I have a question about the grain of the wood layout in a rifle stock. I don't know correct terminology, so I'll just explain as best I can.

Imaging the growth rings in a tree, then cutting it into a slab to later be turned into a rifle stock. If the cut is a certain way, the growth rings will lay horizontal in the finished stock. If cut another way, the growth rings will lay vertical, more or less, in the stock.

So, my question is it all wrong to cut the blank where the growth rings lay vertical? What does that do to stability, if anything, in comparison to horizontal?

Thanks

KB

You are asking about "slab sawn" Vs. "quarter sawn".

If you do a search here you should come up with a bunch of info.

This should illustrate what your asking . Quarter Sawn is more stable dimensionally .

Angular Rays or Fleck sometimes confuses people in regards to grain orientation . Check Links .

http://ericmakesmusic.wordpres...from-logs-to-lumber/


http://westcoastlands.net/SawmillCuttingMethods.html


http://www.oldtreegunblanks.co...eblanks.php?woodid=5

Thanks for the suggestions and links. They are really helpful.

I have committed to buy the stock, for a mini-mauser project. The seller has been very informative about the stock. He did allow for an inspection period. Through further discussion, (edited slightly) here's what he says:

(quote)
"This stock is nearly full slab sawn, which helps show off all the wonderful color and streaking. It is an age old argument about stability. I think that if modern, state of the art finishes are used on a properly aged blank, stability won’t be a problem. If you only used linseed oil on a blank like this, in my opinion, you would be asking for trouble.
This blank has been in my dry climate for nearly two years that I know of, (don't know how long my friend had it in his stash before I got it.) so it should be as stable as it gets. Plus by being roughed out as a semi-inlet, and then being allowed to set for more than 6 mos., any internal stresses have had a chance to do whatever they were going to do. So now when it is made into a finished stock, odds are it won’t move, in my opinion.
If you are going to hunt in Alaska with the finished rifle, I would make certain that whomever finishes the stock uses a true "waterproof" modern finish, and fully seals the inletting and all end grain with epoxy or something similar." (end quote)

Here's pictures of the stock that has me asking these questions:

Sometimes I just have to open my mouth or light up my fingers...this is one of those times...

Just for the record...I have nothing to do with the blank/stock in discussion here.

The stock above is about as true flat-sawn as you will ever find.
There is nothing wrong with flat-sawn whatsoever. Especially in English/Turkish...

The blank above is clearly California-English.

We have processed 10's of thousands of stock blanks. I have seen every possible cut move while drying. 80 - 90% do not move.

The problem with the opinions of this cut vs. that cut is that they are handed down from other wood industries.
Sure, if you are using fast growing pine to build your home you might want to consider the cut.

But when you are dealing with the finest hard wood on the face of this little ball floating in space, I would pay it little consideration.
If the wood quality is there, the cut matters little.
What you should stay away from is crossing grain anywhere but in the butt of the gun. Crossing grain is EASY to ID.
That is the grain that tends to move when in the forend...because the forends are MUCH thinner than the buttstock.

Most all gunstock blanks are a rift cut. Maybe 15% is FS and another 15% is QS

Buy the above stock...finish it into a gun and enjoy. Put aside what cut is best, it is a waste of brain cells.

As for the finish...if you head to Alaska or anywhere wet...oil finish is fine. Just use wax on your stock every other day while you are there, providing it is raining that is.

Oil finish+wax+sweat+blood+dirt+gritty fingers from gunpowder+years of the above handling makes the damn finest finish possible.

Departing Question:
Is a baseball bat QS or FS?
How many bats have ou ever seen that were warped?

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
Sometimes I just have to open my mouth or light up my fingers...this is one of those times...

The stock above is about as true flat-sawn as you will ever find.

There is nothing wrong with flat-sawn whatsoever. Especially in English/Turkish...

The blank above is clearly California-English.

Buy the above stock...finish it into a gun and enjoy. Put aside what cut is best, it is a waste of brain cells.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
That there is about the best explanation I have ever seen here on AR concerning the age old question of flat vs. quarter. Better yet, it came from somebody who knows what they are talking about.

But the question that could be then asked is why the quarter sawn blanks are priced considerably higher than the other blanks if they are both of equal quality?

Thanks a lot Afreeman for taking the time to give such an excellence response. I was hopeing someone would, but was beginning to think no one would really jump out there.

