cavity. The entire left side of the brain cavity was blown to bits and just did not exist. A huge 2x3 inch chunk of brain cavity on the other side was blown out. Back of the skull was severely broken, damaged, and in some pieces completely blown out. Damage was SEVERE to say the least...............




The last animal taken with the 250 Socom was the Croc. We had baited not all that far from camp. The evening before there were two very large crocs around the bait, and they even had a little issue with each other the night before. Next day, mid morning, the winner of that battle decided to crawl up on a sand bar, 27 yds from the blind.

When we arrived he had his back to us.



We waited perhaps 45 minutes or so, always on ready go.. and he crawled on up, and turned sideways for the near perfect neck shot. I lined up dead center just behind the smile, and squeezed the trigger. Results were immediate and tail swishing back and to a few times, and in between I hit him again with a 450 #13 Solid. It was over however on the first shot with the 250 Socom. In video, the head is lifted completely off the ground at the first shot, massive trauma being transmitted to target. 250 Socom passed completely through, breaking the neck cleanly, anchoring the croc on the spot immediately. Of course being a reptile, they take a long time to die. So to speed recovery I took the camp 22 lr over and placed the muzzle at an angle just behind the brain cavity. Croc wide awake and could open jaws, but the 22 lr put his lights out immediately, and without doing any more damage than needed.........




The light weight 250s in .458 caliber were a huge success in my opinion. These bullets, either one, will enhance .458 caliber far beyond what was before possible, and doing work that in the past required much more weight to accomplish. These bullets enhance otherwise lacking cartridges, think 45/70....... On other larger cases in .458, 458 Win, 458 B&M, 458 Lott and so forth, these bullets add incredible versatility to your rifle.... Absolutely
superb on anything plains game, elk, moose, bear, lion and certainly leopard. I would not hesitate to use these on the big bears, or lion and know that it would hit them hard and final. I think these are an incredible leap forward.............

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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My favorite part...
Awesome report! beer

quote:
On inspection the 250 Socom had hit the brain so hard that it squirted brains out both ears for 6 feet each side, and brain matter was coming out the nose as well. It blew a hole in the skull big as your fist, and nearly broke the entire back of the skull out. Found the bullet in the skull other side of the brain cavity. A tremendous amount of pressure, much like a small grenade, exploded inside the brain cavity.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26434 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Comgratulations on your hunt. Great report...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Great report Michael! Glad you are testing on something besides paper, you know that doesn't work! HEE HEE
Shoot hippo with a 45 caliber pistol bullet is extreme for sure. IT ALL IN THE BULLET!
 
Posts: 2799 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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All very nice Michael but you know those Woodleighs would have done much better!

sofa
 
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Originally posted by Todd Williams:
All very nice Michael but you know those Woodleighs would have done much better!

sofa



Thanks Todd.... Good to hear of you buddy! However, the "W" comment..... moon

HEH........


Yeah Sam, you know that stupid ass test work gets you no where... LOL..................
Where have we heard that before????? HEH.........

I will be working to post more tomorrow about some of the other bullets......

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Just as we had expected. You have verified the results of our June Caprivi safari experience with the 250gr CEBs from the 458B&M, which with these bullets is a true one gun mixed bag safari rifle capable of the largest DG to all PG.

Well done.


Mike
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Posts: 3575 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Thanks for the report. Glad to read something worth while here on AR.

tu2Glad to here the bullets w/slits work so well. I wonder how the heavy weight bullets(w/slits) would perform over the std. type.


Keith


Something to keep you busy, when you get home. clap

Keith


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Posts: 4553 | Location: Walker Co.,Texas | Registered: 05 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Hi Michael,
Great report and good to hear from you buddy.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
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Posts: 26993 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Lionhunter

Correct on all counts.... This 18 inch 458 B&M was shooting all the loads I had no further than 1 inch apart POI for the 250 Socom/#13, 450 #13 Solid, 325 #13 Solid and 420 #13 Safari Raptor, all within an inch at 50 yards. In my mixed bag, it was just choose which bullet for the job at hand, go to work. Of course the one time, hunting the croc, and busting that big hippo, I would have normally chosen the 450 #13 Solid for that hippo work, but at 17 yds I could not take the chance of getting caught changing loads out!!!!!!! Just very fortunate that he offered the perfect brain shot for that 250!

