Damn, AZwriter I absolutely agree with everything you have said. I have seen quite a few folks hit a 12" gong at 800 yards once, and think they have proved something. They have proved NOTHING. The point of statistics is that it gives you (or you assume) a confidence factor. Only a fool would have confidence, after one shot, that his next would also hit the target. Demonstration, shoot a 5 shot group at 1000 yards and post the picture!
I would add that a 1/2 MOA gun at 200 yards establishes NOTHING about whether that gun (and load) will shoot 1/2 MOA at 600 yards, leave alone 800 or 1000 yards. I have never shot above 900 yards myself. I was happy with an 8" group at 850 yards but have little confidence that I could repeat it. Won't have this confisdence until I do!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Kanga69:
Peter

I really believe we are there. They shot the other day and were 100% at 1000yds for the day. That is relatively unheard of. We are having a demo shoot Tuesday the 16th and have about 9 guys (buyers) coming out. I will report when we are done. I would truly love someone from this forum to come shoot it. I know you are all scattered all over the nation, but there has to be one of you that is so intrigued they cant stand it!

When you say 100 percent at 1000 yards, what size target and what was the wind?

338zmag,
I understand what you are saying about the velocity of the bullet for first half of flight vs last half, but the velocity of the bullet and when it is exposed to the wind is as soon as it leaves the barrel;hence, impact on the bullet is at it's greatest at that moment. In short, flight of the bullet will be impacted upon exposure to the wind immediately and it's course is pretty well set if you will. No question that upon observing wind indicator, flag, mirage running like a river, tree limbs, etc. at the target area indicating strong winds from whatever direction, you could take that into consideration prior to taking the shot, but add that to whatever the wind is doing in the first half of the flight and my advise would be to hold up until calmer conditions prevail. I have no control for wind adjustment at end of 1000yds, but do have some at lesser ranges, say first half. As to the spread of the rounds at 1000yds, dispersion, was always taught to never attempt to make a wind adjustment of less than 1moa at that range. That's equivalent to some 10" at that range and a finer adjustment would not move point of impact to be significant at that range. Old formula for wind correction is simply take the Range x Velocity of wind and divide by 1000 for FULL VALUE wind, either 3 or 9 o'clock. Each clock face has a different value for dividing, but very difficult to determine just which clock face direction the wind is coming, so for that first shot, must take the shot situation, take approx. half of the answer for a compromise. If you have opportunity for second shot, or more in a match setting, correct off of impact feedback. Only takes few seconds to do the math and has worked for me for quite a few years.

I am not sure what the wind was the other day, I was not there. Just got a report. They are continuing to work on their ballistics and made great improvements in the last couple of weeks.

I got to do something really cool today. I shot with Pete Gould. I got to see what wind will really do to long range shooting. We shot out to a mile (never hit it, scared the hell out of it several times) and we had a 12mph wind with a .2 value. We consistently held 1 - 1.5mil for wind and the bullet would hit anywhere from within inches to 2mil left. I would have to agree that the further a bullet travels the greater impact of the wind, and at shorter distances, unless your in a hurricane, the wind will have no impact. I will let you boys who are smarter than I am debate that topic. We shot a Desert Tactical .300 win mag. Tons of fun! Within 1000 yards it was alot more predictable and a fairly high percentage of hits.

The math above on full value wind, 45 degrees, is .7, as explained by our instructor. I will readily admit I dont have a clue and dont know what I am talking about. This was my second time shooting at targets over 100 yards and I have the bug. Pete was amazing, extremely knowledgeable and a great teacher. I will be one of you.

A plug for Larue Tactical. We had their OBR out there in a 16" barrel. It is a .308 and it was extremely accurate out to 1000 yds. Very impressive for a gas gun, right out of the box.

quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:
I understand what you are saying about the velocity of the bullet for first half of flight vs last half, but the velocity of the bullet and when it is exposed to the wind is as soon as it leaves the barrel;hence, impact on the bullet is at it's greatest at that moment. In short, flight of the bullet will be impacted upon exposure to the wind immediately and it's course is pretty well set if you will.

This is where I disagree with you. I'll just leave it at that.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

This guy is totally wrong about wind at a 45 degree angle; he says it is half value. Actually, it is 7/10 value.

My simple rule of thumb: take the wind angle, add half back in, and round up to the nearest five. So a 45 degree angle is 45+22.5=67.5; round up to the nearest five brings it to 70.

The other issue I have is his description of a vital area and how/where to hold. He assumes that every bullet goes exactly where you aim. But in real life, half your bullets are going to hit to the left of your aiming point, half to the right. Some will hit way off your aiming point; it is simply the nature of expanding group sizes as range increases. At 1000 yards, if you can shoot 1/2 MOA, your group is already five inches. If you are trying to hit a target that is 10 inches in diameter, you only have 2.5 inches on either end of that group for wind error. That means your allowable wind error is less than 1/2 mph for most calibers. Of course, because half your bullets will hit left or right of where you aim, the bullets in the hypothetical group (5 inches) that are on the right side would give you more latitude for error (perhaps 2 mph total). Thus, if you can guess within 2 mph, you might have a 50% chance of hitting. Fire once, hit, and you think are a genius (for example, my 820 yard shot above that would have hit a cup saucer) but in reality you might only have gotten lucky.

The guy in the video makes a lot of statements and comments like good enough or close enough and shows various ways to estimate the wind and then a Ballistic program and a drop chart. I don't know why he went through some of that and didn't focus on a ballistic program from the start, which is what I use.

