quote:

As far as the intercepting sears and cocking indicators. If a rifle is properly made these are not really necessary.

IMO cocking indicators are essentially useless. The rifle cocks when you load it and uncocks when you fire it. No more information is needed.

Intercepting sears, though, are an improvement worth the $'s, imo. Not that a rifle without them is unhuntable, it surely isn't and is the standard so far as numbers afield. Just that intercepting sears do allow lighter trigger pulls and eliminate the potential AD caused by those lighter pulls and dropping a rifle, say, while scrambling up and hill or down slippery grass.

Too many DR's have crappy heavy trigger pulls that are easily cured, but pushing it w/o intercepting sears.

Personally, I like intercepting sears and bolted safety. Safest combination there can be - no AD without trigger pull, no trigger pull w/o safety AND bolt being swung. And a bolted safety is a mere fraction of a milisecond slower, if you are familiar with it. Of course, when you know you are close, or are following you take the bolt off.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by h2oboy:
Highbrass.

Since this thread has been hijacked anyway, here is some info for you.
Heym 88B"PH" = $16,000.00

Searcy Classic = $15,000.00

Searcy PH Model(The Original PH) = $12,000.00

This seems like a pretty clear choice to me....
Compare the Heym PH to the Searcy Classic.( they are in the same price range) There is no comparison!!! What do you get for the extra $1000.00 Well lets see, no engraving, and some plain wood. In my opinion you made the best choice when you chose the Searcy!! A company that stands behind their products and it is american made! At $12000.00 the Searcy PH model is a great gun for the money.

Clearly from someone who doesn't understand the difference between build quality and "bells and whistles".
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

h2oboy

Just curious, what do you shoot?

Before I bought my first double, I went through the comparisons on new doubles with a fine tooth comb.

The standard features on a Heym are pricey options on a Searcy.

As for intercepting sears, I disagree that a proper build eliminates the need. Quite the contrary, their utility is the same no matter what the rifle.

Articulated front triggers, same deal.

Before I purchased a new double, I went through it all. Compared everything imaginable. Looked at and handled them live.

For fit, finish, looks, quality and shootability, the Heym came out heads and shoulders above the Searcy. In fact, the Heym favorably compares to doubles at twice the price. And I frankly don't expect Heym to hold that price line much longer.

Not running down Butch's rifles. The newest ones I saw were very good quality and they shoot very well on target.

JPK, there is one big benefit to those cocking indicators. You can answer the question "did I or didn't I" without taking your eyes off the game. When things get a little heated, it is nice to be able to maintain your vision toward the game.

But they are not in Heym's class.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
IMO cocking indicators are essentially useless. The rifle cocks when you load it and uncocks when you fire it. No more information is needed.

JPK

quote:

By Jim Manion

JPK, there is one big benefit to those cocking indicators. You can answer the question "did I or didn't I" without taking your eyes off the game.

JPK, I agree with your take on most of the features you like, but must disagree on the cocking indicators being useless. You are correct that they are not needed to find out if you loaded the rifle or not, but they are valuable in two instances. #1 is when you fire on an animal, and he doesn't go down, but steps behind something where the killzone is coverd, momentarily, for the second shot. As you well know, one doesn't always feel a double discharge when fireing on game,and a simple touch with a finger, without takeing your eyes off the target, will assure you the other barrel was not fired. #2 is when sitting in a blind, or loading in the dark when exiting the hunting car, a simple feel makes sure your rifle has, infact cocked both barrels. I also agree with you on the improtance of intercepting sears, when coupled with a single machaniclly operated trigger,in particular, that cocks bot barrels, and disingages the intercepter. This feature takes away Mr. Murphy's chance to get you to pull the trigger on an empty case, because of an undetected double discharge!

I have cocking indicators on three of my double rifles, and on several double shotguns, and it has become habit to feel them every time I load them, to make sure the rifle has, in fact, cocked it's self! I didn't pay more for these features, they just happened to be on the rifles, and guns I bought. I would pay more for interceptors, however, on a dangerous game rifle, but I can live without either feature!

Just one man's opinion, and not any better, or more valid, than the opinions of others!

On cocking indicators, my two double rifles have them and so do maybe half of my shotguns. Never used them or felt the need.

Imo, if you've got time to feel for the indicator, you might as well reload. Your ejectors will let you know which barrel has fired, but then, the shooter should know which. No need to take your eyes of the game to reload, it should be second nature, made so by practice and shooting a SxS shotgun too.

Never had a double discharge, with intercepting sears, the only way to have a double discharge is shooter error since the second sear will prevent a mechanical failure leading to a discharge. Proper technque and practice eliminate the shooter error.