I have bought the stock, and yes 22WRF, I think I got a good deal. The price was a little less than I figured the cost of a modest quality California English quarter sawn blank, and then I would have to pay duplicating costs in addition.

The seller is a custom builder, who bought it from another gunsmith, and was going to use it himself, but for whatever reason changed his mind. I'm delighted that he made honest disclosure about the stock, and called it right as slab or flat sawn, (same thing I think) which actually highlights the color and figure of the grain. I really like the way the stock looks, so I was only worried about the stability out of my ignorance. So, I took a chance when I bought it anyway, before reassurance. I was worried that it would get away, and the price was such that I figured I wouldn't get hurt too badly, even if I rejected it later.

You may find it amuzing that I have been through at least four rejects on stocks for this project. And I lost count of those I looked at closely, but didn't buy. This stock is the fifth purchase, not counting two blanks. So, walnut stock purchases are tough issues for me to deal with.

KB

We don't have a clear view of the wrist itself but from looking just ahead of it in the top view, the grain appears to run quite true side to side on the top of the wrist in the semi-inlet stock above.

SDH, You have been at this a lot longer than me so enlighten me as to why this is not acceptable? As far as I know, cross grain in the wrist/grip is a no no (as Adam pointed out) but if the grain runs parallel vertically or horizontally through the wrist, doesn't this make it a good strong blank? I'm not trying to be a smart-alac here, just don't get the "very bad advice" comment.

A baseball bat is labeled so that the ball is to be hit from the "quarter sawn" side with the growth rings perpendicular to the face but a gun is hardly created to take a large force from a side hit. It is just as likely to accidentally be fallen on or hit from the top as the side. The crossing grain that allows the common recoil forces to break a stock are the real danger as far as I can see. This has nothing to do with quarter sawn or flat sawn but grain flow from front to back on the stock blank. If the grain flows on a diagonal from front to back, this is the cross grain issue. If it happens in the butt section it poses little threat but if it happens in the wrist it can create a weak stock. If it does so in the forend it can cause issues with uneven pressure on the barrel and accuracy issues.

Again I don't mean any disrespect but I don't get it???????? Maybe the words are simply getting in the way, it may take a show me what you mean approach. Are you saying that you think flat sawn blanks are weak blanks in all cases? I would fully agree that if this was a quarter sawn blank that the lay out is poor as the grain flow appears to run accross the grip but it is flat sawn so there in lies the confusion for me.....

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by Trez Hensley:
We don't have a clear view of the wrist itself but from looking just ahead of it in the top view, the grain appears to run quite true side to side on the top of the wrist in the semi-inlet stock above.

SDH, You have been at this a lot longer than me so enlighten me as to why this is not acceptable? As far as I know, cross grain in the wrist/grip is a no no (as Adam pointed out) but if the grain runs parallel vertically or horizontally through the wrist, doesn't this make it a good strong blank?

I think SDH and I are seeing the grain "running out" the right side of the grip. In the top view of the stock the grain seems to be headed downward(in relation to the photo) the from the rear guard screw.

The side view of the stock seems to bear this out.

quote:

quote:

A baseball bat is labeled so that the ball is to be hit from the "quarter sawn" side with the growth rings perpendicular to the face but a gun is hardly created to take a large force from a side hit. It is just as likely to accidentally be fallen on or hit from the top as the side.

You are correct about the bat. Sometimes they break cleanly across the grain(usually at the thinnest part, the handle) and sometimes they shatter(usually in the thicker part, the barrel), but most often they split along the grain from the handle on up towards the barrel.


This is similar to most stock failures. Usually they don't break "through the wrist", but rather "from the trigger cavity/rear guard-screw-hole on out through the side of the wrist". Duane Wiebe has stated that this has been his observations also, IIRC. I believe that is what is shown in SDH's photo.

In the case if a stock breaking due to a fall, once one side breaks from the trigger cavity on out through the side of the wrist along the grain the forces are concentrated on the other side to the point that they break across the grain.

This is why the "threaded rod epoxied through the wrist" does little to prevent stock breakage.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

But the question that could be then asked is why the quarter sawn blanks are priced considerably higher than the other blanks if they are both of equal quality?

One reason that quarter sawn wood is more expensive than slab sawn is that the mill can get more slab sawn blanks out of a given log than they can quarter sawn.

