I have the following hunts on special:

10 Day PAC hunts. Problem Animal Control

Daily Rate us$700.00 per day 1x1

Lion Us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Elephant us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Buffalo Us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Hippo us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Croc us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted

Trophy Hunting:

1 x Cites Elephant us$ 25 000.00
2 x Cites Leopard us$ 11 000.00
1 x Lion us$ 20 000.00

Plainsgame available

www.whitebuffalosafaris.com

You're missing some information! What concession, what company, what ph, free ranging wild animal, the country?

Brett

-8White Buffalo Safaris
-Pemba Mozambique
-Maputo Mozambique
-PH/Outfitter Willie van Deventer
-Free Ranging Animals/No Fences
-Not confined to Consession in Mozambique on PAC animals
-web url was supplied with pictures and info

Dates?

I am leaving in the morning to hunt for 3 weeks with the van Deventers and WBS in Cabo Delgado Province, Mozambique.
I will have tags for lion, ele, buff, hippo, and croc. The lions and ele's have been causing huge problems in the area , as a Google search including the province or Quirimbas National Park will show. Hope to be posting a good hunt report on African Hunting Reports forum in 4 weeks.
Jaco and his father Willem are just getting started in this new WBS enterprise, although Willem has many years experience in PH'ing and in Game management.

Gerrie duPreez, of HuntinAfrica, their booking agent, is an ex-PH who will be along to video the hunt. Hope he ends up with some exciting video!!

Any date from 1 September to 30 November. Please note that it takes up to 6 weeks to import rifles. Can do 2 Safaris at a time. 2 Professional Hunters.

Good hunting Steve. Look forward to your report - they are always interesting.

Guys,
please take note of the following email from Toni Wickes of Nyati safaris in Mozambique. If anybody wants a copy of the laws and ordinances he refers to, please PM me and i will forward them. Ganyana knows Toni well, and any enquiries can be directed to him as well.
This was in response to a bunch of PAC hunts advertised in a hunting publication.

"There is only one law regarding fauna / flora in Mozambique regulating all wildlife inside and outside of parks and reserves. I attach a copy in English for your information!
PAC Animals can not be hunted by foreigners except if he would hold a MZ PH license. PAC animals can not be sold as hunts!
To hunt any animal legally in Mozambique you must be in posession of a valid hunting license, the paid up-front animal tag, and the allocated quota for the area you hunting in.
The foreign Hunter has to be accompanied by a Mozambique licensed professional hunter.
The current tag for an elephant is 120 000.00 metical about 5000.00$ US

There is a quota of 40 (now 80 since this email was posted in March 08)elephants allocated for the whole of Mozambique! No PAC quotas are given to operators each case is decided individually and handled by the authorized personnel of fauna and flora or the army / police.
There is no private ownership of game belonging to a game reserve / game farm, all wildlife belongs to the state only once you buy the tag the animal becomes yours! Tags are not transferable from one year to the next.

Follow this link for the information regarding PAC animals and the 2009 hunting quotas.

http://picasaweb.google.com/mo...?authkey=TKgxeyA41wk

The problem with this type of hunts is that the client could end up in jail or he has to bribe its way out. The other point is that USFW will not permit importation of elephant from Mozambique and cites will not increase our legal quota as long this things going on so the impact is serious for all operators in Mozambique."

So please be careful.

I had a previous encounter with Mr Wickes. He contacted my agent while I was there. I made it very clear to him that my operation is legal. I am in posession of licenses for every animal that I hunt. I do have a license (cites) for every Elephant that I hunt. If I sell it as cites or non cites it is nobodies bussiness.

The website you are refering to needs to update their paperwork. According to my quota on the website I don't have any Elephant Quota. We were issued Cites Elephant quota in the meantime. The year 2009 means nothing, we update on a weekly basis. What other outfitters don't shoot I take. Your connection must upgrade his posts on a weekly basis.

Yes PAC is illegal if you don't follow the right channels. I took Trophy Hunting and named it PAC. That is no crime and it is not illegal in Mozambique. If a client do not shoot out his animals I sell it at a bargain price. In the case of Elephant, tusks can not be exported to the US.The client shoot it as non trophy. I am in possesion of the cites License which makes me the legal owner of the tusks. I did not rob anybody. I recovered my costs as I do not charge anybody license fees. I pay it out of my pocket.

The Elephant that we take out then will be a problem Animal. We will talk to the administrador, provincial director and the community. They will point us to a problem Elephant. This is then not a trophy hunt. We will show the client what Elephant to shoot. This is totally legal.



Now again.....I gave you my information. Prove me wrong.

WBS

quote:

Now again.....I gave you my information. Prove me wrong.

I am glad to be of service:

From your website and your agents website the following!

Klipspringer offered on your website!

