Regardless of the platform, if you had to chose one cartridge to outfit the military what would it be? Please keep in mind, controlability, ease of training (recoil), knockdown power and effective range. Please, feel free to list all current, past and prototype rounds.

I suppose you can separate the cartridges into two groups, bolt gun and autoloaders, however, this is not about the best or worst battle rifles. Just the best battle rifle round.

Oh boy, there is no such thing as a proper answer to this.

One cartridge? For bolts and semi autos and full-autos? 7.62 Nato (aka .308)

Best semi-auto cartridge? 7.62x39 Makes for the best overall assault cartridge there is/was.

I'm still thinking this one over. Where I get stuck is in thinking about the "troops" that are going to use it.

Are they a professional well-trained, well-organized, well-supplied army? Or are they a bunch of poor kids just out of high school who've been drafted and given a total of 6 weeks training, including soldiering, riflery, et. al., before being shipped to some hell-hole like Korea was?

Or, are they an assortment of mujihadeen? Some were raised with a rifle in their crib, and others haven't even had the opportunity of going to the most elementary school, let alone being fluent in the basics of mechanics and physical science such as that involved in mastery of the rifle.

A cartridge which may be the "best" for one group MIGHT just be be a miserable, almost worthless handicap for the others, in terms of optimizing their fighting potential.

I am suprised at the lack of responses. As many "one cartridge for big game" threads that pop up and seem to last for an eternity, I figured this topic would at least generate some fun discussion.

What I had in mind was, if you had to outfit a modern military force, like the USA, Great Britan or Isreal, what would be the ideal cartridge to outfit the infantry with? It is not an easily answered question, however a realistic question that our military leaders must ponder from time to time. Surely there have been some real blunders, like the .30 carbine. As well as the great ones like the 30-06 and the 5.56 which are on opposite ends of the spectrum, however both have served well.

I also wonder if such cartridges as the 6.8 Spc will go down in history as a fine round, which appears to me, to be a close cousin to the 7.62X39. Anyway, I suppose there is no "perfect" cartridge, for big game or the military, although the military must standardize for obvious reasons, where big game hunters can be more flexible.

6.5x55, of course. Mild recoil, excellent penetration and long range accuracy. Also, as you specified cartridge, not rifle, the Swede in a modern action is a phenomenal performer.

Eric

Easy, 7.62x39. Either AK or SKS. Simonov had it down on this round. It's a man killer and it functions in his actions flawlessly (ususally). Small arms means "man and smaller" to me.

30-06. Still the best in my book

I'd like to say .308 without reservation, but that won't fit all uses. You have to take into account the platform. For bolts and semi autos, the 7.62 nato gets the nod (I really like the M1A/M14 in a pistol grip stock package). Same cartridge for true medium+ MGs, at least until you get to the need for a 50 BMG or larger round.

If you are talking about a single-soldier selective fire battle/assault rifle, there's no way you can effectively shoot a 7.62 nato on burst or full auto in a 7-8 lb rifle. You'd have to go to something with a lower recoil impulse. The 7.62x39 doesn't seem to have the needed longer range potential, so I'd vote for something like the 6.5 Grendel.

quote:

The 7.62x39 doesn't seem to have the needed longer range potential, so I'd vote for something like the 6.5 Grendel.

I would second your choice if we have to make a quick decision right now.
The 123gr Lapua Scenar bullet is very popular in the 6.5 X 284 for Benchrest shooting.
It is a precision made bullet with a high BC.
This bullet achieves 2620 fps in the Grendel in 20-inch barrels.
The good thing is that this bullet is still supersonic at 1000 yards @ 1222 fps.
On March 6, 2006, Arne Brennan achieved a witnessed 1.198" group at 660 yards.

Warrior

I would have to seriously consider the 276 Pederson as a "all purpose" cartridge. Another one to consider would be the British designed 7 x 49 (280/30 UK) round.
Both are very similar in performance and OAL, with the Pederson design being smaller in base diameter (enough smaller that a 20% increase in "same length" mag capacity would be expected).

30-06 or 8x57

7.5 French

Bolt action for long range my choice would be
The .30-06'.

Semi auto it would be the .308 Fully auto it would be the 7.62x39.

Cal30 1906

Anyone ever heard of the 7X57 Mauser??????

mousegun

"...outfit the military"

That is a very, very wide range of uses for small arms. It is my opinion based on many years in infantry, cavalry and SF that the "one weapon cartridge/weapon" concept is a dog that won't hunt. However, for infantry and other combat troops the 7.62 NATO and 7.62x39 would be a good combination covering GP machine guns, sniper rifles, designated marksman rifles and assault rifles.

Have to ask having used one in combat (actually used it not just carried it); it's tactial missuse may have been a blunder but how was the .30 Carbine cartridge a "blunder"? Please don't tell me about the thundering chineses hordes that took ten mags of ammo at 500 yards to stop them or the old sea story of the Marine who shot 30 rounds at a charging jap and he didn't go down 'till his buddy uncorked his M1 Garand. Just facts if you don't mind.

