If the custom gun has a stock that has been shaped to fit the customer (one would hope that is has been built that way), then from the outset it is not the same rifle as a plastic stock rifle, where choosing a length of pull is your only very narrow option.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

Do I think any synthetic stock is worth more than about $1,000? No.

So am I to believe that the metal work in your wood stocked rifles is worth no more than lets say $800?

Chuck, the SIGHTS on some of my rifles are worth more than $800. Yes, I'd say that the replacement cost on some of my metalwork would run up to quite a bit. Just for grins and giggles I priced one of the last bolt rifles I built and the total was almost $8000 with the cost being split about evenly between woodwork and metalwork. Some engraving but no gold inlay or border, nice express sights & QD lever rings, several traps, all the usual bells & whistles including Krieger barrel, lapped & trued action, etc etc.


BTW this is about 1/2 the Guild price but also not necessarily Guild quality, I'm not a Guild member.

So, where'd you get the $800 figure? If I had only $1800 to spend on a rifle then I'd probably get a CZ or similar and a $600 walnut blank. The rest would go for sights.
Regards, Joe

You clearly stated that no synthetic rifle could be worth more than $1000. So that means that the metal work in said rifle couldn't possible be worth more than $800 just by virtue of the fact that it wears a synthetic stock. So I didn't come up with that figure, you did.

Come on guys. We're talking apples and oranges. In the past two weeks I have had the good fortune to receive an Echols Legend to replace the tupperware on a stainless classic 338WM that I use for elk,nilgai and hopefully tale to Alaska one day. Then I sent a piece of fancy walnut to Jim Kobe who is building a Bob for me. I don't even look at them/place them in the same category. The 338WM is pure function over form, The BOB is a work of art that functions---and will get used. Apples and oranges.

OK, just to show that I like walnut too, here are some more works in progress. Two are really finished, for now, - 6.5x55 and 7x57, but the others still have some work to have done before they can be called finished. There's one missing, a 7x64, which is at the gunsmith now for bedding into an American classic stock, and some other tweeking. They have all been tweeked in some way, by a gunsmith, so although these aren't full custom rifles, they have several custom features, and I like um just as well. Obviously the work on each varies, with the 8x57 and 35 Whelen having custom barrels, and those two started as just an action from Brownells. They now wear take-off walnut stocks. I won't mention dollars, since really it's a lot of rifles, and not too much money.

Cookie cutter stocks, yes. The funny thing that I noticed is that they all have a little different grain flow, and that darn 7x57 stock fits just as well as the 35 Whelen. That amazes me each time I put it to my shoulder. The set triggers, and three position safeties also are boreing, since I'm not challanged each time I use them. Hummm.

BTW, they all easily shoot 1" groups, and sometimes better. The exception is the 7 mag, which is just as it came out of the box - untweeked. I bought it for the action anyway, and when it's finsihed, it will be fine too. The stock on the 8x57 wants to wander in the forearm, depending on local weather conditions, even though it's in the house during the changes. That's wood - some stocks do that.

They were all worked on by a very fine craftsman, whose work is not inexpensive. I won't mention his name, since I didn't ask permission first. He tells me that he fits them in between working on the full custom jobs, so turnaround isn't real quick, but that's alright, since I feel lucky to have him do the work at all. The difference in how they function and shoot, compared to out-of-the-box, is worth it to me.

From bottom to top, 7x57, 6.5x55, 8x57, 7 mag - (soon to be 323 Hollis, replacing the Euro stock with an American classic) and 35 Whelen.

You been messin' with us all this time, and now we find out you do have a redeeming quality?

Man, take a stick to yourself!

Very nice work.

Rich

OK Rich,
Here's a couple just for you. These are examples of full custom rifles, with fiberglass stocks.

The first is a 30-06, on a FN action, MK X bottom metal, Blackburn trigger, 3-position safety, McMillan Classic stock, Lilja stainless barrel, metal is Black T coated, duck tape on the barrel.

This is the rifle that I've had the longest, shot the most, killed more game with, carried more places, than all the others combined. We have memories together.

