The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Question about stock layout.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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KB With trepidation I will enter this mess, only because I have not seen anyone answer the question you asked over a week ago. "So, my question is it all wrong to cut the blank where the growth rings lay vertical? What does that do to stability, if anything, in comparison to horizontal?" All gunstock blanks are cut with the growth rings best seen in cross section to the length of the gunstock blank. In other words, the blank is cut along the length of the tree. This makes the direction of the fibers or the "grain" along the length of the blank. If you cut a blank perpendicular to the length of the tree, you would have end grain on the side of the blank and that would make it weak. It is undesirable to have end grain "run out" anywhere along the length of a stock. The best example is found in wood that is steam bent. Canoe gunwales, snowshoes, chair backs etc are examples. If the wood has grain run out, it will split when bent. Quarter, rift or slab sawn it makes no difference, the strongest gunstock blanks will all have the grain running from the toe parallel to the bottom line of the stock through the grip to the action with no grain running out the sides. The other factor not discussed is the stock design. Stocks with sharp or abruptly angled grips (think old marlin 22's or Thompson encore stocks)or thin sides (some o/u ) are much more likely to break, largely because they have the grain running out in the weakest area of the grip. I think some of the posters in this thread confuse "grain" with figure or mineral streaking. The figure is clearly evident in your stock. But at least on my monitor, I do not see all 4 sides, therefore I cannot know about the grain flow or the run out. You have a stock design that is not as susceptible to breaking as some, but you should look carefully at the grain from all four sides to see that the grain is running true along the length of the stock. If you have doubts, take it to a stockmaker who can tell you in a quick glance. Perhaps those who have said the advice you get on internet is worth about what you pay for it were thinking of threads like this. This forum has largely been constructive in the years I have lurked here, I hope this meltdown does not change that. Roger | |||
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What have I learned on this FUBAR of a thread? 1: SDH does make artistically beautifully stocks and I would not be afraid to still have him build one for me. 2: Adam Freeman has literally tons of gorgeous wood and I would not be afraid to choose one of his blanks under the advice of my stockmaker 3: Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you are still retarded. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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That is the best bit of wisdom I have ever heard on this forum!!!! William Berger True courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne The courageous may not live forever, but the timid do not live at all. | |||
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This is Boss Hoss' first post from page one. Aside from being factually inaccurate, it is insulting and condescending. A PERSONAL ATTACK! In his post about the PM, Boss Hoss says he was just having fun. Trying to take the 'High Road" after kicking someone in the balls only works with those who are not paying attention. Ditto for Gun Toter. SDH's responding to these low-lifes was sad in the extreme. Doc224/375 summed it up in the beginning. Quarter sawn blanks are more dimensionally stable. Wood cutters cut the trees into blanks, Almost all of them cut for quantity not quality. Gunstock manufactures use everything wood cutters cut. They are producing in volume and can easily replace those that break. Custom stockmakers cherry pick the best wood. Just because someone did something and didn't have a problem does not mean that it is the best thing to do. Kabluewy, You have a beautiful piece of wood. Make that rifle and enjoy it. | |||
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Hi Tommyhawk. I agre with the sadnes in the discussionlevel. Why ignore expierence from largevolum producers, and only accept wisdom from people with comparative werry limited expierence. What is wrong with expierence gathered from many thousand stocks of excact same dimention, and loads. When this statistics ´said that there is no mesurable difference in breakage percent related to the diferent cuttingtypes, as long as the grains generaly runs in the right direction. What makes you belive that wood from the same log suddently should become more stable because it is rotated 90 degres. My guess is that the stability is the same, only difference is in what direction the instability mooves(from pistolgrip and forward) Try to observe that many drying cracks goes 90degres to the growthlines. This is caused by the natural schrinkage process when wood is dried. | |||