Klipspringer is a protected species in Mozambique and not hunt able “ ANEXO II artigo 43 do Regulamento da Lei No: 10/99

Member of MOPHA (Mozambique professional hunters association)???

MOPHA does not exist in Mozambique it is called AMOS and is the Mozambique safari operators association. And no, not you nor WBS is a Member! You inventing things as needed?

Hunting offer ends 31th December 2009!

Hunting season closes on the 30th November in all of Mozambique!

Four (imaginary?) hunting areas two in Cabo Delgado, one in Inhambane and one Maputo Province?

Indicate the Areas please, and what Quota? For instance Inhambane province has no licensed Hunting operation at all! All licensed hunting operation a on the quota list! So which ones are yours?

The year 2009 means nothing, we update on a weekly basis.

Weekly updates your own self-made ones, not in your live from any government. all that happens this year we got this year 60 elephants instead of 40 from cites after the 2009 National hunting quotas were published in the Media:

What other outfitters don't shoot I take. Your connection must upgrade his posts on a weekly basis.

Bull shit! Tags and Quota are not transferable between areas never mind between provinces!


I am in posession of licenses for every animal that I hunt.

Are your SURE licenses? Or do you mean animal Tags? Do you know how they look? I mean legal ones?

Do you have a 2009 Mozambican PH License issued by DNAC Maputo?

Do you get legal hunting licenses for your clients are these type A, B, C, or E licenses? I don’t think you know the difference.

I do have a license (cites) for every Elephant that I hunt.

Funny, cites permits are only made out on export application after the hunt from DNFFB in Maputo never before the hunt! And hunting licenses are made out in the hunters/ clients name and so are the permits.

If I sell it as cites or non cites it is nobodies bussiness.

You wrong, if you sell hunts and don’t have the quota allocated you misleading your clients!

Yes PAC is illegal if you don't follow the right channels. [/QUOTE]

It is Illegal it does not make any different if you follow the “channels” or the money!


According to my quota on the website I don't have any Elephant Quota.

Never mind the elephant quota I could not even find “your” areas listed? Perhaps you could point them out if you can remember?

I took Trophy Hunting and named it PAC.

So you telling us you do trophy hunts and only call them PAC hunts so you can sell them cheaper??

That is no crime and it is not illegal in Mozambique.

It is still illegal to sell PAC hunts in Mozambique.

If a client do not shoot out his animals I sell it at a bargain price.

How do you sell an elephant for 1750$ refundable plus 10 days at 700$ if the government animal tag cost 5000$ that means you make a cross profit of 3750$ on the hunt or 375$ per hunting day. And from this 375$ you maintain and develop four hunting areas? I take my hat off; you could make a killing as consultant!

In the case of Elephant, tusks can not be exported to the US.The client shoot it as non trophy.

The animal tag is still the same price and it still counts against the allocated quota for the area so what is the point of hunting a non trophy elephant! and tusk can be legally exported as personal hunting trophies to other country’s.


I am in possesion of the cites License which makes me the legal owner of the tusks.

You are mistaken I suggest you read up the cites regulation and the Mozambican law regarding export of hunting trophies and ownership of trophy’s!

I did not rob anybody. I recovered my costs as I do not charge anybody license fees. I pay it out of my pocket.

Make no sense, but that explains a lot.

The Elephant that we take out then will be a problem Animal.

Always handy to produce problem elephant on demand!

We will talk to the administrador, provincial director and the community.

Talk about the meat for the communities and discuss how the money gets split?

They will point us to a problem Elephant.

I would say you are the problem and not any elephant!

This is then not a trophy hunt.

Agree, that is not a trophy hunt but a illegal hunt!

Keep on digging!

boy o boy freischeutz just gave everybody a law lesson from Moz. Seems you've got to be careful who you book with. I know a guy who spent time in a moz jail due to a road accident (accused of hitting a pedestrian) and he doesn't want to go back!!!

Just got back from Moz 20 day hunt.

While there, we had a (requested by WBS)visit from the Provincial Administrator, the Assistant MEC of Agriculture, the village chief, and an entourage of 9 others, including one guard with an AK47 (all packed in one pick-up-truck).
Jaco's dad's PH license, my hunting license(with attached photo and serial numbers of rifles), species list, and other documents were inspected and found to be in order. PAC elephants were discussed (Administration speaks in Portuguese, villagers speak mainly Swahili, PH speaks Swhali, Africaans, and English, client speaks English and a little Spaniish).
The elephant license cost a non-refundable $500.
PAC animals could be shot under the direction of the PH under certain circumstances (within a close distance of a village that was experiencing problem animals and which the chief requested, or an identified problem animal). The permissable rules are a little broader for PAC animals, if I understand correctly.
IMO, the van Deventers are attempting to follow the appropriate regulations. Problems can obviously arise when different Gov't Depts' Administrators or the Army, if present, believe that it is they who can decide what the hunting rules are in the areas they think they control.

