Mr. Steele, I sure we have the opportunity to meet one day. I enjoy your well reasoned post and humor when needed.

Thanks for the good words, alive! Hope I can always contribute something of value, it's part of my pay-forward program(G).
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I can imagine that. At the Boise Cabela's for instance.

Another Cabela's story.

I was talking to the gun library mgr last month about a pre-64 factory 300 H&H. Nice but not spectacular. He says, whatcha got for trade? I says, clean Wildey 6" in 45 WM. He asks me to bring it in, so I do a couple days later. He shows me one on their computer inventory in Texas they are asking $1750 for. I point out mine is in the box, has the manual, two magazines, and several boxes of Wildey factory ammunition.
He acknowledges those facts and then tells me (with a straight face) that he could allow me $900 trade. I suggest that he wants a nearly 100% markup on mine. He agrees, but tells me his hands are tied. The Wildey did go home with me about 30 seconds later. I have never been able to deal with them.

Rich
DRSS

The most recent used Wildey I saw on the open market was May 24th this year. It had an NRA Grading of Excellent, and it was with custom case and two magazines. It could not bring a single bid with the starting price set at $1,495. It is an odd 4+plus pound pistol with a very narrow customer base. Cabela’s has no interest in collecting these Wildeys and their only consideration would be for moving the pistol at a marked profit. I think it idealistic, being not compatible with reality to expect a business such as Cabela’s to give out a higher trade-in value. Same could be said for a CZ. No matter how you dress up a factory CZ, it is still a CZ and such a semi-custom will not be as profitable to move as would a custom or semi-custom built on a sought after Mauser or Winchester, especially if built by a well known company or top independent smith. Czs are like Rugers to Cabela’s and they sell a ton of both at a dime a dozen.

You’ll probably be best off taking your time to find the right buyer and selling directly if looking to get closer to top dollar. You’ll always take a hit when going to someone like Cabela’s, but they do offer you an advantage in speed and effort of sale.

Just like the topic of this thread, the desire and value of a firearm is equal to the desire and value placed by the individual. Some place high value and desire upon the Wildley, some do not. Some place high value and desire upon the CZ, some do not. Some place high value and desire upon a stainless and synthetic wilderness rifle, some do not. Some place high value upon a Guild masterpiece blue and wood hunting rifle, some do not. Some place high value and desire upon art more than function, some do not.

Best

I could not have said it better myself.

All things are worth what someone will pay for them.

Rich

Is it still a custom if you buy it used? I would think thats why some would say a synthetic custom would sell easier than a wood stock rifle that has someone else's stock fitting.

quote:

Originally posted by EDMHUNTER:
Is it still a custom if you buy it used?

Ouch! Short answer: absolutely not!

It is just a $K, Mod 70/98 with a ________ barrel, McMillan or english stock with X,Y & Z etc etc etc

There may be no "I" in team, but there must be one in a cutom rifle. As in "I had him ..............."

quote:

Originally posted by EDMHUNTER:
Is it still a custom if you buy it used? I would think thats why some would say a synthetic custom would sell easier than a wood stock rifle that has someone else's stock fitting.

Sure it is. Custom made just means it wasn't mass produced in a factory to standard specs. Just because you might be the second customer to own it doesn't mean that it ceases to be a custom built rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Sure it is. Custom made just means it wasn't mass produced in a factory to standard specs. Just because you might be the second customer to own it doesn't mean that it ceases to be a custom built rifle.

Well then, you have made the precise argument for the pro synthetic guys, haven't you.

I have 2 one a .338 Win and a .416 Rigby which I bought second hand both unshot. I do not consider them custom rifles. One was built by Johnston & Gervais, the other Patrick Holehehan. They're just "high dollar rifles" to me.

Is a second hand bespoke H&H, W.R. or Rigby bolt or double a custom? Of course not, they're just a, H&H, W.R. or Rigby. Kinda loses it's luster....they belong in the "high dollar rifle" class.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by EDMHUNTER:
Is it still a custom if you buy it used? I would think thats why some would say a synthetic custom would sell easier than a wood stock rifle that has someone else's stock fitting.

Sure it is. Custom made just means it wasn't mass produced in a factory to standard specs. Just because you might be the second customer to own it doesn't mean that it ceases to be a custom built rifle.

Me too. Regretfully, it's still a custom in my mind even if it's on its third owner and has one o' them cheesy plastic stocks. Sadly, I can't discriminate the definition simply because of a difference in taste.

