per corecpa




These are from my hunt in MZB from June 2005. I used a Marlin Guide Gun with Garrett super hard cast 540 grainers going a mere 1550 fps. We waited on a bank for over five hours before I got the shot on the Buf. He was an honest 100 yards away when I fired. The bullet hit him too far forward on the shoulder, but he was unable to use his left front leg afterwards. We walked up behind him to finish his off. One shot to his spine put him down for good along with two more heart shots while he was on the ground. Those things are tough. He was the second biggest buffalo in the herd of 44. I could never get a shot at my first choice and the herd was starting to move off so I took him. He is a little over 43"s.
The hippo cow I took at about 40 yards with a brain shot, but a 30-06 could have killed her just as well.
I left this rifle with the Limpopo Valley Horse Safaris guides in Botswana. It is carried in a scabbard while out riding and is loaded with the Garrett 500 grain solids. They have lots of elephants in the Tuli and although it wouldn't be my first choice for an elephant gun, it is much more compact on horseback than the CZ 458 Win Mags they use to carry. The goal there isn't necessarily to kill an elephant, but just make it go away.
I bought this Marlin second hand over the internet for $ 400 including delivery. It already had the WWG extended mag tube and glove sized lever.
That was a smokin hot deal and I believe there is nothing wrong with using a Marlin for Buffalo. If he is wounded I wouldn't hesitate to go after with the 45-70, although I would be happy to let my PH lead the way with a 416 Rigby or bigger. They have to do something to earn the big bucks!

This must be a lie, because as it has been pointed out so many times, it is illegal. You must be a member of the Garrett fantacy club!!

what's illegal? .458 bullets are well over the minimum .375 caliber for dangerous game, and in a 45-70 are lethal. They have no minimum ME or cartridge size over there, just .375" and up for bullet diameter. Read up on this a little before you post on things you appear to know nothing about.

Oh, yeah, the word is f-a-n-t-a-S-y, not "C".

So, you have eight posts, and you are calling this guy a LIAR! Could you post us a list of your safaris to Africa, rifles used, and the game taken with each? Uhh, and lots of pictures of you and the game, and the rifle. I'm just curious...
This guy was pretty specific about all the details, and the buff and hippo in the pictures do look pretty dead, and that does look like a Marlin in the pictures...

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Congratulations,i use garrets and a marlin guide gun almost daily on water buffalos.Juan

ISS,

Don't get your panties in a bunch, I was only kidding. I thought the little guy at the bottom of my post would give that impression, but I guess not. Good for Broom Stick he did a great job. I am an avid lever gunner and shoot the .45-70 so back off.

A new guy on the Afircan Hunting Forum asked about a .45-70 for dangerous game and they damn near crucified him. It was they who told the poster that the .45-70 was illegal and did not meet the power requirments. I was just stiring the pot.

I think that Broom Stick should post this over on the African Hunting Forum. See what kind of reaction he gets.

As far as me being a new guy, yes I am. If you don't like my posts or my spelling then Tough Sh$#! The way people are treated on this forum I won't be around long. I guess I'm not "One of YOU"

Jim Z.

I am the one in the photos. Boomstick posted them for me as I am technically challenged. I saw your post and thought you were probably just kidding, but I wasn't sure so I can understand and appreciate Idaho Sharpshooter's response.
The first time I did a post here about my leopard hunt (I ended up shooting a female) I was crucified and called a troll and many other unflattering names. AR is a great place to get a lot of very useful information, but it is also populated by some of the most pompous phony blow hards you will ever meet.
Just remember that and don't let them chase you away.
I don't understand why some people have such a huge dislike of the 45-70 on Cape Buffalo. With the right ammo and good shot placement they will work just like Boomstick says, "Guide gun + Garret Ammo + Cape Buffalo = Death.

Cheers and good luck,

Mike Core



You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go now.

Jim Z...

Idaho Sharpshooter is a great guy and an avid 45-70 proponent...I guess he did not get the humor of yer post...