Even the species list in Moz is a jumble---they attempt to list the Portuguese, Latin, and Africaans names for each animal, whilst mixing Facocero-warthog-vladvark with porco bravo-bushpig-bosvark.

I would not be surprised if some Dept's print one quota list for the Greenie-Orgs and a different one for the hunter's.

The best fail-safe "GET-OUT-OF-JAIL" plan should be arranged before such an eventuality occurs. As others have shown, the laws in Moz can, at least temporarily, be whatever the guy with the most votes or the most guns says it is.

My understanding is that one Dept controls hunting in the coutadas and hunting zones, another dept controls areas outside these, and that different rules apply to the 49-year-lease areas. There may be more areas of which I am unaware. My gut feeling is that a Portuguese-reading Lawyer might have a stroke trying to determine which laws are valid, and which aren't.

I would be happier to take PM's on this topic rather than to try to make a public argument out of it.

Although I agree with you that most disagreements should be handled privately I dont agree here. This time I think it would be very educational and beneficial for us to see all the various issues from different views. I dont think many of us really know much about the workings of Moz these days.

So is this a legitimate offer or not?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
So is this a legitimate offer or not?

And there you have it. With all that's been posted above by the

several sources, 505 gibbs, me, and I am guessing a number of

others are asking, "SO IS THIS A LEGITIMATE OFFER OR NOT?".

I agree with Toni, wholeheartedly in this instance,

as I have had in the last 2 years PH'S who are not even licensed business's in Moza,or PH licensed hunt elephant in our Tchuma Tchato area, Thuvi.

I can as the PH, when requested by DA, shoot problem animals, but only and only when I have the official letter from Agric and DA signed and telling me where the problem is, and then I determine whether it is a legit request or just locals trying for some free meat.

If a Client , with a valid Hunting Card, is in camp, and there is a problem elephant, I HAVE TOO PAY THE 5000 USD PERMIT FEE, NO EXCEPTIONS

That is why Toni, and I know myself and some others do not like too shoot PAC with clients. or even shoot them ourselves, it is a waste of elephant for the future.


I can not, and this was discussed at the last PH meeting, hunt in any area that is not my own, without approval and preferably written approval from the other concession owners,

And as such my PH license is only valid in TETE, CAHORRA BASSA

Great thread guys, information from experienced guides on the front lines is invaluable to the consumers on this forum. 2 weeks Walter, you got my lizard tied down?

Brad,

What number shoe do you wear, we need too find a lizard with your boots on it!!!! and the size is relevant

Just pulling your leg, Looking forward too having a great time with you and the missus

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great thread guys, information from experienced guides on the front lines is invaluable to the consumers on this forum. 2 weeks Walter, you got my lizard tied down?

and is my hippo penned up yet?

WOW....This thread kinda makes a guy kinda leary about hunting MOZ.

Certainly makes one leary of "supposed" legit operators.

One of the reasons I like this place so much, Fact from fiction is often proved, prior to experiencing hardship.

Four (imaginary?) hunting areas two in Cabo Delgado, one in Inhambane and one Maputo Province?

See my website. Be carefull, you are trying to make a fool of me....... As a matter of fact I proved on my paperwork that I registered 4 areas in Cabo Delgado alone. I just mentioned two of the four. Meluco, Muidumbe, Chapa, Mocimboa Da Praia. Now do we need to get to the other properties. Zambezia, Niassa, Tete, Gaza and Maputo.

Mozambique is a free country but still some outfitters think they are the owners of Mozambique.

Dear Mr freischuetz

1. I indicated my areas. The list you were checking was most probably outdated.

2. I do not transfer tags or licenses between areas. All my property is registered under one name. As a matter of fact I can hunt my quota between my areas. You most probably hunt a Coutada, you can not transfer your tags.

3. Please check the paper on exstra quota on my webpage, governments indeed do update or give more quota. Get your facts before you point fingers or acuse. There might be a difference in your approach to the government.

4. Licenses or tags, yes I do know what they look like. Your 'recibo' from DNTF is your proof of payment just make sure there is a stamp. Once I paid the animals are mine.

5. No I do not have a Mozambican PH license. I'm not even a PH. Read the website intro, I am Jaco, my dad is Willie.

6. Ok, let me get this clear. You hunt Elephant and then buy licenses from DNFFB. Why do you pay us$ 5000.00 for a license then. I can buy tags, licenses and whatever I want upfront. They are usually valid for 3 months.

I do have a license (cites) for every Elephant that I hunt.

7. Then directly afterwards you state.

You wrong, if you sell hunts and don’t have the quota allocated you misleading your clients!

* Where did I say I sell animals that I don't have on Quota?

Mr freischuetz, you are not the first person to take me on. One of the worlds finest Outfitters and 2 times PH of the year in SA was a partner in my bussiness. He did not make it with all his money and weight.