JPK

Jim
To answer your question I shoot a Searcy. Have owned several. Second I did not say that a "proper build eliminates the need"
I said "If a rifle is properly made these are not really necessary" There are lots of quality guns out there that have Interceptors and lots that do not. They are all good guns.

Thanks for all of the information on the subject. The reason why I posted on the forum was to get as much information as I could before making up my mind and all of the posts have been helpfull. The Searcy falls within my budget without impacting my 2009 Safari. Everything I have read about the Heym product has been very positive and it is apparent that they are manufacturing a quality double. If the Euro to dollar exchange was a little better I am sure the cost difference would not be as great. I am still working on the caliber and I noticed a post from New_guy that eluded to what sounded like a new source for 450 brass. Can anyone confirm. Thanks

Highbrass

You can never go wrong with a 450/400.

If you go with the Searcy get the 400 frame. If you have a 450/400 you do not need a 470 unless you plan on shooting a LOT of elephants.

I think the 450/400 is the best choice for the modern Safari hunter, UNLESS you are like JPK or Me, and others who hunt MULTIPLE elephants.

Then the bigger double is a better choice IF you can handle the extra recoil.

I have shot elephant and buff with my 450 No2 and my 450/400, and could not tell any difference in performance, truth be told my 9,3x74R killed elephant and buff as good as the bigger guns.... BUT I made good hits with the 9,3.

But no doubt a bigger hammer gives you some what of an edge, if well handled.

Still, I think a 450/400 is the best all round choice.

I have handled Searcy's Classic in 450/400 and I liked it. Also Heym makes a nice double, I have shot a few in 470, their 450/400 would be a great pick as well.

Think HARD about the 450/400, it is a great double rifle calibre... ESPECIALLY if scoped.

I scoped my British 450/400 3 1/4", and it is truely one of the best hunting rifles on Planet Earth.

A scoped 450/400 Double [with claw mounts], has no equal.

N E 450 No 2

The information you have provided on the 450/400 was helpfull. With a removable scope system did you have any issues with regulating. I would not think that you would but I noticed another post that referenced an issue between a scope and an open site.

This will be my first Elephant hunt and I hope it will not be my last but you never know. I have been leaning toward the 450/400 but have also considered the 450NE as a competant round with about 25% less recoil than a 470.

I finished my measurements last night and I am planning on ordering my double this afternoon. I am considering ordering the larger framed DR in case at a later date I would like another set of barrels mfg.

All things being equal I believe we shoot better with scoped rifles but I do need the ability to use the iron sites for follow up.

Highbrass

I have scoped 2 doubles and a double rifle drilling. I have not had any regulation issues.

I think a 450/400 on the bigger frame will be a mistake.

One of the nice things about the 450/400's is tht they can be slimmer and lighter than the bigger guns.

A scoped [with claw mounts] would be a very good choice.

It has plenty of "Power".
My wife killed her buff [one shot], and I have killed a buff, elephant and lion with my 450/400.

I have also used it for deer, wild pigs, 2 caribou in AK and blackbear in Montana.

The 450/400 is a great double calibre, and is light and handy enough to use for much more than Africa.

I agree with 450 No. 2 on this issue. I had a Jeffery 450/400 that weighed 9.5 lbs. and was a joy to carry along the Idaho/Montana divide for elk. I took a couple of bulls with it and sure wish I still owned it. A 10 1/2 lb 450/400 will have a very pleasant recoil level but it is very nice at 9.5 lbs. I don't think you need a 470 if your only going to take two or three elephants. If you plan to hunt large numbers of cows in the really thick Jesse then a a caliber larger than 450/400 is definately desireable. That's why I have a 465 and a 470 as well as a 458 Lott.

465H&H

Highbrass:

If you're set on the Searcy...frame size just depends...

First off, it's a mistake to negate the advantage of a .400 (more pleasant to shoot, fast recovery) by building it too light, thus making it unpleasant to shoot. Mine is 10 lbs, 2 oz, which I consider ideal. NE 450 No. 2's .400 is a touch heavier than mine (without the scope). Both have 26" barrels, which I recommend.

With respect to frame size...

Let's say that you decide to have a .400 built to weight 10lbs. If you have it built to weigh 10 lbs on the larger frame, it WILL handle better than a rifle built to the same weight on the smaller frame - because it puts more weight between the hands. That may seem counterintuitive, but it's actually axiomatic. Given two double rifles of the same caliber, fit, barrel length, and final weight, the "slimmer" actions don't handle as well because the weight distribution is so different.

If you're going to scope it, I agree with Tony about the claw mounts - they're the only way to go on a double rifle. I've never seen a Searcy with claws, and have never heard of them offering them. Perhaps they've introduced that option.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Highbrass,

YOU DO NOT WANT A SCOPE ON A RIFLE FOR ELEPHANT HUNTING!!!