For sure, these 250s, either of them, change the game totally for 458 caliber. What an incredible enhancement for 45/70?
What about 458 Win and 458 Lott? For anyone with any .458 caliber rifle they owe it to themselves to look at these bullets to increase the versatility of their rifles. There are always some limitations and sacrifices, very long range being one of them, but as discussed many times, most shots are well under 200 yards to begin with, and most of what I have done with plains game, and other such critters, has averaged down to 80 or so yards over many years.

Also lets not forget that we have other calibers with the same advantage, .416 comes to mind right now for me, the 225 #13 HP in particular. I will be using this bullet extensively in just a few weeks from now in Australia. I am headed back to do some shooting with Paul Truccolo mid September, we have some buffalo to sort out, and I am taking that little 6.5 lb, 18 inch 416 B&M loaded to the hilt with those 225s at 2900 fps. I intend to give 416 a workout in a serious way there. There is the 300-335-365 in .500 caliber, and the 350 in .510 caliber that can serve the same purpose. I am also taking a 500 MDM and right now I think I am working with the 335 gr bullet. Personally, I stay pissed off with .474 caliber, so I have made no efforts there, not sure if Dan has or not.

Yes Keith, I know, you guys intend to keep me busy this coming winter I think! HEH.........

Thanks Lane, and its good to be heard of......

I think now we must talk about some of the other bullets used on the hunt...... Which ones? Hmmmmmm????

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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OK.... I think I have decided to talk .500 caliber, and lever guns for this post.

As most of you know, I took a M71 50 B&M Alaskan out for my first time with it. It is an extremely popular cartridge, perhaps the most popular of the B&M Series. Very simply a .510 Alaskan squeezed down to .500 caliber. I get a daily update of what has been looked at on the B&M website, and 50 B&M AK is ALWAYS in the top 10 pages viewed, and 80% of the time it is in the top 3 pages viewed.

But for me, I put it on the back burner well behind the more powerful bolt gun cartridges until this year. Being a traditional lever cartridge it just simply has limitations of pressures one can work with in the lever guns, 45000 to 50000 PSI maximum. So how do we enhance any cartridge or rifle? By bullet design of course! And by damn we have done a lot of bullet work to enhance the 50 B&M Alaskan as much as possible.

Honestly, and I think Org here in South Africa will confirm this, but I have never touted the 50 B&M AK as being a rifle for any of the heavies, buffalo, hippo, elephant. While I believed it to be "adequate" with the right bullets, I never considered it the power levels of any of the bolt guns, and this still holds true today in my opinion. While adequate, maybe a tad better than adequate, no traditional lever cartridge can match what can be done in the bolt guns. But, choosing the right bullet for the mission is as always paramount to success.

For this hunt, my main goal was buffalo with the 50 B&M AK... I chose the 365 gr Lever Raptor and its matching 405 Lever Solid, both #13 profiles, and tested extensively. The penetration was there in all the test work, now it was time to put bullet to flesh and see with my eyes what the story is. Intentions were to hit the buffalo hard with the 365 and then followup with 405 Solids.....

One thing got in the way of this plan............. A hippo!

I could not resist the first day in Gache Gache a big body hippo taking a nap just a few feet out of the water, so we loaded up heavy, 5 rounds of 405 #13 CEB Lever Solids at 2120 fps...... I am able to run about an extra 50-75 fps faster with this particular M71 than any of the Marlins I have worked with, not much, but a little extra. Andrew and I were able to sneak up to the sleeping pod of hippos to 15 yards....... Here is the series of events captured by my lovely bride which was about 10 yds behind Andrew and I......