I'm learning something and enjoying the discussion. When the stock arrives, I'll take some better pictures and post them.

Meanwhile, here are pictures of a stock that didn't grow the grain this way while on the stump. The layout of this stock was not of nature, but through the choice of marketing, expediency, engineering or whatever.

The point is that they had a choice to make the laminates vertical or horizontal, and clearly chose vertical. I certainly don't mean to ask a dumb question, but it seems to me that strength would be one of the main considerations, which one would think has not been compromised in the laminate.

Thanks to you guys, I now understand about run-out or the grain running cross ways, and not parallel on a natural slab sawn gunstock, and how that would be a problem in the wrist and forend.

So, what's the problem if the grain is running parallel, mostly as close as it gets in natural wood, with no cross grain or run-out?







KB

Steven,

With due respect...

First of all the question posed here on this thread was concerning the stability of FS Vs. QS.
They are equally stable.

This thread had nothing to do with the strength of one cut vs. the other.
Never could the factual statement be said that one of those cuts is stronger than the other when equal force is applied to either of them in longitude or latitude direction.

Please reread my first post...the departing question was about the bat "warping".

That was stated as an example all could relate to as to whether or not one cut was more stable than the next.

As for strength of the flat cut, I shall provide visual examples in my following posts.
It is not an argument that I will discuss beyond this post.
I will make my visual points and leave it at that.

Second, I have been doing this wood cutting and selling to low volume stockmakers and high volume gun companies for a long time. Along the way I have also turned over 700 blanks myself. I own a multitude of flat-sawn stocks on my own guns, and they get hunted HARD. The blanks that I know that have problems...any problems, are never associated to the cut. Almost always other reasons such as bad inletting or a hidden void, or as in the example of the stock you showed photos of, most likely it had to do with a fall or some other accident. Much like the laminate in the following photos...and who among us had ever heard the great and stalwart virtues of laminates espoused on us and about us in the light of a campfire or smoky gunshop?

Third, the English walnut stock in the photos above that Kableuwy was asking about does not run out of the wrist as suggested by JBrown. Please take note of the steep parabolic curves of the grain on either side. They are far apart and happen past the wrist. It is more than safe. If it is a real dense blank then it could be used on anything…Matter of fact the layout is very similar to the B&W photo below of the almighty and legendary Rigby 416, and that alone should cast a long dark shadow of doubt on whether or not flat sawn is worthy of being used for a rifle…and that means any rifle.
Look close at the photos.
Too, that is an original stock on a Rigby that has been hunted its whole life.


Lastly (almost), another departing statement in the form of a story I often share.
We (Luxus) have a customer who worked at G&H for many years. Years ago he stated to me in person that all he ever used was QS wood for his stocks. He asked my to pick him a nice QS rifle blank upon my return to the shop.
I did, and it was a perfect layout, for a QS blank. Right up out of the toe as well. He called me after receiving the blank and asked if he could return it. I said of course. But I also had to ask him why. He said he just likes QS blanks. So, being a little wise about the situation I asked him to please describe what he is looking for in regards to grain flow on the four sides of the forend. And he said:

"Adam, I like the grain to run straight on the two faces and straight on the top".

So I sent him a Rift cut blank and he loved it. Thats all he buys today. All Rift cut blanks. Some day I might tell him he does not use QS wood. But he is my senior and teaching old dogs new tricks is a waste of time.

Many stockmakers have different opinions of wood. However, they all have one thing in common...they believe their view to be the biblical truth.

Jack Haugh, one of the greats among the ranks of stock makers is a close and personal friend of mine. I love him like family. Jack is in his late 70’s now. He has been building custom guns since he was a teenager. He has built a very large number of guns. He is a national treasure.
I will quote him from a discussion much like this one.

“Adam, F*c# it, they all deserve to be built into gun handles”.

Now on to beautiful old examples of the gun making juggernaut British Empire and their apparent mistakes of using FS wood for over a century.

Maybe someone should notify them as to their mistakes.

Steven, I will buy you a drink next time I see you. I will be a gentleman as long as I am treated the same.

Best,

Adam

English guns built using flat sawn walnut.

Flat sawn blank on a J. Wilkes double rifle.

The caliber was/is a big nitro.

Alex Henry single shot.

Flat sawn lumber...