My point for the video was to point out that all of the distance matters and not only the first 1/3 or 1/2. Although not so much out to 300 yards, but matters significantly beyond that and obviously the farther out the more it matters.

It is important to get the angle of the wind right; IMO the hardest wind in the world is one that fishtails from behind (or in front) from 5 to 7 oclock. Most shooters would call this "no wind" but in reality it is a half value wind going from L-R and back to R-L. A 30 degree wind is a half value wind. Note how the rule of thumb I described earlier works perfectly: half of 30 is 15, added to 30 is 45, rounded up to te next five is 50.

You can say these are round off errors in the field; fine. All the more reason not to shoot at game animals at 1000 yards.

I have a good video. Is anyone willing to help me post it. I dont have the privilege since I am new.

Thanks in advance.

Allen
amckee@pjs.com

You tube link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...zlc&feature=youtu.be

Kanga, thanks for the link. Couple of questions:
1. I "tag" the target, point precisely at the target and jerk the trigger. What happens? Hit or miss?
2. I "tag" the elk at 1000 yards. While I am futzing around, the elk moves 3 feet off to the left. Not realising this I press the trigger. What happens. What does the "guided trigger" do?
Not trying to nail you down, just trying to figure out how the "guided technology" works.
Thanks, Peter.
PS. Added later. Let me explain my #2 question a bit better. I tag the elk, and then a few seconds later I see another one close by. I forget to tag it but just put the aiming point on it and press the trigger. What happens? Hit or miss?

TrackingPoint info (from the SHOT Show site):

Website - http://tracking-point.com/

SHOT Show booth #12451.

About Us:

TrackingPoint is the Austin-based applied technology company that created the first Precision Guided Firearm (PGF). This revolutionary new long-range shooting system puts jet fighter “lock and launch” technology in a rifle, enabling anyone to hit moving targets at extended ranges. The first systems will be available in the spring of 2013.

Media contact:

Bret Boyd
bboyd@tracking-point.com

Booth Representatives (5)
Bret Boyd
Dan Price
Darren Jones
Jason Schauble
John McHale

*************************

Note the, “...enabling anyone to hit MOVING targets at extended ranges...”. Really? Hope that isn't referrng to the "egg" shoot demo mentioned earlier in this thread.

BTW, their website is a one pager soliciting subscriptions to info updates - and the large date, 1-15-2013, the first floor date of the SHOT Show. One might have expected they would have been exhibiting/demoing on the "Media Day at the Range" event (the 14th) but, as of 10/14 noonish, they are NOT listed on the exhibitor listing for that event.

ELR it was the "lock and lauch" comment that gave rise to my questions above. Hopefully kanga will answer them soon.
Peter.

Okay, watched the video. It doesn't even mention wind - the reason any good shooter misses.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Kanga, thanks for the link. Couple of questions:
1. I "tag" the target, point precisely at the target and jerk the trigger. What happens? Hit or miss?
2. I "tag" the elk at 1000 yards. While I am futzing around, the elk moves 3 feet off to the left. Not realising this I press the trigger. What happens. What does the "guided trigger" do?
Not trying to nail you down, just trying to figure out how the "guided technology" works.
Thanks, Peter.
PS. Added later. Let me explain my #2 question a bit better. I tag the elk, and then a few seconds later I see another one close by. I forget to tag it but just put the aiming point on it and press the trigger. What happens? Hit or miss?

1. Hit. Thats exatly what I did when I shot it the first time. The crosshairs came back to the tag on the target and I pulled (harder) the trigger. It didnt and will not fire until the scope lets it.

2. Nothing. The trigger is not actually guided, as it is part of the integration of the system. The gun will not fire until the scope sees what it likes, hense the crosshairs turning red. It adjusts the ballistics 60 times a second. Imaging shooting that elk while he is walking. The scope calculates the bullet travel time to calculate where the sight needs to be so the bullet and the elk meet at the same place, at the same time..

PS. Nothing. The trigger will not pull until the aiming system is aligned with a tagged target. example - You tag an elk and then see another elk you would rather shoot. If you aim or point the gun far enough away from your original tag, it will cancel the tag, and you would simply tag the second elk. Maybe better stated. On a range. There is a horizontal line of targets and you tag the first one. If you change your minde and choose to shoot the next one over, put your cross hairs on the target and press the tag button. It will cancel the first tag and tag the second all at the same time. All of this, while sounding time consuming, takes seconds. It has image recogition software that will not let you shoot the wrong elk, provided you didnt tag the wrong elk.

There is really no "guiding" system. It is an aiming system. Imagine if you were the perfect shot and never pulled the trigger until your sights were perfectly aligned with your target, regardless of distance (out to 1200m), or speed (up to 15mph). This systm will not let you pull the trigger, until that is achieved. Just to note, you have to have pressure on the trigger. The gun does not shoot on its own.

You need to come shoot it.. It is fun! I hope this answers your questions and sorry for the delayed response, was out shooting some doves.

[QUOTE]
Note the, “...enabling anyone to hit MOVING targets at extended ranges...”. Really? Hope that isn't referrng to the "egg" shoot demo mentioned earlier in this thread.

Personally that is one of the most impressive shots with this system. Shooting a moving egg with a .300 win mag is fairly impressive. It will track a target up to 15mph at the limits of the system. 1000yds for the .300 and 1200yds for the Lapua.

Not at you directly, but I think I saw a question in a earlier posst about what do you do when the batteries die. The answer, the same thing you would do with your rangefinder it your shooting a conventional system - replace the batteries...