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A lot of opinions will be made/confirmed out of this thread and it isn't looking good for a few folks. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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I agree with you more than you might think and do not discount your experience. You might very well be right about the breakage for the different cuts of wood but consider the following. In general, most stocks break 'with the grain' flow. It takes sever pressure to break a stock 'across' the grain. Can we agree on that? Most stocks break through the grip. Agreed? Cracks and breaks from recoil are generally a design, mechanical failure, or quality problem. Agreed? In my experience, which is different than yours, I have seen more flat sawn stocks broken/cracked than quarter sawn. I think this is why. Flat sawn wood cracks/breaks from side pressure. Because of the way we hold and carry our guns the stock is more likely to take a hit from the side. The way 1/4 sawn stocks break is by taking a hit downward on top of the comb. In my experience,this is less likely to occur. There are so many variables here that I am just generalizing. The type of gun and the quality of the inletting are just two of them. All things being equal, I agree with you that proper lay-out of the grain flow is more important than the type of cut. That is why I have told Klabluewy to use and enjoy that stock. To me the biggest difference between flat and 1/4 sawn is the stability/instability. I think you are exactly correct that one is just as stable or unstable as the other. You hit the nail on the head when you said "...,only difference is in what direction the instability mooves (from pistolgrip and forward) Flat sawn wood warps side to side. 1/4 sawn wood will warp up or down. With 1/4 sawn wood you can lay-out the grain flow in the forend so it will warp up if and/or when it does. Your point of impact will be a bit high but your shots will still be consistent. If/when your flat sawn forend warps to the side the accuracy is affected not just the point of impact. "Dimensionally stable" This is book learned for me. I don't see why people that study these things would have a reason to lie about it. Unless of course someone here has bribed them for arguements sake.  | |||
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Just an update---got a PM from Jeffosso who I understand is a moderator. He advised me that I would be possibly banned if I did not go into this thread and retract certain posts. My response is simple the people who need this information already have it and if pressure is being put on the site by Counsel retained by a party that shall remain nameless then why not just pull the entire thread and be done with it. I will not modify any posts I have made for obvious reasons. The other party involved in this has already made several modifications to his posts however, the originals still exist. Nevertheless this could be my last post. | |||
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Sounds serious. I almost believe you. if it is true, good riddance. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Actually, you were asked to delete ONE post that you publically shared a PM, after i told you i didn't have a dog in this fight. Why can i share this? i wrote my side, and I am not including your reply. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The entire thread ain't where the problem is. Same as deleting all gun ownership, because sometimes there's problems. Words, just like guns can be used badly, for the wrong reasons, and when emotions are involved in the mix, it sometimes ain't pretty. Guns don't cause problems, people do - with what they choose to do with guns. Words don't cause problems, people do - with what they choose to do with words. Guns are tools. Words are tools. Either can be a gift, and either can be a menace. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Just have SDH print out the whole thread and run it through his band saw. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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Jeffe Thanks for clearing this up. Mr. Clown has been trying to use innuendo to smear SDH since shortly after he joined this thread. This is just another example of his silliness. Pretty sad, Mr. Clown. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Anybody notice the straight out smearing by one of the participants in this thread other than Boss Hog? ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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Perhaps this site below will explain some of the behavior/comments: Cartoon JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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THAT is incredible! Nice person to do business with, NOT. That may fly in Montana but if someone comes to Texas and makes some of those statements face to face his stockmaking career would likely be shortened considerably. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Very well said! | |||
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Is the gun still available? I may be interested. | |||
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Gun toter I'm with GrandView If you're really going to sell an SDH rifle or shotgun I'm possibly interested too. Steve's work is first class. Jerry Liles | |||
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Run it through the band saw to check for flaws first. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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To be sure, patience with fools, and insulting fools, no less, is classed among the human virtues. On that score alone, I'll probably be damned straight to hell. But, sure as the same hell, I have never posted, and will never post, a PM for public perusal. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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mrlexma, I generally agree. However SDH made the accusation he was threatened via pm. If somebody accused me of that I'd certainly post the pm to prove that false accusation. Making such a false accusation under the guise of pm's being private is cowardly as was the display of cutting up that blank. If anything Afreeman should be going after SDH for slander. The most classless post I ever viewed on any forum. I hope his editors don't read this crap. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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Which statement would qualify as slander?
