I had this discussion this afternoon with the gun room manager at the Boise Cabela's. He thinks stainless and synthetic are as desirable (and valuable) as blued steel and fine walnut.

I disagreed...

Rich

Question:
Do you consider a rifle with a synthetic stock a true custom, compared to the same barreled action in good walnut?

Choices:
Yes. Here's why
No. Here's why

 

I voted no I think a nice wood stock is almost always better but there are some rifles that need a synthetic stock sniper rifles look better with a nice piece of fancy plastic but over all on almost all custom rifles wood


Its always better to have wood than just rubber

because the guy paying for the rifle should have what he wants if thats kevelar then so be it.

I have rifles with synthetic stocks and they definitely have their place. But the question is whether or not a true custom can be built with a synthetic stock.

A stock maker can carve a piece of wood (of your choice) to your individual measurements and specifications. I would only consider a rifle with a synthetic stock a true custom if it was custom built to my measurements, shaped to my taste, and checkered to my specification.

I prefer chocolate chip ice cream.

Of course a synthetic-&-stainless rifle can be considered custom, it's as custom as a wood stock although IMO not NEARLY as desirable. It's easy to reshape many glass stocks into almost anything you want.

However the Boise manager sounds like an idiot. NO WAY can a synthetic-stocked rifle be worth anywhere CLOSE to the value of a fine wood-stocked rifle.

I gotta laugh when I see some of these overpriced synthetic-stocked rifles from well-known makers. What a crock! Custom? Yes, of course. Worth the money? Only in your dreams.
Regards, Joe

synthetic and stainless guns definitely have their uses. such things as pry bars, fence post drivers, traction mats etc. all come to mind

quote:

...a true custom...

I didn't vote. But, with highly polished, blued steel becoming a rarity, I'd think a walnut stocked custom rifle should have that feature.

I voted no. I think the term custom is becoming too broad a term to describe any rifle that has had something modified. Custom to me means that someone with a large amount of talent has spent a large amount of time to produce a one of a kind firearm that stands out from anything else around it. I do think there is a place for the stainless/synthetic firearms but most are similar barrelled actions put into the same molded stocks and given a paint job. I build both types and there is no where near the labor of love in the stainless/synthetic as there is in the blued steel/walnut style rifles.

CUSTOM is a Realitive and A Subjective Term-------

I kind of have a hard time with this one. Synthetic stocked rifles can be highly customized to the needs of the owner. So if you think of it that way then yes they are custom rifles. I see them more as “Customized” rifles.

Most are approached from a utilitarian stand point, which isn't a bad thing in its own. The problem with synthetic stocked "customized" rifles are that just about any rifle builder can duplicate another person’s rifle almost down to the swirly pattern in the stock, plus most of them don't look any different than most of Remington's current offerings in their catalog.

One thing about wood is that every blank is different and no two wood stocks will look exactly alike. A lot of people on this forum can look at the work and narrow it down to 1-2 people without being told the builders name, however I'm not one of them. Plus the artistry in the checkering, shape of the stock, and metal work that goes into a wood and blued rifle is amazing; to me that is the true mark of a "Custom Rifle" in my opinion.

Of course a rifle with a synthetic stock can be considered custom. The term "custom", as Boss said, is a relative and subjective thing.

A rifle can have custom modifications, such as trigger, safety, stock, etc., and is usually referred to as simi-custom. A rifle built from a donor action, surely should be considered "custom", as the end result has little remaining of the original factory accompanyments.

This definition of "custom" has little to do with what the parts are made out of. If you say a rifle with a synthetic stock is not custom, then is a rifle with at titanium receiver, or aluminum bottom metal also not "custom", just based on the type of material in the parts?

"Custom" to me means that the rifle is put together by a gunsmith from parts selected by the customer, and to some or large degree is different than available in a factory rifle.

I have a rifle, for example, Mauser '98 mil-surp receiver, FN commercial bolt, FN commercial bottom metal, Blackburn trigger, Dakota safety/shroud, Shilen SS barrel, Leupold bases and rings, Black T coated, all dropped into a marvelous Hogue rubber stock. Is that "custom" or not?

