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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Originally posted by srose:
Congrates to Mike, Beau and Mark. Glad to see more people using the #13s with same results.
Sam


And Carl and Eric too!


Yes I meant Carl and Eric also but sometimes my brain doesn't function properly. My typing is awful too.

Sam
 
Posts: 2799 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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CCMDoc,

I'm not going to say you can use a non con for frontal brain on elephant but I am saying I would if that was all I had.

Sam
 
Posts: 2799 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Sam,

Thanks, and I appreciate all your work and contributions as well. Looking forward to seeing you and all the B&M afficionados at Michaels' booth at DSC.


Mike
______________
DSC
DRSS (again)
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA

"To be a Marine is enough."
 
Posts: 3575 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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What I use when I have to--isnt necessarily what I use when I have a choice.

coffee
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
What I use when I have to--isnt necessarily what I use when I have a choice.

coffee
tu2


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Sean-

Best of luck on your safari! Shoot straight and watch your six.


Mike
______________
DSC
DRSS (again)
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA

"To be a Marine is enough."
 
Posts: 3575 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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251 pages of the most interesting and educational data and discussion on the entire forum IMO. Congratulations Michael. patriot

I too am in complete agreement concerning the 375. I've shot a couple of buff with the 375 and yeah, it will kill them and shot placement is the name of the game, but there is no arguing the fact that a well placed 500NE is more effective than a well placed 375H&H. BOOM

What is with the other experiment on the forum and the Home Depot buckets full of water? That one I just don't get. Seems to me the water buckets tell you what the bullet will look like in the end and how many buckets it will go though. Not much else. No witness info about what the wound channel looks like, stability of the bullet, did it tumble, did it stay dead straight or veer off at the end, etc. Then to top it off, the guy running the show says he hasn't seen any data on the CEB BBW#13 and would like someone to provide a link to any data on said bullet if available!!??? YGBSM!! 251 pages of data on the same Big Bore Category? bewildered Anyway, thanks to Michael for the time, money, effort, and commitment, not to mention the expertise, necessary to compile such thorough data all while staying true to following the information wherever the truth lead the experiment. If it worked, it was reported. If it failed, it was reported. The objectiveness of the project led to small tweaks here and there that made several of the bullet designs even better. Now all the test work is being verified on actual dangerous game such as Buffalo and Elephant. The other experiment is backing up the water buckets with digging bullets out of the range backstop, not actual animals.

This thread allowed us to separate the manufacturers advertising claims from reality. It also showed which manufacturers are interested in improving their products and which are just interested in selling bullets.
 
Posts: 7735 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:
Sean-

Best of luck on your safari! Shoot straight and watch your six.




Same here Sean, good luck, good shooting, we are here and looking for your safe return!
Enjoy!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Todd

Thank you so much. Right here we have a great many very experienced Dangerous Game hunters/shooters! These things coming from someone as experienced as yourself, Lionhunter, Sam, Doc, and many many others, too many to even mention, means a great deal to what we have accomplished, together. What we have done here, translates to the real world. We see it over and over, what has been successful in the test work, has been successful in the field. We can correlate that data, and have done so, and have proven it, regardless of the nay-sayers current, and past. We see it here in the field reports coming in weekly, we see it ourselves in our own field experiences. Digging bullets out the dirt bank? OK, well not sure what that means, or proves. No trauma observations, no penetration depths, no knowledge of bullet behavior during terminals, straight, tumble, veer, impossible to determine. No valuable data, no tweaking of performance as no real determinations can be made, in dirt or simple water buckets. None is given, as nothing can be determined.

All testing is good, regardless. Some are better than others. We have studied real terminal performance since the early 1990s, in this same sort of test medium. We have tested every bullet known to man, and nearly all big bore calibers. Some obscure or less popular calibers, .423 and some we have not tested, but data from .416 will translate to .423 under most circumstances, so not much has been left out.

I saw mention of softs not being able to penetrate buffalo heads. What rubbish. I have actually shot a good many buffalo straight between the eyes, or in the skulls, and never found any of those bullets stuck in the heads, all passed through, and out the back of the head. Most were finish shots, some .458 Swifts, some barnes and BBW#13 Solids, several NonCons of late. Only one buffalo was shot in the head that was a self defense shot, last year in Zimbabwe a very severely shot buff wanted one last go, from 5 yards or so I gave him a .500 caliber 460 BBW#13 NonCon right under his left eye, slightly to the middle of his nose, this bullet blew a hole out the back of his skull big enough to put your fist through it! No, did not find any bullet. I quickly put a 500 gr BBW#13 Solid just next to it, of course it had a free ride through the skull, proceeded through the neck, and entire body of the bull, found sticking out the hide, nose first, in the ass end, dead straight penetration, 7 feet or more. I am sure you all remember this photo I took.