Corecpa...isnt the levergun a perfect gun for leopard... cats are fast so getting off heavy lead in a hurry is what it is about.

45-70 people ge a bad rap so i started the *we band of 45-70ers* to help level out the playing field... double rifle and lever people tend to not get along.

Just add the *we band of 45-70ers* to yer sig line on yer profile and corecpa...add a photo of you and the buff to the sig line...ask me if you need help.

Thanks Guys. There are too many misunderstandings using the internet. And you are correct there are a great deal of pompous phony blow hards on these forums. I do not want too be considered a troll. I am and avid hunter, shooter and fisherman.

I APPOLOGIZE IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE.

I will add, "we band of 45-70ers" to my tag line

GREAT PICS!! I'm headed to RSA for a plains game hunt in July 08. I'm taking my .45-70GG and handloaded 300 gr. nosler partitions to about 2000 fps.

You are right about one thing. You can get a lot of great information here, but there are a lot of pompous a**es here that are very full of themselves!

Mad Dog

corecpa, who did you hunt with in mozambique?

Mad Dog

It was Safaris de Mocambique which at that time was owned by Piet Hougard. It has since been purchased by Simon Roger. I was there in June 2005 and booked it through Wendell Reich. At that time there was a ten day buffalo special which include all fees and the trophy fee for the Buf for $8875. You did need a air charter for $ 1500. Crocs were $ 1500 and hippo cows only $ 750 with baboons for $ 50. That had some big crocs there. They are located just across the border from Zimbabwe near Lake Coharra Bass. It was a great place with fishing and birdshooting available at no additional charge. I am afraid those prices are from the good old days and the same trip now would cost significantly more now. I blame it on the popularity of safari hunting and the very weak dollar.


You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go now.

Me Too!

The issue isn't the 45-70 cartridge and current power levels at all, it's that it is chambered in a stinking lever action $600 rifle...not a $20,000+ double rifle that took three years to build. All of the 450NE spinoffs featured a 475-500gr bullet at 2000fps or so. It's something about the more $$$ you spend on a rifle the larger a set of silicone boobies your trophy girlfriend can have, or something like that...think of it as a Viagra substitute.

See, here's our basic Type-A Alpha Male and he goes to Africa and does the whole schmear with a rather spendy DR. Then, here comes somebody with a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 and has the same quality experience, and not only that, compounds it by using a 45-70...it really cheapens the whole thing for the Type-A guy. It's why a bull with 1" bigger spread means diddly.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...
We Band of 45-70-ers.

ISS,

I totally agree. I love lever guns, and I have two big bores. A Marlin GS in .45-70 and a MXLR in .450 Marlin. that will do the job anywhere on the planet with the right loads, and good shot placement.

It's the shooter that counts not the gun! The gun is just a tool, no matter how much you pay for it.

I know that there are a lot of Cabela's cowboys out there. (I like Cabelas by the way.), who just have all the lastest expensive gear, along with the most expensive custom rifle.

It just tickles me that corecpa did so well in Africa with his Guide Gun.

We need a link to "the"campfire on this. Nicely done sir!

wow, this topic completely mesmerizes me. a .44 magnum has been used on several occasions with very reliable results on cape buff, albeit at a limited range. according to ME "experts" a .44 mag doesn't have adequate ft/lbs at the muzzle for elk or moose and it continues to lay them flat out to 100 yards every year around the country. the "experts" don't know much sometimes. a .454 casull has been used quite regularly and reliably on everything up to elephants and is just fine as long as you use the right bullets. now if these two are considered marginal, and i can see how some would think so, that's fine, but a 45/70, hardly. the line thinking of many here is consistent with the lott not being ideal b/c there is a .460 wby out there and the .458 wm isn't ideal b/c there's a lott and so on, it's just silly and it's been well established that a garrett hammerhead, a grizzly punch bullet, and some other loads will compeletely pass through an elephant and will go stem to stern through a buffalo, how much more do you need? good lord, take advantage of the handling of a guide gun. i'd take mine in a tight spot over my 460 that's for sure, not for 200 yard shots on an elephant but in tight, i'm gonna use the guide gun and the energy levels are just arbitrary and largely ridiculous and not based on any fact or real reasoning.