BTW, the duck tape is to peal off a piece to put over the muzzel to keep out the rain, trash, blueberries, snow, salt spray, fish guts, mud, etc. The tape is especially useful, when I use the rifle to push aside devils club, and alder branches. The reason I carry this rifle the most is because it's tough, and can handle Alaska conditions. I fell on it on top of a slick rock, and the gouge shows, but I hardly notice. Obviously, I selected the camo color before I acquired discerning tastes. It loves Swift 180 grs., a good dose of IMR 4350.

The second rifle is also a FN, in 9.3x62, with Pac Nor stainless barrel, Blackburn trigger, 3-position safety, McMillan Hunter style stock, MK X bottom metal, Black T. I haven't shot it much, but it's very accurate, and I need to put it into service more.

This is a good example of two different stock styles, and I like them both just about equal. I have no problem at all adjusting, going back an forth to either style. They both fit. The stock with the "humpy thingy" as you call it, gives more cheek weld, and controls the placment of my face more, and allows good contact of the butt to my shoulder, which is ok in this case since it's well designed. The classic is more open design, and feels to be held more loosely, for lack of words to form a better description.

I estimate that these rifles were pushing the $1,800 each, with most of the money in the metal work.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
You clearly stated that no synthetic rifle could be worth more than $1000. So that means that the metal work in said rifle couldn't possible be worth more than $800 just by virtue of the fact that it wears a synthetic stock. So I didn't come up with that figure, you did.

Obviously I musta missed something. Where'd the $1800 figure come from? Why the low limit?
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
You clearly stated that no synthetic rifle could be worth more than $1000. So that means that the metal work in said rifle couldn't possible be worth more than $800 just by virtue of the fact that it wears a synthetic stock. So I didn't come up with that figure, you did.

Obviously I musta missed something. Where'd the $1800 figure come from? Why the low limit?
Regards, Joe

I don't know what to say other than you can lead a human to logic but can't make them think.

quote:

Do I think any synthetic stock is worth more than about $1,000? No.

Maybe if you explain this stupid comment to me it will become clear. For somebody.

Chuck, it's actually pretty simple. It's my opinion of the maximum value I'd be willing to pay for the best synthetic stock I've ever seen or heard of.

The Clifton stock, no longer made, had some nice features that are not offered on any current stock but IMO it was still not worth close to $1000 to me. Ditto every single synthetic stock made today, just not worth very much to me.

Please pay close attention here, I don't want you to miss something. Yes, I know all about the Legend. Yes, I still stand by the words 'to me' as signifying my own opinion of the maximum money I'd be willing to pay for ANY synthetic stock for my own use.

So, back to my original question to you: where did the $1800 limit come from?
Regards, Joe

Oh gee I'm an idiot and clearly need more sleep. I thought your were giving a limit of 1k to the entire rifle. The stock alone I can live with.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

Do I think any synthetic stock is worth more than about $1,000? No.

So am I to believe that the metal work in your wood stocked rifles is worth no more than lets say $800?

I have many actions that are over 1K before any work is performed. Stolle, BAT, Farley and Stiller Python's for example.

This is a hand laid up Carbon Fiber stock for example that costs a little bit more that some of the numbers mentioned above.



Love the wood ones as well and with engraving those can get very expensive. It is all a matter of preference and what level of performance/precision one is willing to build into a product.

With respect to performance and only performance the pretty wood rifles are left out in the cold it is just a fact. For most people a 15k (or much more) rifle is not built for precision in the most finite definition of the word because most of those types of Builders are not trained in those methods and processes.

Before you post ugly comments just know that I have had these types of discussions with many of the “Guild” folks at the ACGG show over the years. For example the SN 001 Fred Wells that is being built is a joint project because even if it is a 416 Rigby it has to shoot to almost BR level of accuracy period. That is why John Kriger built the barrel personally, Dave Kiff made the reamer to the specs provided by the Smith who inspected the barrel, chambered and shaped the octagon barrel, machined in the rib, barrel band along with other cosmetic goodies. It is then going to another Smith to perform final build and assembly etc and to perform action machining work required before going to the engraver.