Buffalo, Ulrik, tried to tell them down there on that thread, but it fell on ears that don't listen. Or able to listen?

Anyway, thanks for the support, I did not do this all by my lonesome, many many of you have contributed, and come up with ideas of how to improve things, and through two companies, that are loyal to "Performance", and willing to go the extra mile for us, REAL, DG Shooters/hunters, we have to give thanks to both Cutting Edge Bullets and to North Fork! Without them we would still be in the "Dark Ages".

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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lol Michael that is exactly the picture I mentally thought of when reading that other thread. I thought about looking it up and posting it in the other thread but figured the knowledge would be lost on the bulk of that thread's audience; those that know already know and those that don't obviously are to lazy to read this thread to have there questions answered before being asked...


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Hey Michael,

How many of us have used 577NE (or any .585) and 600NE (or any .620) CEBs on dangerous game?

Sam
Don
Me

Anyone else? I'd like to get a sense of how many, if any were recovered and the game on which they were used.

The only CEB #13 I've ever recovered had traversed from elephant occiput to opposite temporal bone laying just under the skin.





Just curious as to how many of these "ultra-bore" rounds have been used on "ultra-game" and the results


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:

Dave

First order of business to sort out!

I AIN"T GONNA BE USING NO RAT GUNS FOR THICK SKINNED GAME---PERIOD!!!!! stir

Rat guns are 9.3 and 375--when considering BUFFALO! lol

Oh I had plenty of bullet with the NonCons, and it would have been no different with North Forks, and you know I love North Fork, but what I did not have was "enough Caliber", very plainly pointed out by all. How many times have you heard me say this "It ain't the cartridge, It ain't the rifle, It's the BULLET!" Ok, now, in this ONE instance I am going to say this "It Ain't The Bullet (this time) it's the Caliber" LOL.......................

Now, truth of the matter, I had intended on shooting a bull with the 9.3. But after it being so not impressive on cows, I said to hell with it, get a real caliber rifle, my 475 B&M. And on the two bulls I shot, and those redskins I put the "Indian Stalk" on, I used the 475 B&M to good effect.

Oh, and on my big bad bull I took, I used the .474 caliber 425 gr North Fork Cup Point.



Tanz, fellow ought not to be shooting buffalo over 25 yards! Although I have to admit, I have murdered a few at 50 yards or so, and yes, I am ashamed of that!

Michael


Michael:

I was wondering, when it comes to the "rat calibers" and thick skinned game, do you think that that the results would be better by just using a BBW#13 solids? I ask because I know that Taylor suggested solids when using the 9,3 for buffalo and rhino.


Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).
 
Posts: 3728 | Location: Midwest | Registered: 26 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Doc

Sam
You
Don??? Did Don do something with 577? I did not know that one, I don't think?

Aaron with the 600 Nitro and 577.

Tell me what Don did!

All I know of they were the hammers of Hell!

I can promise this, I know it for a fact--The Ultra Bores are now earning their reputation! They are more effective now, than ever in their entire History. All of you know, I had little respect for Ultra Bores until the BBW#13s came along!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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agree M...

And I still look forward to try a 750 grs BBW#13 .585 solid in my 577 TRex at 2600 fps.... guess if shot frontally in the jaw he will have teeth in his ass.... Big Grin
 
Posts: 873 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:

Dave

First order of business to sort out!

I AIN"T GONNA BE USING NO RAT GUNS FOR THICK SKINNED GAME---PERIOD!!!!! stir

Rat guns are 9.3 and 375--when considering BUFFALO! lol

Oh I had plenty of bullet with the NonCons, and it would have been no different with North Forks, and you know I love North Fork, but what I did not have was "enough Caliber", very plainly pointed out by all. How many times have you heard me say this "It ain't the cartridge, It ain't the rifle, It's the BULLET!" Ok, now, in this ONE instance I am going to say this "It Ain't The Bullet (this time) it's the Caliber" LOL.......................