one thing the 45/70 bashers don't have, and i don't care who you are, you don't have any examples of a garrett hammerhead or punch bullet failing. what's this "less than ideal situation". is stem to stern not less than ideal enough, and btw, you aren't gonna shock a buff or elephant down with any gun, it's wound channel and blood loss, end of story.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
wow, this topic completely mesmerizes me. a .44 magnum has been used on several occasions with very reliable results on cape buff, albeit at a limited range. according to ME "experts" a .44 mag doesn't have adequate ft/lbs at the muzzle for elk or moose and it continues to lay them flat out to 100 yards every year around the country. the "experts" don't know much sometimes. a .454 casull has been used quite regularly and reliably on everything up to elephants and is just fine as long as you use the right bullets. now if these two are considered marginal, and i can see how some would think so, that's fine, but a 45/70, hardly. the line thinking of many here is consistent with the lott not being ideal b/c there is a .460 wby out there and the .458 wm isn't ideal b/c there's a lott and so on, it's just silly and it's been well established that a garrett hammerhead, a grizzly punch bullet, and some other loads will compeletely pass through an elephant and will go stem to stern through a buffalo, how much more do you need? good lord, take advantage of the handling of a guide gun. i'd take mine in a tight spot over my 460 that's for sure, not for 200 yard shots on an elephant but in tight, i'm gonna use the guide gun and the energy levels are just arbitrary and largely ridiculous and not based on any fact or real reasoning.


one thing the 45/70 bashers don't have, and i don't care who you are, you don't have any examples of a garrett hammerhead or punch bullet failing. what's this "less than ideal situation". is stem to stern not less than ideal enough, and btw, you aren't gonna shock a buff or elephant down with any gun, it's wound channel and blood loss, end of story.

Why not post this expert opinion (and first post!) over on the African forum?


corecpa-- Congratulations on two very nice trophies. I hunted that same area in 2004 with Mark Harper as my PH, and got ele, buff, croc, and plains game, but with a 458 Win mauser--great area, great deal. Hougaard was trying to sell at that time. Did you get to hear his tale about his near run-in with Adelino Pires?

I was impressed with the way Juan Pozzi's 45/70 actually staggered the water-buffalo in the above picture, after two 375H&H's from my double had penetrated it thru the chest. The red spot beneath Juan's forearm is an exit wound from a final 375 shot to the sternum as the bull was down.
I wouldn't recommend 45/70 for big bull elephant (or angry cows), or for cape buff in the tall grass,(and in some of the African countries there IS a ME requirement for buff & ele that would not allow the 45/70)-- but maybe that's just me---

The silicone-titties one is on the right

i love the way the number of posts at a given website is an indicator of being an "expert". it seems then, that whomever sits behind the keyboard most is the "expert"? and no i don't waste my time arguing with knowitalls that go nuts over on the african forum whenever someone thinks something less than a .505 gibbs is absolutely needed. i've been reading posts here for several years now and enjoying the vids and procuring firearms and using them at a rapid pace the last couple years and now love to discuss some "truths" about firearms. especially the part where a .375 HH round with a ME of 4163 is OK for buff, but a larger bore solid punch bullet out of a 45/70 at nearly 3800ft/lbs and proven to penetrate better is laughed at! seems a tad silly imho.

Tradmark, so you had a previous identity on this site?


PS, the load described above--540 gr at 1550 fps--is 2881FPE.

Good on you, amigo. I am a fan of his ammo as well.

no i said i've been reading posts for a while, never felt like posting.

