I use mine. They're designed (even the pretty ones) to last more than lifetime. The use and handling marks are just part of it. After I'm too old to hunt I'll appreciate all the nicks and dings and remember the time I spent with the rifle in the field. I do it now. When I'm dead and gone whom ever receives my rifles will get what's left of them.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I use mine. They're designed (even the pretty ones) to last more than lifetime. The use and handling marks are just part of it. After I'm too old to hunt I'll appreciate all the nicks and dings and remember the time I spent with the rifle in the field. I do it now. When I'm dead and gone whom ever receives my rifles will get what's left of them.
Terry

Me too, wish I coulda said it that well.

I get LOTS of pleasure when hunting, by just sitting & holding & admiring my rifle and its appearance. Kinda hard for me to imagine admiring the appearance of a synthetic stock and stainless steel, but maybe that's just me.

Some of you guys seem to think that you can't have both appearance and performance, but I beg to differ. Just make performance (to a realistic standard) the first priority and, once that's assured, then spend any extra money on appearance!

If you're scared of scarring your cute little blue-steel-&-wood rifle then perhaps you shouldn't go hunting at all, and if you REQUIRE synthetic and stainless then perhaps you are 'aesthetically challenged' or worse and would be far better off with a factory rifle.

I gotta ask myself, which type of companion would I prefer to share a hunt with me? In the hunt's evening aftermath, sitting around with your libations of choice, which type of rifle would YOU be more likely to want to examine and discuss and maybe lust after?(grin)

If all you wanta do is kill animals then IMO you might as well use an AK-47 or Galil. Heck, AR-10s are a LOT more accurate and durable than any rifle discussed here!
Regards, Joe

quote:

If you're scared of scarring your cute little blue-steel-&-wood rifle then perhaps you shouldn't go hunting at all, and if you REQUIRE synthetic and stainless then perhaps you are 'aesthetically challenged' or worse and would be far better off with a factory rifle.

Would suspect you would have a different opinion after living in a tent for 10 days while hunting off the salt water coast of Alaska. My blued steel and walnut doubles go hunting with me for moose or interior bears. My stainless rifles with their syn stocks go with me on the coast. They each have there place depending on the hunt.
First and foremost, a rifle is a tool. It has to be the correct tool for the hunt on hand.

A smart workman chooses the best tool for the job

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Would suspect you would have a different opinion after living in a tent for 10 days while hunting off the salt water coast of Alaska. My blued steel and walnut doubles go hunting with me for moose or interior bears. My stainless rifles with their syn stocks go with me on the coast. They each have there place depending on the hunt.
.

Haven't lived for 10 days in a tent on salt water but HAVE lived in an unheated uninsulated shack in the swamps for a month during the rainy season, rained about 50% of the time. Not Alaska but WAS a wet month and hunting required boating to get to & from the hunt area, every day. We get these conditions far too often down here, it's mighty wet sometimes.

I found that informed prep work along with minimal ongoing maintenance prevented any undue damage. Things like wax, wood sealer, oil (graphite for Alaska), varnish etc will prevent or greatly mitigate any moisture effects IF the operator will choose, again, the right tool for the job and maintain it properly.

Even if the rifle falls into the water, complete disassembly and cleanup of a good bolt rifle takes about half an hour. I've been doing it all my life, never thought much about it, it's frequently necessary around here if you hunt hard and care about your weapon.

Been hunting with this one for well over 10 years, every year. It's got plenty of scratches and has been so wet and dry at different times that the wood has been both 1/16" proud AND 1/16" below the steel! So what, it still looks good and will still shoot well.


But I guess things are different for different folks.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Kinda hard for me to imagine admiring the appearance of a synthetic stock and stainless steel, but maybe that's just me.

Ditto. I waited a lot of years for my first custom rifle. It is a work of art, and is an extension of as fine a riflesmith as is out there, in my opinion. It is blued metal stocked in gorgeous turkish, and I don't care where I hunt, it will be the rifle of choice... I was told when I picked it up "If you scratch the stock we will polish it out. You aren't going to dent it. Period."

A high quality work of art, meant to be used. How can it get any better?

Having hunted in a number of southern states, as well as Alaska, I will assure you there is no comparison. A ten (or thirty) day hunt where you are in and around salt water every day, in addition to blowing rain, sleet and snow, and only have a two person backpack tent to come back to is hard on people and gear. After twenty hours of being out in it all day you are not too anxious to do much other than eat something and crawl into your sleeping bag. Cleaning your rifle every day is not usualy an option and even if it were you won't have a full drawer of supplies.
As long as you know that and are willing to accept it then take any rifle you wish. Last year Doug Turnbull brought his original (1887 vintage) M-86 Win on a hunt where it rained 10 days and by the end the forend wood was swollen and actually felt like rubber! As Doug had stocked it he wasn't worried about it but he is the only hunter I have had who would have taken it so lightly.

