Except for PD's I have shot way more ammo in practice then ever hunting.

I failed to mention all the shots at "reasonable" ranges that I've passed up because conditions were not right.

One sticks out in my mind: I stalked into a big herd of aoudad rams and one was a real trophy. I was within 250 yards but the wind was blowing.

This in itself isn't a huge issue but the ground fell away from me so I couldn't shoot prone. I tried to get steady sitting but in the wind it was to no avail. I tried a low bush but wind was so brisk that it kept moving me, the rifle and the bush. I never fired a shot!!!

I throw this out as one example of: there's way more to it than just the distance!

The setup, rest, conditions and time are THE factors for me within MY reasonable ranges.

Sometimes the shot just should NOT be taken on game animals!

Zeke

The discussion I was hoping to have is how far can a competent shooter with proper equipment reach out BEFORE the wind becomes a major factor?[/QUOTE]

1. What is a competent shooter? David Tubbs competent or just Billy Bob competent?
2. What is proper equipment? Rifle, rest system, ammo accuracy in the platform, bullet design, mechanical limits of accuracy just to start.
3. What wind? Just one wind or 2 or 3 perhaps? At what distances and angles to flight path?
4. Spin drift, issues shooting N, S, E or W etc.
5. What is a "major factor"? Missed animal, wounded animal?
6. crbutler is right on point with adding: What if the animal moves while your bullet is traveling? How much do you care about that? This is the major factor for me and many other hunters.

Define the wind(s) and "a major factor". Most competent long distance shooters, cannot take advantage of their rigs inherent mechanical accuracy. It is almost always the Indian and not the bow that matters. You cannot buy "competence".

quote:

The discussion I was hoping to have is how far can a competent shooter with proper equipment reach out BEFORE the wind becomes a major factor

I have shot 10's of thousands of rounds at PD's with all kinds of wind.

But then is it a full. half or a quarter wind.

There are so many factors one can not come up with I am comfortable that far with that wind.

I have shot thousands of round aiming dead on then measuring the bullet drift.

Just to learn the wind and what effect it can have on shot placement.

There is no standard shooter each one varies by there own experiences.

I know what is reasonable to me.

But for others who knows except for their selves.

I can tell you trying to shoot P dogs in a gusty 10 to 40 mph wind. Is a waste of ammo.

Geeze, just forget about it. I forgot that everyone on the internet is David freaking Tubbs. My bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Geeze, just forget about it. I forgot that everyone on the internet is David freaking Tubbs. My bad.

OH, I'm way better than David Freaking Tubbs! LMAO

Personally, I'm just a hunter and a shooter/gun-hack who shoots weekly (when I'm not hunting) so I don't shoot weakly in the field!

I'll shoot at a target at any distance or condition just to prove to myself that it's too far to shoot when hunting. Those who don't just think it's as simple as dial and shoot. They would be wrong.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
The discussion I was hoping to have is how far can a competent shooter with proper equipment reach out BEFORE the wind becomes a major factor?

1. What is a competent shooter? David Tubbs competent or just Billy Bob competent?
2. What is proper equipment? Rifle, rest system, ammo accuracy in the platform, bullet design, mechanical limits of accuracy just to start.
3. What wind? Just one wind or 2 or 3 perhaps? At what distances and angles to flight path?
4. Spin drift, issues shooting N, S, E or W etc.
5. What is a "major factor"? Missed animal, wounded animal?
6. crbutler is right on point with adding: What if the animal moves while your bullet is traveling? How much do you care about that? This is the major factor for me and many other hunters.

Define the wind(s) and "a major factor". Most competent long distance shooters, cannot take advantage of their rigs inherent mechanical accuracy. It is almost always the Indian and not the bow that matters. You cannot buy "competence".[/QUOTE]



I'll field a couple of your questions unless you're just trying to pontificate as to why a guy shouldn't shoot at range.

If you're not going to pay any mind to wind. limit your shots to 200-250 yards. If you guess at the wind (but it's in the forefront of mind), you could possibly extend that to 400. If you use an anemometer and learn to read wind, you can extend beyond that but I'm not going to tell YOU how far YOU can shoot.

Spin drift is going to apply and might help with wind hold depending on wind direction, speed and value but there is always spin drift. Coriolis effect will have a slight effect on POI depending on the direction of fire.

Yes, you don't want the animal to move and If unsure, don't shoot.
I don't shoot farther, in the hunting field, when wind is high (above 10 and preferably closer to 5 or zero) or when its gusting. P dog shooter summed up my feeling on that pretty well.

You don't have to be Tubbs but if you're bob, shoot more. WAY more!

Major factor IS THE WIND so shoot more so you know.

If you're asking about the cartridge, platform, optics and suitable rest for accurate field work, you need to study and shoot more.

There's a few, according to me, and now I need a nap!~

If that's not a bit of what you're looking for, best speak to an expert then.

Zeke

Zeke,

I take exception to his assumption he can buy his way into it along with a good amount of You-Tube training. That and his question was tough to understand, and he snapped at people who tried to make something out of it.

I think that is a common thought and 80-90% wrong that you can buy your way into being a good long-distance shot. The analogy I like is to musical instruments. I cannot buy a Stradivarius, watch a metric shit-ton of You-tube and become even borderline competent. Same for his "modern precision rig".