Now, truth of the matter, I had intended on shooting a bull with the 9.3. But after it being so not impressive on cows, I said to hell with it, get a real caliber rifle, my 475 B&M. And on the two bulls I shot, and those redskins I put the "Indian Stalk" on, I used the 475 B&M to good effect.

Oh, and on my big bad bull I took, I used the .474 caliber 425 gr North Fork Cup Point.



Tanz, fellow ought not to be shooting buffalo over 25 yards! Although I have to admit, I have murdered a few at 50 yards or so, and yes, I am ashamed of that!

Michael


Michael:

I was wondering, when it comes to the "rat calibers" and thick skinned game, do you think that that the results would be better by just using a BBW#13 solids? I ask because I know that Taylor suggested a solid when using the 9,3 for buffalo and rhino.




Dave

No Dave, I don't think solids in 9.3/375 are the answer to be honest. I know how much trauma the NonCons inflict, and it's a lot. My 9.3 B&M was absolute hell on zebra, wildebeast, hartebeast and those thin skinned critters in April, with a 210 Raptor at 2900 fps. It turned those animals inside out, destroyed everything they had inside, on hartebeast, blades were going all the way through to the far chest cavity, hits on these animals were extreme, and they let you know it quickly.

BBW#13 Solids, Hyrdos and North Forks would all do damage, all penetrate, but not as much damage as a NonCon, or an Expanding North Fork CPS on buffalo. Had plenty of penetration, penetration is not the issue. It's just the calibers on buffalo. Buffalo are far different than any thin skinned animal, including lion, leopard or bear. They are big, they absorb bullets like sponges. The bigger the bullet, the less they can absorb. The big bore NonCons I have used, 458-.500, knocks the hell out of buffalo, and they show it. They show it more with NonCons than anything I have ever shot buffalo with in my life, which is quite a few with 458s and 458 Lotts. But dropping that caliber down so does effect on them.

Even my little tiny Super Shorts, 50 and 475, with 320-335 NonCons, 375 North Fork Expanding CPS, at moderate velocity from 2200-2300 fps were FAR FAR more effective than my 9.3 with a 255 at 2600-2650 fps. It was noted not just by myself, but Paul and Sam as well. In fact, both Paul and Sam mentioned it to me first.

To impress buffalo, you need caliber to begin with, and then the meanest, kick ass bullet you can get, and it needs to penetrate, punching two holes, in, and out.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Hey Michael,

How many of us have used 577NE (or any .585) and 600NE (or any .620) CEBs on dangerous game?

Sam
Don
Me

Anyone else? I'd like to get a sense of how many, if any were recovered and the game on which they were used.

The only CEB #13 I've ever recovered had traversed from elephant occiput to opposite temporal bone laying just under the skin.





Just curious as to how many of these "ultra-bore" rounds have been used on "ultra-game" and the results


Doc,

Aaron Neilson used them on Ele and Buff in the 577 and 600.

I'll have a report on both Ele and Buff (hopefully) with the 577 in October.
 
Posts: 7735 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Buffalo,
Thanks for that laugh. I now have coffee all over my dining room.table. wife is not laughing. Yes your T-Rex will re like the Hammer of Thor.
Michael,
I thought Don took an elephant with his 577. Maybe that was before CEB #13 or maybe it wasn't his 577 but his 500. Hmmmm bewildered


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Hey Michael,

How many of us have used 577NE (or any .585) and 600NE (or any .620) CEBs on dangerous game?

Sam
Don
Me

Anyone else? I'd like to get a sense of how many, if any were recovered and the game on which they were used.

The only CEB #13 I've ever recovered had traversed from elephant occiput to opposite temporal bone laying just under the skin.

Just curious as to how many of these "ultra-bore" rounds have been used on "ultra-game" and the results


Doc,

Aaron Neilson used them on Ele and Buff in the 577 and 600.

I'll have a report on both Ele and Buff (hopefully) with the 577 in October.



You're right - I forgot about Aaron. He and I were hoping to get a bunch of 577NE and 600NE folk together for DG in 2013 or 2014,

THAT would be fun if it can be pulled off.


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by capoward:
lol Michael that is exactly the picture I mentally thought of when reading that other thread. I thought about looking it up and posting it in the other thread but figured the knowledge would be lost on the bulk of that thread's audience; those that know already know and those that don't obviously are to lazy to read this thread to have there questions answered before being asked...



When I saw that idiotic post, this was my first thought too Jim. I also considered the same, but knew for a fact that it would be a useless venture to even begin. All is lost on that audience. They do not understand or comprehend. No need to bother with it. Waste of time.