Go for it "tradmark"! How many of te people posting here have ever have to shoo at anything that bites back?

well, there sure are two that used it with success with pics right on here now, there's many others and a couple hundred thousand bison in this country were killed at extreme ranges with inferior loads and inferior bullets. if it penetrates through the buff, it kills it. simple as that. want to stop a charge, hit the cns. not gonna stop it with a .600 nitro to the chest.


how do we know the .458 is a suitable caliber and don't think you need a lott?
cuz the .458 works.

how do we know the .375HH works?
cuz it works.

why do i think the .45/70 works on buff and elephant?
cuz it works.

if it doesn't please post the proof, the proof has been posted that it does, where's the garrett and punch bullet failures?

Way to go, tradmark! I'm all for what you are saying!



Vasa

This has probably come up before, but has anyone experimented with a tungsten-core jacketed bullet that would get the weight to 500 grains or more and yet leave room for more propellant at similar pressures in the .45-70? It would seem that even the Marlin might be safely gotten to 1700 with a 500-grain bullet this way. What do the Garrett 550s do in a 24-inch barrel?

JimZ:
Welcome from a fellow Oregonian (down near the -- yecchh -- California border).

i forget what the garrett tungsten cored bullets velocities are, but they penetrate anything. i know talking to randy garrett a few years back in the beginning when you could call, he made a mention that the hammerheads and later the soon to be tungsten penetrators or whatever they're called were not loaded to max velocities, but loaded to absolute safe pressures AND the velocities where max penetration happened.

anyone else seem to notice that garrett, buffalo bore, and grizzly cartridges deepest penetrating cartridges aren't the ones with the highest ME? it's because with hardcast bullets ME is only one of the factors in penetration and seemingly not as important as bullet design, or better said........bullet design matched with whatever velocity matches up for that given bullet design to perform best.



i remember a couple years ago i was very skeptical about what many of the handgunners were saying, like bowen, bob baker, and linebaugh, when they stated that big heavy bullets of a flat nosed hard cast design often times has less penetration at increased velocities. i didn't dismiss this as it seemed to fit with what many writers had said about the ole' 458wm vs. the 460 wby issue. so one day i found an article done in a handgun mag about .44 mag bullets, it compared the garrett heavyweights with buffalo bores heavy offering and then the belt mountain punch bullets. seems that the hardcasts either gained about an inch of penetration when shot out of a rifle at a couple hundred fps more and in one instance actually penetrated less. seems the bullet was getting upset at the higher velocity. mirrors the point about the wby cartridges in the 60's and 70's. the punch bullet gained over a foot of penetration as it could "handle" the increased velocity better.

anyone else remember hearing about some erratic .458 performance from those writing about african hunting in the 60's, i do. however, it has been shown to be more a function of the round nose solid design than it's inability to gain the required velocity. load a .458 with a punch bullet and it has absolutely no problem with penetration on anything, even at well sub 2000fps velocities. say this about a 458 and you get nods in agreement, say it about a 45/70 and all the rich guys with doubles like to start riots. it's really all quite juvenile to be honest.


btw, a .460 wby with a belt mountain punch bullet or a barnes flat nosed solid will penetrate through a herd of elephants, waaaaaaaaaay overkill for just ONE animal and just because it is doesn't mean a 458wm is somehow not adequate, and neither is a 45/70.



now for something more interesting and a project i'm putting together, a high pressure 450 marlin, out of a blr that can handle significantly more pressure than a marlin or winchester. now that will work i think!

one last point.......for now. i talked to peter pi at corbon and there's been more than one documented instance on their 45/70 penetrator round killing two cape buff with one shot, seems to not have much of a penetration issue.

We will have to stop this penetration debate or all the buff in the world will be extinct due to lengthwise penetration tests of the 45-70.

Bullet design is huge...flat nose non deforming bullets rock when it comes to penetration.

Its not that 45-70's are magic but bulet design and functional impact velocities are important.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
We will have to stop this penetration debate or all the buff in the world will be extinct due to lengthwise penetration tests of the 45-70.