I do not say that I am right. I do evererything I do strictly according to the book and I constantly have meetings with government oficials to legalize what I am doing. I get stamps on papers and that means what I do is legal.

You on the other hand acused and pointed fingers and in more than one of your points I proved you totally wrong. I can go on and prove you wrong in 99% of your so called "bull shit" attitude points.

Now if you want to make use of a public profile and debate and make it a war, please ask AR to remove me from their forum and webpage.

Maybe you should come to me for a lesson in bussines. I can sell animals for us$ 10.00 if I want to. There is no law that states how much I must charge clients. I did offer some of my clients some free hunts in the last couple of years which they did accept and do. Why can't you do it? The difference is I am a bussinesman and a hunter and a conservationist, what I take from the community I put back in the community. One hand washes the other hand.If a client does not hunt his quota I will get him back to get his quota no matter what the cost. I hate failing in my objectives and will regret the day I see one of my clients not happy.

Passion, there is no replacement.

Eina!! - Slang for BIG SHIT...

i smell

Mr WBS, please i am trying to make sense of your post in reply to freischuetz, all i see is you defensding yourself like you are guilty, i happen to know that you would need proof to clear your name, so please provide it, i am waiting as i am sure are many others, as what you are saying sounds very fishy... please enlighten us...

Go to www.whitebuffalosafaris.com Papers has been published there to show that my operation is totally legal. Mr reischuetz mentions that Klipspringer is a protected species in Mozambique. Please note that I hunt Mozambique and South Africa. Animals listed on my website does not mean it's only for Mozambique.

I don't need to proof anything, my company is registered. I follow the rules and regulations of Mozambique. Mr reischuetz pointed fingers and I published the papers to prove that I am legal.

My properties are called Fazenda De Bravio's. I own more than one and it is not a Coutada. This is Private Properties that can be fenced of. Registered as an outfitter in Mozambique for Tourism and hunting.

I do not need to proof any of my registration papers. This is My own papers and I regard them as Confidential.
Without these papers (Registration) I can not get licenses or import any rifles. I published papers on my website showing documents of import for 2009. Now if you smell something fishy, go look on Mr reischuetz side, my side is clean.

First my apologies to members for the lengthy post!

quote:

Four (imaginary?) hunting areas two in Cabo Delgado, one in Inhambane and one Maputo Province?

quote:

See my website. Be carefull, you are trying to make a fool of me.......

WBS if somebody making fools it is not me!

From all the documents you listed on your website (6) at this time only one refers to White Buffalo Safaris and this one is Credential No.05/2008 which is dated 26th 06.2008 and gave authorization to shoot one Lion and one Elephant in the District of Palma in the area of the administrative Post of Olumbi this credential is for the professional hunter James Lee Mercer. Not for any client! It is also clear that the permit was issued on the 26th June 2008 KNOWHING that between the 20th July and the 20th August 2008 there would be PAC animals in this area! I which I could get of one of these crystal balls.

The Temporary firearm import permit is made out Muangaza not WBS.

The invoice for the surveyor for areas in Chapa and Muangaza is just this there hundreds of them done in Mozambique every year and is one of the requirements for the application for any land this is not an authorization to use the land never mind operate on it. And is in the name of Muganza Safari not WBS!

The next document is a recommendation which get send to CPI as a recommendation to consider the application of investment for Muangaza Safris not WBS. This document is irrelevant because it is blank / not filled in and as such not legal in this form. Even filled in properly CPI cannot grant land concession this is a totally different process. This document IMO should have never left the Government office without filled in details.

The Quota you Posted only refers to the extra 20 elephants allocated by cites to Mozambique and I made it clear in my previous post these are not included in the published quota!

quote:

As a matter of fact I proved on my paperwork that I registered 4 areas in Cabo Delgado alone.

No you not! See above

quote:

I just mentioned two of the four. Meluco, Muidumbe, Chapa, Mocimboa Da Praia.

Now I still find only one of these area with a quota and this is Muangaza safaris (Melcuco)which is on the official list but nothing of WBS ?

quote:

Now do we need to get to the other properties. Zambezia, Niassa, Tete, Gaza and Maputo.

Yes defiantly educate us please I am sure if you got them advertise them.

quote:

Mozambique is a free country but still some outfitters think they are the owners of Mozambique.

Besides you who owns the other half?

quote:

1. I indicated my areas. The list you were checking was most probably outdated.

The list is still the actual quota list plus as indicated in my previous post did not include the 20 extra elephant Mozambique got later!

quote:

2. I do not transfer tags or licenses between areas. All my property is registered under one name. As a matter of fact I can hunt my quota between my areas.

WBS areas? You contradict yourself here anyhow a quota is given to an area based on sustainable of-take rate and this is the reason there are not transferable. But you have not shown any quotas for WBS?

quote:

You most probably hunt a Coutada, you can not transfer your tags.