Todd

I have said it many many times. You will now be stepping off the plane with the most effective 577 Nitro ever to hit the African Continent, right behind Sam as the first, Aaron, Don??, Doc with the 600.

I tested Ultra Bores here "Pre-BBW#13", 600 OK and 577 Nitro. I never seen such an big noise, and unimpressive terminal results in all my life. I would just as soon have most anything else with proper bullets than an Ultra Bore with what was available at that time. Pretty much useless. Ask Sam. Great big 750 Woodleigh FMJ--14 inches of penetration before tumbling. Big Woodleigh Softs, flattening like pancakes to maybe 15-18 inches. Not impressive at All.

Then came the BBW#13. 600 and 585 started earning their not so deserved reputation. I was impressed, and I ain't easy to impress. 750 and 900 BBW#13 Solids started burning through 65-75 inches of test medium like "Butter", dead damned straight. NonCons absolutely "Decimated/Destroyed" test medium, blowing it all over the range. The deepest penetrating NonCon off ALL TIME, is the 600 OK with a 825 #13 NonCon to 45 inches or so! 45 INCHES!!!!!! The most any NonCon has ever penetrated is some of my .500s at high velocity in the mid 30s.

I told Sam when he went with his 577, and all those that followed the same. The most effective 577 in it's history.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Michael,
I thought Don took an elephant with his 577. Maybe that was before CEB #13 or maybe it wasn't his 577 but his 500. Hmmmm




??????
bewildered


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Originally posted by capoward:
lol Michael that is exactly the picture I mentally thought of when reading that other thread. I thought about looking it up and posting it in the other thread but figured the knowledge would be lost on the bulk of that thread's audience; those that know already know and those that don't obviously are to lazy to read this thread to have there questions answered before being asked...



When I saw that idiotic post, this was my first thought too Jim. I also considered the same, but knew for a fact that it would be a useless venture to even begin. All is lost on that audience. They do not understand or comprehend. No need to bother with it. Waste of time.


Todd

I have said it many many times. You will now be stepping off the plane with the most effective 577 Nitro ever to hit the African Continent, right behind Sam as the first, Aaron, Don??, Doc with the 600.

I tested Ultra Bores here "Pre-BBW#13", 600 OK and 577 Nitro. I never seen such an big noise, and unimpressive terminal results in all my life. I would just as soon have most anything else with proper bullets than an Ultra Bore with what was available at that time. Pretty much useless. Ask Sam. Great big 750 Woodleigh FMJ--14 inches of penetration before tumbling. Big Woodleigh Softs, flattening like pancakes to maybe 15-18 inches. Not impressive at All.

Then came the BBW#13. 600 and 585 started earning their not so deserved reputation. I was impressed, and I ain't easy to impress. 750 and 900 BBW#13 Solids started burning through 65-75 inches of test medium like "Butter", dead damned straight. NonCons absolutely "Decimated/Destroyed" test medium, blowing it all over the range. The deepest penetrating NonCon off ALL TIME, is the 600 OK with a 825 #13 NonCon to 45 inches or so! 45 INCHES!!!!!! The most any NonCon has ever penetrated is some of my .500s at high velocity in the mid 30s.

I told Sam when he went with his 577, and all those that followed the same. The most effective 577 in it's history.

Michael


Michael,

I remember that part of the thread very well. You had a picture of the Woodleigh FMJ along side the CEB. Yep, I'm excited about taking the cannon over. I was really impressed with the gun on my first trip to the range. It is very manageable from a recoil standpoint and the very first load I put through it seemed to shoot right to regulation with both the Non-Con and Solid. Knowing how those bullets are expected to perform has me ready to git on the plane! 7 weeks to go but who's counting!!
 
Posts: 7735 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Michael,
I thought Don took an elephant with his 577. Maybe that was before CEB #13 or maybe it wasn't his 577 but his 500. Hmmmm




??????
bewildered


Yeah, that's how I feel right about now. hilbily

Maybe I should switch from coffee to beer about now ...

In any event, no doubt the CEBs are THE bullet tu2


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Michael,

I remember that part of the thread very well. You had a picture of the Woodleigh FMJ along side the CEB. Yep, I'm excited about taking the cannon over. I was really impressed with the gun on my first trip to the range. It is very manageable from a recoil standpoint and the very first load I put through it seemed to shoot right to regulation with both the Non-Con and Solid. Knowing how those bullets are expected to perform has me ready to git on the plane! 7 weeks to go but who's counting!!