Something disturbed and woke the pod, one of the other hippos made a run for the water, and the bigger hippo came to life as well. First chance I hit him through the shoulders with the first 405, and the dance was on, I hit him 3 more times quick as possible, but he still made it 15 yards into the water, and down. He was finished long before the 4th round hit him, but what the hell, I brought plenty of ammo along, why not use it! An hour later we recovered him, and we also recovered 3 of the 4 bullets. None exited, and some hit some heavy bone structure along the way. Estimated penetration was running from 4 ft to 5 ft depending on bone.........




Oh, I almost forgot, I did get a good opportunity on a big warthog in South Africa, before going to Zimbabwe. We were not particularly hunting anything, just taking a stroll with the 50 B&M AK, and this warthog decided to get in the way of things. The 365 #13 Raptor did a number on him, and I finished with a solid anyway... No bullet recovery here....





Next..... Buffalo with the Lever gun.....

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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The next day after the hippo, I got my chance at a fine tough and mean ass buffalo. I won't go into as much detail on this buffalo as I did on the B&M thread, if you want more, see that thread below. Suffice to say, this buffalo took a pounding and kept on going, and would have with anything I could have hit him with.

First opening shot was with the 365 #13 Raptor, roughly 30 yards, in the open and running. I am not a good running shot, but felt good, took the shot, and hit him just behind the shoulder, through both lungs. Second followup, 405 #13 Lever Solid, thing is, I did not see a 5-6 inch diameter tree in front of me, and between me and the buffalo, I hit this tree dead center, the bullet traveled through the tree, hit the buffalo mid section (yes guts), and continued on its way to another land somewhere, as it passed completely through the buffalo as well............. The buffalo was running exactly 30 yards behind the tree that was hit...... I would say that is some damned straight line penetration!!!!!!!!!!!!






Right after the second shot the bull started walking got behind some brush, and for seems like a very long time caused us some discomfort and troublesome approach. He was dead on his feet, but would not give it up, he had a great desire to bite back and made every effort.

Finally after some time, we made an approach, he got on his feet, and I gave him a dose of 405 #13 Solids, 4 of them quickly to be exact. All passed completely through except for one that entered the front left shoulder, and was found on the rear right tail end right under the skin.... 5 feet of penetration in buffalo. Not bad for a lever gun!




Now, interesting story about the 365 gr #13 Lever Raptor... NonCon.... Once everything settled down, taking photos and such as that, I found what looked like an exit hole, .500 caliber, cut clean as can be, typical NonCon exit... I am bad about poking fingers in these holes, and I felt the bullet? Took my knife, did a bit of digging, and sure enough, there was the remaining bullet right there in the hole. It had traversed completely through to the far side, cut a perfect caliber hole, but just did not have enough to fall out on the ground! I was not really disappointed, but amazed at some of the things you run across with this stuff in the field. I felt penetration was more than adequate and did a pretty good job.

This is me giving a Bullet Lecture, I got on a roll here talking about bullets.......................






All in all, I was pleased with the bullet performance of the 50 B&M Alaskan.... Opinion still the same as when I started, it is adequate, or even better with the right bullets, but it still cannot match the power levels of a cartridge same caliber in the bolt guns for the heavies.................. These are the limitations of the action, not the cartridge/bullet.....

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Now that's a WARTHOG!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Posts: 2799 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Yep, warthog has character ... and spread!
Well done! clap
I gotta finish digesting the above bolus. tu2
 
Posts: 27607 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Hit a tree, went all the way through, then hit the buff, went all the way through, and is still flying around out there somewhere! Damn, that over-penetration thing is a real problem!!

jumping
 
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quote:
This is me giving a Bullet Lecture, I got on a roll here talking about bullets.......................



You, on a roll about bullets! Nah....!!! :-)

Glad to see the lever gun in action, was neat to see it in person last month. Looks like the pudding has been proofed!
 