Here is a little piece of scrap Turkish walnut that happens to be flat sawn. It is under the weight of a 3/4 ton Ford.
It bent for a little while before it finally splintered.
All the other pieces of wood, maple, Black walnut, and pistacio snapped right away.
They are short fiber woods and do not flex well.

Tell me that it was not strong and capable of flexing...as needed under recoil.

and what of the strength of laminates...

Steven,
I treated you with respect and as a gentleman.
You clearly do not wish to do the same with me.

Your statement about the wood we sell prooves your reason for coming at me to begin with.

You are perfectly correct.

Rigby and many English gunmakers are wrong and Steven is right.

Or is it possible that both of you are?

O and by the way...over on the Custom guns section here on AR Forums.
There is a thread about Darcy Echols wood stocked guns...
Several of those are flat sawn.
Darcy is one of the best that has ever picked up a file and made a stock.

I am done with childish BS.

Part of the reason I posted is also for the benefit of others to learn something too, and I had hopes of encouraging those with real expertise to respond. So, I am grateful for your time and generous answers gentlemen.

There is a lot to like about this forum, but frankly one of the things I don't like is demonstrated here. I get the impression sometimes that those with the most relevant and informative things to say just don't bother, because they have been there before, and got put down, or had the discussion turn personal, and they just don't like to argue or expose their reputation to such demeaning stuff. This is a shame, because we can all benefit from such vast experience and knowledge, even if there is a difference of opinion, which is most often.

I just wish folks would be more careful and not make a difference of opinion so personal, which discourages postings. To me, the difference of opinion is hardly important at all. It's the posting that's important, most especially when specifics supporting the opinion are given.

Anyway, thanks again.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Here is the graphic:
Weak grain through the wrist

SDH,
Of course I can't disagree with you about the character of slab vs quarter sawn, because I just don't know, and your knowledge and experience vastly exceeds mine on this. However, I think I disagree with your assessment of this particular stock regarding run-out of the grain. Just by drawing the lines in as shown on the picture, does not convince me that this stock has cross grain or run-out or whatever it is called. Even if the growth rings were parallel through the wrist, there would be some dark lines just from the curvature of the stock as it reduces in size down into the wrist. The same kind of lines appear in the laminated stock, in the same place, and those laminate layers are far more perfectly parallel than natural growth rings could be.

Also, I see the run-out/cross grain in the example in the picture of the broken stock. The stock I'm getting doesn't show lines like that in the place where the break occurred. I'm thinking the lines on my stock are from the curve of the shaping, where the lines on the broken stock are in a relatively flat area.
KB

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Let's see one of your flat sawn custom stocks under that tire! If you are going to do a stunt, so a real one!
To answer some specific thoughts.
1. Recoil seldom breaks stocks. Dropping them does. In which case it doesn't matter if it's a .22 or a .470.
2. Contrary to current assessments, British bolt and single shot rifles of the last century were the second class products. The stockers saved the quality quarter sawn wood for the first class shotgun stocks.
3. Quarter sawn is often down graded in price because it is less flashy. Wood sellers push the fancy slab wood for exorbitant prices.
4. Laminates are not comparable to naturally grown wood. That is why they do it.
5. Quarter sawn wood will warp up and down, not side to side like slab sawn. This most often occurs in the forend and has the most affect on consistency.
6. I recently saw a Model 21 Winchester with wood very similar to the above stocks. It was horribly broken in two some 60 years since new. They may have survived this long but...

It's your choice! I believe that most professional stockmakers will agree with most of what I've said.
Best,
Steve
(Wood for Rifle Stocks is discussed in depth in the Sept. and Oct. issues of Sports Afield.)

SDH you realy disapoint me.
I would suggest that you trie to get a little basic understanding about how woodgrain can split, not break.
Simple practice in understanding the splitline of wood, you can get by chopping a little firewood. Then you suddently would expierence that wood spilt equaly easy no matter if it is flat or quatersawn, no matter what angel you split it in(as long as it is longitualy)
With my rather limited production of more than 30.000 riflestocks i can only agree 110% with AFreeman.
But on the other side i ame only a simple manufacturer, and not a highly selfpromoting atrist, with several books published.