Todd, yes I sneak around down on "double rifles" when I know no one is watching--HEH HEH---I saw your targets and yes, your rifle is 100% good to go with BBW#13s. You are ready. Rifle shoots--You Shoot--Bullets are the best--You are "Destined" for success. You cannot fail! You Will Not Fail!

I can't wait to hear the stories!

Doc, I already switched over to the beer, and while it don't help the memory any, I feel better anyway! LOL..............

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Michael,
You had a picture of the Woodleigh FMJ along side the CEB. Yep, I'm excited about taking the cannon over. I was really impressed with the gun on my first trip to the range. It is very manageable from a recoil standpoint and the very first load I put through it seemed to shoot right to regulation with both the Non-Con and Solid. Knowing how those bullets are expected to perform has me ready to git on the plane! 7 weeks to go but who's counting!!


First - I'm counting the weeks - I'm nearly as excited for you as I am for myself. I love reading about these big boomers in use as they were intended.

Second - "I told you so" about the pleasure and ease of using s 577NE

Third - as a rule the CEB #13 solid and Non-Con go to the same place keeping all other components and charges equal. And they go to the same place as Woodleighs for the same charge, in my experience.

Best of luck on the upcoming safari!


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Third - as a rule the CEB #13 solid and Non-Con go to the same place keeping all other components and charges equal. And they go to the same place as Woodleighs for the same charge, in my experience.


That by Design as well! Not by chance!

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by CCMDoc:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Michael,
You had a picture of the Woodleigh FMJ along side the CEB. Yep, I'm excited about taking the cannon over. I was really impressed with the gun on my first trip to the range. It is very manageable from a recoil standpoint and the very first load I put through it seemed to shoot right to regulation with both the Non-Con and Solid. Knowing how those bullets are expected to perform has me ready to git on the plane! 7 weeks to go but who's counting!!


First - I'm counting the weeks - I'm nearly as excited for you as I am for myself. I love reading about these big boomers in use as they were intended.

Second - "I told you so" about the pleasure and ease of using s 577NE

Third - as a rule the CEB #13 solid and Non-Con go to the same place keeping all other components and charges equal. And they go to the same place as Woodleighs for the same charge, in my experience.

Best of luck on the upcoming safari!


Doc, That's one of the great things about the forum. We get to enjoy each other's trips including the anticipation up to departure.

Yep, you did tell me I'd enjoy the 577 and you were correct!
 
Posts: 7735 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Third - as a rule the CEB #13 solid and Non-Con go to the same place keeping all other components and charges equal. And they go to the same place as Woodleighs for the same charge, in my experience.


That by Design as well! Not by chance!

M


and yet another beer beer beer tou you.

And following that

pissers


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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Where the heck is Biebs?

Isn't he in charge of announcing page numbers?

Now on 252.


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Where the heck is Biebs?

Isn't he in charge of announcing page numbers?

Now on 252.




HEH HEH----- animal

I think Biebs can't count that high!!!!!

LOL

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael and Mike:thanks for the good wishes.

I finished shooting both rifles in today -all super, just needed to know where they were at 100yds.

Michael, I think the reason my barrel on the 458SS is a little faster is a tight chamber-your loads won't chamber about 10% of time-I am getting 2570 fps with the 295 gr NC-- tu2

The 416 is chrono-ing with-in 2fps of your numbers--you are the man- beer

The brass issue is good on the 416 shot in good at 50 and 100.

Run a bore snake through them and a few drops of CLP-Breakfree and they are good to go.

I leave for Jo-Berg thursday-Austin-Atlanta-Jo-berg- spend the night at Afton house and pull out for Beit-Bridge the next morning.

primary is Elephant and buffalo- they have good Nyala ,Limpopo bushbuck, and a few Kudu.--not to worried about the PG.

Michael--gonna wait to talk about it but you know what I have planned in RSA over by Kruger after I get through on the Limpopo-the 458 is shooting great.

Will have pictures and stories-just hope I am not the fool in the stories- rotflmo-either way they should be good.

thanks to all the friends I have made here for their knowledge and support for my first Safari.

Checking my list and packing--3 days and a wakeup and I'm on my way.
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael and Mike:thanks for the good wishes.

I finished shooting both rifles in today -all super, just needed to know where they were at 100yds.