Good looking metal in a good synthetic stock is better looking than good metal in a mediocre wood jobbie anyway.

Nice wood and blue steel still have a place when hunting in Alaska but there are times when stainless and synthetic are a much wiser and better choice

Tiger "Woods" carried a natural blonde safeqeen for public spectacle,
but for the wild wet & rough, he knew synthetic was the only way to go....

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Nice wood and blue steel still have a place when hunting in Alaska but there are times when stainless and synthetic are a much wiser and better choice

If I wuz wise I would never have begun flying or riding a motorcycle. It's worth it to me.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Nice wood and blue steel still have a place when hunting in Alaska but there are times when stainless and synthetic are a much wiser and better choice

If I wuz wise I would never have begun flying or riding a motorcycle. It's worth it to me.
Regards, Joe

I fly as well but have enough sense that when I need to land on a 200 foot ridge top to take a Supercub rather than a King Air.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
IIRC, Allen Day got fed up and left this sight because

Also for the record he packed his tent and left in some silly protest of some "pagan" winter solstice holiday instead of "Merry Christmas" at the top of the AR pages.

Very close to correct, but not quite .. Allen got pissed when a non-christian holiday was observed, on its day with a banner, NOT displacing Merry Christmas by any measure, as the standard holiday observation is the date of the holiday, from midnigt Dubai time.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Very close to correct, but not quite .. Allen got pissed when a non-christian holiday was observed, on its day with a banner, NOT displacing Merry Christmas by any measure, as the standard holiday observation is the date of the holiday, from midnigt Dubai time.

Yes you are correct. Thank you. I think it was on the 21st or 22nd of December.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I fly as well but have enough sense that when I need to land on a 200 foot ridge top to take a Supercub rather than a King Air.

Supercubs are fine tools but IMO Maules are MUCH better for STOL and I actually prefer a 150-HP Citabria in some cases. Or a helo. Different strokes, I also like F4Us but they're certainly not practical even if I could afford to feed one.

Your King Air simile isn't quite apt in this case, the SIZE is all wrong, you'da done better to use a Lear or Bede or even a Swift for comparison with a walnut-stocked rifle. But I DO get the point; I just repeat that, like Doug Turnbull, all the trouble is worth it to me.
Regards, Joe

Joe, out of curiosity, do you have a picture of that "pretty" Mauser in front of anything dead on this continent? Or even in the field for that matter?

Just curious.

21 day hunt in Alaska.
17 days in the rain....oil and wax sealed. notice the water bead up and rolling off. Also had a bedded barrel. When the shot time(s) came, she hit right where she was sighted in weeks prior. Two dead bears were the result.



If I was a guide in Alaska, or a similar environment, I would own and shoot a stainless-synthetic. Until that day, I will hunt with guns that are what I consider beautiful and functional, that happens to be wood stocked rifles.

That opinion stated...what Phil said above is very accurate.
After days of dealing with the weather and being tired and hungry, one reaches a point where they dont much care about taking care of gear. That is when really good gear that truly works becomes very evident...ie. Frog Toggs, Helly Hansen etc...
As for the gun...rust wont render it in-operable and if good dense wood is used the water will not penetrate more than 10 or 20 thousands.
I am going to go on record here and state that I am sure Doug T. used Black walnut. Pretty wood but it is a real sponge when it gets wet (regardless of most finishes) and as hard as it can be on occasion...hard does not mean dense. Densely packed fibers are what helps enable wood to stay dry. This is try of almost all woods except White Oak whose fibers have a resin that pulls together when drying happens making it water proof.
In Black walnut and many other hardwoods the open cells of the wood allow the water to pass from fiber to fiber thereby reaching deeper into the wood and then soaking it. Black walnut is known for this.
I like the beauty of Black walnut as much as others, but for a gunstock….no thanks, at least not on a gun that I will use rain or shine. Sorry all you Black walnut lovers.

In the end there really is not a difference, other than deep opinions, on walnut vs. synthetic.
They can all be “custom” I suppose, but some will look unique and look as individuals, those will inexorably all be wood stocked. Why? Simple, it is a matter of nature giving the wood individual character.
Ok, swirls on a fiberstock from McMillian might…..might make it unique but to say so really is splitting hairs and looking into a chasm hoping for a sunset. It is man made and takes a few hours.
Beautiful wood takes hundreds of years and all the much needed requirements. So, in actuality, Mother Nature is the basis for a custom rifle and the true starting point, if only from an allegorically skewed perspective.
Hey, she started your next custom gun project hundreds of years ago….just for you.
Who will ever argue with that? Not me.