You cannot transfer quota from any area!

quote:

3. Please check the paper on exstra quota on my webpage, governments indeed do update or give more quota. Get your facts before you point fingers or acuse.

Reed the previous post, then start writing.

quote:

There might be a difference in your approach to the government.

I am sure hope so I follow the Mozambican law!

quote:

4. Licenses or tags, yes I do know what they look like. Your 'recibo' from DNTF is your proof of payment just make sure there is a stamp. Once I paid the animals are mine.

Animal tags and Recibo’s are different things animal Tags are printed with the animals species name on and sequential numbered and “ Recibo” is a proof of payment and both are needed you can have a recibo for multiple animal species and quantities but you need one tag per animal of the correct species.

quote:

5. No I do not have a Mozambican PH license. I'm not even a PH. Read the website intro, I am Jaco, my dad is Willie.

No signature except WBS on the post at AR so how must I know who post?

quote:

6. Ok, let me get this clear. You hunt Elephant and then buy licenses from DNFFB. Why do you pay us$ 5000.00 for a license then. I can buy tags, licenses and whatever I want upfront. They are usually valid for 3 months.

No read again! Or perhaps let me explain for the benefit of our members: you need a hunting license upfront for the hunter, then you have to buy the animal tags for the animals the hunter intended to hunt and the operator must have on quota, then after the hunt you can only apply for the cites permit, if it is a cites animal, ownership certificate, vet permit and export pemit.
Animal tags are valid for the calendar year and not for 3 months!

quote:

I do have a license (cites) for every Elephant that I hunt.

You talking about Tags or cites permits? You can only have cites permits once the animal is hunted not before what you need is the allocation of these cites animals in your quota!

quote:

7. Then directly afterwards you state.

You wrong, if you sell hunts and don’t have the quota allocated you misleading your clients!

* Where did I say I sell animals that I don't have on Quota?

Read again IF

quote:

Mr freischuetz, you are not the first person to take me on. One of the worlds finest Outfitters and 2 times PH of the year in SA was a partner in my bussiness. He did not make it with all his money and weight.

I am mighty impressed or should make you feel good and say intimidated? Guess what?
However, I would like to congratulate your ex partner for “not making it”.

quote:

I do not say that I am right. I do evererything I do strictly according to the book and I constantly have meetings with government oficials to legalize what I am doing. I get stamps on papers and that means what I do is legal.

I know you not right and BTW you using the wrong book. Why you have to legalize what you doing if you keep on telling us it is legal? FYI not everything with a stamp is legal.

quote:

You on the other hand acused and pointed fingers and in more than one of your points I proved you totally wrong. I can go on and prove you wrong in 99% of your so called "bull shit" attitude
points.

lets start with 10%
I am still waiting for you to proof me wrong.

quote:

Now if you want to make use of a public profile and debate and make it a war, please ask AR to remove me from their forum and webpage.

Saeed is the owner of this website not me and we all own him a big thanks to make this forum possible so any removal of you from my side is not going to happen so don’t worry! Thanks Saeed

quote:

Maybe you should come to me for a lesson in bussines.

I rather not!

quote:

I can sell animals for us$ 10.00 if I want to. There is no law that states how much I must charge clients.

I did offer some of my clients some free hunts in the last couple of years which they did accept and do.

Lucky clients, you such a generous person.

quote:

Why can't you do it?

How do you know I did not? Cristal ball again?

quote:

The difference is I am a bussinesman and a hunter and a conservationist, what I take from the community I put back in the community. One hand washes the other hand.If a client does not hunt his quota I will get him back to get his quota no matter what the cost. I hate failing in my objectives and will regret the day I see one of my clients not happy.

Yes the difference is great I am a Conservationists then a Hunter and last a Businessman with some sense of what is wrong and right!


You overlooked some of the points in my previous post care to answer these for our benefits?

Got your PM I am still shaking.



Cheers

and it just gets deeper,

Now I wasted a full day in trying to show the papers. So lets go to the next step and leave it up to the discretion of the people here. Go see my website again, this time I will load you the declaration paper. Now you will not have an answer to that. Maybe you would try and convince people on AR that this stamp is also illegal. The declaration is the final paper and conclusive Mr and thanks for wasting my ime. You are welcome to remove me from this website. Do not tell me about CPI or any other Government department, I know how they work.

WBS is a South African company. This company buys out game from Muangaza Safaris which is the mother company. Muangaza is a Mozambican Company.I own shares in both. Go onto Google and type in Muangaza Safaris. First up on Google is the Mozambican Goverment Gazette in PDF format. Search for Muangaza Safaris. Do not tell me this is illegal too. Please read the Gazette if you can read the langauge. Otherwise try use Google translator or Babilon online. My name will show on the paper.

Why say 'íf'? That is a programming term on computers. If not this it will be that. Be strait with your wording. It's a weak point Mr. You are one of those, if you get in trouble you use the term 'íf' to escape. I use the term differently. Figure that out.

