quote:

Rusty,

I've tried to be pleasant enough. You keep pushing. Let me make it clear - your opinion is worth your experience.

Wow, I was beginning to get the idea that the only opinion that mattered here was yours. Thanks for setting that straight! Those of us who like to carry heavy rifles can continue to do so without offending your good nature!

Did not mean to stir the pot with my comment, we were charged this year by a heard of cows this year in Zim and it was real enough. My original thread was not based on the fact that charges happen but those who will go out of their way to provoke one and risk themselves and a client in the process. I hope that overtime I will have had the good fortune to spend that much time in Africa. This will be my first trip for elephant, there is always something special about a first...

Highbrass it should be a wonderful experience. My life had been enriched many times over by having the good forutne to meet and become friends with those who love Africa. I think this quote pretty much says it for me.

"Africa is undoubtedly a most fascination wild mistress. She gets a tenacious hold on most persons; bewitching, magnetic, that is almost irresistible, and once experienced, is NEVER lulled into forgetfulness."
May French Sheldon 1891

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

Rusty,

I've tried to be pleasant enough. You keep pushing. Let me make it clear - your opinion is worth your experience.

Wow, I was beginning to get the idea that the only opinion that mattered here was yours. Thanks for setting that straight! Those of us who like to carry heavy rifles can continue to do so without offending your good nature!

Rusty,

Pushing some more, eh?

Your quote here above, "Those of us who like to carry heavy rifles can continue to do so..."

Hey, have at it. But where have you carried your rifle? From the home to the car, the car to the range? Tough hump.

Like I said, your opinion is worth your experience.

JPK

Only in South Africa. I hope this helps.

Highbrass,

Don't worry about stirring the pot. Every so often a worthwhile debate comes along here.

Too often it is side tracked when the "double rifle for its own sake" aficienados start having fainting spells when the "DG hunting with a double rifle, the best tool" crowd points out that some of the tenents and comandments of double rifle worship are suspect or just plain wrong.

It often turn this way with the oozing sarcasm from the "DR for its own sake" crowd followed by their fainting spells when there isn't immeadiate bowing at the alter of the British Boxlock Rifle.

If you really want to see a good example, try posting about using North Fork or GS Custom bullets in a double rifle!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Only in South Africa. I hope this helps.

Dodging the question, eh? Don't much like the answer yourself, eh?

JPK

quote:

Highbrass,

Don't worry about stirring the pot. Every so often a worthwhile debate comes along here.

Too often it is side tracked when the "double rifle for its own sake" aficienados start having fainting spells when the "DG hunting with a double rifle, the best tool" crowd points out that some of the tenents and comandments of double rifle worship are suspect or just plain wrong.

It often turn this way with the oozing sarcasm from the "DR for its own sake" crowd followed by their fainting spells when there isn't immeadiate bowing at the alter of the British Boxlock Rifle.

If you really want to see a good example, try posting about using North Fork or GS Custom bullets in a double rifle!

JPK

There was a question here?

Rusty,

No. The question was in my prior post. See it copied below.

JPK

quote:

But where have you carried your rifle? From the home to the car, the car to the range? Tough hump.

Including Ozhunter's shooting the carging cow, that makes for six members who have put down nine charging elephants while hunting maybe 75 or 80 elephants between us.

One interpretation of those numbers is that roughly 13% of elephant hunts result in needing to stop a charge by shooting to kill. No small incidence.

JPK

quote:

Gee, I guess that at the age of 50 when I carried a 10 lb. 450/400 all day in the African sun I should have known better?

quote:

Sorry, I forgot to mention we only hunted 10 days. I most certainly don't want to leave the impression that it was a 14 or 21 day hunt.

quote:

Only in South Africa. I hope this helps.

I thought I had answered all of your questions.
Please take time to read my answers to your previous questions.

If any of my answers are evasive or unclear to you, please let me know and I will try my best to clarify them for you.

Rusty,

I was under the impression, from your previous post, that you had hunted cape buffalo with your double rifle. Am I mistaken?

JPK

Rehijacking my original post with your experience resluting in 13% charges during an elephant hunt will the 450/400 be sufficient in that it maybe required as a stopper?