Dont be afraid to hunt in bad weather with a wood stocked gun. If you build a custom gun with a wood stock, use good wood!

There are some advantages to synthetic and stainless.

But I'm a good walnut guy.
I am also a radial aircraft engine guy, and a steam locomotive guy, and I really prefer Double and Single shot rifles.

So, no hard feeling here. This has been a spirited thread and full of opinions.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Supercubs are fine tools but IMO Maules are MUCH better for STOL and I actually prefer a 150-HP Citabria in some cases.
Regards, Joe

Joe, in the deep south they probably are. And I certainly wouldn't bother with synthetic or stainless if I lived there either.

Adam, You and I need to hunt together with Lon. Being from California he thinks rifle stocks ( and hard bodies) look better with oil slathered on them while I tell him they look better when they are wet.

Phil,
I would love to come up and hunt with you....you know that is on my all time list of hunts to go on before I kick it. I will one day, and having Lon there would be all the better.
I will bring the scotch too!!! lol

Incidentally, the gun in the wet photo (and I agree with you about being wet) only has a stainless barrel. All them other silvery parts are simply not blued! I did not have time to finish it before I left.
It rusted, but not as fast as I would have thought.

Wet guns and tight twists! Thats the way to go! lol

I am not a riflesmith, but I do understand the English language, I think. One last thought, and I will read and try to comprehend.

The custom rifle I spoke of in my original post has approximately 120 hours of stock work. The majority of that time was spent applying what my smith termed "micro-thin" layers of finish to fill the grain. He applied finish until the completed and uncheckered stock would take no more finish, then sanded with 220-grain, and started over, filling the grain again. Then 400-grain, then 600-grain, then 1000-grain, finally rottenstone (and probably whiting).

The stock is "finished" in the barrel channel, inside the magazine well, and everywhere else, if I understood the man. It may very well swell if I hunt in a rain forest, but I don't expect it to.

If folks like walnut cause is closer to mother nature, maybe one should hunt with stone tipped wooden spears.
After all,Receiver and barrel steels, like Mcmillan stocks and scope glass with advanced coatings argon/crypton gas filled aerospace grade alloy tubes, are all formulated in a LAB. Aint it interesting that people can be so accepting & greatful of one technology but not another.
I chuckle when people pride themselves with the latest tech fitted Mercedes or Learjet, and order the splash of walnut burl to make them feel warmer and closer to nature.....


Nature creates things like walnut, and humans by nature create/invent thinks like synthetics,
Just about everything material thing we have, whether created and/or modified by man or nature, comprises of ingredients that originally come from the ground. Probably about the only material thing that does not come from our planet that is mutually essential to both nature and man, is the suns energy.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Joe, out of curiosity, do you have a picture of that "pretty" Mauser in front of anything dead on this continent? Or even in the field for that matter?

Just curious.

Chuck, I've never taken any photos of any dead animals. Not one, not even the largest mulie I ever killed (5x5, not very pointy but A LOT larger than the whitetails I usually hunt). Never could see much point to it, it's just a dead animal. I have never liked or even requested having my OWN picture taken, much less a dead animal, and in fact the only reasons I even OWN a camera (bought my first one in the mid-'90s) are for photos of projects and items for sale or trade. I HAVE saved a few trophies such as an 18-rattle snake's tail and a few antlers that later became scrimshaw and carving. If I ever kill a big-enough hog then I'll probably keep his teeth to scrim on.

Whitetail deer are so numerous in my state that in one 2-year period I killed more deer with my truck (5) than I did with my guns (only 4). We have so many deer that now big-bore smokeless powder breechloading single-shot rifles have been made legal as 'Primitive' weapons and almost all hunting clubs are REQUIRED to kill a certain number of does in order to keep their hunting lease. The benefits of a more-enlightened state Game & Fish Department, I guess.

My hunting group has been on an '8-point-or-better' program for well over 20 years and it has produced marvelous results. And now feeders are legal! We hunt about 3000 acres of upland with mixed pine, hardwoods and large open areas, and almost every opening day hunt produces at least 1 or 2 10-pointers or better among about 12-20 hunters. In some spots the only limitation is range, the deer will be there almost every day but frequently over 500 yards.

A far cry from the swamps where I hunted as a chap!

