Thank you in advance for the assistance. I am close to taking the plunge for my first DR and I have chosen Searcy to make the rifle and have decided to have it made on his 500 and 470 frame (This will not restrict the caliber of a second set of barrels)but have not selected the caliber. This rifle will go to Africa with me in 2009 and hopefully have a run at Buffalo and elephant. I was considering having the rifle made in 450/400 for shootability and ease of practice but with the exception of an increased SD of the bullet I do not know what I will gain from my .375 except the ability of a faster second shot. I have gone through the books and the recommendations but would like to get some input from those who shoot many .40 calibers regularly. Factors that I am considering is the availability of factory components for ammunition but I also don't care to get pummeled every time I squeeze the trigger. In reality I will get to do this one time and want to gather as much advise to make the best choice. Thanks again

The way I see it is that choosing a preferred cartridge, you consider two or three things.
Availability of factory ammo for a particular caliber that is powerful enough for your stated goals. Only one qualifies and that's the 470NE, hands down. Both Federal and Norma make factory ammo in 20-paks. The 500NE is about 2-3 steps up in power but suffers from the lack of available factory ammo. Only Norma makes some and only in 10-paks. Of course you could get ammo from Europe and that's waaaay expensive. You'd have to handload both but at least in a 470, you can get factory ammo, whereas with the 500 you have to handload only. The last factor is "I JUST GOTTA HAVE IT!"

Thanks for the input have you done anything to mitigate the 80 plus ft pounds of recoil for practice sessions. I realize at the moment of truth recoil is never felt but building familiarity at the range with that large a caliber you are going to feel it.

Well, that depends on the individual. What's the biggest gun/cartridge combo that you've fired? If you're only used to 375 level recoil, you just have to work harder at enduring it. If you're used to 458Lott level of recoil, you're just about there. After you've gotten used to the recoil, you can handload some cast stuff and/or use 475 pistol bullets just for range time. There's an article on loading cast bullets on the African Hunter site. http://www.african-hunter.com

Recoil: I use a scoped O/U 9.3 x 74R as my "light African" rifle and a .470 DR. Recoil is no problem, BALANCE and FIT are vital, much more importent than max weight, my Vaughan .470 is 11.5 ibs and considered to heavy by many, but she fits me well and is a delight to shoot, personaly I wouldn't have it any other way. Make sure your DR is an excellent fit, then practice, practice, practice and keep fit. I only weigh 160 lbs and have shot up to 36 rds of .470 in one session and recoil is no problem. A light rifle and a poor fit will make the recoil feel worse than it is. I have carried my Vaughan in Africa and found the weight no problem, only if hunting in a very high humidity would I consider the Vaughan heavy and I hunt on foot as much as I can. I find the recoil from a heavy .470 NE to be a big push and prefable to the recoil from a sharp light rifle in, for example, 7 mm Rem Mag.

John

Recoil from the Rifle side a .375 and a .300 RUM would be the extent of my familiarity. I know it is not a reasonable comparison but I do shoot heavy loads from my O/U all through waterfowl season. As far as the rifle weight I believe the Searcy comes in around 10.5 lbs

quote:

As far as the rifle weight I believe the Searcy comes in around 10.5 lbs

Are you talking about the .500 or .470? If that is the weight you want for a .500, I will say that the recoil will probably be stout. I had a Merkel in .500 NE that weighed 10 lbs and it was a bear to shoot. If you can, get together with some guys who have DRs and shoot different ones to see which caliber and weight works best for you. I know Butch can build the rifle to come in at tthe weight you want.

When I first Spoke with Butch I was leaning toward the 450/400. I then talked about getting a second set of barrels later on and was considering a 470 he said that was not a problem but that we would have to start off on the larger frame of a 500 or 470 to build the 450/400 to accept a larger caliber down the road. It would have made the initial gun heavier but knocked out alot of recoil.

I would be interested in having the opportunity to try a couple of the different rifles before hand but my hunting buddies are Bolt action shooters and have not had an opportunity.