We need to remember that fifty years ago almost every shooter in this country thought that abortions like white-line spacers were the neatest thing to come along since sliced bread....but fashions change....
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Sure it is. Custom made just means it wasn't mass produced in a factory to standard specs. Just because you might be the second customer to own it doesn't mean that it ceases to be a custom built rifle.

Well then, you have made the precise argument for the pro synthetic guys, haven't you.

I have 2 one a .338 Win and a .416 Rigby which I bought second hand both unshot. I do not consider them custom rifles. One was built by Johnston & Gervais, the other Patrick Holehehan. They're just "high dollar rifles" to me.

Is a second hand bespoke H&H, W.R. or Rigby bolt or double a custom? Of course not, they're just a, H&H, W.R. or Rigby. Kinda loses it's luster....they belong in the "high dollar rifle" class.

I'm making no arguement for synthetic vs wood. My whole point is that sequence of ownership has nothing to do with whether a rifle was custom built or mass manufactured. Something is either original or custom, and it has nothing to do with value or taste.

The term "custom" is over rated if taken out of context. Custom doesn't mean high quality. You could take a factory Remington and cut down the butt end, or drop it in an aftermarket synthetic stock and technically you just made yourself a custom rifle. But that doesn't really mean anything.

Just like you could put mag wheels on a Pinto and it would not longer be factory stock, but a "custom" car, which when resold is still not factory stock, but "custom" despite being lacking in taste and of low dollar value.

Maybe it is a matter of semantics, but if you choose to call high end rifles just that and avoid calling them custom, then that is your choice. I don't hold it against you, but neither would I hold it against anyone to call a second or third hand rifle custom if it was a one of a kind build. Choosing to label something "high dollar" versus "custom" has absolutely no tangible effect on its actual value.

Rigbys or H&H, hmmm... I would consider them somewhat akin to a Saleen Mustang. Sort of a semi-custom(?). An improved version of the factory offering, produced for a limited market, but not necessarily commissioned on an individual basis. (or maybe they are?)

A custom car is still a custom car even when it changes hands. (regardless of the quality or level of customization) I don't see why a rifle wouldn't be considered in the same manner.

I voted yes because while I prefer a fine blue job and a beautiful piece of wood and fine checkering I can appreciate a stainless steel gun that has been finely tuned and shoots one holes in a quality synthetic stock.

Yes, I'm not Hard on Gun's.. Where I go is..
AK

Is a rifle with an aftermarket synthetic stock a custom? Of course it is, like the Pinto with mag wheels.

Is it worth more money? Almost certainly not, even if the synthetic stock was very expensive; because no matter how expensive, it's still a synthetic replacement with little aesthetic value and no charisma or warmth AT ALL. Again, like the Pinto with mag wheels.

A replacement wood stock OTOH can become whatever the maker wants in the way of workmanship, design, shape, dimensions, stock fit, embellishment, styling details and charisma. Plus, unlike the synthetic, it's WARM in the physical as well as the spiritual sense!

Like the Pinto drive train with a Ferrari body!

My TOOLS are usually made from synthetics. My ART OBJECTS are almost always made from natural substances.
Regards, Joe

This is going on a SS Ruger #1 in 375 H&H


Just got the pic----will have SS hardware as well and a English deep subtle red pad.

I prefer fine wood and blued steel. The right combination can be nothing short of a fine work of art. I have a client who sells gunstock blanks (one piece and two piece) and he has 35,000 (that's right, 35 thousand ) of them. I love to go over to his shop and look at the beautiful wood and imagine a fine blued shotgun or rifle made from the different grades, styles and coloration of his gunstock blanks. I have personally been able to pick out the gunstock blanks for many of my own rifles, shotguns and double rifles from his gunstock blanks inventory and what a pleasure it is to later see the finished product on a fine firearm! Each piece of wood has nature's handiwork in it and a good gunstock maker/finisher will bring out the very best in that wood!

some gun-porn

when they make synthetic look like this, wait, they can't. lol

i like that one in the middle, who ever got that one - im wishing it was me!

Thanks for the eye candy!

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
some gun-porn

when they make synthetic look like this, wait, they can't. lol

i like that one in the middle, who ever got that one - im wishing it was me!

Ha just noticed that Clay put the pic of my blank in that group pic LOL...

A synthetic stocked stainless barrelled custom can be just that - custom. That said, they are not, and will never be on par with a wood stocked rust blued rifle. Stainless/synthetic rifles are assembled but when you spend the time to hand-inlet a stock and carve same from a blank and rust blue the metalwork you have worked and acheived something. It's not assembly, it's creation. Compare buying a dog and having a child. The dog is great, and you love it, but the child is a part of you.