Chance are very good you will be pretty close, say under 20yds, perhaps within 10yds, to your target, in any event, you will be close enough for express sights. Chances are also pretty good that the bush will be pretty thick.

The shooting challenge for braining an elephant isn't, or shouldn't be, the ability to keep your shots within a sufficiently small target offhand at elephant range, it is identifying the "landmarks" on the ele's head which tell you where to place your shot so that the bullet enters the brain. On a frontal brain shot the brain can be less than a foot or some three feet and more behind the point of impact of the bullet depending on your relative elevation and how the elephant is holding it head at the shot. The alternative heart shot gives a huge target and is no issue, even at longer ranges.

Often there will be more than one elephant around, you do not want to limit your peripheral vision.

Not that a QD scope is not a great idea on a 450/400, just don't use the scope when you're closing on an elephant!!

There is no significant difference between the recoil of the 450NE and the 470 - or 458wm for that matter, loaded to the same performance level. No noticeable difference in recoil in my rifle with 450gr, 480gr or 500gr bullets either.

Recoil with an elephant or cape buffalo, or any other game, in your sights will be just sufficient to let you know that the rifle has fired. There are no recoil recovery issues or delays with game in your sights either.

450 NE No.2 gives good advice. If I were in your shoes, I would make the decision based on whether you think "lots" of elephants are in your future and with the knowlege that the 450/400 has been killing elephants for a century.

In any event, I would choose either a big bore, 470 or 450NE or whatever, or the 450/400 but built on the smaller frame. A 9 to 9 1/2lb 450/400 would be a fine elephant rifle and great for buff and all and a delight to carry.

Elephant hunting most often translates to lots of walking. Humping a 10 or 10 1/2lb or so stopper double rifle in 450NE or 470NE is one good option. Humping a 9 or 9 1/2lb double in 450/400 is another fine option, but humping a 10+lb 450/400 just makes no sense to me.

If you go with a 450/400 and then find elephants are the game for you, and you go on to shoot "many" you will want more gun in the future, of that I am sure. But with a 450/400 you will be set until you make the commitment to quantity elephant hunting, and well beyond if that bigger rifle never comes along.

The big bore double rifle stoppers come into their own when the bush is thick and the range short. If you find elephants are your future, you will probably also find that "close" is redefined to mean within 10 yds and "thick bush" is redefined to mean single digit yards of visibility.

FWIW, I picked up a double rifle in 375H&H, which will be equiped with claw mounts, for my second rifle on elephant trips. The rifle weighs 8 1/2lbs or so and will see some use on elephants when the bush is not too thick and the terrain steep and I'm beat or too damn old and fat to hump 10 1/2lbs of rifle day in and day out (some long time down the road, I hope.)

We really should get together for a shoot down on the Eatern Shore. I'll try to find out when my Thys will be back.

In the meantime, have you picked up a copy of Buzz Charlton's DVD, "Hunting the African Elelephant"? If not you really should. You can get it at Safari Press I believe.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Elephant hunting most often translates to lots of walking. Humping a 10 or 10 1/2lb or so stopper double rifle in 450NE or 470NE is one good option. Humping a 9 or 9 1/2lb double in 450/400 is another fine option, but humping a 10+lb 450/400 just makes no sense to me.

Highbrass:

The above statement makes no sense at all.

If you are at all sensitive to recoil which, from your posts above, I assume that you are, I have two observations...

First with respect to fatigue from carrying a rifle while hunting, if one pound of gun weight (9 lbs vs 10 lbs) makes any makes any difference to you at all, think of your family and don't go hunting. If that little bit makes enough difference to notice in carrying a well-balanced double rifle built with proper weight distribution, then that would indicate a physical condition that might result...well, you might have a heart attack and die. If you're fit enough for the hunting that you want to do, it won't make any difference at all. My friend Tony (NE 450 No. 2 above) has done a lot of elephant hunting, is older than I am, and is a smaller guy. He usually uses a 12 lb .450 No. 2 with 28" barrels. I've never heard a single complaint from him about it.

