That's probably 100% accurate for you and your guide's customers and probably accurate for 95% of the hunters out there but.... (I cannot even imagine the crappy shooting most guides have seen)

The average hunter shoots maybe, MAYBE 3-4 times per year. They cannot even begin to compete with a guy who shoots 50+ times per year at ranges that are short to "very long" under bench AND field conditions, studies nonstop, tries every laborious trick and tip to tailor his loads for maximum accuracy AND has all the refined tech advances to boot.

I think Mark's statement is accurate yet it isn't a blanket since it doesn't cover everyone.

Most big game hunters will never been exposed to solid "long range" shooters. It's in our nature to be independent and so we all perhaps think we're as good as it gets.

Zeke[/QUOTE]

This made me think about people I know who brag how they are still working through the box of 20 they bought in 2010.

I have found that anyone who thinks of themselves as "good" or "good enough" with a rifle, pistol or shotgun, is done ever getting much better. I have found that attitude is important and the shooters who beat me regularly to a person all think of themselves as "not good enough" and they still need to work to get better.

Haven't been on AR much since I built my CO house. Here, I shoot every day at ranges out to 1056. Most of my shots are at 760 and 910 (but I do take one shot a day at 100 yards standing).

I would absolutely agree with Erik Cortina. If the wind is not gusting big time (in the CO mountains it often is), I can hit my 760 15" plate just about every time. I almost never miss my 620 yard plate (10"x12") but hardly bother unless the wind is blowing.

I have an extra iPhone set up on a spotting scope to record every shot.

Today I started off at 760 with a .338 Edge. My iPhone indicated gusty winds, and they sure were. The wind was blowing hard at me, but fishtailing from 11 to 1 oclock. It was cloudy and no mirage. In my experience, I have overestimated the effects of a head on wind, trying to time the 11 or 1 oclock wind. Today I held 1/2 MOA right. At the shot, I groaned, because I could see snow in front of my muzzle drift left. There was no "ding" from the bullet hitting the plate. Normally, if I miss it isn't by much but today as I watched the video it was clear the vapor trail passed the target by about 1.5 MOA to the left - I haven't missed by that much in a long time. Even more surprising, the snow my bullet threw up drifted to the right big time!

A few hours later I took another shot. Same rifle, same target. This time the wind was left to right for the most part, but there were times it went the other way. I held 2 MOA for wind and hit about 3" below my point of aim and 2" left.

About 2 hours ago I took a shot at my 620 yard target with a 300 RUM. Held 1.5 MOA for a fairly consistent wind and hit 2" high and about 2" right.

If there is no wind, hitting the 910 gong within 6" of center is pretty easy. But at that range, if there is ANY wind you have to compensate for it and it isn't always easy to detect.

Here is what I have learned:
1. If you can't shoot at long range at least several times per week, you are fooling yourself.
2. If you shoot at the same location, you are fooling yourself. At my CO place I know as soon as the sun comes up there will be a slight wind left to right, requiring a 1 MOA hold. Call it range bias.
3. If you are not using a rangefinder that compensates for barometric pressure (elevation), spin drift, and aerodynamic jump, good luck. At 700 yards, my bullets impact nearly 1 MOA high at my CO place (elevation 8750) versus the AZ desert (2400).
4. Second shots are easy but don't fool yourself: identify your first round hit ability, and only when you have had time to see conditions change.
5. High BC bullets at reasonably high velocity is noticeably easier. That 300 I shot today shoots 200 Nosler ABs at 3140; it drifts significantly more than my Edge shooting 300 Bergers at 2880. (I also use two other 300 RUMs shooting 220 ELDX, two .338 Lapua with 285s, and two 28 Noslers shooting 195 Bergers - all are about as good as it gets.)
6. Time of flight is a huge problem. Bullets hit the 620 yard gong almost instantly; not so for the 910 yard shots. Watching the videos it is amazing - and a fact that you must estimate the wind within 1 mph or you have a reasonable chance of missing. It is nearly impossible to do this because the wind can change in that one second TOF.
7. Wind in the CO mountains is insanely more difficult than the AZ desert. Shooting in the Midwest is the easiest, but one place I used to shoot in MN was a long road through a forest - that certainly shielded the wind.
8. Holding a Kestrel in the air is not a waste of time, but certainly not a firing solution.
9. Learn to use the side parallax of your scope to "see" mirage. On days I can see mirage and use it to estimate wind I am nearly 100%. My hit rate plummets on cloudy days with gusting winds (today).
10. Your rifle doesn't shoot one hole groups at 1000 yards, but we ignore this fact when looking at wind. A really accurate rifle can shoot 5" groups at 1000 yards. This leaves 2.5 inches on either side of your group for wind error, assuming your vital area is 10." There isn't a bullet/load combination alive that drift less than 2.5" in a 1 mph wind. That means there is no allowable error and no tolerance for wind to change in the TOF.
11. If your velocity is deviating much more than 20 fps from the average, you are going to have excess vertical dispersion.
12. Shooting at a range that has flags is almost unproductive. Range flags make the impossible possible and will result in your use of them instead of field techniques like mirage.
13. I shoot at rocks at long range often. It is amazing how difficult it is to find a rock 1000 yards away - the terrain often looks completely different on the ground vs your scope. Think about that when it comes to finding blood.