Chidren have been know to grow up and kill their parents for the inheretence, as of yet I dont know of any reports of a dog that has conspired to kill its owner, but i do know of dogs that have put their life on the line for their owner and their children.

synthetic and stainless are about as appealing as silicone tits.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
synthetic and stainless are about as appealing as silicone tits.

Rich

Still fun to play with.

NOT! ten years later, or to a subsequent owner...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
NOT! ten years later, or to a subsequent owner...

Rich

Maybe I need to introduce you to one of my old girl friends! She can show you some spectacular older bodywork and then show you some spectacular newer applications for it.....
Sorry, couldn't resist, fond memories and all, regards, Joe

Joe, Joe, Joe...

OK, I. S.,

What do you recommend when your beloved walnut moves around with the change in the weather?

I've had a few rifles with walnut stocks arrive in proper condition, then later upon inspection, I see one side of the barrel channel pushing up against the barrel, and an ugly little gap on the other side, apparantly in protest somehow of being shipped to Alaska, like it forgot what moist air is all about.

Just curious. Maybe a $2,000 walnut stock doesn't do that, or one is less likely to notice it, the greater the cost, and the closer the inletting.

I mean really, your walnut stocks should have significant problems with moisture just from all that drool alone, regardless of the weather.

KB

I say it depends all my rifles have walnut stocks that stay in the safe but field use day in day out hunting rifles wear plactic. When it comes to scratches dings etc I becomes really ocd so for me both show peices bring out to show company durning poker games walnut hunting rifles plastic

A good bedding job will go a long way toward having a rifle that doesn't change POI. All my rifles have wood stocks and none change POI that I've ever seen, even with the rather dramatic humidity changes we get around here in the southern US.

But all my bolt rifles have free-floated barrels and very firm pillar or similar bedding, almost independent of any wood pressure except around the visible edges of the inletting. Been doing it this way since about '75 and it works for me.

Am currently assembling a 1903 Springfield in a plastic Pacific Research stock, won't be my first plastic one but may well be my last. I plan to see just how well it'll shoot with a military-style shooting sling. Sometimes I think the plastic forearm is too flimsy to resist the unavoidable warping pressure of the left hand under the sling, so I'll find out for sure by shooting it.
Regards, Joe

The humidity is pretty low here, it makes news when it climbs much above 20%. Properly pillar bedded, it shouldn't move. My gunsmith also seals the pores in the barrel channel, etc with a urethane finish similar to what they use on wooden arrows.
Synthetic stocks eliminate most of the craftsmanship involved in stocking a rifle. It also boosts the profit margin by a tremendous amount for a gunsmith.

There is an elderly gunsmith nearby that is building me a single shot rifle. One of the Ondrus action kits, and good walnut. I was over at his shop last week and he was inletting the fore end with a scraper and lampblack. Ever watch that? He taps the fore end on the octagon section of the barrel until it binds. They he slides it off and sees where the lampblacked barrel flats have rubbed. He works with the scraper taking shavings maybe twenty or thirty thousandths thick off. Then black, then fit, then scrape. It would have been easy to just mill that out, and then float it on a couple of blocks with screws. He doesn't work that way. Same thing with the butt stock. It was a walnut blank, that he cut until it looked like a butt stock, then spent a day inletting. At my request he did glass bed it, since it's going to be a 45-3 1/4, and loaded like it's a 458 Lott.
It's called craftsmanship, and you either appreciate it or you don't. Doesn't mean you are an elitist or a goober. Esthetics in different models appeal or not to people.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Properly pillar bedded, it shouldn't move. My gunsmith also seals the pores in the barrel channel, etc with a urethane finish similar to what they use on wooden arrows.

On the two rifles I'm talking about, it's the forearm that's wandering, maybe elsewhere, but not so evident. I've dealt with one by catching it on a good day, when it was somewhere in the middle, rather than up against the barrel, and sealed the barrel channel with some tru-oil. So far that seems to have worked.


Synthetic stocks eliminate most of the craftsmanship involved in stocking a rifle. It also boosts the profit margin by a tremendous amount for a gunsmith.

The profit depends on the synthetic stock. With McMillans there is some skill in doing the bedding right. For the Hogue drop-in stocks, I order them from midway, so there is no profit or craftsmanship in it for the gunsmith. The metal work is a different story.