Second, where one pound of weight DOES make a HUGE difference, especially for those at all sensitive to it (I'm not), is recoil. Traditionally, and for good reason, fine double rifles are built as a "package". The better guns are built to a weight that, for most people, makes them shootable in terms of recoil and controllability, yet as reasonable as possible in total weight - a balance between gun weight and cartridge. A typical weight for a good quality .470 is 10.75 to 11 lbs, not 10, and it's amazing how much even a half pound of gun weight reduces felt recoil. I shoot a lot of different double rifles on a regular basis. Aside from my own, I'm co-founder of the Double Rifle Shooter's Society that hosts a double rifle shoot and hog hunt twice a year, with usually 20 or so different double rifles in camp. I also do a fair bit of load development for other guy's doubles, and most of that shooting is done from the bench. Even from the bench, given even rudimentary fit, I find most of the .470 group rifles in the 10.75 - 11 lb range to be comfortable to shoot, enough so that I enjoy them. The 10 pounders are just a mean, nasty chore. Sure, you can find new built .470s at 10 lbs, or less, but go through the old strings on this board and look at how many of those, and even some of the heavier guns, end up with a pound of after market mercury crammed up their ass. Most people just flat can't handle them, and they shouldn't have been built that light to begin with.

I've heard the "you never feel recoil when you're shooting at game" bullshit a million times. It's absolutely true, as well as totally irrelevant. If the gun is too much for you when shooting from the bench and practicing shooting from field positions, the bottom line is that you will never learn to use it well in the field. Over time, with reasonable practice, which rifle will you be able to shoot the best - one that you enjoy shooting, or one that reduces practice to a nasty chore?

Most quality .400s probably average 10.25 lbs. The .400s were the most popular of all the over .40 double rifle rounds, and more double rifles have been built in .400 than any other caliber over .375. That's because, at that weight, they were effective, easy to carry, and much easier to learn to shoot well with a very fast recovery than the .450/.470 group. Reducing the weight to an asinine 9 lbs (lighter than they've ever been built before), thus making it just as vicious to shoot as a light .470, eliminates the .400's advantages. It's a particularly dumb thing to do.

Have it built to weight 10 pounds on the larger action. You'll have a great handling, easy to carry rifle in an effective caliber that's easy to learn to shoot really well, even if you're somewhat recoil sensitive.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

In response to 400 Nitro Express's post, I can tell you that a pound of weight, carried all day, is a hell of a lot..

Ask him when he last went seven or eight hours on elephant or buff tracks, or any tracks. Especially in the heat of Africa.

When you regularly go hours on tracks, what you carry becomes critical, rifle weight, crap on your belt like cameras, any binos, your boots, ... if it doesn't add some notable practical value it is unwanted and eventually discarded. A pound of rifle weight, or even a half pound, without the return in knock down or stopping power is foremost in avoidable weight you need to plan for. You can ditch your binos and your camera, your multi tool, etc while you hunt. You can't ditch your rifle. And it is just plain asking for multiple sources of trouble to have a tracker carry it. Remember, even the 20 something or 30 something PH's are beat at the end of the day. We're not in our 20's or 30's, at least I'm not. And the PH's have been walking all season day in and day out, tough to match for most who work here for a living.

Some guys like light rifles, I am not one. But I do like rifles that weigh what they should. 10 to 10 1/2lbs is right for a 450/470 class rifle. 9 1/2, or better yet, 9lbs is right for a 450/400, 8 1/4 to 8 3/4 for a 375H&H... Look at 465H&H's post regarding his previous 450/400 at 9 1/2lbs and humping with that rifle, 465H&H is an experience elephant hunter with many eles under his belt. Also look for posts by 500 Grains, another successful elephant hunter with many under his belt. He prefers to hunt with a Searcy 500NE which weighs just a bit over 10lbs, as I recall.

If you want to see a light weight rifle fan's opinions, due a search for Will's post. He is another successful elephant hunter with lots of elelphants under his belt. His weight for a 416 Taylor, a cartridge ballisticly "superior" to the 450/400's, in that it throws a 400gr solid at 2300fps or 2350fps rather than at the 450/400's 2050fps to 2150fps, and so will provide better penetration, runs under 8lbs. That is light weight. I understand his view, having walked all those miles for elephants as he has, but I prefer midlin' weights or so. As the saying goes, "Recoil last but a moment, but gravity is forever." I'll take the middle road.

Rather than use industry averages, which 400 Nitro Express claims to do but doesn't - except with regard to overweight 450/400's - look at the historical weights of H&H rifles. They will be all over the place but they will average notably lighter than the rest of the rifles, especially the run of the mill box locks.

Recoil tolerance is learned and built up, and it doesn't take much to learn it and buld it up, other than regular practice beginning well before any safari. And of course it is hardly noticed when shooting at any game let alone dangerous game, which is what the rifle is for and what the point of the practice is. A good fitting rifle goes a long way to reducing felt recoil and should be a prerequisite.

As far as function and double triggers and loading, a SxS shotgun will teach you, in an afternoon of sporting clays or skeet, what days at the range will teach you with a double rifle. Duck, goose, dove hunting the same but better.