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Including Ozhunter's shooting the carging cow, that makes for six members who have put down nine charging elephants while hunting maybe 75 or 80 elephants between us.

One interpretation of those numbers is that roughly 13% of elephant hunts result in needing to stop a charge by shooting to kill. No small incidence.

JPK

No sir, you are not mistaken. I did hunt Cape Buffalo with Claude Kleynhans.
Mafigeni Safaris

Please contact Claude or Jill for information.

HB,

If you're going to think of nothing but a STOPPING RIFLE then call

Ken Owen Of Moscow, Tn. here in the USA and he'll build you an affordable

[19K or so] 577 or 600 NE. I went through every possible mental twist

and turn trying to decide on whose rifle to buy and what caliber and so on.

The question is, ARE LOOKING FOR A DOUBLE THAT IS A DEDICATED ELEPHANT/

RHINO RIFLE? Such a rifle would RARELY if ever be shot at smaller game. If

yes, 500 grn or heavier bullets, [.45 cal and up] ought to be your choice per

BUZZ CHARLTON, a very popular and experienced pro who specializes in elephant.

If you'll shoot a few elephant or just one or two and the rest will be BUFF

and light animals, go .41 cal or a little lighter. I think it takes much money

to honestly tell yourself that you can afford to kill between four and twenty

four elephant and rhino combined or a piece. I don't have that money and won't

unless God decides to do something big in my financial life. I picked a .41

cal for it's ability to do it all. It's not a 30-06 and not a 600 NE. But my elephant

will fall to it's bullet if I get my chance. Remember, guys with .50 cal and larger

rifles can be given a hard time about taking their ammo out of the U.S. due to a law

that is, IN FACT, on the books as of now!

Thanks Big 5, I am leaning toward the 450/400 and will not regret it and it will defiantely chase more buff than elephant unless the elephant get consideraby cheaper.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
HB,

If you're going to think of nothing but a STOPPING RIFLE then call

Ken Owen Of Moscow, Tn. here in the USA and he'll build you an affordable

[19K or so] 577 or 600 NE. I went through every possible mental twist

and turn trying to decide on whose rifle to buy and what caliber and so on.

The question is, ARE LOOKING FOR A DOUBLE THAT IS A DEDICATED ELEPHANT/

RHINO RIFLE? Such a rifle would RARELY if ever be shot at smaller game. If

yes, 500 grn or heavier bullets, [.45 cal and up] ought to be your choice per

BUZZ CHARLTON, a very popular and experienced pro who specializes in elephant. If

you'll shoot a few elephant or just one or two and the rest will be BUFF

and light animals, go .41 cal or a little lighter. I think it takes much money

to honestly tell yourself that you can afford to kill between four and twenty

four elephant and rhino combined or a piece. I don't have that money and won't

unless God decides to do something big in my financial life. I picked a .41

cal for it's ability to do it all. It's not a 30-06 and not a 600 NE. But my elephant

will fall to it's bullet if I get my chance. Remember, guys with .50 cal rifles can

be given a hard time about taking their ammo out of the U.S. due to a law on

the books as of now.

Highbrass:

A 450/400 bullet placed in the right spot will drop ANY African game...charging or not. It's when the fan gets brown that a bigger bore in the 450 up range gets the edge if your shot is a bit off the mark. The AVERAGE person headed to Africa would be much better served with the 400/416/404 range than a 500/577 class round.
Gut shoot a buff or elephant with a 577 and see what happens....or not...since I don't want to be the one that he/she finds when I come to camp after you leave.
You can't possibly go wrong with a proper 450/400....if I was ordering a build to fit...that's what I'd get...at about 10#.

Good luck.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Hibrass,

If you look hard, you can find elephant hunting that is almost price cmpetitive with buffalo. But the hunt will be for tuskless cows and not trophy bulls. Also on the less expensive side of elephant hunting is PAC or non-trophy bull hunting. These hunts will be less general bag and more specific to elephant hunting.

