The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Long Range Shooting What distance for hunting? (Or how much wind?)Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Technology and conditions are not good enough. Let us remember that it is a human being behind the rifle, with all the usual human weaknesses and vulnerabilities as well as ego, that has the ultimate responsibility. Can the hunter put the bullet in the lethal area every time under every condition? I think that defines ethical behavior. NRA Benefactor Member US Navy Veteran | |||
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Eric Cortina has been putting out some great videos he calls the "ethical hunter challenge". They have to hit an moa vital target @ 500 yds. Most of the rigs seem to be pretty advanced, but not all. Its surprising how many miss at that distance, some fail pretty bad. And this is with bipods in the prone position. Not exactly typical hunting conditions. Its pretty telling. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I had this talk with a 24yoa man the other day. He been bitten by the long range bug. I told him he better take of reloading as he can't afford enough factory ammo to get good. He is shooting a 300PRC factory is 3 to 5 plus dollars a round. I told him equipment and Technology will only get him so far. I told him a thousand plus rounds shot in good dedicated practice is a good start. You could see him doing the math in his head. I told him you will spend far more on ammo then the rifle if you want to acquire the skills necessary. We will see where it leads. | |||
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Interesting. I saw a Thomas Haugland on YouTube as THLR.NO. Discuss his 500 meter cold bore test. He discussed it with Aaron Davidson on Long Range Pursuit podcast a couple years ago. Looks the same except 1 minute time limit. | |||
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Those Cortina videos are interesting. Some of those shooters have amazing creditials/wins in the long range competition shooting world. It's wild to see how many of those rifles cost more than many of us would spend on a pickup truck... and weigh more than 20 pounds. I've never heard of some of those actions and chassis - and wouldn't use most of those cartridges on anything bigger than a coyote. (Not exactly average field hunting gear.) I think it would be a bit more realistic if they didn't allow the shooters to watch each other (and hear each other's interviews) to learn what the wind is doing. Some of them take forever to take the shots which, like shooting from the low prone position, isn't applicable in all hunting situations. It definitely shows how hard that shot is though, when many champion shooters, even with super high-end rigs and a ton of time to set up, miss the vitals. The few times I've seen Cortina try it, even he hasn't hit it. I can only hope that the videos teach a few people to actually HUNT and get close enough to make a high percentage shot. I've enjoyed being around shooters and hunters my whole life, and guided thousands of people. But this long range "hunting" trend shows the most self-delusion of anything I've ever experienced. I've had friends and clients bang away on my long range steel (in calm conditions off of a concrete benchrest), only to finally connect after one to two dozen rounds - and nearly that many suggested corrections - to then decide that the eventual "hit" somehow qualifies them to be fake-sniping at game animals at similar distances. I'm always stunned by that logic. There is a video on YouTube somewhere with a bunch of buddies recreating the Corina 500 yard video. Nobody in the entire group hit the vital area, and many of them missed the entire target. Yet in the interviews at the end of that video, when asked what their maximum hunting range is, most of the guys still named rediculous distances. Including one of the guys, who had just missed at 500 yards, proclaiming his maximum hunting range as 700 yards! I guess they figure bluffing can work out in poker, so it should be good in fake-sniper hunting too?! After decades of guiding, the school of crawling-through-the-brush-for-hours-after-wounded-animals has taught me that the percentages for the average hunter to hit an animal in the vitals aren't real high until we're within 100 to 125 yards. And the more someone brags about never missing a long range target, being an amazing long-range shooter/Navy SEAL sniper instructor, etc., etc... the closer they have to be to make a good shot. (In my experience, the opposite has been that the many truely amazing shots I've guided over the years never bragged at all - their shooting did all the talking.) For years I've been saying that long range hunting is easy... as long as you have no conscience about wounding game and just delete the vidoes that don't portray you as a hero. | |||
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Agree. I have a MPA PMR Pro 2 rifle ordered. I picked 6.5PRC. Up to 500, it and the Creedmoor are almost the same, ballistically. But when you go up to 1000 or more, the PRC really outperforms the Creedmoor. As to the guys missing at 500, there is another guy on YT called "Backfire" he had a video where a guy boasted he could hit almost 100% targets at up to 600 yards. He wound up missing like 65% of his shots. Erik Cortina has some very interesting content. Have learned much watching him. Paramount Tactical, even more. Never even thought about some of the technical aspects of scope mounting that he discusses and educates. I wanted a legit PRS rifle due to some of the LR opportunities near my home. There are 3 long range site within 20 miles of my home, Ben Avery has the Berger range at 1000, Cowtown has a good open desert, elevated steel range and the BLM has built 3 ranges here, all are free to use. One is a 200 yard, bermed range, which gets busy, The others, Saddleback Mountain and Baldy Mountain are 30" steel gongs