Bottom line is some people do not understand or appreciate accuracy, conversely some do not understand aesthetics and beauty of a finely crafted rust blued engraved masterpiece and then there are those who love both! The point is that if one is willing to do the due diligence and coordination a beautiful masterpiece can be made to shoot “almost” as well as a built sporter by the right Smith.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Do I think any synthetic stock is worth more than about $1,000? No.

Maybe if you explain this stupid comment to me it will become clear. For somebody.

Chuck,
I don't have a problem with J.D.'s comment, and it makes sense to me. After all, it's just a value judgment, and also it's not a big problem to have one of the best fiberglass stocks, McMillan for example, bedded in, finished and ready to shoot for under $1,000.

I'm not familiar with the more expensive synthetic stocks, carbon fiber, etc., which may cost a lot more. But so what? To J.D. they are not worth it, and right now I would be sorta doing the double take thingy if I knew I was getting into a synthetic stock that was going to cost me up to $1,000, and a tripple take on anything higher than that.

I don't make the decision to go with one or the other, based on price, generally. Instead, the decision to go with synthetic vs wood is based on my vision of how I plan on using the rifle. In Alaska, IMO it is handy to have a rifle sighted in and ready to go on short notice, that will handle whatever conditions are encountered, within reason. I simply don't take my walnut stocks / blued metal out in the rain, if I can help it, but I still enjoy shooting them. Walnut on Black T metal (stainless barrel) is a little different, and I would take it in more adverse conditions. Of course the walnut stocked rifles are my first choices for any trip down south, short of a mule pack trip into a wilderness area for a week.

Wood is different, and comparing walnut to synthetic, as far as price, is not a reasonable thing, in my way of thinking about it. Sure, a guy can get a stock made of walnut, fit it, bed it, etc. very - very inexpensively, just shop Boyds. However, the upper $ amount is a very subjective thing, and can far exceed anything in synthetic. I think that's all J.D. meant, which is understandable to me.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I had this discussion this afternoon with the gun room manager at the Boise Cabela's. He thinks stainless and synthetic are as desirable (and valuable) as blued steel and fine walnut.

I disagreed...

Rich

Depends. My most accurate rifle is in a synthetic stock with an aluminum barrel-bedding block. The stock was in a barrel of cast-offs in a Connecticut rifle shop, and had to be modified a little for the rifle to fit. Now it is pretty much weather-proof, nice to know when traveling.

In its original stock I left Connecticut shooting half-inch groups 2.5 inches high, and got to Montana shooting about 4 inches low. When I got home again it shot about 1.5 inches high, presumably due to humidity and temperature.

The rifle is a picky thing, won't stay put in its original walnut and would never shoot decent groups in a 40X stock that I bought at another shop and bedded (maybe that's how the 40X stock made its way to the barrel). It won't shoot decent groups with the barrel free-floated either, seems to require a pressure pad up front even though it's a heavy-barreled rifle.

Strictly speaking, it isn't that kind of cutom rifle, just a blued Remington 700 rechambered from 243 to 6mm-284, with lapped lugs, decent mounts and a 6.5-20X Leupold scope. It's a nice antelope rifle if I don't have to walk too far with it.

Own a few blued/walnut rifles and all are .22's or double rifles. Every bolt centerfire rifle in our safe (including the wife's and son's) is stainless and syn. Since most were "built" with custom barrels and stocks built to our specs some may consider them to be customs, but I never thought of them that way. If double rifles were currently made of stainless and syn stocks that is what I would own as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
As an example, to me a guy like Jimmy Carter lives on the edge, because of what he stands for and does.

KB

very telling

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
As an example, to me a guy like Jimmy Carter lives on the edge, because of what he stands for and does.

KB

very telling

Gunmaker, I'm with you.
Regards, Joe

If you have a stainless rifle made with a wood stock is it a custom? If you have both a Echols with wood and legend stocks is that a custom. Is it wrong for me to like both! If you use really plain or ugly wood is it a custom?