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So the buff was on the run and able to get some adrenaline pumped through his system? Seems the buff was dead on the first shot but took a while for him to know it. These bullets do make a lever gun safari within reach for a lot of people.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26434 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Makes me think my .450 Marlin cartridge in the Browning BLR (3/8" increased case capacity and 17k increased psi) should do very well.
Congrats, Mike, and any good comments from the Princess?


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Posts: 3490 | Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Registered: 04 April 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Hit a tree, went all the way through, then hit the buff, went all the way through, and is still flying around out there somewhere! Damn, that over-penetration thing is a real problem!!

jumping


Man if I could just get a even 1/2 dozen buffalo to line up broadside for me....... shocker


quote:
You, on a roll about bullets! Nah....!!! :-)


Yeah, I think had I carried on too much more that they would have had to lay down and take a nap!
rotflmo


Max

Oh yes, for sure your 450 would do fine... Perhaps that 400/370 combo for heavies, and the 250 for everything else.

Boss Princess is doing fine, but says she is ready to come home, as am I...........

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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We have covered all the bullets used on the trip except for one.........

.458 450 gr BBW#13 Safari Raptor.......

From the time I started using a 458 Winchester many years ago, I always figured that the 450 size pills were the ticket for that case capacity cartridge. Now with my own 458 B&M, which has the same case capacity, and equal performance, only a much smaller package or platform, this remains the same. Today, with the superior performance of both the BBW#13 and the New North Fork profile, even in larger capacity cartridges, 458 Lott +, one no longer needs that extra weight in my opinion either. If I were running 458 Lott plus today, there is no reason at all to run anything beyond the #13 450, North Fork 450, or the #13 480.... Just no reason at all, as any of these will give you more than enough penetration, and some will say "Over Penetration", which to me just means "Superior Performance", and that they do.

Something that is not talked about much with these bullets is the hitting ability of the flat meplats, and the extra destruction they transfer to target. This is real, cannot be denied, I have seen it many times, not just in actual destruction on the front end of tissue damage, but in animal reactions as well. These flat meplat solids hit hard.

While one of my main goals with the 458 B&M was to test out these 250 gr Raptors.... There was hippo and possible elephant that were on the menu. I wanted a solid for elephant that I knew I could depend on. In this rifle, I had perfect POI, with the main goal of working with the 250s at 2900 fps, the 450 #13 Solid at 2200 fps fell one inch dead below the 250s. Having the 250s sighted 1 inch hi at 50 yards, the 450 Solid was dead on the money at 50, and that is perfect for close range elephant or anything else. I used the 450 Solid a few other times during the trip, but this was its main purpose, possible elephant, and intended to use on hippo as well.

I think maybe it was the third evening out we came across 4 bulls, with one of them being a very good bull. It was getting late, but we managed to get close to them and identify the biggest bull, but in some thick brush, wind whirling around they busted us and took off. It was way too late, about 30 minutes before pitch dark, to make another approach, so we decided to leave them, not spook them again, and hopefully pick up the tracks the next morning..........

Sure enough, next morning we picked up the tracks and followed. I am not sure how long we tracked, but did not seem too long, maybe an hour or so, and caught up with them. Again, some fairly thick brush, on our knees I could just see the tusks and the chest, the biggest bull was facing us, slight angle to my right, his left..... There was no shot. He was swaying back and forth, as he would sway his head to his left it opened up an angled shot into the chest, but since he was not quite on to us I did not take that shot. After a long time watching him sway back and forth, and the other bulls just out of sight to our left behind him, we made a move further to our left to get a clear shot. He caught on to something moving, but did not know exactly what, as I raised the rifle I could clearly see his head and started to line up for a frontal brain, almost there, but he got wise to it, and took off to his left, I dropped the rifle to the shoulder for a heart shot and quickly took it as he ran. There was but a fraction of a second to do this in an open spot before he was totally behind cover. And for the first time ever, my PH Andrew took a backup shot as he hit the brush, I did not have any issue at all with this, Andrew uses a 500 MDM as a backup, and that is as good as being my rifle too, and in this brush, neither of us wanted a repeat of a couple of years ago where another elephant wanted to eat me! LOL.......... Andrews shot took him mid section, the other bulls broke the other direction, and Andrew and I took off fast as possible after the bull. We maybe went 50 yards, and caught him as he was going down for the count. He was finished.