There is an elderly gunsmith nearby that is building me a single shot rifle. One of the Ondrus action kits, and good walnut. I was over at his shop last week and he was inletting the fore end with a scraper and lampblack. Ever watch that? He taps the fore end on the octagon section of the barrel until it binds. They he slides it off and sees where the lampblacked barrel flats have rubbed. He works with the scraper taking shavings maybe twenty or thirty thousandths thick off. Then black, then fit, then scrape. It would have been easy to just mill that out, and then float it on a couple of blocks with screws. He doesn't work that way. Same thing with the butt stock. It was a walnut blank, that he cut until it looked like a butt stock, then spent a day inletting. At my request he did glass bed it, since it's going to be a 45-3 1/4, and loaded like it's a 458 Lott.
It's called craftsmanship, and you either appreciate it or you don't. Doesn't mean you are an elitist or a goober. Esthetics in different models appeal or not to people.

Gawd, that seem tedious to me. BTW, I.S., are you a salesman? At last count, it seems that my rifles are about evenly divided between those that have a walnut stock and those with synthetic. I like them about equal, for some of the same reasons, but neither cause me to think about tits, natural or synthetically enhanced, or other related warm and fuzzy things. I don't get off looking at the grain and color of walnut. I do think about the hunts and outdoor experiences I've had and plan on with the rifles, and for that the only difference is the weather or conditions I expect to see, so the walnut goes when it's not likely to rain, or I can clean and dry it right away, and the fiberglass is good to go in all conditions.

Once, I had a FN in 7x57 which had a custom stock that was obviously inletted by the method you described. It was fantastically hand inletted, very close, and with no glass bedding. The layout, color and figure in the walnut was super good, and the checkering flawless. The rifle had a metal work problem that I had fixed, but because of that I got a good deal on it. After it was all repared, and ready to go, somehow I got a dent in the wood, then I discovered another, even though I was always very careful with it. I never even mounted a scope, or took it to the range. Soon, I figured that was the way it was going to be with this rifle, so I sold it, doubled my money, and bought at least five CZ 550 medium rifles with the proceeds, one of which is a 7x57. Somehow, I haven't worried about small dents in those walnut stocks. Such a difference.

Since then, I've spent some $ getting them all tweaked, bedded, etc., so the proceeds from the sale of the one custom rifle was enough for the out-of-the-box cz 550s mentioned, but not the tweaking, which BTW, is almost all profit margin for the gunsmith.

KB

quote:

.....he was inletting the fore end with a scraper and lampblack. Ever watch that? He taps the fore end on the octagon section of the barrel until it binds. They he slides it off and sees where the lampblacked barrel flats have rubbed. He works with the scraper taking shavings maybe twenty or thirty thousandths thick off. Then black, then fit, then scrape.

This is the right way to do it even with a synthetic stock. My gunsmith does the same and I've watched him do my target rifles. When the rifle is fired, you don't want the forend slapping the barrel.

If you want to make double-sure of your no-wander forearm bedding, a good trick is to mill or drill one or more thin vertical trenches in the barrel channel, full length of the forearm, and then fill with glass. I use a milling cutter in my drill press but a drill works OK if you even up the sides afterwards, the trench(es) will be visible whenever the metal is removed from the wood and you'll want it to be at least reasonably neat & tidy-looking.

FYI we were taught that Myrtlewood was perhaps the greatest warpage offender; I've never worked it but one of my classmates used this method to stabilize his Myrtelwood forearm and it appeared to work well. FWIW.
Regards, Joe

For me, part of the appeal of walnut is knowing someone put part of themselves into the work.
Synthetic is looking past the rifle to the task. They have all the charm of a staple gun.
Good walnut lends itself to an involvement on the owners' part. Looking for that "just right" coloration and figure is very enjoyable to me.

I can imagine myself looking thru forty or fifty shades of gray paint, agonizing whether to go with the squiggly cobweb looking stuff in a clock or counter-clockwise pattern. Do I want the speckles a shade lighter, or darker. Molded in checkering, arrgghhhhh the myriad decisions.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

.....he was inletting the fore end with a scraper and lampblack. Ever watch that? He taps the fore end on the octagon section of the barrel until it binds. They he slides it off and sees where the lampblacked barrel flats have rubbed. He works with the scraper taking shavings maybe twenty or thirty thousandths thick off. Then black, then fit, then scrape.

This is the right way to do it even with a synthetic stock. My gunsmith does the same and I've watched him do my target rifles. When the rifle is fired, you don't want the forend slapping the barrel.