A Ruger stainless action, with Timney Trigger, Leupold rings, PacNor SS barrel, McMillan stock is every bit "custom" as any other custom rifle. Putting a wood stock on it doesn't change the status from something that is not custom to something that is. Heck, you could use the original Ruger walnut stock, or synthetic stock, and the rifle would still be "custom", sitting somewhere in between simi-custom and full-custom.

I seriously think that those who reserve the definition of "custom" to include only rifles with walnut stocks are pretentious. By that definition, one could take a $400 used Ruger, bought at the pawn shop, put a $5,000 high grade walnut stock on it, and call it "custom".

I have several rifles that I consider "Custom", and none have high dollar walnut stocks. Granted they may not have the resale of high dollar walnut stocked rifles, but high dollar is not a qualifying factor in the definition of "custom" - is it?

I have a tendency to spend the dollars on the metal work, and lately use drop-in stocks (or minimal bedding) to get shooting soon. Upon resale, I would probably be better off to sell as a "custom" barreled action only, so the pretentious types can envision whatever high-grade walnut they want on it.

I get a lot of satisfaction out of a rifle with great metal work, that shoots well. Add a really nice stock of walnut, then I start babying it, and noticing every scratch and dent, which takes a lot away from just enjoying the rifle for me. I fell hard on a big slick rock and slammed my 30-06 so hard that it busted the scope and gouged the McMillan stock. I switched scopes, and enjoy the rifle just as much as before. If it had been walnut, especially high dollar, it would make me sick to look at it every time. Once, my brother ran over one of my McMillan stocked rifles - with no damage - it shoots just as well as before. I can't imagine that with a walnut stocked rifle.

Back when I was in college, I wanted really badly one of the FN Mausers in 7x57, but couldn't afford one. I remember going into a gunshop in Buckhead Atlanta GA, and drooling over the rack of FNs, especially the 7x57. About two years ago I finally bought a "custom" FN off Gunbroker. It had a Timney trigger, and some brand of 3-position safety, and a beautiful custom walnut stock. I mean this stock was top quality, with the best inletting and checkering. The rifle was much better than the factory FNs I saw on the rack. The fulfillment of the dream wasn't what I thought it would be. I couldn't stand the thought of damaging that stock. So, I listed it on Gunbroker for twice what I paid for it, and it sold at the buy-me-now price within the first week. I haven't missed it at all, partially because I have a tweeked factory CZ 550 in 7x57 which easily shoots 1" groups, and IMO it's a lot better rifle than the FNs were. Heck, I bought two CZ 550s, a 7x57 and 6.5x55, and paid a gunsmith to tweek them, with the profit off that fancy FN.

KB

If the metalwork is identical, then I'd say that the composition of the stock does not make or break the custom rifle. Synthetic stocks obviously give a cookie cutter appearance, but a quick look at the best gun makers that use wood will display that while subtleties may change the basic stock layout doesn't(cookie cutter approach). I will add that a well made rifle with a composite handle is a better value than a wood handle. That is to say that while wood is beautiful if your intentions include the possibility of resale you'll lose a hefty percentage of the cost of a wood stock, that's not necessarily the case with a composite. Perhaps that is what a gun buyer/seller intended by saying "more valuable"; he meant better value and that's tough to argue against.

I think that walnut is great for looking at. A wood and blue rifle looks really good. If I was looking for a collector I would go with pretty wood. As far as my hunting rifles I would go with synthetic stainless. I live and hunt in Alaska and the elements can be bad. go out on the ocean for a week of bear hunting and see what the salt water does to your rifle. go on a sheep hunt for 10 days and see what the rifle looks like after. I have had wood stocks crack and warp. I think that they both have the purposes.

Safe queen to take out when friends comes over=AAA walnut

Gun that gets hunted hard and I dont have to worry about the finish=synthetic stainless

I guess the fact that you can agonize for days, especially at a site like Luxus over grain, coloration, mineral streaking, etc appeals to me.