Michael, I think the reason my barrel on the 458SS is a little faster is a tight chamber-your loads won't chamber about 10% of time-I am getting 2570 fps with the 295 gr NC-- tu2

The 416 is chrono-ing with-in 2fps of your numbers--you are the man- beer

The brass issue is good on the 416 shot in good at 50 and 100.

Run a bore snake through them and a few drops of CLP-Breakfree and they are good to go.

I leave for Jo-Berg thursday-Austin-Atlanta-Jo-berg- spend the night at Afton house and pull out for Beit-Bridge the next morning.

primary is Elephant and buffalo- they have good Nyala ,Limpopo bushbuck, and a few Kudu.--not to worried about the PG.

Michael--gonna wait to talk about it but you know what I have planned in RSA over by Kruger after I get through on the Limpopo-the 458 is shooting great.

Will have pictures and stories-just hope I am not the fool in the stories- rotflmo-either way they should be good.

thanks to all the friends I have made here for their knowledge and support for my first Safari.

Checking my list and packing--3 days and a wakeup and I'm on my way.


Have a good one. It will go by all to quickly. Did you say this is your first Safari?

I've mentioned this before but I think it was Ruark that said: I've know movie stars, millionaires, and even members of the Royal Family but I envy no man, except the man going on his first Safari!!

You'll know exactly what that means when you get back!
 
Posts: 7735 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Michael,
Alright, you have convinced me. I'm giving my .375 H&H barrel to my son for prairie dogs and antelope. Roll Eyes
However, RIP and I have our .395s which we can use on buffalo. sofa
Oh, I'd better not forget the .458 in the closet, just in case I might need it in Australia.


.395 Family Member
DRSS, po' boy member
Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship
 
Posts: 3490 | Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Registered: 04 April 2003Reply With Quote
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yuck animal


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Hope you will have a great hunt Cross L .

Looking very much forward to the report Smiler
 
Posts: 461 | Location: Norway | Registered: 11 November 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
capoward,
Good enough.
Alf's credentials in the African game fields, bushwar combat surgery, civilian mayhem,
and a half century of the scholarly-scientific-obsessive-compulsive collection of knowledge and dead animals
(such as rhino with a handgun)
give him a pass on showing photos of his lab.
It was relocated from RSA to British Columbia, and all the old experiments he has done do not need repeating, so he likely does not have the lab set up, nor even unpacked all the old evidence.
Wink

I am smalltime in comparison to Michael or Alf, by any comparison. I have limited hunting experience on only two continents, but I am a former flight surgeon with undergraduate chemical engineering background, and have done some "testing" myself, being of the shooter-tester bent.
My favored medium was the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo.

The IWBB is a square-tubed stainless steel and angle Iron (plated steel) frame in which I set plywood boards and flatsided plastic buckets of water in series.
Bolted together like a giant Tinker Toy.
Modular to allow replacement of members damaged by side-veering bullets.
That always happened with roundnose solids.

Ten compartments each 10" deep. 100 inches of IWBB.

The IWBB would be a nice holder for wet newspapers and magazines too. But since I am not a pulpwood tychoon, the plywood and water buckets are easier for me.

Hell, I could put ordnance gelatin in the IWBB compartments in 10" blocks times 10 too, but that would involve an industrial scale mixing and refrigeration plant,
and I would have to buy a quality BB gun to calibrate each block of gelatin before each test shot. Eeker

Animal hide, meat, ofal, bone, anything could go in those flat-sided buckets, but that would require a slaughterhouse at my beck and call, as well as a landfill.
And it still would not be a live game animal,
yet each shot would be different, totally unscientific reproducibility, shot-to-shot.
That would reduce it to anecdotal data from game animals though, eh?

We use what we can make do, us shooter-testers.
We see what bullets do best, guess what is going on with the failures or successes, or get someone like Alf to explain it,
and then take the best evidence to the field.
Evidence-based, NASA-like rocket surgery. Wink

I too need a new cartridge or bullet to whet the desire.