My website url was given. WBS is not a person, if you checked my website you would have seen the PH name. Shows how you get to conclusions without reading or any facts. Investigate and get the facts.

Now this forum went from Legal hunts to my legal status in Mozambique, do you need to see my drivers license next. Stick to the point or use your glass ball.

Dear Mr freischuetz

If we can get back to the paper for the hunt. I was issued two papers. I metioned that a Lion killed 23 people in a month. I was issued two papers. One from June 28 To July 18 on one name then the next one on another. I want to see how you take out a problem Lion in a week or two. They move and are very difficult to track down and kill. We make provision for that.

My declaration is on my website. I will provide papers until you have nothing left. I just don't see the need to prove anything more to you. FYI, the stamp on the declaration and duat is embossed and no color. If you need the original please contact the relevant minister. This paper proves that I was approved by CPI, the minister of Agriculture and many more as stipulated in the investment law of Mozambique.

You can contact Standard Bank Mozambique or Pemba and confirm Muangaza's Bank account. You can not open a bank account with no bussines. Then Mr Faloma or the minister in Maputo or shall I say any minister or the former minister of defence or Late Mr Machels son. Maybe phone the prime minister, she knows me too. Oh, and Mr Guebuza will call my dad by name wherever he sees him.

Now this is not a threat or warning, all I say is I do what I need to do, no more.

I am reasonably intelligent and able to read posts but I am confused.

1. WBS is ____________? Jaco Van Deveter? (can't you just come out and post your name?)



2. PAC animal hunt were advertised for sale to any hnter willing to come to MOz and hunt them? Yes or No?

3. PAC hunts cannot be conducted in Moz by anyone except a Moz licensed PH? Yes ot No?

4. OR- WBS, are you saying that the PAC hunts offered are not really PAC hunts but left over quota which you are selling at PAC prices?


5. Or are you saying that yes, in fact, going through proper channels, you are able to sell PAC hunts were the trigger is pulled by an non-Moz citizen or PH and that everything is legal?

6. Is the quoted text posted that says PAC can only be hunted by a Moz licensed PH incorrect?

Or am I completely missing the issues here?

WBS, I know it is difficult to defend oneself on the internet, and that tempers and passions rise. Why wouldn't they?


May I say that it is better not to threaten to just up and leave the forum etc. It is a great forum. The forum needs all input, especially if there are great hunting opportunites available.

I do not know enough (see my questions above) to say yea or nay, but there is a flavor to this that you are selling hunts, for money, that may require cutting corners, or based not on the law, which can be enforced and which one is confident in following and not ending up in a Moz jail. I don't know if this is correct or not- hence my questions.

Or are they offered as "things that can be done" based upon perhaps your relationships with local authorities who may look the other way, stamp this of that, based upon a personal relationships with you?

I don't know either way, but despite your posts, maybe I am thick, but the questions remain unanswered.

Thank you, WBS, and all other contributors, for your time to post- and hopefully answers can be had that are straightforward- and even better, not referenced to other sites and arguments over this paper or that, and what they really are, or are not.

In short, can you spell it out for us a little clearer?

Thank you

404WJJ,
There are several PH's/safari-operators that offer PAC hunts for elephant in Moz.
(Google: Mozambique PAC elephant)
I killed a 45 lb bull in the Cahorra Bassa region in 2004 on a PAC. In general, the animal has to be an identified problem animal or within a certain distance of a village experiencing depredation. All the other regulations must be followed, but no part of a PAC elephant in Moz can be taken by the hunter. If the animal is a trophy, the hunter must have the appropriate license and pay the trophy fee in order to get the CITES (USA citizens can not at present import any elephant parts from Moz).

I believe there may be some confusion over what constitutes a License, a trophy fee, and a CITES permit.

A licensed PH in Moz has a duty to try to help eliminate dangerous problem animals when requested to do so by the village chief or local administrator ( and it's printed on the back of his PH license as shown to us 3 weeks ago by the administrtor of the Meleuco area in Cabo del Gado Province).

Dear Mr 404WJJeffery

Tankyou very much for your positive reply. Now this is how a situation should be handled. Mr SGraves155 posted his reply which states more clarity on the issue. Now I do not refer to people for information or use my clients to give information. As a matter of fact I will never involve my clients in any of my threats. But now I will to give people some more clarity.

The story goes as follows.

I did a PAC hunt on one of my properties close to the South African Border. Halfway into the Safari a Helicopter appeared out of the blues. This happened to be a Patrol Helicopter from the South African side (Kruger National Park) They forced my dad and the client towards his vehicle (on the Mozambican side) When my dad got to his vehicle it was broken into by the Mozambican Police and Rangers from the South African side. A bombastic young fellow (Kruger Park ranger) looking for credit points from the South African side accused my dad and the client of poaching and made it very difficult for them to explain the situation. Paperwork was all in order, but the Police had their doubts. Papers might be forged. It took me 2 hours on a Saturday night to get a Governor out of bed (which Authorized the hunt) and get Agriculture (Which approved the hunt) to go to the border and sort out the problem.

