I only do this with my leftover quota. Thats why I advertise trophy and PAC. In this way I shoot out all my licenses and do not forfeit any for the next season.

Maybe I understand this.

WBS has a client and gets the hunting and elephant licenses. He then finds a local official who designates a particular animal a PAC animal.

As a PH WBS could shoot this animal for free but other unscrupulous PHs bring a client along and let them shoot it without the licenses and charge them the trophy fees. This is what the law says is illegal.

WBS has the hunting license and elephant license for his client so apparently that makes it not-illegal to shoot the elephant and since it is a PAC animal there is no trophy fee.

Does that make sense?

Ok, now we get to the point. Fjold you understand the basics. Maybe I made it more clear now. Just remember that most of these animals is shot on my own properties except if I am asked by Agriculture to go and sort out a more serious problem in another area. I will then get the authorization letter to do so.

Ph's will then take a client to go and shoot this animal. This is illegal, you must have the authorization letter plus hunting and specific animal license.

Only authorization is illegal hunting and can end up with heavy penalties.

please you may be gaining a bit of money now, but if your clients get cought while on one of theese hunts it will ruin there lives, so pleese find another manner of conducting business...

I've had inquiries for Trophy hunts and I did not yet respond to them. I answered the people but up until I get my point strait I will not sell one animal or Safari. Dear Mr, I dont come hear to stay for a week and dissapear. I am here to stay and I will get to the point where everybody will understand.

If I want to make a quick buck, I can sell animals or safaris and run. This is not my intentions.

quote:

This is illegal, you must have the authorization letter plus hunting and specific animal license.

Only authorization is illegal hunting and can end up with heavy penalties

I am sorry, I cannot make heads or tails out of the above.

Fjold / Valm

WBS advertised PAC hunts last year in Tete, Niassa and Cabo Delgado provinces even outside the hunting season. WBS nor Muganza had any hunting quota in 2008. How do you hunt legally without Quota?

2009 listed Muganza having 1 Elephant on quota on their game farm in Cabo Delgado from the additional 20 elephants Mozambique got allocated from CITES.

A client shoots a elephant you better have the quota and the paid tag in your hand (5000$) and you can only shoot it in the area for which this quota was allocated!

Once shot your quota is finished for the year! There is no way declaring this elephant as PAC and then using the tag for the yor next PAC hunt or trophy Elephant hunt!

Clearly any type of legal Hunting can only be done during the official hunting season 1th June till 30th November!

WBS Or at least Mr. Jaco van Deventer does not know the law, does not understand Law’s or does not want to follow it!

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
Saeed
Please end this this is stupid and getting people upset that is not the purpose of this forum. CUT IT OFF

Threads like these are very helpful to anyone interested in hunting the specific country. I am interested in hunting Moz and will do so in the future, and now that I am aware of these factors it will not be with WBS or anyone else trying to sell PAC hunts in Moz.

quote:

Originally posted by WBS:
I think earlier in this post I mentioned my way of operating (PAC) is my secret and I will not share my recipe. Yes sir, there is a loophole in the law and up until the day the law change in Mozambique, what I do is considered legal.

As Saeed said earlier, I DO NOT want any secrets when booking a hunt worth several thousand dollars.
You said "what I do is considerd legal"....In whos eyes? Obviously not everyone is onto "your secret", as another fellow on this thread is from MOZ and continually denies your claims, and has posted several items to make him believable. So if he doesnt know, how are we to believe that the the people who want to throw us in jail are up on your, secret(s)?
You havent been able to thoroughly explain your so-called facts on here in several days & with several posts, how could an aspiring client believe you would be able to explain to the authorities "what they dont know", and keep our asses out of the MOZ prison system?

I am afraid that you have been publicly executed on this thread, and though I dont know the ins & outs of all of it, I can safely say I likely wouldnt do a Mozambique PAC hunt, and am even more likely to not hunt with WBS. This African forum is the best I've visited, and am afraid to say that I think that you have irrepairably tarnished your reputation on here (maybe elsewhere too, word travels fast).

I understand your right to TRY to clear your name, but IMO you need to stop digging!

Lhook7
I was making a point if we cant figure out by now after these on going posts not to book with this guy, it like beating a dead horse I guess how much more, its getting real old. All that is happening is your keeping this guy around. LET IT GO LET HIM GO.
Larry

elk88101,

Thanks for the expanation, I understand what you are saying now.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

This is illegal, you must have the authorization letter plus hunting and specific animal license.