Here is one I need to get Boomer to help me finish designing,
the 12 Gauge/.510 Bore rifle:





The mockup uses the Browning "Little Skeeter" in .410 reduction for 12 gauge chamber insert.
However, in its current external configuration, it is triple-head-spacing: rim, shoulder, and case mouth.
maybe that square, thick case mouth could be tapered to a second neck and shoulder, Weatherby-style venturified of course. Wink

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!" animal


Whatever the individual credentials, whatever the experience in the field of whatever science it may be, it doesn't make a sense to me whatsoever, that shooting solids at 90* angle into the box of dry, damp, wet news paper is the proof of decisive judgement. If a leg of pork, cattle shin bone, shoulder blade etc. would be hit at the front end of the box 5-6" deep and then the line of the bullet taken as a evidence I would be far more incline to at least say this test has at least some miniscular merits to it. Everything said about the FN may be 100% true, but the box test alone is not what I would call a convincing evidence.
However thank's Michael for your effort and the time you've put into it
Pyzda
 
Posts: 288 | Registered: 20 August 2012Reply With Quote
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Very strange ... yuck
 
Posts: 27607 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Everything said about the FN may be 100% true, but the box test alone is not what I would call a convincing evidence.
However thank's Michael for your effort and the time you've put into it
Pyzda


As Michael has repeated on this thread--his test doesn't prove that the flatNose will always go straight in an animal, but he has proven that the round nose is much less reliable and much more liable to veer off course even in a homogenous medium. Hence, don't use round nose when desiring 6-feet of straight penetration in anything other than wood (where roundnoses will do straight).

I've never heard of an anecdotal example of a flatnose solid coming back and landing near the shooter, but roundnose's have apparently done such things in rare circumstances.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4183 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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I guess the elephants and buff I and my hunting partners have killed, not to mention all the other AR members who have similar experience with these bullets in live DG, and then examined the path of the BBW#13 flat nosed bullets have no meaning? Anecdotal, well yeah, but used and examined by real hunters on real DG. I wonder how the scientific method using live elephant and buffalo in the wild would be conducted? Oh, wait a minute, I guess it couldn't actually be done!

What a load a crap, by a new guy with no location. donttroll


Mike
______________
DSC
DRSS (again)
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA

"To be a Marine is enough."
 
Posts: 3575 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
quote:
Everything said about the FN may be 100% true, but the box test alone is not what I would call a convincing evidence.
However thank's Michael for your effort and the time you've put into it
Pyzda


As Michael has repeated on this thread--his test doesn't prove that the flatNose will always go straight in an animal, but he has proven that the round nose is much less reliable and much more liable to veer off course even in a homogenous medium. Hence, don't use round nose when desiring 6-feet of straight penetration in anything other than wood (where roundnoses will do straight).

I've never heard of an anecdotal example of a flatnose solid coming back and landing near the shooter, but roundnose's have apparently done such things in rare circumstances.


Tanzan, this is exactly my point. FN bullet may very vell be and most likely they are superior to the RN solid. The point here is they are not 100% either.

LionHunter from Silicon Valley, man wake up to yourself. Who is kidding who. I would like to see the one who could positively identify and proof beyond any shadow of doubt, that the path of a FN or a RN solid bullet did or didn't veered off course in a animal. In your case I would even question your claim of 13 bullets recovered, let alone the proof of straight line penetration.
Pyzda
 
Posts: 288 | Registered: 20 August 2012Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pyzda:
quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
quote:
Everything said about the FN may be 100% true, but the box test alone is not what I would call a convincing evidence.
However thank's Michael for your effort and the time you've put into it
Pyzda


As Michael has repeated on this thread--his test doesn't prove that the flatNose will always go straight in an animal, but he has proven that the round nose is much less reliable and much more liable to veer off course even in a homogenous medium. Hence, don't use round nose when desiring 6-feet of straight penetration in anything other than wood (where roundnoses will do straight).

I've never heard of an anecdotal example of a flatnose solid coming back and landing near the shooter, but roundnose's have apparently done such things in rare circumstances.


Tanzan, this is exactly my point. FN bullet may very vell be and most likely they are superior to the RN solid. The point here is they are not 100% either.

LionHunter from Silicon Valley, man wake up to yourself. Who is kidding who. I would like to see the one who could positively identify and proof beyond any shadow of doubt, that the path of a FN or a RN solid bullet did or didn't veered off course in a animal. In your case I would even question your claim of 13 bullets recovered, let alone the proof of straight line penetration.
Pyzda


Well there you go. Proof positive that this guy doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. 13 recovered bullets? No. Wake up to yourself man! The number 13 is the name of the bullet as in CEB BBW #13 Solid or Non-Con. It isn't the number of bullets recovered. It's the name of the bullet.

donttroll
 
Posts: 7735 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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