Tuskless hunting is huge fun. And typically more "adventutous" than bull hunting. Go back and review this thread and find 465H&H's comment about a big bore being needed more for lots of elelpant hunting and especially hnting in the jess for cows. I think NE 450 No.2's comment was along these lines when he said a 450/400 would be great for "one or two elephants."

FWIW, Ozhunter is moving from a 470 to a 450/400 Searcy much like the rifle you are ordering. You have heard NE 450 No.2's opinion that the 450/400 is the choice. Will has been happy with his 416 Taylor throwing 400 grains.

465H&H is a big bore fan, so is 500 Grains, so am I. I actually prefer the lightest cartridge of the three of us.

There you have it, split down the middle.

Garby's comment about the 416-404-450/400 vs the 500 or 577 are so true, but in the middle is where the more versitile stoppers are, 450, 470, 465, and my foavorite, the 458wm.

If you are in doubt, I would follow the advice and practice of the fellows who choose the 450/400, unless you really think you'll be doing lots of elephant hunting in the future.

Best,

JPK

JPK.....agreed. If I didn't already own 470 and 450 doubles along with a 404 bolt (with another one the way from Stuart Saterlee based on a Win action I sent him ) I'd get a 450/400 in a minute...it's a great, not to mention classic, African chambering. I know he'll love his Searcy.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Make no mistake about it, MY favorite choice for elephants is my 450 No2.
I shot in practice and in local hunting over 3000 rounds in this double before my first Safari to Africa.
With the 450 No2 I have killed 2 squirrel, 2 coyotes, many skunks, armidillos, and racoons, several deer and many many pigs, and an eland here in Texas.
In Africa I have killed several elephants, a couple of cape buff, a wildebest, and an eland with it.

This rifle fits me very well and I have made several good shots with it.

I just think a new double rifle/Safari hunter would be more happy with a 450/400.

It was enough gun for John Taylor, and if you read "THE RIFLE AND ITS DEVELOPMENT FOR HUNTING" [by Burrard if I remember correctly] you will see several accounts of the 450/400 in use by several hunters.

I have never read any account of the 400 not doing the job.

I have killed elephant, buff and lion with my 450/400, as well as small game, deer, several wild pigs, 2 Caribou in AK, and black bear.

Heck I have even killed buff and elephant with my 9,3x74R double rifle.

A new to big bore rifles shooter might find a 450 and up double just too much of a good thing. I have never known any body that had trouble with the recoil of a 450/400 after a little practice.

And I would DEFINATELY recommend you have it scoped.

The 450/400 is more the ideal "all around" caliber for dangerous game. And it won't beat you or your pocketbook up.

My personal opinion is that this recently "re-introduced" caliber is going to become the favorite in class in the coming years. Not because it has the most power or range, but because there is very little, if anything, wrong with it.

Like 450 No. 2 says, I cannot recall any account if the 450/400 not getting the job done.

And for those of you who may scoff at 450 No. 2 using that caliber to dispatch squirrel and racoons, in his defense it should be noted they were very large squirrel and racoon.

Thanks for the great advise the 450/400 will be the first chambering.. I will have to get some advise on squirell loads for the city... They maybe big in Texas but there just plain mean in Baltimore.

Highbrass
When you get your 450/400 I will recommend some 300 gr bullet loads that should hit the same place as the full power 400 grainers.

They work great for practice, deer, pigs etc.

quote:

And for those of you who may scoff at 450 No. 2 using that caliber to dispatch squirrel and racoons, in his defense it should be noted they were very large squirrel and racoon.

"squirell loads for the city... They maybe big in Texas but there just plain mean in Baltimore."

You guys are too funny.

JPK

JPK

Have you ever tried 350 grain Hornady bullets in your 458 double using my 75% rule?

If they work in your gun, you will use it for everything, knowing how you like doubles.

NE 450 No.2,

Following your 75% rule, I have some pretty good shooting loads (shoot a bit low - or high - between the standing and first folding rear sight at 50yds), but they are loaded with 350gr Woodleighs since I thought that I might need the Woodleighs with the extra velocity. They are with IMR 3031, which I have since abandoned for being too temperature sensative and too slow with 500 grainers. (I have found that I can get my rifle to shoot to regulation from 2050 to 2135fps with the 500 grainers, depending on powder)

I have a few 20 round boxes left and when they are gone I'm going to rework up a more accurate load with the Hornadays and H 4895, which I like with the North Forks, or AA 2230, which I like with the 500gr Woodleigh solids.