Highbrass:

I'm in northern VA, just outside of DC. My father is in Philadelphia, where my DRs are.

Retreever, a friend of mine, fellow DR shooter and poster here is north of Philadelphia. There are also a few other DR shooters in the area.

We should try to get a shoot together somewhere for you to try them out. My Francotte .470 is at Champlins getting the LOP extended, but my .577 NE by Searcy is in Philly.

That would be great, I would like to get my final order into Butch sometime in November for delivery next year this time. That will give me enough time to get ready for my July 09 hunt. Traveling to Philadelphia is a pretty quick trip up 95 for me and any help would be appreciated.

Technique to control a big boomer... It works..

Highbrass welcome aboard...
Mike

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=745103114#745103114

First off, yes, the availability of loading components is important in caliber choice for a double rifle. Conversely, if you feel the need to base your choice on the availability of factory ammunition, stick with a bolt rifle. Few doubles will ever be at anything like their best with factory ammunition. At $75/box, .450/.400 is the clear winner anyway. At $290 to $350 a box for .470 - that's so far beyond absurd that it's limited availability is a non-issue.

If you're at all sensitive to recoil, the .470 isn't the best choice. Since you're considering the .400, you're on the right track.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
First off, yes, the availability of loading components is important in caliber choice for a double rifle. Conversely, if you feel the need to base your choice on the availability of factory ammunition, stick with a bolt rifle. Few doubles will ever be at anything like their best with factory ammunition. At $75/box, .450/.400 is the clear winner anyway. At $290 to $350 a box for .470 - that's so far beyond absurd that it's limited availability is a non-issue.

If you're at all sensitive to recoil, the .470 isn't the best choice. Since you're considering the .400, you're on the right track.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I agree 100% with Mark on this one! If I were going to get a 450/400NE 3", I would get it in a 400 action, and not worry about an extra barrel set in 470NE! Build the 450/400Ne 3" in a 10 lb rifle, and never look back, then if you want a larger chambering, pick up a Merkel 470NE double used later!

A 10 lb, 450/4003" double, and a little light 8.5 lb, 9.3X74R double with a QD scope are a fine pair for both light, and heavy game in Africa. If you think the 450/400 is too small for ele, then a 10 lb 450NE 3 1/4", or 450#2 NE will do anything the 470NE will do, and allow a lighter rifle.

I have several double rifles, but my "go-to" pair are a Merkel 140-2 Safari express, 470NE, and a Merkel 140E, 9.3X74R double rifle, and this combo works fine, but I would far rather have a 10lb 450/400 3" for the top end!

Whatever rifle you get, you will need to hand load to get the best your rifle can produce, and all you need worry about is components, not factory ammo. As Mark says, most doubles don't shot that well with factory anyway!

Good luck which ever way you decide!

Thanks for the posts and input on the availability of components. Everyone has been helpfull and I will take it all into consideration. The work I am planning on using a double for will generally fall into the 50 yard or less category. Under ideal conditions any of the major calibers should suffice as I had no problems with my .375 this year in some tight cover, just need to place the bullet in the right spot. I will let everyone know which way I ended up and please keep forwarding your reccomendations.

Thanks Mike, I will try it with my .375 when it gets back from the factory...

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Technique to control a big boomer... It works..

Highbrass welcome aboard...
Mike

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=745103114#745103114

Mike,

I thought about your earlier post when I went to the range to shoot my new .470NE for the first time last Friday. Having never shot anything over a .416 REM I was ready to get rocked a little. I used your technique and and am pleased to report that the .470 was actually fairly pleasant to shoot. Thanks for the tip.

Doug

Highbrass-

I'd shoot a 470 before buying a 500. The felt recoil on the 500 will be significantly higher than on that of a 470. Definitely work your way up on recoil, and remember that the noise won't hurt you.

Highbrass,

I live outside of DC and do much of my shooting at one of my hunting clubs near Easton. You are welcome to shoot my 458wm Marcel Thys double rifle. Recoil is similar to the 470NE. I am down most weekends and can bring along my rifle in a couple of weeks when I get it back from stock refinishing.