Nothing SDH posted would even make the top ten classless in this very thread. | |||
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GV, SDH made more than one accusation of Afreeman misrepresenting the virtues of slab sawn wood as to fool the masses so he can sell his "poorly laid out wood". What is left of these posts I don't know, SDH has been busy with the edit function. The truth of the matter is it is a matter of opinion. I see many slab sawn stocks by people just as talented as SDH. As to the rank of the post being classless, a mattter of opinion again. What I find most interesting is how people choose their sides. Many choose the side of the talented SDH from a groupie point of view. Many find Boss Hoss annoying as do I so by default fall on SDH's band wagon. For those with the ability to avoid those influences it is clear SDH is a temper mental child with a bit of a God complex in the stock wood world. I still enjoy his books and his work but he is what he is. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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I think more than one of us see this type of grain flow in the gunstock at issue. A more complete photo would verify that.....as well as how it's further oriented by examining the butt end. I would offer that SDH was spot on in his assessment.  | |||
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Holy smokes Grandview! Only a blind man or a fool could argue with that. What do you want to bet one or the other will show-up shortly...... Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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How was cutting up a piece of wood "cowardly"?  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Grandview, excellent illustration. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Back to the question about blindness. Heard that obama passed a law giving anyone acces to health insurance. Hopfully this law also gives help for glasses or guid dogs(for blinds) If grandview's drawing is correct, then it must have been a hell of bend log it was cut from. Maybe it is from one of the famous, almost legendary (cork screw walnut trees, growing in the area around South Bend  )Please take a thorough look at the stock pictures on pg 1. Now you will se, that the slabsawn growthlines goes completly paralell to the sides of the stock. They actually looks like pancakes specially on the right side of the stock. If you want to ilustrate that sloppy, atleast se to that all evidence is removed, before trying to pull that kind of joke | |||
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WOW! I just signed on to this thread again, hadn't read it since the 3rd post. I'm sure glad I didn't have a dog in this race! Got tired of reading after the 2nd page but have read enough to conclude that: I agree with Jerry Liles(I oughta stay out of it). I also agree with D'Arcy Echols(both cuts can be suitable). IMO BossHoss is an example of all that's WRONG with Texans. LUXUS prices are too high for me but so are SDH's(G). As a long-time single-shot rifle enthusiast and builder, I can tell anyone that the majority of breaks in old Winchester single shot (and lever rifle) stocks occurred in FLAT-SAWN stocks, period, end of discussion. The disparity(~80-90%) is so great that there's really no room for any credible argument. Also, almost all breaks were obviously a result of side pressure and not recoil since most of the broken stocks I've examined were from small-caliber rifles having no appreciable recoil. Whether or not this info translates into bolt-action rifles, well.....however, since I've already restocked my share of sidelock shotguns as well as single-shot rifles, I've concluded that I'll use quarter-sawn wood for all 2-piece stocks except those actions having a socket with a drawbolt. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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At least two of those "pancakes" on the right side of the action you can see developed on the overhead shot. They travel from the right side of the stock in front of the recoil lug area, and curl out by the rear tang screw. The two lines on top of the stock behind the rear tang screw are already angling out the right side of the grip and comb nose. Where they exit on the right side of the stock is fairly obvious in the right buttstock photo. You can certainly see the grain in the forearm top photo. It exists as I've drawn it. I think there's ample evidence to believe it exits the wrist and butt as I have it drawn. I think you can extend the two lines behind the rear tang to exit where shown in the photo......out the wrist and comb nose. Perfectly willing to be wrong by evidence of a full top view photo.