The end was very simple. On behalf of the Mozambican Government, an apology was given to both my dad and the client.

Now, the police, Border police, Kruger Park Rangers and more tried to prove us in doing wrong. They failed. If anybody want to confirm this with my client, I am more than willing to give Colby Reid from Colorado, USA contact details.

The ranger was relieved of his duties and a case of breaking and entering was opened against him. He was also charged with crossing a international border without a valid passport. The Helicopter pilot faced a charge of crossing an international border with no clearance from the South African Aviation authority and no authorization from Maputo. A charge of damage to personal property was also filed. I withdrew all charges at a later stage.

Dear Mr 404WJJeffery

1. WBS is more than me, I represent a company that includes many people, Joint Ventures both in SA an Moz. I did post my web url and if people followed it my name is in the first 3- 10 lines.

2. Yes PAC hunts were advertised to any (USA) hunter that was willing to come and hunt the specific animal if they agree to the terms and conditions.

3. No, this is not true, your Hunting license with your rifle, animals etc is issued. You are a legal hunter in Mozambique.

4. That is correct and in the case of the Elephant you will not be able to take the Tusks or any part of the Elephant. We all know the laws. All paperwork will be in place and I can take out a cites permit if I need too.

5.The license is issued for a trophy animal on the hunters name. As I said previously we will not hunt any Elephant, we will target a specific Elephant. This Elephant is ussualy a problem animal. Hence PAC hunt. The same with Lion and the same with other PAC animals. I was issued 4 Lions, 6 Leopard, 10 Crocs, 8 Hippo and more other game last year as exstra . I do not hunt all these animals as Trophy animals. I will book a PAC/Trophy hunt combo. Now if people go to my original post you will see that all animals listed there is on my quota. In the meantime my quota has doubled. This makes affordable hunts which the middleclass hunter can afford. People dreaming to come and hunt in Africa. The only difference is there is no export trophy and the hunt is in favour of the local communities. Hence there is no trophy fee, just a license fee. With the authorization from the DA we can target specific animals in other areas, not nessasarily on my land. The paper shown on my website is authorization to do a PAC hunt in Palma. The animals was on my quota. We were authorized to take out a Lion/Elephant that was terrorising communities for months. The authorization came from National Level, not only Provincial level. So yes, PAC animals is real problem animals that is shot from my quota either on my land or where ever the problem is within Government controlled territory.

6.No I did not say it can only be hunted by a Mozambican PH. Why advertise the hunt then.

I don't have any personal relationships with any authority in Mozambique. It is strictly, can I or can't I. I want an answer "Yes or No" with the proof.

You can hunt an animal if you are in possesion of the Hunters License, animal license and follow the rules. Stay within your designated area and stick to the rules. Like the Governor of Cabo Delgado stated to my dad. "Follow the rule's of Moz'

I don't think you are thick. Your questions made sense and I answered them. Like I said in a previous threat is that we deviated from the original objective and post, the issue became personal and my legality in Mozambique was questioned.I said my registration papers was confidential and I was forced to show them. I find it as a bussinesman very unprofessional and the lack of investigating a matter which is of no other Outfitters concern. I call it the mentallity of an Afrikaner. I believe by now you should know you get two types of Afrikaners.

Dear Mr 404WJJeffery I will not leave AR. I did nothing wrong. I said if Mr freischuetz don't want me here he must get me removed. I stand my ground and will not back off. I will post papers after paper to prove that what I am doing is legal, my company is legal and I operate legal. If not any stamp in Mozambique is legal as he says, what will hint you on what is legal and what is not. Thats why my question to the government is 'yes or no' and where is the prove.

If I receive an illegal paper with a stamp, the person issuing the paper is guilty. I just go one step further, my partner in Mozambique is a lawyer, once I receive a paper I get it validated.

Now once again, prove me wrong.

To get back to the relation (personal or not) I do have ex government officials and colleagues backing me and helping me with papers and progress. I earned respect from these people and they do help me.

"to support metigation of the conflict man-fauna"

Quoted from my Declaration sighned by

National Director

Mandrate Oreste Nakala 2009

[quote]Weekly updates your own self-made ones, not in your live from any government.[quote]

Please see my website for exstra quota for 2008. It includes 3 lions and 3 leopards and more. I can still ask for the exstra quota for 2009. I can ask for one lion now and whenever I need another one if DA can allocate it. There was a meeting last year in Gaza Province by ministers etc. It was approved from national level. I am not going to waste any more time in publishing papers. I am a busy man, I run a big concern and companies in SA.


If a client do not shoot out his animals I sell it at a bargain price.