I personally am not and have never been a big-time hunter, sorry if I gave that impression, have taken only maybe 50 deer or thereabouts and a few of those were targets of opportunity with my 22LR handgun while out woods-loafing. A few hogs (CF rifle), a few turkeys (CF rifle), many varmints (CF rifle) and a BUNCH of squirrels (RF rifle). Bear population here is growing nicely but no general hunting season on them yet. Of course we have plenty of birds of most sorts.

Wish I could oblige you with some photos but I'm just not the animal-photo type. Don't own or ever even use a cell phone either, go figure.
Regards, Joe

The original question posed by Rich at the start of this thread was:

Is a rifle with a synthetic stock to be considered a true custom, compared to the same barreled action in a good walnut?

Answer....No.
There is not a comparison.

Can a rifle in a synthetic stock be a custom?
Yes.

However, it is and simply will not be the degree or the extent of custom that the same barreled action will or would be in a well executed "good walnut" stock.

Why?
Many hours of skill and a lifetime of dedication to learn the skill will go into the carving and shaping and finishing of the wood stock.

In my garage/shop I can piece together some factory metal gun parts...screw in a Remington barrel into my Dakota 97 action. Is it a custom like a Ralph Martini hand filed barrel?
Not even close!

So, the same can and should be said for a synthetic stock.

Adam

Someone please define "true custom"

Comparing different metalwork/barrels was not part of the original question, but since such a comparison has now been used, I will also use it;

If I ask Ralph to spin me up a more plain less comp-lex round barrel but with custom profile & length unique unto itself and only an integral foresight,
... is that more or less custom than ordering one of his full integral feature barrels[half round/half octag.,full rib,swivel base] which in some cases he has probably identically duplicated [as humanly possible]on a few occasions for other rifles?
Sure you may have a barrel that takes more time and has more features, but it could still be a duplicate seen on six other rifles, thus less individual than the more simple barrel.
Part of my idea of custom is something thats unique or individual,and I guess the more unique and idividual it is, the more "custom" you could consider it.
Custom walnut stocks are typically more unique & individual[geometrically] than a syn. in that they are usually created to meet several of the customers personal measures for proper fit, much more so than a syn.

so, I would say that the same metal work in high quality crafsmanship walnut,requires more indivdual/unique creative effort & skill than the same metal work in synthetic.
However im with Chuck on this;

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Good looking metal in a good synthetic stock is better looking than good metal in a mediocre wood jobbie anyway.

quote:

Many hours of skill and a lifetime of dedication to learn the skill will go into the carving and shaping and finishing of the wood stock.

If you get the guy in the photo below [who personally harvested the trees and prepared his inventory of premium walnut blanks over several decades] to stock a rifle from one of his blanks would one feel that it was more a "true custom" than using a smith that buys blanks in?
If a guy has many years of knowledge,dedication and skill in walnut that goes beyond just being able to do a premium stock job, does one admire or value that persons efforts more?..
Tree in the wilderness to finished stock Vs blank arriving in mail to finished stock.....

Would you feel that your rifle was more a "true custom" if the particular smith actually made his own actions,barrels,bottom metal, rather than buying them in like people do a pre manufactured syn. stock?

"True Custom": a rifle that you pick out the pieces and parts, including the wood blank, and entrust the building to someone who will make you a rifle that fits you.
You do NOT settle for almost, or pretty close, or anything just off the rack.

Therein lies the rub with synthetic stocks. By definition they cannot be custom made just for you. Synthetic stocks can only be altered/modified to fit. No two high grade walnut stocks will look exactly alike, even two slabs cut out of the same section of a tree side by side. Synthetic stocked ones; they will pretty much look alike to the average person.

Ever watch a guy shopping for a factory rifle? They just about always take the one with the prettiest wood out of half a dozen on the rack.

Nothing else says "made just for me" like good walnut.

Rich

I voted no. I have definite standards when it comes to "custom rifles." While I have several rifles that have been "customized", I don't own any custom rifles.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean by custom rifle.









In my humble opinion, a thing of beauty is a joy forever!

On the other hand plastic stocks can be beautiful in their own way. Here is one of my customized rifles.(Note USMC influence)



M70 CFA 7WSM with 9 twist 26" Lilja 3 groove and cheap plastic stock.

Most of my rifles are walnut and blued steel....however when I am going to be hunting from a horse and the rifle riding in a scabbard, then I like synthetic and even stainless steel.

It's very difficult to protect it from brush and nasty rubs when it's in the scabbard and I'm not at all happy when fancy walnut is badly bruised.