As to your statements:
I agree with where I think you are coming from.
Long distance precision shooting (not minute of buffalo) is mostly technique and SCIENCE, both of which are relatively easy to work on improving. But you actually have to work on it, which involves studying the concepts then experiencing them under a wide variety of field conditions and from the bench.

You mention the major factor is WIND. I agree 110%. I think of Wind as the ART of precision shooting. I would bet real money that you and everyone who answered here, knows that the farther away your bullet gets, the more a given wind moves the bullet. And of course, The damn wind can change direction or angle, as well as speed at distance.

The horrible truth is that the wind that matters most is at the target and gets less important as you move back to where you are set up with wind meter in hand.

Lastly. For me I only shoot at living unwounded targets at out to 500 yards. Conditions such as the quality of my position and the animals state, as well as the wind along the route must meet my standards or no deal. That sheep I shot this fall involved a perfect rest on a desert hilltop with my shooting bags. Say 95% of a bench rest. Absolutely no wind at me, none I could see to midrange and the rams kicked the dirt to bed which showed no wind at target. 460 yards at a bedded and calm animal, very unlikely to move during the bullet travel time. One shot just where I was aiming, and he died quickly without ever standing up. I suspect that is the minimum standard you and I hold ourselves too.

Go ahead and correct anything here, I am always learning.

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
Zeke,

I take exception to his assumption he can buy his way into it along with a good amount of You-Tube training.

That was really a Dick thing to say, as if you know anything about me at all. All I was trying to do is have a little down to earth discussion about shooting out a little farther than the usual 300-400 yds and that is the kind of response a guy gets. Its no wonder this forum is so dead.

quote:

All I was trying to do is have a little down to earth discussion about shooting out a little farther than the usual 300-400 yds and

That wasn't the question it was far more generic.

One can study wind tables a long time and come up with what a cartridge' and bullet will drift.

Then one can decide if he has the knowledge and skill to use that combo to hit effectively.

Not really. I did ask in my original post about going beyond the usual 350-400 yards. I also mentioned Big Game, not Varminting. You are correct about referring to wind tables though. They are a good reference for what I was asking about. I was just looking for a little real world feedback. It seems like there are typically two schools of thought regarding long range shooting. Those who consider 400 yds to be long range, and those who consider 1000 yds the minimum standard. The distances in-between dont seem to merit much discussion.

The problem is the usual

There is really no usual in Northern Wisconsin the usual is 50 yards

When I hunted out west I have killed big game from 25 yards to over 300

Yes it is harder to hit things in wind out pass 300 yards.

A longer heavier sharp pointed bullet make for less wind effect

I like 180 BTSPs in 30 cal because I have shot them enough to know what they well do

Any combo that is close to them works for me

I feel good to 700 yards under the right conditions

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
The problem is the usual

I gotta give you that. No such thing as normal.

I have a swaging die set on order that will make 6.5 bullets very similar to Sierra Matchking or Gamekings. So I am looking forward to stretching the legs of a couple rifles with those when the time comes. I expect to be using bullets with a G1 BC from 550 to 600. I just finished the chamber in one rifle today. 260 AAR.

Most of the time when I am hunting around here I am in canyons where there isnt a lot of wind, but not always. It kicks up pretty good on the ridges. And where I like to practice close to home is in the desert so the wind is much more present there. It will be interesting to do some testing. I intend to shoot a lot out beyond 400 yds, just because. Nothing too dramatic though. I will leave the coriolis effect calculations and such to the pros.

Folks,

What I have found in my conversations with guides and PH's is that many "Long Range Shooters" have all the necessary equipment but not the skill. I tend to believe that rifle familiarity and actual field experience trump all the wiz bang equipment you can buy.

I think that very few of us can really make consistent kills beyond 400 yards. There are just too many variables encountered in the field.

I don't shoot beyond 400 yards. What that mean is I can site-in 2-3 inches high at 100 with my 270, 30-06, 7 and 300 mag caliber rifles and expect to hold dead on at 300 and high in the body at 400. No special equipment necessary. As mentioned the KISS methods works for me.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

What I have found in my conversations with guides and PH's is that many "Long Range Shooters" have all the necessary equipment but not the skill. I tend to believe that rifle familiarity and actual field experience trump all the wiz bang equipment you can buy.

I think that very few of us can really make consistent kills beyond 400 yards. There are just too many variables encountered in the field.

I don't shoot beyond 400 yards. What that mean is I can site-in 2-3 inches high at 100 with my 270, 30-06, 7 and 300 mag caliber rifles and expect to hold dead on at 300 and high in the body at 400. No special equipment necessary. As mentioned the KISS methods works for me.

Mark

That's probably 100% accurate for you and your guide's customers and probably accurate for 95% of the hunters out there but.... (I cannot even imagine the crappy shooting most guides have seen)

The average hunter shoots maybe, MAYBE 3-4 times per year. They cannot even begin to compete with a guy who shoots 50+ times per year at ranges that are short to "very long" under bench AND field conditions, studies nonstop, tries every laborious trick and tip to tailor his loads for maximum accuracy AND has all the refined tech advances to boot.

I think Mark's statement is accurate yet it isn't a blanket since it doesn't cover everyone.

Most big game hunters will never been exposed to solid "long range" shooters. It's in our nature to be independent and so we all perhaps think we're as good as it gets.

Zeke