In fact, when I get my rifle back from stock refinishing, I'm going to shoot up all of the softs I have, which include the 350's and some 500 Woodleighs too, and redevelop the 350gr Hornaday load with H 4895 or AA 2230, the 500gr Woodleigh soft load with AA 2230 to match my 500gr solid load and the 450gr North Forks, both flat nose and cup point, with H 4895 since the new version with more bands has come out and I'm out of the old version.

I can reload at my almost local riflesmith's and he has a standing bench so it doesn't take too long to find the right combo. Load six and go outside and see how they shoot; come back inside and adjust... Pretty lucky option.

JPK

JPK....why don't you use AA5744?...any particular reason? I used it with 400gr bullets in my 470 DR with great results and am just now beggining to load it for 350 gr bullets in my 450 NE. Just wondering.

Thanks.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

GarBy,

Its not a listed powder for the 458wm that I recall. I'm not familiar with it either.

The best powder for 500 grainers is AA 2230 based on book and experience. And I like H 4895 for the 450's because it burns cleaner than AA 2230 for the 450's and is not problem to get to the velocity that makes the 450's shoot to regulation. I'm shooting 500 grain Woodleigh solids at 2135fps and the 450 North Forks at 2190fps. Both have proven excellent on elephants, with the nod to the North Forks for awesome penteration.

JPK

JPK and Highbrass:

My Francotte came back from JJ. Now that I have all the blessings from the DR gods, I am now compiling components to reload for this caliber.

That being said, I can plan on meeting you any time to do some "fun" shooting - that is, not worry about regulation as I haven't worked up loads for the rifle yet.

JPK, I believe your Thys is still getting its stock adjusted. When it is back, perhaps we can plan a local DR shoot in the greater DC area to get highbrass familiar with DRs.

It should be an enjoyable afternoon.

JPK....I misunderstood. I thought you were looking at reduced loads for "fun" shooting in the NE double calibers. I had great luck with 5744 in that scenario....sorry.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Garby,

Now I understand your question. What NE 450 No.2 was referring to and what I was referring to regarding the 350gr Hornadays was his 75% rule, where you load a bullet at about 75% of the weight of the regulation bullet over that full weight bullet's powder charge and ussually come close to a light bullet load that shoots to regulation.

In this case its 350 grainers for the 75% weight bullet in lieu of the full weight 500 grainers.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
JPK and Highbrass:

My Francotte came back from JJ. Now that I have all the blessings from the DR gods, I am not compiling components to reload for this caliber.

That being said, I can plan on meeting you any time to do some "fun" shooting - that is, not worry about regulation as I haven't worked up loads for the rifle yet.

JPK, I believe your Thys is still getting its stock adjusted. When it is back, perhaps we can plan a local DR shoot in the greater DC area to get highbrass familiar with DRs.

It should be an enjoyable afternoon.

577,

My Thys should be back from stock refinishing in about two weeks. I'm scheduled to develop loads for the new style North Fork flat point solids and cup points and the 500gr Woodleigh softs as well as 350gr Hornaday softs on Monday, Nov 26. Need to load some ammo for each when I've found the loads and some Woodleigh solids too. Since this is just a tweaking session and I know which powders I'll be loading with, I should get it all done on the 26th.

{I do my reloading at my gunsmith' and he has a standing bench just outside his door. Load development is way accelerated. Load six, go outside and see how they shoot. Come back in and adjust the load... Repeat until the load is perfect. And if I need a break, he loves shooting my rifle too.}

Sometime in early or mid December sounds great to me.

JPK

BigFiveJack,

Grateful if you would PM me with Ken Owen's phone number. Can't get it from information.

regards, Tim

JPK....got it. My fingers work much quicker than my brain.