EDMHunter,

No, Yes, Yes, & No.

Rich
DRSS
Walnut & Blued Steel, keeping it real

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
EDMHunter,

No, Yes, Yes, & No.

Rich
DRSS
Walnut & Blued Steel, keeping it real

Rich,
So you are trying to tell me that my full custom stainless and english walnut built by James Anderson and Dean Zollinger does not qualify as a "custom" rifle because I uses stainless? You got to be smoking weed man.

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
EDMHunter,

No, Yes, Yes, & No.

Rich
DRSS
Walnut & Blued Steel, keeping it real

Rich,
So you are trying to tell me that my full custom stainless and english walnut built by James Anderson and Dean Zollinger does not qualify as a "custom" rifle because I uses stainless? You got to be smoking weed man.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
As an example, to me a guy like Jimmy Carter lives on the edge, because of what he stands for and does.

KB

very telling

Whose trolling now?

Whatever it's telling or means to you isn't something new in your head, but was already there, which means the same thing now as it did before - zero - the big void. It only means something to those who can understand, and that ain't you.

For clarification - it means that I can respect some people for what they do and stand for, even if I disagree with them at times, or perhaps don't fully understand them, and even if they make mistakes, perhaps even you, but just barely, and with the aid of some effort.

KB

I voted NO.

There is no way that 2 identical custom rifles, one "plastic" and one with wood, can be valued equally.

Now I am a big fan, and user of "plastic" stocked guns.

Yet, I have also taken some nice wood stocked guns to Alaska, Montana, Idaho, and Canada, including doubles.

However I do tend to use "plastic" guns for their utility, and ruggedness, especially on horseback and snow mobile.

"Plastic" guns have their place, and they can be Custom guns...

But a real CUSTOM gun, to ME has a nice piece of wood.

KB,

I always thought Billy Carter was the one living on the edge...

Rich

M1,

not only that but my dog is bigger than yours, my kids get better grades in school, and my barn will store more hay bales than yours!

Custom must always be a subjective definition, but are you really telling me that stainless compares to rust blue and color case hardening?

Billy, Billy, Billy!!! You have been in that oxygen-thin Colorado air too long.

regards,

Rich
Do I have to put a disclaimer here that the above is prankish?

I think most of us knew that Rich was being facetious. But perhaps he should have made that clear for the few.

I, personally, was ashamed that Carter was ever elected. Kinda like another fellow recently. So, yes, I find it very telling that you admire him, and I consider that fact when evaluating any of your other opinions.

Sorry, you're probably a nice guy, but if you admire the wrong folks then I'm not gonna pay much attention to you.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
KB,

I always thought Billy Carter was the one living on the edge...

Rich

You're a funny man, and I appreciate that.

Billy had his way of living, but not anymore. Remember Billy Beer? maybe, barely.

I find it somewhat amuzing that some of you walnut luvers slant the definition of custom:

http://www.merriam-webster.com...?show=1&t=1283171467

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
So, yes, I find it very telling that you admire him, and I consider that fact when evaluating any of your other opinions.

Sorry, you're probably a nice guy, but if you admire the wrong folks then I'm not gonna pay much attention to you.
Regards, Joe

I picked him as an example, in the context of the point I was making at the time. I figured it helped make the point because he is somewhat controversial, and IMO has made some mistakes, but he is still out there doing stuff, mostly good. Anyway, I dont' need to defend him, and he ain't my hero. I didn't say that I admired him, but instead said that in my value judgment, respecting even an imperfect person's life achievments is better than high regard for those who live for the accumulation of material stuff, especially elitists. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism

You didn't get it the first time, and the thought of Jimmy got you side tracked - excuse me for that - or not - OK by me. I admit that it was a bit of a troll, and I wasn't too surprised at who took the bait, and drew predisposed conclusions from it, missing the intended point altogether. It was inevitable, just pick a reason.

KB

One of those extremely rare AR threads on a subject about which I actually know something. I grew up in the architectural millwork industry.