Only authorization is illegal hunting and can end up with heavy penalties

I am sorry, I cannot make heads or tails out of the above.

To hunt an Elephant in Mozambique you need a Hunting license and a animal license with the specific hunters credencials. If you hunt outside your area you need a authorization letter to hunt that specific area, weither it's your neighbor or another outfitter.

Fjold / Valm

WBS advertised PAC hunts last year in Tete, Niassa and Cabo Delgado provinces even outside the hunting season. WBS nor Muganza had any hunting quota in 2008. How do you hunt legally without Quota?

2008 Quota.
N/REF 723/DNTF/08
Informa -se a V. Excias que nos termos do numero 2, artigo 20 do Decreto 12/2002,de 6 de Junho, foram aprovadas e fixadasas quotas de abate, extraordinarias,
, epoca venatoria 2008..........

Sighned by the director General Nacional..... Raimundo Cossa (Jurista)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


2009 listed Muganza having 1 Elephant on quota on their game farm in Cabo Delgado from the additional 20 elephants Mozambique got allocated from CITES.

Can you read Mr. I made it very clear that I am involved in Joint Ventures in Mozambique. Let me give you one example, Phone Mr Manhique
in Pemba, ask him where is Muangaza Safaris, then you ask him how far is Mtsewa Safaris from there. Let me make it easy for you, Mtsewa borders
Muangaza Safaris. Now go see your Elephant paper again. That gives me acces to 2 Elephants.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A client shoots a elephant you better have the quota and the paid tag in your hand (5000$) and you can only shoot it in the area for which this quota was allocated!

Now did I not say that or can you tippex out my posts?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Or at least Mr. Jaco van Deventer does not know the law, does not understand Law’s or does not want to follow it!

No Mr, you are here to damage my reputation. You first accuse me of not existing, then when I corner you on that you jump to another, and you go on. Mr, I proved beyond reasonable doubt that I am legal. I give a damn what you are saying. What you are telling people here is that with a Hunting License, Elephant license and a registered company in Mozambique it is illegal to hunt. How do you do that if I can't. Stick to the topic.

I posted my Quota
I posted My Declaration
I posted My Gazette with Company Name.

WBS is a South African Company, please note that many South Africans market animals from Mozambique in the same way I do, the difference is that I am a landowner in Mozambique.

If I advertise all quota I got acces too under Muangaza it will be false advertisement, Muangaza is allocated what the government allocates to it. The rest is what I (WBS) buy out from other Outfitters or Joint Venntures. Nowhere in any of my papers did I say WBS is a Mozambican Company.

Just one more thing, I did registered another Hunting Company in Mozambique 3 years ago.

Now Mr yet again, I backed myself with facts, please stop your accusations.

Mr Can you show me Mtsewa Safaris quota on the papers that is published online? You will find Muangaza, Hunters Mozambique and more but not Mtsewa.

Look at the bottom of the paper, you will see that Mtsewa is listed in short, abreviated. Once again please note that papers in Mozambique can be deceiving if you are not aware. Not everything is published.

To hunt an Elephant in Mozambique you need a Hunting license and a animal license with the specific hunters credencials. If you hunt outside your area you need a authorization letter to hunt that specific area, weither it's your neighbor or another outfitter.

I am sure I am still not the only one who is not sure what is going on, so please explain this to us.

The government charges $5,000 for and elephant as a trophy fee?

One has to have a hunting license to hunt it.

A PAC elephant costs $1,750.
A hunter from out of the country is NOT allowed to hunt PAC animals, so how can he shoot an elephant, which is normally costs $5,000, and you are able to put that down as a PAC, which is not legal for him?

This is what I understand from your posts, and we would all appreciate it if you can clarify it for.

To hunt an Elephant in Mozambique you need a Hunting license and a animal license with the specific hunters credencials. If you hunt outside your area you need a authorization letter to hunt that specific area, weither it's your neighbor or another outfitter.

This is true. I do have authorization for most of the areas I hunt. Joint Ventures and Partners.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I am sure I am still not the only one who is not sure what is going on, so please explain this to us.

The government charges $5,000 for and elephant as a trophy fee?

Per Elephant trophy or not. You can not shoot or hunt an Elephant with a client/hunter without this license, it is poaching and illegal.

­___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One has to have a hunting license to hunt it.

Yes, it is the yellow document which is issued for each individual client/hunter.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A PAC elephant costs $1,750.