Thanks.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

IMO anyone who thinks the 450-400 is lacking for any dangerous game animal in the world, simply has not used it..I have never seen it fail on anything, nor do I know anyone who has seen it fail, the rest is

It is also a somewhat better killer of big animals that the .375, or seems to me it is, although I am a big fan of the .375..I have used the 470 a great deal and the 500 a little and I sold them both and placed an order with Butch for another 450-400, I just like the caliber, the light weight of the gun at 9.5 lbs.

I also am a fan of the 450 No. 2, but can't see a lot of difference in the reaction of a hit with any of these calibers.

Sometimes I get the impression that a lot of hunters think a bigger bore can make up for poor shooting and nothing could be further from the truth!

What I am sure of is a properly placed bullet with any of the above mentioned calibers will kill the animmal, and a poorly placed shot will not..

So Ray,

I think the thread shows "universal" agreement that a 450/400 would make a fine buff, etc. cartridge and when when taliking DG other than elephants. Especially the lighter rifles, like a 9 1/2 pounder as you describe. But the divergence comes when elephant hunting is the criteria.

How many elephants have you killed?

JPK

Ray is correct in what he says about the killing power of well placed shots from his listed calibers. Where his reasoning can be questioned is when he says that a missed brain shot on elephant is a result of poor shooting. You may be the best and most accurate shot in the world but if you misjudge the correct line to the brain on a charging elephant you will miss the brain. It has happened to every elephant hunter in the world, including the best. The reasons are, when an elephant charges the head is bouncing as the feet hit the ground, the charge may come from such close range that you have insufficient time to make out the correct line of shot or the shadows and sun angle may make determining where the ear hole is difficult. I have seen these conditions personally. Here is where a larger caliber can make a difference. If you miss the brain the more likely the elephant will be stopped or turned, the larger the caliber you use. This is why most PHs with a lot of close cover elephant hunting experience use large caliber rifles.

465H&H

465,
Respectfully, I am not of the school that a bigger bore can be "depended" on to knock out an elephant or even turn a charge, I believe that any bullet must scrape the brain to have a serious effect. I have seen several instances where big bores had little effect. It may turn a charge but then so will a .375 at times. An example is the first elephant to be shot with the 700 N.E. got shot twice in the head and escaped or so I have been told by some pretty on the know folks.

The point I am trying to make is the bullet must be placed in the brain to have the desired results otherwise any number of things can take place with any caliber. I understand that anyone can miss and everyone does at times.

I have not shot a lot of elephants, one very big bull and took part in another, then a charging cow..I have been in on a heck of a lot of elephant kills as an observer being in the hunting business in Africa for some 35 plus years. I am not fond of elephant hunting prefering to hunt buffalo, but I think that I have seen enough use of the 450-400 and other calibers on elephant to qualify on this thread.

My friend Mark Selby thinks the 450-400 is a "prince of a caliber for anything" He's probably a qualified source..Harry Manners, Johan Calitz and others consider the .375 an excellent elephant rifle. Saeed has shot a few elephants with his .375 with perfect results on all of them..I don't know anymore qualified folks than these.

It is just my opinnion and I will continue to use the 450-400 on everything...I have no problems with others using whatever they desire.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
465,
Respectfully, I am not of the school that a bigger bore can be "depended" on to knock out an elephant or even turn a charge, I believe that any bullet must scrape the brain to have a serious effect. I have seen several instances where big bores had little effect. It may turn a charge but then so will a .375 at times.

The point I am trying to make is the bullet must be placed in the brain to have the desired results otherwise any number of things can take place with any caliber. I understand that anyone can miss and everyone does at times.

No one disputes that a bullet that reaches the brain will work. History shows that any bullet that reaches the brain works, even a relatively small 6.5 bullet.

And, to me in my reading, and limited experience, and that of every PH that I have discussed this with, more calibre and more bullet weight makes a huge difference in stopping an elephant, or dropping it, or knocking it out, if the shot doesn't reach the brain.

For a first source opinion other than mine or others on this thread, just look at Buzz Charlton's DVD. You can see it there. And you can also here it there from Buzz. Or try Richard Harland's book, or Ron Thomsons...

Ray, how many elephants have you seen killed?

JPK