Aaron Davidson at Gunwerks is now espousing the merits of the 7 PRC. Why? Because, in his words, it allows you to see the impact of your bullet. Think about that: if it was possible to hit a deer at 1000 yards every time, why not use a Lapua? Because he knows it is impossible and instead relies on feedback from his first shot to correct for the second, assuming a gut shot animal doesn't wander off.

IMHO, AnotherAZWriter is someone who shoots enough that when he speaks, I listed to see if I can learn something.

I agree with Navaluk, If a guy thinks he's a good enough shooter, he might be short-changing himself and damning his learning and "longer" range development.

I refuse to have a "good enough" attitude!

I love to be humbled! Then I know what's too far for game under certain conditions. As I said before: It's NOT as simple as buy, dial and kill!!!!!

Zeke

Thanks for the kind words Zeke, but like you, I have learned from others as well. For example, I used to dial for wind way back in the day, but others told me holding off is better.

I totally agree that "buy, dial, and kill" isn't going to happen without practice. If you have to dial, you better be practicing.

The other thing that irritates the hell out of me is the notion that if you can't hit a deer at a 1300 yards, others can, because they are better. At some point, a combination of wind, TOF, and rifle accuracy makes it impossible to hit 90% of the time, which is my goal.

I was on a deer hunt in eastern CO last month. We had a deer bedded at what my guide said was 450. I wasn't so sure - it was flat and the only way to range was to go off a doe that occasionally stood up. Otherwise, the range I was getting was all over the map (we were prone). The wind was blowing hard at 11 or so. Plus, there was a house about 200 yards behind the deer - it appeared to be abandoned, but there was a vehicle there. I practice in strong winds at 400 a lot and know it takes a lot to miss at that range. But with everything going on, I decided to go with our other other option: belly crawl to a group of yuccas about 300 yards away. That shot would put us at angle I felt comfortable with respect to the house. We got the crawl done, I attached my bipod, waited 4.5 hours for the deer to stand, and I whacked him.

Knowing one limits is all important.

I had a fellow tell me he shoots deer at 500 yards with open sited 336 30-30.

I asked him to my 600 yard range. He never showed up.

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
IMHO, AnotherAZWriter is someone who shoots enough that when he speaks, I listed to see if I can learn something.



Zeke

Yep. He gave a lot to digest in a single post. Good stuff!
Thanks Another Az writer, good to see you back!
I would LOVE to be able to step into my back yard and touch off a few every day. What a benefit that would be, not only for practice but for load development as well. Maybe in a few years. Retirement is getting close.

Shooting game under hunting conditions off a matt with everything but a computer to guide your bullet
at known ranges is fascinating, but simply isn't my cup of tea. fair chase was my game, I loved the sneek and guess and by gosh at the range that I kept at 200 to 300 most of my adult life. I enjoyed the hunt as much as the kill..


Today I shoot my whitetail from a stand, my mule deer from the pickup window and my elk off a hay stack all at under a 100 yards and if you live as long as I have you may be doing the same thing..It aint hunting but it'll do and make your cardiologist happy with game diet...

I worked as a gunsmith.
Customer asked "If I have to shoot an elk at 1000 yards what do I need?”