Larry Gibson

It seems to me that this comes back to the old argument between " aimed fire" and "saturation fire" -and what to use for each.. When wars were fought in Europe, the doctrine of "aimed fire" ruled. (Even so fine ordnance people as the Germans who invented some of the finest fully automatic weapons ever made up to that time {like the Bergman MP 40} took their infantry into WW2 with a bolt action rifle. The American Garand was a blessing bestowed on us in comparison -but even the Garand was an aimed fire weapon. "Saturation fire", I am told became a standard way to use rifle fire power in Vietnam - because there was so much jungle and close quarters firing. I was told that a 12 gauge shotgun was popular among some of our guys. (Designated, of course, by the bureaucrats as SPEW - Special Purpose Emergency Weapon} I guess, in my longwinded fashion, I'm trying to say that there can't be one single caliber (or firearm of any sort) that a superpower with people around the world in all kinds of geography can use perfectly suited to the guys using it - and not handicap the people who have to use the weapon in another part of the world. (I do think that so far as a service pistol is concerned that it was a terrible mistake to drop the 1911A1,45 ACP, Colt's pistol - but that's just me!)

The best for what?

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:
Anyone ever heard of the 7X57 Mauser??????

Yea, I thought about it, but think the 6.8 SPC and .308Win are better choices. They fit in a wider variety of firearms, are physically smaller and just as deadly. The 7X57 and .30-06 would have beat it out, but there are only a few bolt guns in my imaginary army.

Terry

6.5x50 Jap.

While not the most powerful cartridge on the planet would work well for a number of circumstances and platforms. Mild enough recoil.

If we're talking about the best "all-around" (sniper, MG, battle rifle, etc) cartridge, it's got to be the 7.62 NATO. The arguement can be made that there are better cartridges for unique situations, but as for an all-purpose round, this one's hard to beat.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
Oh boy, there is no such thing as a proper answer to this.

One cartridge? For bolts and semi autos and full-autos? 7.62 Nato (aka .308)

Best semi-auto cartridge? 7.62x39 Makes for the best overall assault cartridge there is/was.

There is no good answer to this - but I'll go out in left field- either the .280 British or the .276 Pederson, neither of which ever became anyone's official cartridge!

I misread the question - thought it was the best cartridge for the time, i.e./ when it was introduced. Based on that, I stand by the 7x57 Mauser - certainly nothing existed that would match it in 1893! Only close competitor would be the 8x50 Lebel (8x50R) which was the first smokeless gunpowder cartridge to be made and adopted by any country, this being adopted in I believe 1885 or 86 - years ahead of anyone else. And just for the record, the 7.5X54 French round is not too bad a cartridge today.
Now for all-time, all-use, the 7.62X51 NATO (.308 Winc.) has no equal, in my opinion.

I second the 7x57. Flat trajectory, mild pressure and deep penetration with the 175's.

.45 A.C.P.

25 WSSM

The 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher Schoenauer.

Give it a 125 to 130 grs Spitzer bullet and it´s the perfect Military cartridge!

H

P.S.: and, like it or not:

the 9 mm. The Parabellum.

I was mistaken on this subject. I miss took this as best over all not beat rifle cartrige. I picked the .45 A.C.P., as over-all. Not best rifle. For this I would go with the 7.62 Nato.

ar 15 6.5 grendel
ar 10 260 rem

In my ultra short military career, we were told it was better to wound the enemy than kill him. It takes a couple of guys with a shovel to dispose of a corpse, but it ties up a hell of a lot of resources looking after wounded soldiers.
My own thought would differ. I'd settle for something in the .308 class, but then, I can shoot and am not afraid of a little recoil.
Grizz

I know this thread is O-L-D, but I want to throw in a strange, but sensible choice, the 7.35mm Carcano. In a modern, semi-auto or full-auto weapon, it would between the 7.62x39 and the 7.62 NATO. Powerful enough to make it better than the Russian round, yet more manageable than the NATO round. It was always handicapped by the Carcano rifle. A stronger weapon would allow it to be loaded to it's full potential.

tom

Everybody got it right from the French 7.5x 38 to the 7.62 CETME NATO , the British .280 having been the best possible choice if US did not make the wrong choices with both the M 14, the AR 15 and the 5.56mm.

The best possible choice after WW2 in my (not so) humble opinion?

an AR 10 using a round having a diameter ranging from .270 to .308 and a case length from 40 to 45mm.

Eventually we will wind up with a shorter version of the .276 Pederson or the 6.5 Carcano.

7.35 Carcano: http://ammoguide.com/?catid=422

It does look like it has potential as a combat round. If they necked it down to a 7mm or 6.5mm bullet, they could get higher velocities out of it. As it is, the velocity for a 123-grain FMJ is only about 2350fps...

God packs a 30-06

Moses likes the .308 Win.

Jesus carries a .45 ACP.

6.5x55 really stands out, it was far ahead of its time. Its' lack of battlefield use makes it an obscure round to most people. 7.5x55 also stands out. GP11 ammo, standard military ammo all is match grade FMJ and with the 174gr projectile more than capible of long range shooting. In there designed weapons both have mild recoil. I had the opportunity to fire a BAR chambered in 6.5x55. Unlike the 30.06 version it was easy to control on full auto. It was a late 1930's contract rifle.

The .30-06 was the best of all time, IMHO.

But the 7.62x51mm is the heir apparent.

8X57 from which ALL standard .473" case head cartridges where designed from.

That includes the 7X57, 30-06 & 308 & all the offspring of said cartridges.

The 8X57 was the 1st.

30 rem. >140gr.

276 Pedersen...without the lubrication issues!

A strong case can be made that a 6.5 Grendel loaded with the right bullet is superior to the 7.62x39 or the 5.56x45 in assault rifles and SAWs and does as well as the 7.62x51 Nato or 7.62x54R in sniper rifles and LMG/GPMGs.