Let me know if you are interested.

BTW, I would recomend the 470. Especially if elephants are in your future. No reason in hell to carry the weight but not the oomph with a heavy 450/400. If your going to carry the weight, carry the oomph, aka, knockdown power, stopping power. And contrary to internet opinion, there is a lot to be said for both; not every shot will be the internet perfect shot.

JPK

I would appreciate that, Once waterfowl season starts I am on the shore most weekends and that would work out great.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Highbrass,

I live outside of DC and do much of my shooting at one of my hunting clubs near Easton. You are welcome to shoot my 458wm Marcel Thys double rifle. Recoil is similar to the 470NE. I am down most weekends and can bring along my rifle in a couple of weeks when I get it back from stock refinishing.

Let me know if you are interested.

BTW, I would recomend the 470. Especially if elephants are in your future. No reason in hell to carry the weight but not the oomph with a heavy 450/400. If your going to carry the weight, carry the oomph, aka, knockdown power, stopping power. And contrary to internet opinion, there is a lot to be said for both; not every shot will be the internet perfect shot.

JPK

Here I am, possibly exposing myself to the scorn of more experienced DR owners/shooters: you need two DRs in my opinion. There is a Chapuis 9,3x74R double for sale for about $4500 shipped and insured to your FFL holder in the classsifieds. Buy that and be shooting it in a week. Ammunition is also much less expensive, and you will enjoy working up loads for it and regulating it. Order a .500 NE 3" from Searcy, and have your two double battery ready to go to Africa. I did own a Krieghoff DR in .500 3" for several years and recoil in a ten pound rifle was very moderate.

Rich
DRSS
KNowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Would love to have two but will have to settle for one or I might just end up with 1/2... leaning toward the 470 at this time, but still have not committed.

JPK and Highbrass:

If you guys are interested, I would love see if we couldn't get a local DR shoot together.

My Francotte is with JJ for get the LOP increased, but I have the .577.

Maybe in a few weeks when the guns are back we can set something up???

Also, Highbrass, if you send in your deposit to Butch, you don't have to have the final decision on the chambering you want right away. At least that was the case when we ordered ours three years ago.

577NE
A DR Shoot would be great, I belong to a club with a nice range just across the PA line about 20 minutes from Baltimore. Once deer season (rifle) is underway should not be a problem.

I believe you would be correct about Butch he has been great to deal with so far and the other posts seem to support he is out there for the long haul.

I still have 2 measurements to make from his fitting form before I send it over should have that done by the weekend

I have one of the 10 1/2 pound Merkel 500NE's 577NE was speaking of. It can be a fierce gun to shoot for someone not accustomed to heavy recoil. We like it though, don't we Paul.

quote:

I have one of the 10 1/2 pound Merkel 500NE's 577NE was speaking of. It can be a fierce gun to shoot for someone not accustomed to heavy recoil. We like it though, don't we Paul.

You are incorrect, sir...we LOVE it!

If it were a little heavier though, it would be more pleasant to shoot, but the recoil did not hinder me at all.

Highbrass,

Now that I just received my www.kalispelcaseline.com double sized, take down, shotgun case

I am sending my very recently acquired 450/400 3 1/4 inch vintage Osborne built SxS to JJP

for some "tweaking". Otherwise I'd like to join in. If you are NOT talking about shooting a

good number of elephant or rhino I vote for a 10.25 pound [or slightly less] 450/400. If you get

the 3" version Hornady is marketing ammo. Obviously 400 NItro Express' position on the point

of factory vs. hand loaded ammo is dead on. If you can be quite comfortable with the much big-

ger recoil of the 470 class choices and you want a DEDICATED elephant/rhino rifle then go there.

Remember, there's a law "on the books" and sparadically enforced that prohibits taking ammo

over .500 inch in diameter out of the USA! There's a recent thread on this topic and new_guy

had posted very good info. I also encourage you to look really hard at vintage British rifles and

the www.heymusa.com, [new_guy's company] 450/400 3 inch caliber double. It's weight is just

right in my opinion at the usual ten or less pounds.