Whoa big fella! No need to disparage my artistic endeavor! It wasn't an attempt to remove evidence. It was an attempt to further develop what the existing evidence shows. It's not a contest..... | |||
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What a shame this thread has blown up..........This is a topic I'd like to learn more about. There is a lot of good information here..mixed in with to many childish outbursts. There are examples of how to disagree honorable....and disagre badly. Experts in many fields do not see eye to eye. But personal bashing and insults are the end game of a limited mind. One thing it does show me , is who I would not deal with for any work in the future  | |||
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Possibly. But "swinging" grain of that type is not as uncommon as you imply.....in either blanks or semi-inletted stocks available for purchase. One of the "advantages" of do-it-yourselfers is we likely make stocks from more "bad" layouts than a professional stocker ever will. Here's an example of a semi I built for a 1903 Springfield. Almost perfectly quarter sawed, but pretty bad layout. And the grain certainly has a wicked curve. Not difficult to imagine orientation to flat sawed and imagine the affect. I know what I have, and knew it when the stock was purchased off ebay. If I'm lucky, the stock won't move too much, and I won't carelessly drop it out of the case and have bad things happen at one of its many weaknesses.    | |||
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That is a nice looking rifle  .....can you explain why the layout is bad? I am just trying to educate myself. | |||
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Hi grandview Sorry that you misunderstood my sence of humor in the first reply. The remark of remooving evidence was about the possibility to go back on pg 1 and 2 and there see several pictures of the stock from different angles. There you can se the nice pancakes on both sides of the buttstock, telling you that the growthline in the buttstock is almost perfectly parallel to the stock, this is not the case in the frontstock, where there is a little runout, but of no importance what so ever. About the pictuers of your nice stock, i'll argue a little on your statement about the perfectly Quatersawn blank. From specialy the middle picture , specially the frontstock and the lower back part of the buttstock, it indicates more of a riftsawn blank, where the butstock is fron ether close to the root, where the log expands in diameter. Or it could as well has been cut upside down, with the butt end just under a big branch, or "Chrutch"(y split of a tree) Btw Thanks for answering in a civilized way is it possible for you to take a picture showing the stock specialy the underside, taken from front underup. This would say alot. | |||
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Thanks, Buck. It's not junk, but it does have "problems".......even beyond my style and workmanship. Heh Heh...
It has a "weak" grip where the grain runs out at the top. Prone to breakage from a vertical stress. The grain curves upward in the butt which leaves the toe vulnerable to chip out. Once again under stress.......(and that amount of stress undetermined.) The grain isn't parallel to the barrel at all, and is vulnerable to movement......in this case away from the barrel. In all modesty, it isn't the worst looking stock, and it could last for generations without problem. But it is not something you should pay any money for a professional to build. I have less than $600 in the entire ensemble, and much of that is in the Lyman 48 and the Douglas barrel. I think a lot of people on the forum fall into the same financial/talent bucket I consider myself. I know what top work is......and I'm not there. I know what correct wood is......and I seldom happen on it, or spend the required money to acquire it. That doesn't prevent me from acquired the knowledge and using it where it most benefits me. | |||
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No problem. I do think many of us disagree with your assessment of the subject blank, but more photos would go far to decide the issue. Hopefully they will be forthcoming.
Here's a couple upper buttstock and lower forearm for discussion. Let's rescue the thread.   | |||
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Good pictures Can we now agre on more or less "riftsawn" | |||
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Heh Heh......yep, we can agree...."more or less"..... I'll leave you to explain the technical location, cuts, degrees, and other. One of the best comments on the issue I've read were....."If someone says they want quartersawn , they could mean that they do not want flatsawn, but they may be okay with riftsawn. The definitions are not clear." | |||
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When looking at a stock blank, are you looking at both 1/4 sawn and flat sawn blanks the same way? Or are there different parameters that are desired for each? Can we get some examples or pictures of each type showing desired layout vs. poor layout? | |||
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. Don't worry about carving a stock for me----I only use the best and you ain’t it. BTW I have some "wood for you” that is slab sawn and if it will “warp side to side “ before your quarter sawn blank then you can have it (it is dimensionally more stable that what you whittle on)! Remember what Mama taught you---never play another man’s game..