How do you sell an elephant for 1750$ refundable plus 10 days at 700$ if the government animal tag cost 5000$ that means you make a cross profit of 3750$ on the hunt or 375$ per hunting day. And from this 375$ you maintain and develop four hunting areas? I take my hat off; you could make a killing as consultant!

No I do not develop my hunting areas with this money. I do not have one cent credit, I owe nobody a cent. It merely covers my costs. If you read my CPI and DUAT papers you will see that I am investing us$ 1 500 000.00 into my company. I can afford it, thats what makes the difference

Jaco v Deventer

Lets clearly summarize, it all started with WBS offering PAC Hunts

You have not shown or named one hunting area registered in the WBS name!

You did advertise the hunts and areas as WBS areas! What you saying now they are in a different name?

You did not show any official quota for WBS! Only quota you showed is for Muangaza?

You did claim on Hunt in Africa website that you? or your father is a Member of MOPHA (Mozambique Professional Hunters Association) which does not exist?

You claimed having hunting areas / properties in Maputo province and Inhambane provinces are they in the name of WBS or in whose name?

What about the other properties in Zambezia, Niassa, Tete, Gaza ?

Are any of these areas of WBS listed on the official published Quota?

What are the names / location / of these other areas?

You did advertised hunting outside the hunting season?

You say that selling PAC hunts is legal in Mozambique?

You say you got Cites permits for each elephant you hunt including the PAC hunts?

You still have not answered the question if your clients got type A, B, C, D, or E hunting licenses issued?

Are your clients hunting licenses issued in Maputo or on provincial level?

Are you having Mozambique National as safari clients / hunters?

A simple yes or no will do for the most part

First priority of the issue here is about protection of the Client!

If an American citizen hunts anywhere and brakes knowingly or unknowingly any law of the USA or the country he hunts in he could be subject to prosecution under the Lacy act.

If the client takes the chance and risk to be prosecuted for committing a felony that is up to him after all we not talking about a parking ticket!

The problem arises if the client is under impression it is legal to hunt PAC and he end up later paying a price he did not know about upfront!

Who wants to have a surprise party by the FBI/ USFW /BTAF and going to all the legal hassle and expenses for some misinterpretation by a third party?

Bending rules might be doable or common and not really taken serious in the country you hunting in and could be overcome with help of some payment of a “Fine” or using some “connections” this I guess is not going to work in the USA.

It is just a matter of time till USFW will catch up with this and then the first one to know will be a sorry client.

Other concerns are that Mozambique is not viewed favorably by USFW this is why no legal elephants trophy’s can be imported in to the USA from Moz. one of the reason given is the uncontrolled hunting and lack of national sound management of elephant population.

Advertising and pre ordering of PAC elephants does not look like sound management and is used as argument against imports by USFW!

The economic damage done to Mozambique Hunting Operators is considerable just by excluding them from the US market!

The financial damage done to the country is high getting 5000$ per elephant or not is a lot of money if all is added up at the end.

Damages, to local communities, living in the areas where legal hunting operation take place is, also high. 20% of all licenses fees/ animal tags and leases raised from these areas are paid in cash annually to the surrounding communities.

Not every so called PAC animal has to be shot! Lethal options are the last resort if all other options have been exhausted this is just not a good sales argument come to an African safari and maybe you get chance to shoot over the head of a elephant.

Damage to 50 or 100$ worth of corn is not a reason to declare it a PAC Elephant and kill it!

Instead compensate out of your pocket.

From the law 10/99 of 7th July
ARTICLE 69
Competent entities

1) Those competent to carry out the type of hunting referred to above in defence of people and goods are specialised brigades which should comprise inspectors or other functionaries from that sector (SPFFB), community agents assisting the inspectors, professional hunters and community hunters

2) In terms of the previous number those assisting the inspectors, the professional hunters, and community hunters may, together with the SPFFB request that they are authorised to hunt in defence of people and goods

3) This type of hunting is unpaid, and all those locally involved must mobilise all methods available in order to ensure its efficacy when requested by the SPFFB or other competent bodies as referred to in No. 1 of this article

ARTICLE 71
Abuse of hunting in defence of people and goods
Anything which is not authorised, or which is alleged to be hunting in defence of people and goods but does not fulfil the legal criteria to that effect, and which results in the capture, killing or injuring of a species of wild animal is considered to be hunting without a licence or hunting not in accordance with the legally established conditions


SECTION VI
Hunting for defence of people and goods
ARTICLE 68
Requirements
1) The following constitute the requirements for the exercise of hunting in defence of people and goods
a) The existence of an actual or imminent attack by wild animals on persons or goods
b) The impossibility of driving away one or more animals which are persecuting or attacking people or goods
An imminent attack is considered to be when one or more wild animals are heading for or have entered property or dwelling areas with strong indications that they may attack the people and goods existing there