One word: laminated. As tough as any synthetic for virtually any application. New bonding techniques allow terrific consistency, and variety. Need some cast off, as I do? No problem. Need oddball LOB/DAC dimensions? No problem. Want something drop-dead gorgeous? Maybe a problem, but only at the very top end.

One other thing. If you want to go "true" solid walnut, as does Idaho, good on ya'. It's your dime. BUT: in anything over about .375H&H, be damned sure that whoever selected and dried the stock wood to begin with knew EXACTLY what he or she was doing...not a terribly common trait, these days. A very powerful rifle being fired is an extremely violent event...lots of forces, lots of vectors. Gorgeous walnut of whatever variety is not necessarily the stronges wood. We have all seen cracked stocks. Just be cautious.

One last thing: the "rifles-are-tools-shotguns-are-art" mantra. How many double shotguns, either SxS or O/U, have you seen with synthetic stocks? The question answers itself.

Wow..pretty long for a "one word" post!

Good hunting.

JD,

we are now allowing one Mulligan per quarter. I vote we give KB this one.

M93,

good one liner...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
JD,
we are now allowing one Mulligan per quarter. I vote we give KB this one.
Rich

Fine by me Rich, he seems like a nice guy, I'd give him 2 mulligans if he promises to not mention any more politicians!
Regards, Joe

Interesting word, Mulligan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulligan_(games)

Add one to my list of known words. I'm plenty humble enough to accept the Mulligan, in good spirit, and in it's own special way, I'll even consider it an honour.

I'm with you on the politicians - although I didn't think of the man as a politician anymore, rather a humanitarian working in a political arena, by necessity. However, I would rather talk guns and hunting anytime, which is a lot more fun.

KB

This subject always turns out the same. I agree the term "custom" has become very blurred. A guy slaps on a poorly finished Richards Micro fit on a factory barreled action and thinks he has a custom rifle. While I disagree I don't piss in peoples corn flakes when they're showing their pride and joy. I think a synthetic stock rifle can be qualified a custom but simple economics tells us it's value is lower than a finely crafted wood stock. At the same time a poorly finished "custom" wood stocked rifle has no more value than a factory stocked rifle synthetic or wood, in many cases less. However, we all see these rifles for sale listed as custom with a price tag too high.. The difference is, custom or not, is that synthetic stocked rifles are utilitarian tools in most cases and wood stock rifles art in the hands of a skilled maker and even in the cases of the amateur doing his own wood a labor of love. You can't say that about glassing a barreled action into production synthetic stock, that's just being a mechanic.

I like to judge a rifle wholistically[the sum of all its components and specialised efforts involved], not just whether its stocked in wood or syn.
Some folks value the extensive effort mr.Echols puts into the metalwork on his syn. legend rifles and the tight sub MOA groups they regularly and consistently deliver,
whereas some smiths dont strive to achieve the same high std of metal or grouping accuracy, but will put many hrs into creating the walnut stock.

This thread reminds me of the Hunting Vs Shooting debate.

I got it now;
* It only needs to achieve 1.5 MOA "hunting accuracy" cause its more than adequate, but the finer the inletting on the walnut the better.
* Im only really hunting with a real custom rifle IF; the stock is walnut and all shots are under 150yds for non dangerous game and 30yds for dangerous game...and I dont fire at an animal from a vehicle that offers better view & clearance over high grass for a clean kill, you need to walk the official conscience clearing few yds away, set up your shooting [oops!] Hunting Sticks, so you can feel better about yourself, but before you step even two feet from the vehicle you need to have a round chambered with the safety on, or theres something wrong with you.

...

guys....its easy to get heavily fired up with opinions on a subject such as this.

any gun can be custom after a point, it matters not the total sum of its parts or that which they are made of.

the difference comes in the final product and the definition of custom. Only in those two segments can one separate a custom from a non-custom. And at some point we all have different opinions there as to how many parts must be exchanged and or modified to be considered a “custom”.