Having a double rifle to shoot at the range or at social gatherings for just the fun of it is fine, but that is not what the rifle should be all about, it should be merely a bonus. The double rifle is the ultimate tool for the elephant hunter, for follow up on any dangerous game, and damn fun for buff and other critters. But it is, and will remain, the best tool for close dangerous game, especially elephant, the pursuit of which is, or should be, the underlying reason for owning a double rifle.

Recoil recovery is just a BS issue. There is just no recovery time required for 450/470 class rifles. Your second shot will be available, aimed and ready the moment the first shot hits your target. To prove this point, I will give you a copy of a DVD featuring my favorite elephant hunter - me! - and you can determine for yourself if recovery time is any issue. There are five elephants killed in the DVD, all last October, I'll give you the raw footage, rather than the edited, condensed version, in the hope that you get an idea of what humping all day is about. Either version will provide an insight to knock down power as well. For an example of stopping power, search for my post in this double rifles section on stopping a charge at 7 yds. Post was made about February or March.

And for balance, it is a factor when the rifle is in your hands and the game is in front. But when you are carrying your rifle, 10 1/2lbs is 10 1/2lbs if the rifle is well balanced or not. Likewise with 9 1/2lbs or any other weight.

Loading the center of the rifle with weight, as 400 Nitro Express advocates, might be a way to acheive balance, but the better way is to reduce weight at the extremities, the barrels and stock.

Even then, some prefer one feel and others another. For a readily available example, note the difference in feel of two different but top of the top guns, try a Purdey best shotgun vs. an H&H Royal shotgun. Very different feels, with the H&H feeling more center weighted and faster and the Purdey more muzzle weighted and smoother. And this difference is noteable in alomost all Purdeys and Hollands from the advent of the breech loader. One is not better than the other, they are just different.

Hope this exchange has been helpful in your decision making. Do yourself the favor of learning about actually using a double rifle from those who actually use them as you intend to.

JPK

Both 400 and JPK make great points.

My favorite double is my 450 No2. it weighs 11 3/4 lbs and has 28" bbls. I have carried it for many a mile in Zimbabwe on 3 Safaris.
Both of the PH's I have hunted with called it the Hammer of Thor.

My 450/400 3 1/4" weighs 10 lbs. if I remember correctly, with out scope.
It has 26" bbls and is slimmer, and handier than my 450 No2.

I also have a Chapuis 9,3x74R double rifle, scoped of course.

I have used my doubles in Texas, Montana, Idaho, Canada, Alaska, and @86 hunting days in Zimbabwe.

Knowing what I know now, If I could only have one double rifle it would be my scoped 450/400.

I shot the buff and elephant with iron sights, the lion was taken with the scope. I also used the scope for baboon, warthog, and zebra.

That is the beauty of a scoped 450/400 it is an ALL PURPOSE hunting rifle.

I believe that a 450/400 scoped double rifle [with QD mounts] is the best choice for the modern Safari hunter.

I think you would be most happy with a 450/400.

If you were experienced with heavier recoil, and planed on shooting a LOT of elephants, then a 450 or a 470 might be a slightly better choice...

But I have NEVER known of anyone buying a 450/400, and using it in Africa, comming home and wishing he had a bigger gun.

I have known of a few who bought a 470, and a 450/400 and telling me they wish they had not bought the 470, as they could shoot the 450/400 much better.

I have never known ANYONE that regretted buying a 450/400 double.

My advice to you is to get the 450/400, on the 400 frame with a @1-4 scope, either a S&B, or a Swarovski [1.5-4], with an illuminated reticle, in Quick Detach mounts.

Gee, I guess that at the age of 50 when I carried a 10 lb. 450/400 all day in the African sun I should have known better?
I don't remember ever saying, "I wish I had a lighter rifle."
I've never been a light weight rifle fan. I am recoil sensitive. If a rifle gets too heavy in Africa, I think they provide someone to carry it for you?

NE 450 No.2,

Since you have walked the miles, please try to answer the following questions by stepping back and trying not to be too influenced by your love for your rifles.

If you were to have your 450 NE No.2 built for you today, what weight would your specify?

If you were to have your 450/400 built for you today, what weight would you specify?

Do you approach an elephant with the same confidence with your 450/400 as with your 450NE No.2?

If you had to choose one double rifle, would you choose the 450 or the 450/400, given that you love to hunt eles as you do?

FWIW, I would pair 1/2lb from my Thys to bring it to 10lbs.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Gee, I guess that at the age of 50 when I carried a 10 lb. 450/400 all day in the African sun I should have known better?
I don't remember ever saying, "I wish I had a lighter rifle."
I've never been a light weight rifle fan. I am recoil sensitive. If a rifle gets too heavy in Africa, I think they provide someone to carry it for you?

Rusty,

How many days back to back? How many days total? How many elephants or buff have you walked for?