at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 and 700. Almost no other users at those. I've grown tired of just using my hunting rigs and using Kentucky windage. New rifle will have a Zeiss LRP Z3 6 x 36 x 56 Mrad first focal plane scope on it. Might even try some competitions. Rifle/Scope both fit the production rifle class. I'm really surprised that there isn't more talk on here about PRS rifle shooting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzvQS0KWEZ0&t=957s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HigGCNn10OY And the Backfire video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Md8rHxftrM Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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In my previous post, I made mention of Paramount Tactical and scope mounting. Thought some of you might learn something, as I did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG8CchRYlDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KaM299a3IM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsiZKRKnkb0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDBmS5P08j0 Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Yes, that Backfire video, with the bragging Marine, was painful to watch. He seems like a nice enough guy and I appreciate his Service, but I couldn't help but wonder how many animals he's wounded and lost with that delusional over-confidence in his shooting. He was even cleanly missing relatively close one-gallon jugs, yet still bragging about his long-range prowess. You mentioned 30" steel. I think a person has to be careful about being honest with yourself with those large plates. In my experience, it's easy for a shooter to let that ringing and swinging of the large steel plates let you forget how much smaller the vital areas are on all the game we hunt. I use 8" plates at possible hunting ranges - to keep the positive feedback reasonable. Of course, some game will have much larger vital areas than that, but you also won't typically have the ideal conditions we normally have on the range (not being out of breath, having tons of time to build your rest and settle in, time to evaluate the shot, target holding still, having “sighters” to cheat the wind, etc.). Just for playing with the physics of the long-range shooting (but always making the point that it has nothing to do with ethical hunting) I've hung a 30" at 1,000 yards and 1 mile. It was a real eye-opener to me, when after about a year and many hits on the 1,000-yard plate, I went out to repaint it and found that ZERO of the (again many) hits were in the center region of what you would consider a vital area on a deer or antelope. So other than an occasional lucky brain or spine shot, nearly all of those other "hits" would have resulted in wounded (and very possibly lost) game. To that point, some students that came to me to extend their range a bit were mentioning another school they attended that had them "hitting" out to 750 yards. They were better than average shots, with good gear, but in my opinion, had no business taking shots on game that far. When they worked on their technique, they were hitting quite consistently on a kill size area at 300 yards, but we agreed that the hits at 400 yards and beyond probably weren't consistent enough to be ethical. Yet they claimed this other school had them "hitting" out to 750 yards with the same gear, ammo and conditions. Being a bit skeptical, and wondering where I was lacking in my instruction to see such a huge disparity in hit percentages, I looked up the other school they referenced. That school bragged about using 4 FOOT square plates at all distances…. I guess I could help people bump their game-sniping delusion to a MILE if I just switch to having people shoot at the side of a barn. A "hit" is a hit... right?!? | |||
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Agree with your assessment 1000%. I’m probably in the minority on this, but I see the LR game and hunting for living objects to be two different sports. My hunting shooting, is limited to a couple hundred yards. Most shots at animals are, like you said, rushed, out of breath, poor position or rest. The rifle I have coming is NOT a hunting tool, but a tool to play the LR game without the handicaps that TRUE hunting rifles have. Im a lifelong cyclist. I ride both Mountain Bikes and Road Bikes, love them equally. But like the two disciplines of shooting being discussed, I see them as different sports. Great reply BTW. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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My soapbox on long range shooting is that it often takes superior animals out of the gene pool, either by killing or wounding bucks/bulls/rams that other wise would live. Older smarter animals that have learned how to avoid hunters...up to a point. It is almost like a moral vs. ethical decision. | |||
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There are plenty of hunters who wound game are short range. I have have broken shooters down to 90%-7%-3%. The 90 percent owning the firearm is enough they are hardly ever practice they are very content just having one. The 7 percent practice more and take their shooting some what seriously. The 3 percent the gun guys they eat, sleep and dream guns. They shoot more rounds per-year then the other 97 percent in a life time. One can move up and down on the scale. I have yet to have a animal complain about what it was killed with or at what range it was killed at. It is very much the shooter responsibility to know their own limitations. So you can't hit at running deer at 20 yards, you can't hit a deer at 150 with you open sights, You can't hit a deer standing at 300 with your scoped 25-06. One can go on and on. Just because you cannot or will not doesn't mean someone else cannot. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Long Range Shooting What distance for hunting? (Or how much wind?)
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