The only variation in synthetic is what color did they paint the tupperware.

Synthetic, again to ME, is just inert. Whereas walnut has life in the finished stock. I don't worry about taking them out hunting, it is what I buy or have them built for.

There just isn't anything "special/custom" about synthetic. Esthetics to the fore!

Rich

Yea Rich,
I know what you mean. Sometimes I just look at the pretty grain flow in that walnut stock on My CZs. I think about all the care it took to cut the lumber just right to get the quarter-sawn piece, with the grain just right in the grip and forend. I think about that beautiful tree it came from somewhere in Europe, the shade it provided in summer, its nuts, the sap flowing through its pores, the smell of it, and the years it took to grow, and I imagine the landscape there. It just makes me want to hug a walnut tree. Seems to have the same effect on you.

I mean, hugging a chemist just ain't the same thing.

Kidding aside, I can see both sides of this issue. Still, when I bump the deer stand or a nail or a truck door with a Hogue stock, compared to a nice piece of walnut stock, there comes to mind a different feeling, and also a different result - no mark on the Hogue, and a dent in the wood. That's primarily why I like synthetics.

Calling them tupperwear stocks is not accurate when talking about some of the better synthetics, and fiberglass stocks. To me injection moulded plastic stocks are in a different class, and feel like tupperwear stocks.

McMillan stocks, properly bedded, and fitted, have a real rigid and sturdy feel, and shoot very well indeed, bringing out the best that the metal work has to offer, consistantly and over time. The painted McMillan stocks, with the texture rather than the moulded in color, have yet another feel. The Hogue stocks can offer the same results, far less expensively.

Walnut has nothing to offer over that, except looks.

KB

When synthetic stocks first came out 25 or so years ago,we thought that the pros out there knew what they were doing and we should follow.It turns out that they didn't know what they were doing and it was just a sales thing hoping to con people into thinking they needed a synthetic stock for their rifles to shoot better,rain?? or for whatever else.

Of course they are all custom after a point regardless of the handle material, though I am heavily biased.
The difference really is that synthetics have no soul to them, and can you imagine handing down to the younger generation a gun with out a wood stock?
Kind of like a hammer or a set of screw drivers.
How fast they would get sold!

shootaway...that is the truest statement ever stated on AR!

It is a bill of sales sold to the gun buying public by those that stood to profit...and like sheep they manipulated.

I have seen synthetics warp and crack, same with laminates.

Unless I lived in the rain I would not own a tupperware stock.
Even then, I doubt I would...a little wax and oil is all that is needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
He thinks stainless and synthetic are as desirable (and valuable) as blued steel and fine walnut.
Rich

Absolutely stainless and synthetic can be desirable as blue steel and fine walnut. There have been quite a number of bomb proof custom rifles showcased here and elsewhere over the years specifically built for foul weather and salt water exposure that were specifically built around stainless and synthetic. I am sure to those individuals for those specific rifles, nothing but the stainless and synthetic used would suffice and that a furniture grade stock with a high gloss blue steel would have had far less value and would have been far less desirable.

Custom rifles are a blend of art and function to suit a specific taste and end use. There is no such thing as a singular custom that fits all having the utmost value and desire for all. Same goes for handguns.

Best

I guess I look at a dent or scratch in a fine walnut stock a bit differently than some.

I have this teensy dent in my CZ 450 Dakota that one of the trackers put there as we were picture taking the Cape Buffalo I had killed with it about twenty minutes earlier. He tugged the head level, and I positioned the rifle for the photo. It had rained all day, his hand slipped on the smooth end of the horn and "DING!!". I see it as a battle scar. It brings memories of the hunt back.
I have a bit larger one on my CZ 375H&H I acquired last fall packing an Elk out to the horses. Another antler/horn scar.

When my wife got those first few wrinkles, I call them "Character Lines".

We ooh! & ahh! over classic old rifles, and try to imagine where those marks were acquired and how. Just can't see that happening with plastic.

The soapbox is now returned to the group.