Will is the light rifle fan, under 8lbs for his 416 Taylor, 400grs at 2300fps; 9 or 9 1/2lbs for 400grs at 2050 or 2150fps isn't light.

We're not talking about what already exists, we're talking about what is optimal for a new double rifle.

And have you ever seen how fast a tracker can run when you 'round a corner and bump a buff or ele? (I have, and more than once, but thankfully I had my double rifle in my hands.)

JPK

Thank you for all of the information, having spent several 10 plus hour days chasing buffalo I do know that weight becomes a factor especially in the afternoon. My .375 plains game set up became very stripped down after chasing buffalo for just one day, no more bipods and gone with the sling. I do not know that I am recoil sensative just never fired anything that big and I know how well I can shoot the .375 with the recoil that it has which is well. I am in good shape and run 20 plus miles per week and lift to stay fit. My first trip to Africa was in 05, again this year and scheduled for 09. I hope to make the trip back every 2 years as long as the body holds out and statistically that should be another 36 years.

The scope use that I was considering was simmalar to what 450#2 had considered not so much for elephant but for plains game and where the optical advantage will increase the probability of the first bullet placement.

I would very much enjoy seeing the footage of your hunt if you would be willing to share it. After being around elephants for 16 days in Zimbabwe this year I was hooked and they are amazing!

I understand exactly what JPK was saying about the different feel in shotguns as a browning and a beretta over/under behave and feel very different I am a fan of one and not the other.

It sounds like I am just going to have to bite the bullet and make a decision. The posts have been great and the advise well taken. I may have to see if Cabelas in WV or PA has many doubles in stock just to get a feel for a few different models. I am leaning toward the 450/400 more for anything else is I can afford to practice with it alot more before the hunt as the saying goes a bullet well placed.

I would be interested in attending any events that are out there or just shooting some different models while I wait for delivery.

I will post the order in the next day or so.

Sorry, I forgot to mention we only hunted 10 days. I most certainly don't want to leave the impression that it was a 14 or 21 day hunt.

JPK

Here are the answers to your questions.

I would not change ANYTHING on my 450 No2, same weight same 28" bbls. This rifle fits me better than any rifle I have ever fired or handled.
I just "awvwe" it in the general direction of game and pull the trigger. It is kinda heavy and long by some standards, but for me it handles perfect.
It is my most favorite rifle.

My 450/400 with its 26" bbl is a perfect ize and weight for a 400 IMHO.
It is a slimmer lighter rifle than the No2. It too is well balanced and with the scope mounted it still feels good. The scope is mounted very low, so aiming through it does not feel any different than using the iron sights.

I would not change anything about this double either, it fits me very well, almost as good as the 450 No2.

Approaching elephants with confidence.

I have no fear when close to elephants with the 450 No2.

I have taken elephants with all 3 of my doubles. I took one in a herd at 5 yards with my 9,3x74R.

I knew and felt is was a little light for the job, but would work if well handled.

On my last Safari I used my 450/400 for elephant buff and lion.

I never worried about its level of power for a single instant. I knew and felt it would do the job no problem.... And it did.


Choosing one double.

I could never have only one double.
While a big bore double [40 cal and up] is an absolute necesity, I have the 9,3x74R double to be one of ther best allround hunting rifles on the Planet.

However in TALKING about only one double, I will offer the following.

I have been on 3 Safaris, and have taken a wide variety of plains game. I would be happy to return to Africa and hunt/shoot only elephants.

Under those conditions I would want my 450 No2.

However for a hunt where an elephant or two, a buff or two and a variety of plains game will be taken I would prefer the scoped 450/400.

I think a scoped 450/400 double is the best lion gun, bar none.

Again,
I think for the modern Safari hunter a scoped 450/400 is the best all round choice.

quote:

However for a hunt where an elephant or two, a buff or two and a variety of plains game will be taken I would prefer the scoped 450/400.

NE 450 No.2,

I need to point out the fantastic good fortune that we share to be even able to discuss this topic with seriousness, let alone experience. Many fine and deserving fellows only get to dream their dreams while you and I have the opportunity to live ours. We truly are fortunate.

Having given thanks, I have to say that your quote above depicts an incredible safari that almost anyone would find a lifetime trip. I'll defer to your recomendation of the 450/400, with claw mounts and a great scope, as the best all 'round double rifle for all but the elephant nuts like you and I, 500 Grains, Will, 465H&H and some others.

I too will be happy to return to Africa just to hunt elephants, though this has proven difficult with all of the quota and fun to be had!!

We will never agree on the weight issue I suspect, but I respect your opinion since you've put in the miles behind eles. I don't think you were able to step back from your love of your rifles to give a fair assessment though, I know this because there just can't be two perfect rifles!!