Hibrass, 577, Big Five Jack,

We should all get together and have a shoot. Tim Carney, who posts here and/or on Nitro Express lives in the DC area too. I don't kmow him but we ought to make contact and see if he wants to join us.

We can try a shooting range that will let us shoot freehand or my club, whatever works, but we really should give it a go.

I have two DR's and neither are here presently, though the Thys should be here soon. 577's two would be great, but even "only" the 577 would be a treat. Lets get together and do this!!

JPK

Another bit of advice that may or may not have been mentioned already; make sure that whatever cal or rifle you order fits well. Recoil on a big bore double that doesn't fit can be a bitch. I know. I have a 470 chapuis that was made for someone about 6 inches shorter than me with arms that would hang down to my elbos. It's more uncomfortable to shoot than my 458 Lott that does fit. I too will be sending my 470 to J.J. for some tweeking.

I also like the idea of the big double paired with the 9.3x74r. I've got one in a chapuis that looks pretty neet sitting next to my 470 chapuis. A good safari rifle combo if I can find a 9.3 load that will shoot accurately enough at 200 yards.

just more pradal I guess but I have used the 375 and 400 on elephants. I a comfortable with the 400. I really do think that if you get your searcy in 400 you will be very happy.

I just picked up 60 rounds of hornady factory 400 for less than the cost of one box of 470 ammo. The recoil in the 400 is not entirely friendly but is very manageable and your second shot can be very quick.

The bottom line of all this is that it is all for fun. All rifles from 375 on up with good bullets work just fine. Get what you want.

The only thing that I would disagree with you about it the statement that you will only get to do this one time. Odds are that once you get a good double in your hands you will just have to find a way to get another. they are worse than potato chips

Are two barrel set double rifles really a good idea? I don't own a double so it's pure curiosity on my part but if a 470 NE is made to balance perfectly for you, is it possible to have a second set of barrels made and have the exact same responsiveness, balance point, weight, etc?

The aluminum hard case is great and very simmilar to one I purchased from Cabelas about 10 years ago. It has some scratches and beauty marks but has held up well overall and I have never had a problem with the contents. One sugestion I might make is to have an outer case cover made. I had one made by a canvas maker out if heavy vinyl that had a thin padded lining which has helped to keep it in tact.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Highbrass,

Now that I just received my www.kalispelcaseline.com double sized, take down, shotgun case

I am sending my very recently acquired 450/400 3 1/4 inch vintage Osborne built SxS to JJP

for some "tweaking". Otherwise I'd like to join in. If you are NOT talking about shooting a

good number of elephant or rhino I vote for a 10.25 pound [or slightly less] 450/400. If you get

the 3" version Hornady is marketing ammo. Obviously 400 NItro Express' position on the point

of factory vs. hand loaded ammo is dead on. If you can be quite comfortable with the much big-

ger recoil of the 470 class choices and you want a DEDICATED elephant/rhino rifle then go there.

Remember, there's a law "on the books" and sparadically enforced that prohibits taking ammo

over .500 inch in diameter out of the USA! There's a recent thread on this topic and new_guy

had posted very good info. I also encourage you to look really hard at vintage British rifles and

the www.heymusa.com, [new_guy's company] 450/400 3 inch caliber double. It's weight is just

right in my opinion at the usual ten or less pounds.

Here ya go HB! Here is your new double rifle!
Heym 450/400 3inch 26" Barrels

Good work Rusty!

Thanks for the Post Rusty, that is a sweet DR. I know that they have a great reputation and they do have representation in the US. Their price point is a bit higher than Searcy, is the balance or handeling that much different? I am only asking because I do not know. Thanks

you can buy overpriced factory 470 ammo or do a bit of shopping.

check out superior ammunition for one.

best deal i found was glen anderson (aardvark ammunition ) in florida. 20 rd box of 470 loads in new brass $90.00 at april tulsa show.

prices may have gone up a bit but not that much. call him at 630 957 7999 and tell him tom from ogca told you about him. he must load 80 - 100 calibers .

quote:

Originally posted by Highbrass regarding HEYM:
...I know that they have a great reputation and they do have representation in
the US. Their price point is a bit higher than Searcy, is the balance or handeling
that much different? I am only asking because I do not know. Thanks

HB,

The HEYM Pro Hunter comes with cocking indicators, intercepting sears, choice of

oval or American looking cheek piece. and [I think] articulated forward trigger for

the basic price. Call www.heymusa.com and get a price and compare it to the Searcy

DELUXE, [much engraving] NOT the Searcy Pro Hunter. Again, unless it's a dedi-

cated elephant and rhino rifle I urge you to strongly consider the 450/400, preferably

the 3" but don't "duck" a 3 1/4" if it's sound mechanically.

Thanks Jack, is that model that you were referring to the 88 safari or the 88PH. The model from Searcy that I am leaning toward is the basic PH model. I will check the pricing with Heym on Monday but from their inventory list I think they are going to run about 4K more than a searcy.

Highbrass.

Since this thread has been hijacked anyway, here is some info for you.
Heym 88B"PH" = $16,000.00

Searcy Classic = $15,000.00

Searcy PH Model(The Original PH) = $12,000.00

This seems like a pretty clear choice to me....
Compare the Heym PH to the Searcy Classic.( they are in the same price range) There is no comparison!!! What do you get for the extra $1000.00 Well lets see, no engraving, and some plain wood. In my opinion you made the best choice when you chose the Searcy!! A company that stands behind their products and it is american made! At $12000.00 the Searcy PH model is a great gun for the money.

h2o,

I submit that to get intercepting sears and an articulated forward trigger

in a Searcy you MUST order a Classic DELUXE or a regular DELUXE at the

MINIMUM. They cost thousands more than the Searcy PH or the basic CLASSIC.

They are, no doubt, prettier than HEYMs in the eyes of many I'd heard.

I do NOT recall SEARCY offering cocking indicators at all. He DOES use
bushed strikers [Heym does NOT ] and as of late SEARCY adds extra

strikers and bushings too [I think] with every new rifle. I also believe a

cleaning kit is part of the deal too from Searcy and his rifle will in deed

have more engraving than the HEYM PH model. I am a fan of interceptors as they

add a measure of safety, [so do cocking indicators] and interceptors can allow

for a little lighter trigger pull. The Heym also uses the Greener third fast-

ener, Searcy uses NONE, reporting that they are not needed with the design and

quality of steel which he uses. You can ask for a rib extention of the type he

uses in his 577 and larger rifles for a $500 extra charge based on my last talk

with Searcy. I just like what you get for the money overall with HEYM when look-

at both, them and SEARCY. I wish Butch would offer a Webley "A&WC" clone action

as one of his choices. I hope we hear no more tales of "quality control" quest-

ions about his products. The rifles have good weights for the calibers chosen, HEYM

often sounds to be a bit "light" with .45 caliber and larger choices. I don't love

the Greener 3rd bite, but I'd rather that than none. I wish HEYM would offer bushed

strikers. In the end, THERE AIN'T NOTHIN' LIKE A WELL KEPT AND MODERATELY TO

LIGHTLY USED VINTAGE BRITSH SxS RIFLE FROM A RESPECTED MAKER. That's why
I hunted for over two years for one that I could financially get into.

Big5jack
You are correct with most (but not all) of your info. But the point is simple. Highbrass stated that he had chosen a Searcy in the PH model. This is a $12000.00 rifle. It does not have intercepter sears or cocking indicators or an articulated front trigger (the trigger is an option). However all Searcy rifles now have a rib extension. As far as the intercepting sears and cocking indicators. If a rifle is properly made these are not really necessary. In my opinion they are mainly for marketing. But this is best left for another thread which I will start in the future. The Heym is $4000.00 more. If you are talking overall price then you should add the Searcy Deluxe into the picture. It is $18000.00 and has all of the bells and whistles. Back to the original question. The 450-400 is a great round but do not rule out the 470. You can load the 470 with light lead loads for practice and ammo for the 470 is available almost anywhere.