Bullet design is huge...flat nose non deforming bullets rock when it comes to penetration.

Its not that 45-70's are magic but bulet design and functional impact velocities are important.

Yup. Humans have survived complete brain penetration by arrows, screw-drivers, etc. with little effect. Game animals sometimes go for hours after complete penetration of the chest by slow velocity bullets, where the same projectile at high velocity would drop them in their tracks. The cartridges in use by people whose lives may depend on stopping an elephant NOW are those that can be effective in stunning the CNS with a "near miss" type head shot. That means big and fast, and its why none of those people can be found who prefer the 45/70. Can the 45/70 work on elephant?--yes. Does any PH or animal-control officer use it for elephant or cape-buffalo?
Not that I've ever heard, read , or seen; but please inform me if such exists.

and were off!

actually in several instances the guides wanted the marlin to stay with them, and nice anecdote on the ice pick to the brain, but a wound channel is more a design of bullet design than velocity. then again, if that's the case my friend, then why doesn't the .460 weatherby drop em quicker than the lott? or does it? or is it really a matter of the bullet being used.

i do realize i'm fighting against 100 years of opinion gained in an age of inferior bullet construction and poor logic. hence the even existence of a 2 bore. hence the feeling the 458 wm was not adequate. they just had to turn the bullet around. too bad only a few figured it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
GREAT PICS!! I'm headed to RSA for a plains game hunt in July 08. I'm taking my .45-70GG and handloaded 300 gr. nosler partitions to about 2000 fps. Mad Dog

Mad Dog. I am a Garrett fan as well. That said, for less than the big African critters, and if you are interested my favorite load is:

Nosler 300 grain partition
54 grains H4198; Fed 210; 2150 fps

I know this goes on forever,

but I do not think anyone is saying that there are not better calibers and bullets. And yes if my life depended on stopping an enragged dangerous animal I would want a howitzer, or a TOW missle, or .600NE with a 900gr bullet.

But the .45-70 is a viable cartidge with the right load and bullet. It can be used for dangerous game and is being used for the said purpose. I do not understand what all the BS is about, But then again I'm just a lowly new member, that has been hunting for 40 years.

PEACE OUT!



.

First off: Congrats to corecpa; nice work!

I love these discussions...even used to get involved in them on occasion. FWIW, here's my spin on the embattled lever gun/.45-70 topic. Heck, I don't even have to write anything new as my old opinion still stands.

(from 2/21/05)

"Good afternoon all!

The lever gun question seems to surface every so often (particularly in reference to dangerous game), with similar feedback each time from two separate camps…

One camp hasn’t done it yet but thinks it’d be the new death-ray; the other camp hasn’t done it either but prophesies a slow painful death for any that attempt it.

I have done it once (in ’02; a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in…gasp!….45-70) so I feel that I can speak with some small measure of authority. I make no claims to be an expert, either expressed or implied…I’ll merely relate my own experience.

I carried that saddlegun over to Zim for one reason and one reason only; to hunt leopard with hounds. That type of hunt may present shots from 100 yards to tag-you’re-it distance on a fast moving spottie. A shotgun might get the nod up real close, but becomes useless as the range opens up. Conversely, your pet scoped rifle is a winner way out there, but dicey up close. I decided that a big levergun with a ghost ring heaving a big soft slug at moderate velocity would cover both scenarios and provide faster follow-up shots than any bolt gun I own.

I guess I “got away with it†because that spottie is on my wall. Sorry, no tales of him charging me after being wounded, nor shooting clear through the beast to slay a couple of lined-up buffalo on the far side either. Would’ve taken a warthog with it during the trip if circumstances had allowed, but the bride’s .270 was a better answer when an ungulube volunteered.