This is the only way I've ever done it. And the amount removed by chisels is 0.020" to 0.030" but the amount I remove with my scrapers is closer to 0.002" to 0.003".

IOW it takes a long time and yes, I put something of myself into every stock.
Regards, Joe

At last count, it seems that my rifles are about evenly divided between those that have a walnut stock and those with synthetic. I like them about equal, for some of the same reasons, but neither cause me to think about tits, natural or synthetically enhanced, or other related warm and fuzzy things. I don't get off looking at the grain and color of walnut. I do think about the hunts and outdoor experiences I've had and plan on with the rifles, and for that the only difference is the weather or conditions I expect to see, so the walnut goes when it's not likely to rain, or I can clean and dry it right away, and the fiberglass is good to go in all conditions.


I couldn't agree more. I'm a hunter not a poser........

But I will take it further. If I know I'm travelling by air. Synthetic only.

All my rifles are set up the same way (I have synthetic doubles in all calibers). Same action (Pre War, Pre 64 and ONE gulp classic, same LOP, same trigger pull- I can't tell the difference between them. Frankly I'm tempted not to checker my next wooden rifle, see no use for it and found zero difference in the field.

Walnut, poser? From a man who owns both a Ferrari (convertible to boot, how practical is that?) and an Aston Martin?

Say it ain't so.

Wouldn't you be better off with a Ford Taurus? Much more practical, 1/20th the cost and twice the gas mileage. Not to mention a back seat and a trunk.

sign me

Befuddled

quote:

At last count, it seems that my rifles are about evenly divided between those that have a walnut stock and those with synthetic. I like them about equal, for some of the same reasons, but neither cause me to think about tits, natural or synthetically enhanced, or other related warm and fuzzy things. I don't get off looking at the grain and color of walnut. I do think about the hunts and outdoor experiences I've had and plan on with the rifles, and for that the only difference is the weather or conditions I expect to see, so the walnut goes when it's not likely to rain, or I can clean and dry it right away, and the fiberglass is good to go in all conditions.


I couldn't agree more. I'm a hunter not a poser........

But I will take it further. If I know I'm travelling by air. Synthetic only.

All my rifles are set up the same way (I have synthetic doubles in all calibers). Same action (Pre War, Pre 64 and ONE gulp classic, same LOP, same trigger pull- I can't tell the difference between them. Frankly I'm tempted not to checker my next wooden rifle, see no use for it and found zero difference in the field.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

At last count, it seems that my rifles are about evenly divided between those that have a walnut stock and those with synthetic. I like them about equal, for some of the same reasons, but neither cause me to think about tits, natural or synthetically enhanced, or other related warm and fuzzy things. I don't get off looking at the grain and color of walnut. I do think about the hunts and outdoor experiences I've had and plan on with the rifles, and for that the only difference is the weather or conditions I expect to see, so the walnut goes when it's not likely to rain, or I can clean and dry it right away, and the fiberglass is good to go in all conditions.


I couldn't agree more. I'm a hunter not a poser........

But I will take it further. If I know I'm travelling by air. Synthetic only.

All my rifles are set up the same way (I have synthetic doubles in all calibers). Same action (Pre War, Pre 64 and ONE gulp classic, same LOP, same trigger pull- I can't tell the difference between them. Frankly I'm tempted not to checker my next wooden rifle, see no use for it and found zero difference in the field.

+1

How sad. I don't see why you guys don't use Savage 110s or AK-47s, they're LOTS cheaper and then with the money you saved you could afford a bunch of extra hunts!

How sad. No aesthetic sense whatever, it appears. I pity you, you're missing SO MUCH!

But, different strokes....
Regards, Joe

Why not have a rifle with both types of stocks? Is there any problem switching stocks?

Rich. I drive my cars also- I just happen to have a lot of them. They don't just sit in the garage. My '08 S 550 has 150,000 mi- I drive a lot. And I also drive my synthetic stocked F 350 crew cab diesel long bed.

JDS. Dude I got the $ I just spend it on function not form. Saving $- I just don't believe in nigged out BS- quarter ribs,iron sights, integral nonsense, faggoty fleur de lis and ribbons- pure useless crap.

Again, I'm a hunter not a poser....registered in '04, 458 posts......I spend more time hunting than bullshitting....errrr typing.

When I spend $5-10K on a rifle you bet the bitch'll shoot. I just don't care what it looks like.

And you don't want to get me started on the ACGG. They make purty rifles, but I'll take an Echols, Holehan, Miller, Sisk over one any day. function over form. Look at their prices, they ain't cheap I know I got 2 Holehens coming.