From seeing a few broken stocks i can see that if you drop a rifle sidewards, it would split longitualy in a horizontal plane if the wood is black american. If it is European, it will often break crossgrain in the pistolgrip. There is no difference whether it is flat or quatersawn.
My simple guess is that i have seen just as manny or more broken stocks, as you have designed and created totaly. Most of the broken stocks i have seen, was the original stocks from other mfg's where we supplied replacement stocks.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Let's see one of your flat sawn custom stocks under that tire! If you are going to do a stunt, so a real one!
To answer some specific thoughts.
1. Recoil seldom breaks stocks. Dropping them does. In which case it doesn't matter if it's a .22 or a .470.
2. Contrary to current assessments, British bolt and single shot rifles of the last century were the second class products. The stockers saved the quality quarter sawn wood for the first class shotgun stocks.
3. Quarter sawn is often down graded in price because it is less flashy. Wood sellers push the fancy slab wood for exorbitant prices.
4. Laminates are not comparable to naturally grown wood. That is why they do it.
5. Quarter sawn wood will warp up and down, not side to side like slab sawn. This most often occurs in the forend and has the most affect on consistency.
6. I recently saw a Model 21 Winchester with wood very similar to the above stocks. It was horribly broken in two some 60 years since new. They may have survived this long but...

It's your choice! I believe that most professional stockmakers will agree with most of what I've said.
Best,
Steve
(Wood for Rifle Stocks is discussed in depth in the Sept. and Oct. issues of Sports Afield.)

Jezzz you sound like a bitter little old man . Don't worry about carving a stock for me----I only use the best and you ain’t it. BTW I have some "wood for you” that is slab sawn and if it will “warp side to side “ before your quarter sawn blank then you can have it (it is dimensionally more stable that what you whittle on)! Remember what Mama taught you---never play another man’s game..

The “Walnut” that was used to stock Model 21’s were grown in conditions that allow for fast growth (US). This does not promote strength or density when compared to “Walnut” grown in the “Caucasus Mountains” for example. As one of the premier carvers that exist you should know that.


You need to sit down, change your depends, dry off, put on a little powder and look at things from a fresh perspective and try not to be such a pompus ass.

@Afreeman
n
Not very important in the context of the thread, but the picture of the Rigby rifle shows not a .416 but a .350 with the stepped down receiver ring.

Mr. BossHoss,
Just who in the hell are you really? You get on AR and Pontificate like you are God's gift to gunsmithing. I would really like to see something You Mr. Hoss have worked on. I went to school at TSJC and learned stock layout the same way Steven Was taught. Ed Schulen Taught Steven and Dave Nolan, Dave taught me. I have no dog in this fight as I buy wood from Adam and have communicated with and respect Steven's views. Both sides have made some valid points. . I see it as very hard to fault a custom builder who is extremely picky in his stock layout and wood choices, of course I am that way too and have been known to frustrate wood sellers because of this. My customers do not seem to mind though. When it comes down to it, its your nickle, you might as well spend it on a stick of wood you approve of.
Steve Bertram

http://www.bertramandco.com/

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Mr. BossHoss,
Just who in the hell are you really? You get on AR and Pontificate like you are God's gift to gunsmithing. I would really like to see something You Mr. Hoss have worked on. I went to school at TSJC and learned stock layout the same way Steven Was taught. Ed Schulen Taught Steven and Dave Nolan, Dave taught me. I have no dog in this fight as I buy wood from Adam and have communicated with and respect Steven's views. Both sides have made some valid points. . I see it as very hard to fault a custom builder who is extremely picky in his stock layout and wood choices, of course I am that way too and have been known to frustrate wood sellers because of this. My customers do not seem to mind though. When it comes down to it, its your nickle, you might as well spend it on a stick of wood you approve of.
Steve Bertram

http://www.bertramandco.com/

Steve---no offense here but the wood I use is not something that you most likely work on. If you think that Steven is picky then you would find me impossible and maybe that is a good thing because I do not compromise on sporters or competition rifles. When buying a walnut blank for my “collection” as I am a wood whore by definition and will never be able to build various firearms with it all -- it must be SICK.

You can call down to Trinidad and I am not going to mention names here but there are several people that know me as well as couple who build rifles for me.

If you are at the Guild show next year you will see one or two of my rifles on display.