If you shoot it. If you do not shoot the Elephant I forfeit the license. Can not use it again.
­­­­­­­­­­_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A hunter from out of the country is NOT allowed to hunt PAC animals, so how can he shoot an elephant, which is normally costs $5,000, and you are able to put that down as a PAC, which is not legal for him?

Saeed, I pay the Elephant license out of my pocket and let me explain why.

(The Elephant is on my quota)

1. If I do not hunt out my quota I stand to loose it for next year. The Elephant was allocated to us at a very late stage in the season. I do have exstra buffalo, leopard, lion etc. To make sure I do not loose these animals next year I book them as non trophy hunts at a low price which opens a market for:

*Us Citizens that want to shoot an Elephant.
*Hunters that can not afford a us$ 25 000.00 - 32 000.00 trophy Elephant.

My terms is:

*For that price you can not shoot my trophy Elephants. I did a few Elephant hunts where the tusks were 75lbs and plus per side.
*I will take you to an Elephant that was pointed out by the communities or Agriculture as a Problem Animal. If there is not one, which seldomly happens you are the lucky hunter. You get a good non trophy Elephant like the first picture on my website. 68 lbs. Only thing is you get only the pictures. Agriculture immediately takes the tusks.
*This Elephant is a Problem Animal hence the name PAC, it is NOT a Trophy animal.
*I clearly state minimum 40 lbs.

The law states:

*You need a Hunters License (Yellow Document)
*You must be in possesion of a License to hunt the animal.

The only way this will be illegal is when this criteria is not met.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is what I understand from your posts, and we would all appreciate it if you can clarify it for.

In short, this is a non trophy hunt.

If you look at the whole picture now you will see that you book an Elephant @ us$ 700.00 per day with the option of a trophy Lion (License + Trophy fee applies), a buffalo (License + Trophy fee applies), a leopard (License + Trophy fee applies) and plainsgame.

Hunters will add onto the Elephant hunt because of affordability and the list grows. Now I will lose us$ 5000.00 here but I make it up in the balance in ekstra days for additional animals and trophy fees. License fees is paid to the government.

I bennefit as follows:

*I sell out my quota
*I lose us$ 5000.00 on licensefee today but I keep my quota for 2010 which makes it possible to market us$ 25 000.00 -32 000.00 Elephant Trophy hunts in Europe and Russia for 2010.

The books balance.

I think somebody deleted a post now, I wonder why.

So you are actually saying you pay the addition $3,250 to make up the $5,000 trophy fee that is required?

So that you do not loose that elephant from your quota for the next year?

That is correct

OK, one point is cleared.

Now, how about why can't the hunter take the ivory, as he ha shot with a license?

WBS
Stop wiggling just answer the questions!

Whose elephant you advertising on AR? You shot already your 2009 allocated elephant quota according to your website?

Based on whose quota you advertised the 2008 hunts?

You advertise these hunts outside the legal hunting season! Why, how come?

Why would any other outfitter sell you his allocated elephant for 5000$ without making any profit?

The allocation of quota does not require too shoot these animals so the argument you losing the allocation for next season is not valid!

You also offer additional to your “ PAC” elephant bull a second and third elephant cow at extra cost but you post here that you don’t shoot juvenile or female elephants? How do you aspect people to believe you?

The papers (Declaration dated 13.02.2009) is not a legal document!

The quota extra document from the provincial department refers to provincial quota and is exclusive for Mozambique Nationals and cannot be utilized / sold to non Mozambican!

The license gives you/Hunter only permission to shoot an Elephant within a designated area in Mozambique. Nothing more.


US citizens can not get any Elephant Products from Mozambique into the US, thus can not take the tusks or any product of the Elephant, it is illegal and punishable by law.

_______________________________________________

If the Elephant was marketed as a Trophy Elephant and the hunter is European/Russian/Polish or any other country it will be possible to take the tusks if I follow procedure on export with a valid Cites Permit.

Note that a full price will be charged. Us$ 25 000.00 This includes a trophy fee in this case.

_______________________________________________

After 3 pages of going back and forth, a point was made that one is better to avoid hunting with White Buffalo Safaris!?

I wonder if that is the reason WBS has removed his website from his signature?

Of course, if there is any more details that might make me change my mind, I hope we get it.

I'm here, never removed anything.

quote:

Originally posted by WBS:
I'm here, never removed anything.

Ah, yes you did! He never said you removed posts, he said you removed the link to your website from your signature line....which you did!