Rich

A while back I bought a brand-new 4x4 pickup, a fairly expensive ride. I've had plenty of fine cars but always bought & built my mud buggies from used ones.

Took it to the woods, got it scratched up and muddy, even got a few tree scrapes on it the first week. One of my buds commisserated with me, feeling sorry because I had scratched my brand-new truck!

I explained that I bought the truck to accomplish a specific goal and to me the looks were supremely unimportant as long as I didn't hafta WALK! Sure, I don't want an ugly truck but a few scratches are merely what Rich said, character marks.

All my guns travel in padded cases all the way to the stand or take-off point but if they get a scratch it's OK, I don't panic. If you don't want scratches then put 'em in a museum.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
shootaway...that is the truest statement ever stated on AR!

It is a bill of sales sold to the gun buying public by those that stood to profit...and like sheep they manipulated.

I have seen synthetics warp and crack, same with laminates.

Unless I lived in the rain I would not own a tupperware stock.
Even then, I doubt I would...a little wax and oil is all that is needed.

Adam----go ahead and post my rifle pic! Then we can see that SS and Walnut do go together!!!!!!!

Rich, I voted NO.

I would want a good piece of walnut or maple on my pure customs!

I voted yes, but after more thought on the issue wish I could change my vote.

This is assembled, even though it is chambered, threaded, crowned, it probably took Jim Borden about 8 hours to put all the parts together.



This is custom. It took Glen Morovitz close to 3 years to complete.


Alan

its a miserable rainy day, you've read your book 8 times already, the fire is just outside your tent and its flames gave the beautiful graining of the wood stock even more color, it has a life of its own, the heat from the fire kept you warm as you wondered how god made the wood so beautiful. OR

you sat in your tent and the flocking plastic stock melted

I don't own any plastic-stocked rifles and probably never will again since I'm not into tactical stuff any more. It's not so much the fact that they're ugly; it's rather the fact that they have no soul, no charisma, no feeling of awe & admiration for the workmanship & the beauty of nature's creation.

IMO a stainless-&-synthetic rifle is a tool, nothing more, no matter how expensive or accurate.

OTOH a blue-steel and fancy-wood rifle is often a cherished companion, providing a fine source of pride, admiration and inspiration for the viewers as well as the owner.
Regards, Joe

You can't display a synthetic stocked rifle at the Guild show.

My guess why is it takes a certain level of skills to get voted into membership. You can't buy your way into it. The average member has taken years to reach this level.

Learning to build a top shelf rifle with a pre made fiberglass stock could be easily covered in a one week summer NRA class or a small pile of DVD's.

Does this mean I look down my nose at them. Absolutely not. One of the greatest benefits of living in the USA is the freedom of spending your money where you want to.

If the guild show rules were up to me, I'd let synthetic stocked rifles in the show.

Providing................. .............. ... the guild maker MADE the stock.

Not sure anyone fits that bill yet.

quote:

If the guild show rules were up to me, I'd let synthetic stocked rifles in the show.

Providing................. .............. ... the guild maker MADE the stock.

Not sure anyone fits that bill yet.

Yeh, its good to see An Echols rifle in both wood and syn. at the same stand at SCI, and it would be good to see Ralf Martini show both wood and syn. options at ACGG.
Echols pays McMillan to manufacture his own design, and they provide him with an basic unfinished syn. stock,
I dont see that as much different to most custom smiths that pay someone to provide/manufacture actions, barrels,sight components,barrel bands,grip caps,bolt handles,bottom metal, QD rings etc, etc.

Synthetic's are no where near as involved as a fine grade walnut.

Actions can be equal in both, but the exact same action bedded in a H-S stock is a certain value.

Taking that action and bedding it into a piece of Luxus walnut is going to dramatically increase the value. Hands down, no comparison.

i will throw in my opinion again.

This is a topic near politics, religion and God help us…ballistics! But, why not…

I hunt for the joy of the intangible, the memory and the experience. Yes, I also enjoy the taking of a brute past his prime, (or in it) but long ago I realized that the joy of being there meant more to me. Camp with friends, the fire, the scotch or port by the fire, solving the worlds problems as men of intellect do when belly is full of wild game, head full of the hunts memory, and when warmed by a camp fire. The sunrise and set from a mountain top or the smell of the tide when stalking a bruin...all of it, the same things you think of when you read what i am writing.