JPK

JPK
I have handled your 458 Thys, and as I have said before it is a fine double.
because of my previous job I am in pretty good shape and actually carried a work rifle that weighs more than my No2, not even considering all the other kit that went with the job.

Several reasons why I recommend the 450/400 for a new double rifle shooter is that they are usually lighter, and recoil less than the bigger bores, and thus are more suitable for scoping. most present day hunters are more comfortable with a scope.

I would not use the scope for elephants, but for most buff hunting the average client might find it helpful.
I have only used a scope on one buff, with the 9,3x74R, but might not have been able to take the shot without it.

One thing anyone should do before getting a big bore rifle is to shoot some of them to see how much recoil they are comfortable with.

The 450/400's seem fairly soft shooting to me.
They kill real well too.

For elephant crazy hunters like us the bigger bore is no doubt a little better, especially if you like to get very close as I do.

Highjacking my own thread, if "Cuba" type sanctions are levied on Zimbabwe it will make it very difficult for many to experiance much of African Hunting. Althoug South Africa and Namibia are very plains game friendly where you find the big stuff will be out of reach to most.

Highbrass:

I shoot a 404 Jeff in a Heym bolt. It is loaded somewhere between the 450-400 and 416 Rigby speeds....400 gr at 2225-2300 fps. The rifle weighs about 11# scoped. I use a PAST recoil pad from the bench while working up loads, then no accessory pad while using my standing (DR) rest. Recoil is not too bad but definitely more than 375 H&H and LESS than my 450 and 470 NE doubles. So basically your 400 is slightly less than my 404....you shouldn't have a problem.
By the way....unless you are planning on shooting jumbos or charging hippos and capes (safari with Mark Sullivan? )....the 450-400 is about perfect...a terrific cartridge.

Good luck on your choice.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I'm enjoying this thread immensely. I currently own a 9.3 Chapuis, and have a 2nd Chapuis on order. I would love to have a 450/400, but more to have it than to go to Africa with it. I don't know where I would keep my trophies if I shot them, and not having a place to keep them is enough of a reason to NOT shoot them for me. I'm enjoying Taylor's book (third or 4th time?) and just last night finished reading about his opinion of the 450/400. He made it VERY clear that he considered it more than adequate in stopping power on ele, more than adequate for penetration and hunting in the "thick stuff", and basically the best all-round rifle, excepting maybe the .375. In the "all around" category he gets a bit soft between those two. In fact, he makes the statement that he would love to have two 450/400 doubles for everything, and that would only be improved if he could get three 450/400 doubles. Re: all around-ness. I suspect the .375 is chosen for a couple of reasons as the "best" by most. One is the flatter trajectory for longer shots. However, if you know your rifles trajectory, and especially today with range finders, range should be a non-issue. The second reason is recoil. The .375 will usually recoil less than a rifle of larger caliber, all other things being equal. However, all things are only equal if you want them to be so. Adding a pound to the 450/400 (9 1/2 to 10 pounds vs. 8 to 8 1/2 pounds) would pretty much put them in the same category IMO. Shooting a 7# 12 ga double with 1 1/2 magnum loads at ducks does qualify as heavy recoil. If you can handle that level of recoil, the 450/400 should not be a problem whether it weighs 9 1/2 or 10 pounds, again IMO. However, I defer to 400 Nitro for his knowledge re: DR's and the others with extensive Africa experience. I do know that hunting the mountains here in the NW a pound of extra anything gets real old long before the day is over. If I have to carry an extra pound, I'd rather have the extra pound in the rifle than anyplace else. DuaneB

In a perfect world there will not be a charge and imo it is less than professional to provoke one with a client.

I own a 300 ultra and have shot a 338 ultra built from the 404 case so that helps with understanding the felt recoil.

I believe the first one will be a 450/400 and then we will see how it goes. My concern now is that the State Dept closes down Zim before I get a chance to use it.

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
Highbrass:

I shoot a 404 Jeff in a Heym bolt. It is loaded somewhere between the 450-400 and 416 Rigby speeds....400 gr at 2225-2300 fps. The rifle weighs about 11# scoped. I use a PAST recoil pad from the bench while working up loads, then no accessory pad while using my standing (DR) rest. Recoil is not too bad but definitely more than 375 H&H and LESS than my 450 and 470 NE doubles. So basically your 400 is slightly less than my 404....you shouldn't have a problem.
By the way....unless you are planning on shooting jumbos or charging hippos and capes (safari with Mark Sullivan? )....the 450-400 is about perfect...a terrific cartridge.

Good luck on your choice.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

In a perfect world there will not be a charge and imo it is less than professional to provoke one with a client.

