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Pererdk, Myself, I have zero African hunting experience and enjoy reading about the experiences of others to increase my knowledge and to hopefully eliminate errors in my hunt should I ever make it there. I initiated this thread for the benefit of the DR users based upon the work of Mike70560 and his double 470 rifle. If you read the full thread you will identify some good discussion and some not so good discussion. Regardless of how each perceives the validity of Mike70560’ testing work, he has conducted a service for those with an interest in optimizing their rifle/cartridge combination to assure the best hunt possible. It is there for the taking or the leaving. Michael458 does test momometal bullets that have been proved acceptable in new DRs that are also unacceptable to older DRs. However he has tested three brands of monometal bullets that that by design are not harmful to DR barrels whether new or old; these three bullet brands are GS Custom, North Fork Technologies (all solid and all cup point, plus their new 50 caliber soft point expanding), and the S&H Super Precision. Feel free to jump over to the Big Bore Forum and read Michael458’s Terminal Bullet Performance thread…it is long but also very informative. Michael458 does provide side-by-side displays of recovered bullets from his testing materials and from hunted animals. You can make your own decision as to whether the testing methodology has any proven relationship to real world hunting… Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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shooting media to test bullet performance in media is just that. this is about the results of bullets shot into a defined media. no one is challenging anyone's manhood over not, or shooting of, elephants. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I've done my testing herein, and can find only one reason for the use of an RN, and that has nothing to do with terminal performance. It's feeding in your rifle. If that can be done without question with a FN, as Michael458 has proven and demonstrated so many times, then the FN is the better choice and this reason is negated. See, I gave you that one. Now I'll try to keep it short and sweet here. RN's do not punch holes, they push the bone aside; this is wedging at high speeds. Regardless, this does thow the bone effectivly while the bullet velocity is high enough, but it still requires more energy to do so then punching through it. We all know the bone shatters because of both, it's just a matter of how effective the bullet is at doing so. In this regard to glancing shots, the RN will ALWAYS have a lesser effect and greater chance of veer because it strike the bone at an angle, no matter what. The FN hits on it's edge and begins to cut or punch through the bone...in fact they have a tendency to actually turn tward the bone slight as it catches, and then it further shoulder stabalized and remains on it's path. If it deveates, it's slight enough to be unnoticeable and effectively moot. In the case the bullet's stability is actually superceaded, then it will tumble and veer, but this is long after the RN has already done so. This can be seen in the heaviest and densist bone, like the Ele femure and Rhino skull (ele skull is actually very soft, but thick). With hard bone like this the bullet must be stable before impact, as RN's have a tendancy not to, and must maintain that stability through the bone as forces are applied at an angle to the bullets travel. This is where shoulder stabalization and "punching" (for lack of a better word) becomes vitally important. RN's can make it in some cases, regarless of how hard they are, but it is less likely then a FN. The nose angle is just such a detriment, it's simply not worth it. Veering is a product of forces angular to direction of travel, that is it. Just visualize with me for a minute. If the nose is round, any force acting upon the bullet will be acting at an angle, right? Especially hard bone. No animal is perfectally uniform, and no bullet strikes perfectly square to the animal, and the bullet is never perfectally stable, so we have in every case angular force. Even if minor, you have minor veering. So the bullet has enough momentium to maintain a reasonable degree of acceptable deveation from it's intended flight path, if no great force is applied, but it is still MORE likely then a FN. FN's have a flat nose that forces tissue and material (actually, forces forces) to the center at all times, and this creates greater stability. Yes, this can be exceeded, and those forces can hit a such an angle as to miss the meplat and hit the side of the nose (one of the reasons meplat size is important), but this is still much past what the RN can endure. It's simple physics, no disputing it. "the hemishperical nose is closer to COG, COM and so the shape is less likely to tumble or veer compared to the more ogived shape." And the FN is closer yet! "Some of the smaller diameter steel jackets Woodleigh RN's have an even better shape, with an almost flat nose..." Yes, getting better! This discussion isn't about what bullets are hemisphearical, or how comman they are, or even if they are steel or not; it's not even about if they deform, it's about the inadiqacies of the RN. The shape is bad! Most of what you said is irrelivent. "NF or GSC because you may need all of the penetration your rifle can muster, and any bone need only to be broken and not penetrated, and the riveting or even mushrooming the copper FN will under go is the evidence of transfer of energy!" Not sure on this one. Yes, they penetrate further. Bone is broken and the bullets continue on, like I have shown in my link. But I do not understand how any mushrooming or riviting is evidence of energy