For this particular application the lever gun is (by my lights) the right tool for the job. For plains game, a bolt gun in the calibers you mention is a far better proposition. For the heavy stuff, well…that answer begins with the .375 and goes up from there. BTW, didn't Cottar cash in when a rhino took him to task for his choice of the Win 95/.405 combo? Hmmm, very instructive...

FWIW, "my" Marlin now belongs to a fellow Cowboy Action shooter, its job is done on the Dark Continent as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, them’s the cards I’m holding…good hunting to each of you!

Mark"

Flashback over; back to real time. As an aside (and before the '02 trip mentioned above) I had Jim Brockman build one of his super-modified Marlin .45-70s as a gift for my friend and Zim PH Mark Butcher of Matupula Hunters. This is his "go to" rig for chasing spotties w/ hounds. Funny though, despite my providing him with my own early version of the now-fashionable "blind, burn and deafen" .45-70 loads, Butch still reaches for his blue-worn M70 .458 when spotties aren't on the menu.

Professionals. Hmmmph, go figure...

That's just my studied opinion; your mileage may vary. An again, sincere congrats to corecpa for his pair of handsome beasts.

This concludes my broadcast day...

Mark

JimZ

Great Trophy's you have there. I once posted on (I believe this site)here about T/C discontinuing some of the Contender barrels and was told I was a troll and all other kind of choice words. Al I was doing was passing along info from another site and turned out to be true. Do the locals eat the Hippo, and did you try any? Anyway welcome to the Forum.


Steve E......

Steve E......

Hi Steve,

These are not my trophy's. They belong to Corecpa. I just was stiring the pot, after being told numerous times that the .45-70 couldn't possible be viable in africa, on the DG.

Cheers
Jim

per corecpa

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Hello Steve E.

One of the high points of this trip was watching the locals tear
into
the hippo carcass after we took the head, one foot and some choice meat
for
our game scout. Hippo meat is quite fatty and is a much sought after
by the
locals. I can assure you that nothing was wasted. Unfortunately, not
everyone in the nearby village got meat. Two men from this same
village
walked two days to the game scout office to complain of a "problem
elephant". I was offered the opportunity to hunt it, but I was leaving
the
next day so was unable to do so. I suspect the problem was that not
everyone got meat from the hippo and knowing there was a foreign hunter
in
the area provided a pretext for the alleged PAC elephant. PAC
elephants
will sometimes suspiciously appear the same time a hunter shows up.

Cheers,

Mike Core

Hey Boom Stick, A couple of months ago I began receiving FREE copies of Guns & Ammo that say "Compliments of Natchez Shooters Supply. Had no idea I was spending that kind of money with them, but the magazine is showing up.

In the January 2008 edition there is an article by Sam Fadala about the 45-70 Lead Broad Meplat Bullets from a couple of suppliers.

Lots of discussion about Momentum. I found it particularly interesting that he would choose to use a 458WinMag with a Round Nose Bullet in his Bullet Test Box and then make a comparison to the BMBs(obviously not comparing similar style Bullets). He mentioned the 458WinMag showed "an impressive penetration channel", but the BMBs managed to blow the sides out of the box.

There is also mention of the BMBs being held to specific velocities to (in my words) lessen their deformation.

As I read the article, I wondered "Why?" Mr. Fadala had not used a Wide Meplat Jacketed Bullet in the 458WinMag instead of the RN. Do you believe that would have shifted the results back in favor of the 458WinMag, or remain the same?

yes we had a nice thread about it on big bores till threats of violence and the thread got locked...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
yes we had a nice thread about it on big bores till threats of violence and the thread got locked...

I didn't see the thread since I rarely go to that Board.

"Threats of violence", over the net seem to be made by those that are incapable of violence in person.
-----

Anyway, you side-stepped my question. Do you think his Bullet Box would have survived a Wide Meplat Jacketed Bullet at normal 458WinMag velocities?

I've no horse in the race. Biggest I've got right now is a 444Mar and I've no desire to Hunt Africa. Too many Deer Hogs and Bears need Killing over here.