Keep in mind that charges will happen when you elephant hunt, especially in the thick, especially when you are hunting cows or they are around.

I have been charged several times, the number is lost to me but something beyond a half dozen. Only one has resulted in needing to shoot to kill (as opposed to shooting over the elephant's head or through an ear.) 500 Grains has been charged a number of times as well, twice needing to shoot to kill, as I recall. Will has been charged at least two times that I know of that required shooting to kill.

I am unfamiliar with NE 450 No.2's or 465H&H's history regarding charges.

So, of three fellows who I know who hunt a lot of elephants, with something like 40 or 45 elephants between us, there have been a bunch of charges, maybe 20 or so, and at least five needed stopping.

I know at least one of the PH's that Will has hunted with, all of the PH's 500 Grains has hunted with, I've hunted with one who we have all hunted with and one that 500 Grains knows, they are amoungst the best elephant PH's there are.

Getting charged isn't rare.

JPK

quote:

Getting charged isn't rare.

Especially if you hunt with Mark Sullivan....sorry, couldn't help myself.

Yep....stir that pot 577.....but it's my fault, I mentioned the name .

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

On six elephant hunts, I have been seriously charged twice (as apposed to mock charges) both times by cows. One of those was on the heels of me knocking down my first elephant, a tuskless cow. An eye opening introduction to the dangers of hunting in cow herds.

465H&H

quote:

I am unfamiliar with NE 450 No.2's or 465H&H's history regarding charges.

Perhaps you should see one of his videos?
In one, while being charged, he calmly places the 2 empty 450#2 cases in his pocket before reloading.

Probably just lucky? I mean carrying that heavy double and all. . .

Rusty,

I've tried to be pleasant enough. You keep pushing. Let me make it clear - your opinion is worth your experience.

When you have hunted elephants, and a bunch of them, I'll respect your opinon on elephants and elephant hunting too, like I respect NE 450 No.2's, 500 Grains, Will's, 465H&H's and others, even when we disagree.

When you have hunted a bunch of buff I'll do likewise regarding buff.

Until then, like I said, your opinion is worth your experience.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
On six elephant hunts, I have been seriously charged twice (as apposed to mock charges) both times by cows. One of those was on the heels of me knocking down my first elephant, a tuskless cow. An eye opening introduction to the dangers of hunting in cow herds.

465H&H

465H&H

Yes, my count included serious looking mock charges, but then until the ele pulls up you don't know its a mock charge. Didn't count the "demonstration charges" where its pretty - hopefully - clear they aren't coming the distance. But in my own number the count is five that I think would have gone this distance but for shooting over the head, or crossing a stream with high banks, etc.

Have you or your PH needed to shoot in self defense?

JPK

Both charging cows were shot. I think your estimate of 35 to 45 is way low for this group. I believe Will and I can account for the lower number between us.

465H&H

465H&H,

Thanks. At 40 to 45, I was counting, really guessing, only Will's, 500 Grains and mine. I supose the number with all of us, you, me, 500 Grains, Will, NE 450 No.2 is nearing 70 or so.

That is a lot of elephants.

Including a charge faced by 450 NE No.2 refered to in Rusty's post, that makes 8 that have been stopped by shooting to kill. Not a small number.

JPK

JPK,
Rusty is a Gentleman who has handled and shot a great number of Double and big bore rifles. He is an astute student of hunting rifles . I personally put a lot of worth in his opinion.
With in reason there is great latitude in opinion and it all boils down to nothing more than personal preference. I think it is a bit silly to to say that some one's opinion is of little value because he only had this or that number of days in the bush of Africa. If that is true then I guess the only persons who should have an opinion here would be Richard Harland or Gyana. A sense of humor goes a long way you know.
E

quote:

Originally posted by els:
JPK,
Rusty is a Gentleman who has handled and shot a great number of Double and big bore rifles. He is an astute student of hunting rifles . I personally put a lot of worth in his opinion.
With in reason there is great latitude in opinion and it all boils down to nothing more than personal preference. I think it is a bit silly to to say that some one's opinion is of little value because he only had this or that number of days in the bush of Africa. If that is true then I guess the only persons who should have an opinion here would be Richard Harland or Gyana. A sense of humor goes a long way you know.
E

I truly respect Richard Harland's opinion and I respect Ganyana's as well, though his opinon has unfortunately been tainted by personal injury and the unfortunate experiences he has had.

Double rifles are for hunting dangerous game. Hunt dangerous game and your opinion is based on experience. Base your opinion on experience and I will respect it in proportion to that experience.

JPK

I am also a BIG fan of light weight Big game rifles and do not want a rifle more than 10.5 lbs.
Speaking of charges and the joy of a big Double at hand.
This Cow was a tad upset with us!