Better hunting skills.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Shooting game under hunting conditions off a matt with everything but a computer to guide your bullet
at known ranges is fascinating, but simply isn't my cup of tea. fair chase was my game, I loved the sneek and guess and by gosh at the range that I kept at 200 to 300 most of my adult life. I enjoyed the hunt as much as the kill..


Today I shoot my whitetail from a stand, my mule deer from the pickup window and my elk off a hay stack all at under a 100 yards and if you live as long as I have you may be doing the same thing..It aint hunting but it'll do and make your cardiologist happy with game diet...

If you KNOW, before taking the shot, that with the current conditions, all of your shots will go into a 4" circle, go ahead! Distance and wind have nothing to do with it.

I have all the knowledge and know how mentioned, studied it for ions, and I have had bad shooting hunts and safaris,and missed a deer or two at 25 yards, Its when the red gods of hunting frown on me, not if but when!

I know that if one never fires a shot one never gets their game.

Practice shooting various ranges in the wind at all angles and
wind speeds.

Know the limit of your bullet's optimal performance zone for
expansion and energy. Practice and operate within that range.

Ballistic apps and a Kestrel are a good place to start.

Get physical data on your load, make record of the data and
tape it to the rifle, I've seen phones go dead in the cold.
In other words have a physical back up that won't go dead.

I like a 6 inch diameter plate in front of a 4x8 sheet of plywood.
Dust signatures are too subjective unless you and your spotter are really
good at know what you just saw as far a miss is concerned.
.
You'll learn as much from your missed shots as you will from the hits, probably more
as the hits take care of themselves.

Gain as much knowledge and practice as it takes to get consistency at ranges beyond 300 yds.
Time on the range shooting and practicing makes a huge difference. Learn from it.

After all this and you don't feel good about a long shot on game you're not ready or the
conditions are undoable for your skills.

Obviously get as close as possible after all it is a hunt and there are no rules saying
you need to shoot from certain distance, the closer the better as the name of the game
is to kill the game not shoot for score or bragging rights about range.

Distance doesn't matter if you know your load's and gun's capabilities. Obviously with a 1 MOA rifle you can't accurately shoot to 2,000 yards or so but at 1,000 an accurate rifle and a shooter who can shoot it, can hit their target. As long as wind is not factor!

In the real world, wind not distance matters. Gravity is constant for a specific location so if you know your trajectory you can hit what you're aiming at. Wind however is never constant and even a steady wind over 1,000 yards can vary in direction and force in major ways.

Wind is the great decider and for high winds hitting at 100 yards can be an issue.

One of my favorite guns/ loads in a 40 mph wind deflects 2" at 100 yards, 8.4 inches at 200 yards and over 22 feet at 1,000 yards.

I used to shoot 1,000 yard matches in Cuyama, California, famous for it's winds and at times you could not dial in enough windage to hold the bull at 1,000 yards I used to resort to holding the bull for the upwind target next to my target to stay on paper 12 feet away.

Here's a photo of the Cuyama range at 1,000 yards. The flag at 200 yards is blowing left to right, the flag at 400 yards is almost still just showing a little tail wind and the flag at 1,000 yards is blowing right to left.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I have enjoyed watching You-Tube channels of F-class shooters...

I think watching the PRS style matches would be more relevant to hunting. I know our local matches started by people (usually hunters) who wanted to go out and play with their expensive new toys at long range and not just bang away at a fixed piece of paper. The initial idea for our matches was to simulate hunting scenarios and we made up all kinds of stages with improvised shooting positions with this in mind. This has evolved since then to be more of a game with more complicated and artificial conditions, but we used to always start each match with some type of "cold bore" stage meant to simulate the first and only shot you would take when hunting.

One of the main cheats of a PRS style match is that the ranges are known. Some matches like the Steel Safari are even closer to hunting conditions, where the shooter arrives at a stage and has a fixed amount of time to find, range, and take a single shot at each of a series of targets.

F-class shooting can be good for learning wind, but like others have commented, the conditions in the field can be much different. AnotherAZWriter shared the experience of shooting at range with everything the same between shots except the wind. I've seen similar problems with wind, particularly in the mountains. Just watching a light snow come down while focusing at different distances can be enlightening. I've also made consistent strings of hits at over 1000 yards in a howling wind, but we were out on the flat and the wind was very steady. It was amazing to watch the bullets fly way off to the side like a wild shot, then come back and smack the steel.