Was just pointing out that SDH is not someone who will ever be getting monies controlled by me and I do not care if he is personally anointed by Jerry Fisher , he is a pompous ass the way he treated Adam Freeman who has done a lot more for the industry than SDH has of ever will if you cannot see that I am sorry. Could have mentioned the donations that were and are made to the students in need of project wood at TSJC after I called Luxus and mentioned some students needed help and could not afford a blank for the required stock making course or the blanks that I have personally donated to the school for students to use (7 last year and they were not firewood either). There are a lot more charitable contributions made by Luxus but that is beside the point you brought up TSJC which I am a staunch supporter of esp the new Third Year Program !!!

Things are not always as they seem and I do not have to be nice just tell the truth especially when someone deserves being taken to the "wood shed" so to speak ..

I am not a Gunsmith but I did stay at Holiday Inn last night!!!!!

and who are you? I know a few folks around TSJC myself. And If I was going to trot out guns to show off, well lets just say most of the ones I would show would leave you wondering why you own the ones you do. Real BEST quality stuff. Yeah your probably right about the wood I buy, cheap stuff. Once again, who are you so when I call an ask about you it is not some handle from a website I am asking about?

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
and who are you? I know a few folks around TSJC myself. And If I was going to trot out guns to show off, well lets just say most of the ones I would show would leave you wondering why you own the ones you do. Real BEST quality stuff. Yeah your probably right about the wood I buy, cheap stuff. Once again, who are you so when I call an ask about you it is not some handle from a website I am asking about?

No I will not be trotting guns out to the show lol. These guns will be mine but the makers will be showing them. One will is actually SN 1 by the way (lucky to get that one and we will see how good you are – who made the action] [/URL][URL=
and the barrel has been made by Speedy with a Very tight spec 416 Rigby reamer built by Kiff on the only tubes that are used for my rifles a Krieger(all of my rifles shoot bug holes period). The Integral rib, sling swivel that was machined in while the barrel was being turned among other things, will have some other neat things performed to it but we decided to abandon the switch barrel concept (338 Lapua and 416 Rigby)because of the time involved. Chuck will be working on the action and making this jewel come to life putting it all together and carving a Sick piece of wood to go on it. The engraving will be done by Lee who is a FEGA Master Engraver who has already handled the action and knows just what to do. .

Will make sure and tell Speedy and Chuck that you make products that will make me “wonder why I own the one I do” hmmmmmmmm being one is the VP of the Guild and the other is Speedy ] [/URL]you have a ways to go. Tell me how does shoe leather taste??? Both Ruth Ann (gone to Denver now) and Sandi knows me---just ask them about the guy from Texas who rides the bikes with V8 engines lol..
[URL=

V8 engines in bikes eh? Gee that just oozes class and refinement. The action I can not say who made. Bolt gun are really not my favorite. I prefer single shots and like getting close to my critters. But I digress, lets start with shotguns shall we.



1924 vintage H&H Royal, best gun in original condition.

For rifles I like open sights and traditional finishes.

Things like Best Quality single shot rifles.



You may be thinking you have seen this one before. It is on the cover of Winfer's book.

Double rifles of a certain vintage can be nice.



If you like Sidelock rifles that is.

Nice picture of Speedy by the way. Best I can tell you should be called Blow Hard. You have no real credibility if you are afraid to say who you are.

Kabluewy,

I had a slab sawn stock that was laid out very much like the one you posted, with grain run out at the wrist.

It also broke in two just as SDH has described.

Quarter sawn and proper wrist grain only for me, please.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
and who are you?

He's been around awhile. You'll learn to ignore him soon enough.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Kabluewy,

I had a slab sawn stock that was laid out very much like the one you posted, with grain run out at the wrist.

It also broke in two just as SDH has described.

Quarter sawn and proper wrist grain only for me, please.

I had a stock with similar grain flow and it cracked just like the one SDH pictured. On the way back from a trip I opened the gun case to see the stock split...the other rifle was just fine.

It seems clear that SDH was pointing to the grain flow....I would not purchase a stock that had that type of grain flow based on my one experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Part of the reason I posted is also for the benefit of others to learn something too, and I had hopes of encouraging those with real expertise to respond. So, I am grateful for your time and generous answers gentlemen.

There is a lot to like about this forum, but frankly one of the things I don't like is demonstrated here. I get the impression sometimes that those with the most relevant and informative things to say just don't bother, because they have been there before, and got put down, or had the discussion turn personal, and they just don't like to argue or expose their reputation to such demeaning stuff. This is a shame, because we can all benefit from such vast experience and knowledge, even if there is a difference of opinion, which is most often.