Custom being defined as something that is personal.
But therein lays the problem for a person defending a synthetic as a custom. While it may be a full on custom, a synthetic gun neither looks personal nor does it truly feel custom or personal because it looks like thousands of others.

Wood gives the gun a personal look and it gives it personality, it provides uniqueness to the gun and separates it from others; even others that have wood stocks because they simply look different due to the difference in grain.

That is something synthetic can simply never accomplish…to provide a natural, organic uniqueness that the human eye immediately identifies.

And, the more highly figured the wood, the more unique it looks. Does that mean it is more custom, no, certainly not.
Just more unique….maybe. But that is entering the realm of personal taste, and that is not to be defined by any other person other than the owner and or builder.

Most people can recognize really fine walnut, and readily and easily figure out that it is not factory. Switch that fine walnut stock for synthetic and the same people will tell you they bought one just like it on sale at K-Mart on sale for $239.95 last month.
Synthetic is pragmatic(def#3 practical). It's not a slam or a value judgement.

Rich

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
EDMHunter,

No, Yes, Yes, & No.

Rich
DRSS
Walnut & Blued Steel, keeping it real



Rich,
So you are trying to tell me that my full custom stainless and english walnut built by James Anderson and Dean Zollinger does not qualify as a "custom" rifle because I uses stainless? You got to be smoking weed man.



William Berger

True courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne

The courageous may not live forever, but the timid do not live at all.
Posts: 2772 | Location: Fort Carson, CO | Registered: 20 March 2004

Ok now that your rifle is a stock rifle I will go $400 for that non custom rifle! If I could buy a rifle as nice as yours from a MFG
I would never buy a custom! Very nice rifle!

I'll stick with my previous post as I understand "custom" in the context of this thread as being an adjective with the meaning of the rifle being "made specially for the individual customer". Being that an individual customer may "desire" to have his/her "custom" made of stainless steel using a fiberglass/kevlar/carbon stock instead of chrome moly using a wood stock, that particular chosen stainless steel and fiberglass/kevlar/carbon stock will be "more desirable" and have "more value" to that individual customer than chrome moly and wood.

I think it silly to say that using the adjective "custom" can only apply to what one particular customer "desires" or "values" and does not or cannot apply to another. And as to great value, hardly any of the rifles we are speaking of that are being regularly used will hold their retail value. Why in the world would an "individual customer" pay top retail value for any custom rifle that was made for another individual customer's desire and not their's, unless of course the maker and/or that individual customer is long dead and was someone famous. You will only pay top dollar for what you as an individual desire. Stainless and Synthetics can, and in many cases are, more desireable and have more value than CM and wood in a custom ordered rifle.

Best

We have the traditional definition VS revisionist theory.

Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die.

You stainless/tupperware guys are just wanna-be's.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
However the Boise manager sounds like an idiot. NO WAY can a synthetic-stocked rifle be worth anywhere CLOSE to the value of a fine wood-stocked rifle.

Boise? Try the Lacey Cabela's and likely any Cabella's Gun Library manager or employee.

Last month they tried to sell me an "unfired" nickeled SAA with the nickel blasted off the end of the cylinder.

This month I was told any work done to a CZ 550 was wasted money and made it worth less!

Imagine someone with a straight face offering $1800.00 for this gun in .416 Rigby?

I can imagine that. At the Boise Cabela's for instance.

Another Cabela's story.

I was talking to the gun library mgr last month about a pre-64 factory 300 H&H. Nice but not spectacular. He says, whatcha got for trade? I says, clean Wildey 6" in 45 WM. He asks me to bring it in, so I do a couple days later. He shows me one on their computer inventory in Texas they are asking $1750 for. I point out mine is in the box, has the manual, two magazines, and several boxes of Wildey factory ammunition.
He acknowledges those facts and then tells me (with a straight face) that he could allow me $900 trade. I suggest that he wants a nearly 100% markup on mine. He agrees, but tells me his hands are tied. The Wildey did go home with me about 30 seconds later. I have never been able to deal with them.

Rich
DRSS