To me, hunting is not an act that requires the use of a mere “tool”. It is a deeply personal decision to hunt and kill and consume that which I kill.

I have a son. Why, why in the name of all that is important to me would I hunt with a tool rather than a personal extension of me, his father, something that I chose for its beauty and a reflection of my personal tastes, why would I hunt with anything else?

When I am gone and I leave him my rifle(s) they will have been hunted and worn from my hands, his fathers hands. He can ponder the adventures I took them on before I started taking him and equally he can reflect on his own memories with me.

If he wants tupperware he can get that from his momma. LOL.

I never have understood the mentality behind synthetic.

Here is one that is worn….even worse now than when this photo was taken. To me….to me it gets better looking every passing year.

Patina!

Well some folk might only inheret an Remington KS mountain Rifle from their pa, and based on sentimental value/hunting memories wouldnt trade it for a fine walnut custom.....its what a person may personally value that matters, not whether its syn. or super bling walnut.
Custom rifles & walnut are nice, but like any other rifle, they remain an inanimate object.
Some women value their marriage not based on the size price& grade of diamond ring.
Nor does an expensive fancy gold inlay leather bound bible contain any more wisdom than a cheap one.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
You can't display a synthetic stocked rifle at the Guild show.

My guess why is it takes a certain level of skills to get voted into membership. You can't buy your way into it. The average member has taken years to reach this level.

Learning to build a top shelf rifle with a pre made fiberglass stock could be easily covered in a one week summer NRA class or a small pile of DVD's.

Does this mean I look down my nose at them. Absolutely not. One of the greatest benefits of living in the USA is the freedom of spending your money where you want to.

If the guild show rules were up to me, I'd let synthetic stocked rifles in the show.

Providing................. .............. ... the guild maker MADE the stock.

Not sure anyone fits that bill yet.

Let me see if I really understand? You seem to be saying that whether a Smith has the skill or not to make a top notch wood stock is a make-it or break-it deal as far as Guild membership, disregarding his metal-smith skills?

The one week and DVD thing - do you mean a person of apptitude could learn the top metal smithing skills in a week and from DVDs, and simply drop that work into a pre-made fiberglass stock, bedding it in, and call it top quality?

I think I've seen pictures on this very forum site of some very highly skilled stock work by you, and it was accompanied by some very fine metal work by others. As I understood it, you didn't do the metal work. So, by your statment, the walnut work is the whole measure that qualifys that piece of work as Guild quality? Are you saying that a custom barreled action or a factory barreled action inletted and fitted into a $5,000 custom walnut stock is Guild qualified, and the same barreled action in a McMillan stock is not?

The technology of making a fiberglass stock is far different compared to a wood stock. Taking your suggestion that the Smith make it himself, is a good example of the mentality demonstrated here. A Smith or an individual can buy one of the top quality fiberglass blanks, in a variety of shapes and styles, and finish it to custom tastes, far-far less expensively than making one or just a few in a small shop. It's unimaginable to me to figure the difference in cost with such endevor, which is a prime example of why the Custom Walnut stocks cost so much - it's the personal attention, and one-at-a-time mentality, and necessity. Fiberglass stocks would cost just as much if they were made the same way, and we are so fortunate that it ain't necessary - they cost too much as it is, for the best.

I venture a guess at what the McMillan clan would say to the question of membership in the Guild, based on wood vs fiberglass. You know what I mean.

KB

KB,

you are correct there. Woodworking skills make or break the rifle.

It's the investment/value issue. Humans tend to value things inversely proportional to the time and effort (read $$$) necessary to acquire them.

I believe anybody here who can read and comprehend at an eighth-grade level can bed a synthetic stock and make it look good.

Set two or three synthetic stocked rifles side by side by side, and tell me how long you spend comparing the intricate swirls and varying texture of the paint...