The 450 gr BBW#13 Safari Solid had in fact taken him straight through the heart, entrance his right side, and exited his left side shoulder dead straight through. It just don't get any better than that.............

This was my first elephant with the 458 B&M, and this particular little rifle just handled extremely well on everything I used it for, and performed perfectly on everything. Its first trip out was 2011, where it took a few buffalo cows, hippo, and the first crocodile. At that point it sported a nice english stock from Accurate Innovations. Now it has a new bastogne from Accurate Innovations, and comes in at 7.5 lbs minus scope, and handles like a dream. For sure it has earned a special place for me, and is a very favored rifle, quite sure I will use it a lot in the future, now having buffalo, hippo, elephant, crocodile, and many other animals under its belt........





All my camera people had dispersed by the time we got the heart out, and I did not get the best photos of it here, but the heart was hit hard by the 450 #13, more than it shows in this photo, I was extremely pleased with the performance.




Right this moment, I believe this report covers the last of the bullets used on this trip. There were no failures with any of the bullets I used and in all cases some extreme performance. Rifles, cartridges, and bullets all performed extremely well and nothing I have seen here with any of them would give me reason to change or do anything different with any of the designs, rifle, cartridge and most certainly bullets...............

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Really fantastic Michael. Congrats on a great hunt and animals.
 
Posts: 6594 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by BaxterB:
Really fantastic Michael. Congrats on a great hunt and animals.


tu2
tu2


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"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4183 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Great elephant Michael!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Posts: 2799 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Wonderful story and outstanding performance. Good on ya, Michael
Max


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Posts: 3490 | Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Registered: 04 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Thanks Baxter, Sam, Tanz, and Max......

We did have a great time for sure..... Will headed right back next year with Mark David to hunt with Andrew and Corris on his first buffalo. Then again the next year with Matthew for the same...... I might find something to
shoot as well........ Whistling



Since this thread started, way back when, I have been constantly amazed at the number of folks who view, observe, and lurk the thread that never post. I don't have any issues at all with this, and I am always very pleasantly surprised when contacted direct by many of these guys. Let me introduce you guys to Jim. Jim has read the entire thread, page by page, and followed much of the bullet work done here and much of the work Sam and I have done on the double threads.... Bullets are bullets, they have no idea whether they are launched by double, bolt or lever, and while we all have our preferences, its a moot point when we talk about bullets...........

Jim hopefully will be joining us sometime today, I have told him what a great group of guys we have here. Jim, and many many others, is the reason we do what we do, to see you, Jim, and others be more successful in the field.

While waiting on Jim to join up and add his own comments, he has given me permission to post the photo he sent me a few days ago, and some of the comments he made.......



quote:
Thought you might like to see the result of your hard work. Took this guy in Chobie 1-2 in June with a 570 bbw#13 from a Merkel 500 at about 20 yds. My side brain attempt was a little low and a little far back. He looked like he had a seizure, stiffened and fell on his side jerking. I might have nicked brain stem or spinal cord, or maybe just spinal shock but he went no where. I chose my load and bullet based upon all I read of your (and Sam's) work and just wanted to say thanks.






Jim, I can't tell you how much this means to me personally, thank you very much...........