I just wish folks would be more careful and not make a difference of opinion so personal, which discourages postings. To me, the difference of opinion is hardly important at all. It's the posting that's important, most especially when specifics supporting the opinion are given.

Anyway, thanks again.

KB

Again
There is a lot to like about this forum, but frankly one of the things I don't like is demonstrated here. I get the impression sometimes that those with the most relevant and informative things to say just don't bother, because they have been there before, and got put down, or had the discussion turn personal, and they just don't like to argue or expose their reputation to such demeaning stuff. This is a shame, because we can all benefit from such vast experience and knowledge, even if there is a difference of opinion, which is most often.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coming from you Kabluewy I would say that is the most hypocritical statement I have seen on AR in a long time......

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Thanks Steve and mrlexma!
I'm sure you realize I am being criticized by the best and most knowledgeable.

jergen has only made 30,000 rifle stock, one at a time from blanks of high grade European walnut. Pails in comparison to the 300,000 bolt handles he welded one at a time with full penetration.

Steve

Sorry Steve
Your memory has a tendence to fail You. When my memmory lets me down in that way, i call it "alzheimer light"
I have never welded any bolthandels, and only forged about 14.000 -16.000.
The over 30.000 stocks we have produced, was for apx 80% Black American Walnut, and the apx 20% was mid to high end european walnut both french, italian, spanish and for the last 10 years Tyrkish/Iranian/syrian/armenian (also commonly known as circasian)
Luckily i have the privelege to have acces to more modern productions teckniques as a set of trained beavers.
I always think of a guy who do everything by hand "poor devill, as he dont have a mashine to doo it" I remember with hooror the first 5-8 years i worked in this buissnes, then i also had to do most by hand. Luckily i was born so lazy, that i invested in some equipment to get out of that terrible habit of excersicing fysical labour.

One of the reasons i prefere automized and/or extensive production, is that by this i have the chance to produce so mutch, that i get acces to sutch a large database, that i actualy can measure, how things react, with a reasonable degre of certainty. And not only from so feew, that it tendence towards guessing

Hi Steve
Please understand that i in no ways is trying to critisise your craftmanship or quality of products.
But i have a quite different aproach to the trade. And from a quite large number of produced units over more than 30 years of mfg, i have made so many mistakes that i have atleast some kind of reference to what works, and what don't.
Tessier supplied a couple of hundred blanks for our production in the early 80th, so i am pretty well aware of the frensh walnut from him.

Maybe you have been thaught about layout from someone, i haven't. But i have seen and handled so manny that i guess my first hand expierience from more than 30.000 riflestocks produced over more than 30years counts a little. Atleast it is a quite substantial referencebase for collecting knowledg about how wood behaves.

One thing i have learned, is that this buisness is full of "faritales" and "foklore" often spiced with a lot of misinformation handed over by former local gurues

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:

Luckily i have the privelege to have acces to more modern productions teckniques as a set of trained beavers.
I always think of a guy who do everything by hand "poor devill, as he dont have a mashine to doo it" I remember with hooror the first 5-8 years i worked in this buissnes, then i also had to do most by hand. Luckily i was born so lazy, that i invested in some equipment to get out of that terrible habit of excersicing fysical labour.

How do your stocks compare to Steven's as far as quality? Price????

Will rifle builders still be studying and discussing your stocks in 50 years?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

How do your stocks compare to Steven's as far as quality? Price????

Will rifle builders still be studying and discussing your stocks in 50 years?

I have no idea about the quality of Steves work, but from what i have seen, it is excelent. The prices, i can guaranty you that ours is way more competetive.
In this debate i find it irrelevant what people discuss in 50years.
The relevance in this discussion is the number of stocks available for gathering expierence about how they react.
I guess that out of 1,000 stocks apx 1-3 breaks pr year.
So if i only produced 10 pr year, i probably never would se one of my stocks broken. And how would i ever know if what i was dooing, was better or worse, than everything else. As statistical i would only se 1 broken stock every 30 years.