Set three wood stocked rifles up like that, and tell me you don't spend time looking at the grain structure, the colors, the mineral streaking...

I have a question for you to ponder. What attracted you to your wife, assuming you are happily married? I'm going to guess she was pretty, and shapely. I met my wife, took one toooooooooooo long look into those baby blue eyes, and I was a goner.

Rich

Rich,
That's why we have debate, and discussion over differences of opinions. It's OK.

I'll think about what you've said, and maybe resopnd later, when I have more time.

One thing though - your original question used the word synthetic. I suppose that includes fiberglass, tupperwear, and plastic. Some on here insist on using the derrogatory terms tupperwear and plastic as in a comprehensive way. That's not right, and pre-loads the conversation, and is annoying at least. Sure, fiberglass is also synthetic,, but obviously in a whole different class, as far as quality and durability and IMO suitability. I'm not sure exactly what the Hogue is classed as, but IMO it's somewhere in-between the top and bottom.

Regards,
KB

I own five made from scratch stocks on rifles. The gentleman than builds the stocks has me over many times to check for fit. I will typically suggest the LOP, Drop at heel and comb, the openess of the grip, perhaps a palm swell and a bit of cast off and then the shape and width of the forearm. We work on these details while I am in the shop to get it just right.
They are "custom" to fit me.
I am not sure how much of that you can accomplish with a plastic stock.

EZ

Trax,

Check PM.

only point i was making was i distinction between walnut being more personal and synthetic being more sterile and not so personal.

nothing to do with wood grades. just wood and synthetic.

no offense meant and no owners of Remington KS moutain rifles were harmed during the typing of these posts.

LOL


its all fun...

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Let me see if I really understand? KB

Trolling again?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You seem to be saying that whether a Smith has the skill or not to make a top notch wood stock is a make-it or break-it deal as far as Guild membership, disregarding his metal-smith skills? KB

You can find information on guild membership over on the ACGG web page. You won't find it on Wikipedia. Stockmaker and Metasmith are different categories of membership. There are several others. For Stockmaker, one of your application stocks must be made from a blank without the use of a pantagraph. You also need to provide dummies for members to test the feeding.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The one week and DVD thing - do you mean a person of apptitude could learn the top metal smithing skills in a week and from DVDs, and simply drop that work into a pre-made fiberglass stock, bedding it in, and call it top quality? KB

For a Rem700, absolutely. That's where you'll find your favorite flavor of swirley. However, learning is one thing, applying what you've learned is quite another. Building one of these is more technical and innovative than creative. Hand applied custom paint jobs can be quite creative though.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The technology of making a fiberglass stock is far different compared to a wood stock. Taking your suggestion that the Smith make it himself, is a good example of the mentality demonstrated here.
KB

To build a fiberglass stock, you first need a pattern. I wonder how many of these makers make their own patterns? Creating something from nothing. I know that on 2 of the 3 rifles pictured above I built the patterns from scratch. But they're semi-production rifles and don't need my name stamped on them.

I like eezridr's post. Makes sense to me.

Still don't have any problem with people spending their own money where they want.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I own five made from scratch stocks on rifles. The gentleman than builds the stocks has me over many times to check for fit. I will typically suggest the LOP, Drop at heel and comb, the openess of the grip, perhaps a palm swell and a bit of cast off and then the shape and width of the forearm. We work on these details while I am in the shop to get it just right.
They are "custom" to fit me.
I am not sure how much of that you can accomplish with a plastic stock.

EZ

The thing is EZ, that human anatomy has long ago been figured out, and unless one is "fitting" a stock for a gorrila or orangutan, it's all mostly in your head. I assure you that the best of the fiberglass stocks will fit normal folks very well indeed. The only thing missing is all that personal attention, patronizing, ego stroking, sales pitch, and $$$$.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Humans tend to value things inversely proportional to the time and effort (read $$$) necessary to acquire them.

Rich

i think you meant proportional .. as inversely proportional means you value it more when you got it for less .. and if it was really tough and expensive, you hate it