I'm not sure if you read my post about halfway down this page, but you really should. Answering the part about how you would explain your "secrets" to the authorities, should one get caught doing alleged "illegal" hunts with you, would be IMO vital to you.

Also, like I said in that same post, I think you have tarnished your reputaiton here, to where you cannot fix it. You need to either explain yourself HONESTLY to where EVERYONE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING, or packup & leave with whats left of your reputation.

quote:

I'm not sure if you read my post about halfway down this page, but you really should. Answering the part about how you would explain your "secrets" to the authorities

I offered everybody the chance to confirm with one of my clients the issue of 'being caught by the authorities' which I believe beyond reasonable doubt, will answer the question. I failed to alert all authorities one hunt and we were caught in the act. With guns and all. I was in SA at the time. I phoned Maputo and asked them to sort it out as this hunt was authorized by Agriculture and all relevant authorities. My dad and the client was held at the border post by agriculture, border police (SA and Mozambique) SA polce and so on. a Couple of hours later they were hunting again after being apologised for.

The e-mail addres is available. Just PM me for it

Colby Reid is from Colorado, he will be hunting again this year or next year. His first hunt was cancelled, the paperwork was not in place, confirm that too if you need to.

Secret, well, I can do it and so can other outfitters too,like some outfitters said in this post, it's a waste of time ands animals and you can do it. I own more than one property, most in this human/animal conflict areas.

I had a signature, only my name. The first post my website shows that was typed in by me on the post

quote:

Originally posted by WBS:
I have the following hunts on special:

10 Day PAC hunts. Problem Animal Control

Daily Rate us$700.00 per day 1x1

Lion Us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Elephant us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Buffalo Us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Hippo us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted
Croc us$ 1750.00 refundable if not hunted

Trophy Hunting:

1 x Cites Elephant us$ 25 000.00
2 x Cites Leopard us$ 11 000.00
1 x Lion us$ 20 000.00

Plainsgame available

www.whitebuffalosafaris.com

Here it is, your website as your signature.

The last thing I would wish to see is being questioned and detained while on a hunt.

Saeed I left that by typing in the url manually, maybe I did take it of, I don't know, where do I put it back?

I did not get in trouble with the Mozambican side, it was a Krugerpark Ranger that tried to score some credits. They entered Mozambique with a helicopter, broke into our vehicles and caused the problem.I am was a new outfitter in the area and the border police did not know about me. It is something of the past, If I get licenses again for that area I will use them.

url was typed in manually, I do not have a signature

Aaaanyway, as I said earlier,
Guys, please be careful.

I know what WBS is selling, and I don't want any of it.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
I know what WBS is selling, and I don't want any of it.

There are a lot of outfitters who offer hunts that have no "secret recipe" in running their business. They run a straight forward and honest operation. Those are the ones we should be supporting with our business.

When I go hunting, I want all the Tees crossed and all the I dotted. Leaving absolutely no question of what I am getting into.

Trying to buy into a "secret recipe" hunting with an outfitter of unknown quantity is to be avoided at all costs.

White buffalo safaris could be a straight forward operation, but from what I have seen on this thread I don't think they will be on my short list of outfits to hunt with.

I couldn't understand why this topic took 3 pages. I decided to read it. This is like trying to read the Internal Revenue Code backwards. It is damn hard to follow.

I personally have no desire to get locked up in any country much less Mozambique. It isn't worth the risk to me. There are plenty of places to go without the risk.

For those interested, I have posted a hunt report on African Hunting Reports Forum regarding my recent trip with Muangaza/White Buffalo.

3 weeks, nothing shot and apparently not much seen. non drinking water from a sand hole. no thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
For those interested, I have posted a hunt report on African Hunting Reports Forum regarding my recent trip with Muangaza/White Buffalo.

Thank you for posting your hunt report.

I am very sorry you had to travel half way across the world and come back empty handed.

And to add insult to injury, it seems the outfitter did not do his homework on the area he is selling.

The more I hear about White buffalo safaris, the more I will keep away from them.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
3 weeks, nothing shot and apparently not much seen. non drinking water from a sand hole. no thanks.

This is bordering on criminal negligence!

If anyone had any doubt about avoiding hunting with this outfit, I think this hunt report makes sure he hasn't any more.

I hate to see anyone here go on a hunt where the animals they are hunting, are really not there.There is a famous quote that rings in my ear,everytime I spend my money and it goes like this,"ONLY A FOOL PARTS WITH HIS MONEY".