Please understand my statement, that because you make a hell of a fine stock, it doesent mean that you have unlimited knowledge about all aspect af stockmaking, even that your selfconfidence might lead you to belive so

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
There is a lot to like about this forum, but frankly one of the things I don't like is demonstrated here. I get the impression sometimes that those with the most relevant and informative things to say just don't bother, because they have been there before, and got put down, or had the discussion turn personal, and they just don't like to argue or expose their reputation to such demeaning stuff. This is a shame, because we can all benefit from such vast experience and knowledge, even if there is a difference of opinion, which is most often.

I just wish folks would be more careful and not make a difference of opinion so personal, which discourages postings. To me, the difference of opinion is hardly important at all. It's the posting that's important, most especially when specifics supporting the opinion are given.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
Coming from you Kabluewy I would say that is the most hypocritical statement I have seen on AR in a long time......

I would like for you to give me an example of that, so I can either appologize, affirm or explain. All I can say at this time is that it's something to strive for, but I cannot take the stand that I haven't been there - done that. Nevertheless, does one need be guiltless before accusing others, or is there more credability in "it takes one to know one"? Either way, I can appreciate being amongst them.

Another thing that I try to avoid is invading someone elses discussion with soemthing that has little bearing on the topic. Again, I may not be completely innocent, but I usually use restraint, which I recommend to you as well.

Let these guys hash it out. They are doing a good job of it.

KB

wow..what ive been missin while i was away at church.
ding ding ding. in this corner. we have..........blah...blah...

I am reading this with some disbelief.

SDH may very well make some nice stocks. that is not relevant to this threads start.

Kabluewy asked about layout..........that was LAYOUT!!
on a stock that he was wanting to buy.

AFreeman gave him advice to buy it. and ENJOY it.
WOW, and then SDH came on hammering AFreeman. and for what???
Other than to show SDH's ass.

There is NOTHING wrong with the stock Kabluewy wanted to buy and apperantly did buy. It does NOT run out of the wrist...WTF are you talking about???? IT DOES NOT RUN OUT. Look at the top of it. It is almost perfectly straight thru the wrist. that is slab or as spoken here flat sawn. thats the same thing. slab and flat

kabluewy good on you sir for calling it like it is and telling SDH to piss off.

AFreeman then presented examples of English gunmakers over a lot of decades who have been using slab sawn walnut for their stocks.
SDH......who the hell cares if it was on a shotgun or rifle?
truth is a double rifle is more important with consideration to heavy recoil then is a shotgun.
are you that slow in the head?

I would say AFreeman cut your ass off at the knees SDH. He showed all of us that do not write but prefer to read here on ar that the english probably know something your arrogant narsisist personality does not want to accept.
You are not perfect nor is your opinion.

All you have done is show your ass. let me say it again..........show your ass..........and to potential customers here on ar.

AFreeman has presented himself as a class act.

all of that being said. I will admit, i have bought wood from AFreeman, and i own a gun of yours SDH that i am now considering selling.

in due course i called Adam after this thread started.
i asked him what he had ever done to piss you off that you would come after him as you did.
in a testament to his character he asked me to let this all go.
he even mentioned that he was baffled. he said he sent you some free gun stocks a couple years ago...............is that true?
if that is true then that sir is a testament to your LACK of character.

i do not think he cares about your continued rants on this thread. he mentioned he was dealing with a very tragic family mater this weekend while you are on here attacking his character.

your statement about his poorly layed out wood prooves you are an ass of the tenth degree. Then you mention the one that was layed out to your aprroval for the school in colorado, and that one passed your aprroval?

i read through all these post and not once did he make a disperaging remark about your work.yet you come after him.
spaid is a spaid sir and you are a great ass.
dont let me see you at any show.

are you that fuvking perfect?
a perfect ass.

go away. ar does not need your type.

holy crap i forgot.

kabluewy, adam mentioned that he would give you a stock for free if yours ever warped or cracked. even when he had nothing to do with your stock at the beggining of this thread.

that is putting up or shutting up SDH.

adam dont be upset for me telling that. but i had to mention it.

lets try to put this thread back on track about the various cuts of gunwood.

experts care to chime in?
i do not blame you if you do not but hope you will.........................

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:

a perfect ass.

Speaking of such, thanks for posting(twice!) on this thread. I always enjoy looking at your avatar.

it is a nice image. i must always have ass on my mind!



that is something to keep in mind.
we are all gun guys. why must we bicker?