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Thanks Michael! As I mentioned to you I have often felt like I was eavesdropping on the private conversations of a group of close friends as I have read the posts and learned. I've been hunting since age 6 but am somewhat new to big bores and doubles. Recently I have come to think of my .416 as my light rifle Big Grin. The description in The previous post pretty much tells the story. Eight days and up close to over 30 bulls to find this guy. Chobe has too many elephants. The environment is suffering from intense over browsing everywhere you look. We certainly saw thousands with herds of cows and calves that were too numerous to count, but big old and toothy bulls were harder. Murray Hibbs was our PH with Butler and Holbrow and he did a marvelous job and was tireless. Great sense of humor as well. He was impressed with the bullet design and performance so I left him a few for his 500 Westley.
At any rate thanks for the warm welcome to AR. I hope to get to meet and know some of the personalities I have begun to recognize in the posts. You guys seem to be a good bunch to whom even an introvert like me could relate. Thanks and good hunting. Jim
 
Posts: 29 | Location: Missouri, usa | Registered: 26 February 2013Reply With Quote
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Michael,
That is a nice elephant. And if I haven't said it previously - that Bastogne stock really looks good on the .458!

Jim,
Welcome to the thread!


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Welcome Jim!
Now your great luck couldn't have been because of that sling on your double could it? I'm thinking that its one of Michaels...and I have one just like it.
Max


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Posts: 3490 | Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Registered: 04 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Michael

Jims comments are well deserved.

From the very start of this thread yourself and Sam have shown that one can not only wildcat cartridges to make them better suited to the job at hand but one can wildcat bullets to make them better as well. tu2

I've certainly learned plenty from your efforts.
Cheers
Rhodes
 
Posts: 193 | Location: Oz | Registered: 22 July 2011Reply With Quote
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Jim

Congrats on your hunt and please keep posting.

We need more double rifles in this thread Wink

Rhodes
 
Posts: 193 | Location: Oz | Registered: 22 July 2011Reply With Quote
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capoward, Thanks for the encouragement!
Prof242, yes that is one of Michaels slings. Good eye. You obviously have no trouble finding game in the bush. a friend actually gave that to me before the hunt for good luck. Must have worked

Rhodes, I couldn't agree with you more. Haven't owned the merkel that long and I'm already perusing adds for another(much to my wife's dismay.
Cheers
 
Posts: 29 | Location: Missouri, usa | Registered: 26 February 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,
That is a nice elephant. And if I haven't said it previously - that Bastogne stock really looks good on the .458!

Jim,
Welcome to the thread!



Cappy....... None of these photos really show how good this stock is, and I have not photographed the rifle at home with this stock. It really looks great, and when I get home I will take some real proper photos of the rifle as it is now.... I swear this little gun has been a workhorse of a rifle, and has won a very special place with me at this point...... It is the most perfect 458 caliber rifle I have ever owned or had pleasure to work with.


I got a funny from Phil earlier today... He found my "Sling Page" on the B&M site, although he thought I looked funny in all the photos, he liked the way I worked with the sling..... HEH.......

As I keep telling all of you, "Slings Are For Shooting First and Primary" "Carry is only a Secondary Use".............

Note Purpose of Sling........... Momma caught me shooting at something, I think this was when I was shooting at the buffalo cow.... I LOVE THESE SLINGS.... .. The two I used recently on the lever gun and the 458 worked fantastic, and I would absolutely not go to the field without one. This BS about getting caught on brush while hunting DG is pure horse shit from BS that don't know what a sling is for and how to properly carry and use one in the field........



Rhodes, mighty kind words, I do appreciate them greatly..... I know Sam does as well, we have talked much about these sort of things and the reason we do what we do....

JDT500.... Welcome buddy to the thread....... And on this thread, Michael could care less whether its a double, single, lever, or bolt gun, BULLETS don't care and neither do I..... We have a good double crowd of chaps here, Todd comes to mind first, of course Sam, and many more, all are welcomed........ Bore Size does matter... HEH HEH........

Gees, ONE MORE DAY, and we Leave on Thursday........ dancing

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Jim,

Welcome to the bullet zone! Chobe was over-run with Ele back in 1997. They really need to do something to seriously thin those herds! The carrying capacity must be at least 3x what it should be and probably more.

If I could make a suggestion, try the 510gr BBW#13 in your 500 Merkel. Beau and I each used them from our Merkel 500NE rifles in June, and we took the first two Elephant bulls killed using this bullet. Performance was exactly what we and Michael expected - perfect.


Mike
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