So Kanga, this is a rifle+ combination "system"? What exactly does one get? It can't be put on any rifle?
Peter

First Welcome to AR.
I'm always interested in new toys, and currently looking into a .338 EDGE. Shot's at a mile are pretty do-able with it.

I'm curious and will email you.

I'm hoping you'll contribute to the entertainment regularily with out plugging things all the time. Nate

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
So Kanga, this is a rifle+ combination "system"? What exactly does one get? It can't be put on any rifle?
Peter

Peter that is correct. They have three models described above.

You get -

Custom bolt action gun. I will get specs and post

Scope that is mounted and set up for the caliber you choose. .300 win or .338 Lapua.

300 rounds of ammo that is loaded by Barnes specific to your rifle.

They are custom building the entire system. They do not sell the gun or scope separate. I will find out if there is any intention to do that.

Thanks for the interest.

I have no dog in this fight, however,I do know where the system was tested and the amazing results that were produced. Frankly, the results push the realm of long range target acquisition/tracking and accuracy to a completely new level. As a casual observer I would suggest the technology used will revolutionize the military and law enforcement sniper's world. Is it practical for hunting game? I'd say it will add considerable fuel to the long range hunting/shooting ethics debate.

I just got off the phone with Barnes and they did confirm that they are making some loads for this system.

I believe Allen is in the process of getting some type of video to put on the forum. It is a very unique shooting system.

Allen also said that they are working on some type of rifle and suppressor combination, which is what I would want if I were to buy one.

I also want to state that I am not associated with the company and don't know anyone there. I also have never met Allen and only emailed and talked with him after he posted here. However after talking with him, I believe he is an honest person and not someone who is trying to scam anyone. The confirmation I got from Barnes helps confirm what he has stated.

The long range game has always been seen as a real test of skill due to mirage, wind, elevation of the target in relation to the shooter etc. etc. Not a "black art" but certianly something that separates the men from the boys. It will be interesting to see if pure technology can solve all those problems. And that list does not include the accuracy of the rifle!
Peter.

Peter

I really believe we are there. They shot the other day and were 100% at 1000yds for the day. That is relatively unheard of. We are having a demo shoot Tuesday the 16th and have about 9 guys (buyers) coming out. I will report when we are done. I would truly love someone from this forum to come shoot it. I know you are all scattered all over the nation, but there has to be one of you that is so intrigued they cant stand it!

So how do you figure out the wind over 1000 yards? How do you know it won't change in the time of flight out to 1000 yards?

Another AZWriter,
Truth of the matter you don't know what is going to happen after the bullet leaves the barrel. If some strong gusts/winds are so obvious at the end of the range/1000yds you would normally hold up if possible. Not seeing any obvious wind issues at the extended range best practice I have found is adjust for whatever wind for the first 1/3 or 1/2 of the distance at hand. Have always been told that the impact of the wind on the flight of the bullet is most felt/greatest the first portion of the flight not the final portion. Have shot Long Range, 600-1000yds. prone/sling/mat/irons Long Range for quite a few years and normally not concerned with the wind at the target face unless obvious as I mentioned. Practice I was taught was to "back focus" spotting scope to mid range and observe mirage and direction plus any other signs of wind at that distance. I believe the system earlier described is in use by our military and perhaps others as well, but not normally found with civilian shooters. Sounds like it would be a fun exercise, but not sure it would work from a prone/sling/mat set up?? Most likely need to be on secure/stable platform/bench/bipod, etc.??

Instructor:

Yes, I agree with everything you said. I shoot at 500 yards every Friday morning and between 400 and 820 on Tuesdays (went out last night and "guessed" the wind at 820 to be about 1 3/4 MOA and hit about 2 inches right of my 3 inch circle - and that was sitting with a sling and bipod).

But I also know the wind is gusty; hold any anemometer and you will see the wind blows plus or minus 1 mph constantly. And that is enough to miss at 1000 yards.

The long range game is played by hunters who are not penalized for wounding game. I know some outfits that now end your hunt when you wound an animal - because they are tired of guys thinking that they can kill stuff at 500 yards when they don't even have a place to practice at half that distance to say nothing of 1000 yards.

I don't know that the intended purpose for the system mentioned is for shooting of game, but if going to do so, and performs as it apparently does, it is a better way to go about it. Extreme long range shooting at game is not my preference but if it can be done with this device/firearm that is a good thing. Thought to keep in mind is that "wounding" is only advantageous in combat/war, not hunting game.

Very well stated Instructor.


Thanks to all for their opinions and input.

quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:
Not seeing any obvious wind issues at the extended range best practice I have found is adjust for whatever wind for the first 1/3 or 1/2 of the distance at hand. Have always been told that the impact of the wind on the flight of the bullet is most felt/greatest the first portion of the flight not the final portion.

If I am understanding your statement correctly, I would disagree. The bullet is going faster in the first part of the flight. Therefore the wind has less time to impact it, as opposed to the latter half when the bullet is slowing. A slower bullet has more time to be impacted by the wind, since it spends more time in the second half of the flight than the first half.

This guy explains it in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...WUy6Q&feature=relmfu

Here is another point:

You simply cannot hold an anemometer into the wind and think it is good enough. For one thing, wind increases in speed the farther you are above ground. So if you are shooting across a canyon, I guarantee the wind will be stronger over the canyon than at your site. As instructor points out, if you can read the mirage, that will give you a composite picture of the wind (assuming there is mirage to read), but it certainly doesn't give you a number to plug into a computer.

There are composite anemometers that use lasers to give a total measure of wind. Unfortunately they are large and expensive. They are most commonly used on wind turbines, but Larry Ellison bought one for his sailboat.

quote:

Originally posted by 338zmag:

quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:
Not seeing any obvious wind issues at the extended range best practice I have found is adjust for whatever wind for the first 1/3 or 1/2 of the distance at hand. Have always been told that the impact of the wind on the flight of the bullet is most felt/greatest the first portion of the flight not the final portion.

If I am understanding your statement correctly, I would disagree. The bullet is going faster in the first part of the flight. Therefore the wind has less time to impact it, as opposed to the latter half when the bullet is slowing. A slower bullet has more time to be impacted by the wind, since it spends more time in the second half of the flight than the first half.

This guy explains it in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...WUy6Q&feature=relmfu

This guy is totally wrong about wind at a 45 degree angle; he says it is half value. Actually, it is 7/10 value.

My simple rule of thumb: take the wind angle, add half back in, and round up to the next five. So a 45 degree angle is 45+22.5=67.5; round up to the next five brings it to 70.

The other issue I have is his description of a vital area and how/where to hold. He assumes that every bullet goes exactly where you aim. But in real life, half your bullets are going to hit to the left of your aiming point, half to the right. Some will hit way off your aiming point; it is simply the nature of expanding group sizes as range increases. At 1000 yards, if you can shoot 1/2 MOA, your group is already five inches. If you are trying to hit a target that is 10 inches in diameter, you only have 2.5 inches on either end of that group for wind error. That means your allowable wind error is less than 1/2 mph for most calibers. Of course, because half your bullets will hit left or right of where you aim, the bullets in the hypothetical group (5 inches) that are on the right side would give you more latitude for error (perhaps 2 mph total). Thus, if you can guess within 2 mph, you might have a 50% chance of hitting. Fire once, hit, and you think are a genius (for example, my 820 yard shot above that would have hit a cup saucer) but in reality you might only have gotten lucky.