transfer? And the FN's we all shoot do not rivit. What is the definition you are insinuating? "For first or subsequent shot on buff - if your rifle runs velocity of ~2125fps with the RN then the RN will do for all shots, but a RN first and FN second and subsequent is as good or better. If your rifle makes less than ~2100fps or so, then RN first and FN for second and subsequent. (At 2220fps, a 450gr .458" NF has too much penetration for buff for any shot near broadside, but its perfect for going away shots; at, say, 2050fps the .458" Woodleigh has too little for going away shots but is perfect for anything near broadside; at 2145fps a Woodleigh has sufficient penetration for going away shots but care nust be taken on broadside shots because the bullet will exit." How about you just shoot the GS Custom FN for all! It's the best of both worlds (penetration and terminal performance)! See, a smart bullet  "There is no best, there are only better choices amoungst the two for different purposes." Now here we agree, one is best for the leathal harvest of game, and the other is best for failure. Shoot an RN..."You feelin' lucky punk?"  -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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sorry capoward, but the jury is still very much out, on the above statment. i actually offered GSC the oppertunity to test their bullets, and i would pay for them... just as a regular costumer. it has been a year since my order, and i havent seen anything yet. i am going to contact north fork next week about buying some of their bullets for the test's, and they might be as good as everybody claims, but i have not seen anywhere with tests done on old british double rifles, with over the counter bullets. i will report back when results are in. so posting these results as being the new next best thing to sliced bread is not factual on this forum IMO. i use woodleighs in my guns as they dont hurt my 100-130 year old guns, i am looking forward to be seeing what these wonder bullets do to a henry rifling on a lancaster oval bore.
overpenetration in a herd of buff is not what you crack it up to be  read what the man says, you actually agree on more than you differ.and since most big game animals in africa have been shot dead with the round nose solid, then yes i not only feel lucky, i feel F***ing confident. get with the program, yes Flat points are good, but there are still some questions that needs answering, untill that happens i belive that owners of elderly doubel rifles should keep shooting woodleighs. just my two øre. best peter | |||
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Peter, Unless you have ran equal body of data indicating that these gentlemen are wrong, i storngly suggect you rein in your opinions, and don't state them as contradictary "fact" "The jury still out" is HORSE HOCKEY ... perhaps, in your mind, you wish to do more testing.. that's FANTASTIC .. your results will follow with all other results, a flatter nose, in proportion to body length and caliber, with an appropriate twist results in deeper, and straighter, penetration. Even Woodleigh is now making a bullet called a super penetrator, that is of this basic design. You are coming over as VERY arrogant on something that you, sourself, admit you haven't done testing on. Look Michael's results Garrett's results Andy's results Dave www.470mbogo.com 's results and EVERYONE THAT HAS TESTED them have the same results .. flat nosed bullet penetrate deeper and straighter than round nosed bullets, of the same construction. You have called michael down for personal insults, and have insulted the intelligence of everyone else that shoots these things. yes, exceptions occur and they can be dramatic... but LISTEN TO THE RESULTS, http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/2861098911/p/1 "Most animals killed in africa with a round nosed solid" is an utter misstatement. Most animals killed in africa, by man, are done with a pointy FMJ from a 7.62x39 or 308 FN .. Most sport hunters take SOFTs FIRST -- not solids .. to the point where a RN Solid would be the rarest of all hunting bullets used, and not normally used as the first shot. The advice of PHs on bolt guns .. solid on the bottom, the rest softs .. and for doubles, soft on the right, solids on teh left. Youre facts are wrong, sir, and I don't feel like being very nice today. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Peter, I agree that each should do their own testing to assure they have the best combination for their respective rifles...whether single or double barrel. Michael458 has purchased all of the bullets that he has tested excepting for a few bullets that have been supplied by AR forum participants and recently some .510 caliber S&H FN solids which were provided by S&H. GS Custom bullets have been hard to come by here in the USA though I understand that may change in the near future. I did see on their website that they have an importer for Denmark, here's the link to their webpage if you do not already have it: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/SCAN.html But from what I've seen of the tests of GS Custom, North Fork's and S&H...their solids are all bore riding with small width driving bands...and only the driving bands are engraved by the barrel grooves. The same holds true for the GSC and S&H hollow points and the North Fork cup point bullets...only the narrow width driving bands are engraved by the barrel grooves. So for these reasons I'll stand by my earlier statement. And please do feel free to these their bullets to verify my statements. Regards, Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I have inserted my responses into your quote, and put appropriate quotation marks around your quote to differentiate between what you posted and my response.
JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Hey DA, he was posting about the proposition that mono metals are safe to shoot in double rifles, especially older double rifles. He wasn't commenting on penetration or veering or tumling at all, only on the suitability of monos for double rifles. Moreover, every "test" you cite is a test in paper or some other non game media, all of which over state FN advantages while understating RN advantages. None of which produce results which accuratelt predict performance in game. They are irrelevant. Given the long century plus history of the RN solids of whatever construction, and the history of Rhodesian tsetse culling, all done with game rifles, it is highly probably that more DG has been killed with RN solids than any other bullet shape. Not every Ph is a fan of softs for buff, and few are fans of FN solids compared to the fans of the RN. There are plenty of reported instances of soft failure as well, and the incidence is not all that low, especially with higher volicity rifles or non-premium bullets. And trying to kill an elephant with a soft is just stupid. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Capoward, I agree that the construction of the NF's and the GSC's is suitable for double rifles, but there are plenty of doubters, like Peter, who will need more convinceing. I shoot NF's in my double rifles, and wouldn't hesitate to shoot GSC's if I could get them and needed them (but don't since I have a good supply of NF's.) Because of bore size variations, dome double rifles may need custom sizing for the NF's or GSC's and both firms offer this. But properly sized, I believe that the NF's and GSC's are easier on a double rifle than the Woodkeigh steel jacketed solids, and easier than the Woodleigh solfts as well. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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actually since you dont feel like being nice today, you should read my statment fully instead of just running off in all directions. now read this, and try to comprehend.
now if i seem arrogant, then you seem ignorant. i have in no places stated that these bullets wont work wonders out of a new continential double rifle or a bolt gun. try to read the statments, please... peter | |||
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JPK i dont doubt those bullets if made to measure in conventionel rifling, where i have strong doubts is with henry rifling, lancaster oval bore etc. that is what i wish to test as getting a new chopper lump barrel set in either of these configurations are very hard and expensive, so before i tell my costumers to go ahead i will risk two of my own rifles in the test. best peter | |||
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Michael, The waste of time is the time you spend on your so called "tests" which produce nice repeateble, controlable result which are entirely irrelevant. If you are offended by the FACT that your "tests" prove nothing but how a bullet will perform in paper or whatever artifical media you dream up, so be it. If you are offended by the FACT that your so called "tests" cannot repeat results achieved in real game, cannot predict bullet performance in real game, so be it. I see that a portion of your charade has evaporated, and that portion is your earlier strident and repeated insistence that you weren't hypothicating or inferring that results in your so called "tests" were indicative or predictive of in game performance. That charde is long gone, you are clearly hypothicating, inferring and predicting now, and all of those are just flat our wrong. Yes, real targets for tests are imperfectly consistent. That is because real targets are imperfectly consistent. It is as invaluable to the hunter to know what his bullet will do 1" this way or 1" that way, more so than than what his bullet will do in irrelevant but consistent media. And to make up for inconsistency, increase sample size. The result is a predicable outcome within a range. You want to hypothicize about in game performance, you want to infer performance in game, you want predict performance in game, go do tests in game. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Yes, best to test the "non-standard" rifling used in both double rifles and single shots, and bolt rifles too I believe. I don't think that has been done at all. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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that is why i am doing it, so i can get a new double rifle from both gcs and NF when GSR is evident everywhere on my damascus barrels No. seriusly i still see quite a few doubles every year with "odd" rifling and would hate to try to fix them other than a refinish as they are mostly works of art. best peter | |||
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are you speaking to me, trouser neck? properly designed ones are. Yes, touserneck, that's exactly the point. When ignoramousi pretending that shootind carcases gives repeatable results, actual testers snicker.. like your ascot, johnny Is that so? based off how many thousand of elephatns you have shot? no, wait, its about bullet testing, there, leadneck that's a frequent sentiment of posters on your replies .. worse than irrelevent, they are ancedotal. two centuries. . know its a long time, but do try to keep your facts in order really? you think? no one else does, but pete .. but keep on posting anyway, buddy yes, not EVERY PH, just everyone that ever answers the question again, with the verring off course yes -- neither of which has any relevence to DR shooting monos and bullet testing? yes .. say, what percentage of bullets do you think is used to kill elepants, in the last 10 year? 2x10-23 or so percent?
JPK, other than trotting out to the range with your lead-leg trousers around your neck, what actual penetration tests have YOU performed? No, son, we are not talking about spending inhereted money shooting elephants and then blasting their bodies as they lay dead. Whelen disproved that sort of "test" a centruy ago .. but honest to goodness actual TESTING? Oh, zero, right? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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nice of you to tell him how to spend HIS money, leadneck .. i guess that beats spending daddy's money ... at least you are now admitting that the testing produces repeatable results. It aint about shooting elephants, johny, it about testing bullets FACT? is that like "TRUTH"? wherever i see crap like that, its a sure sign of a closed mind.. or one rusted shut see, there it is again .. leadneck's trouser ascot must be on a little tight not can shooting animals, now, can it? in fact, there's too many variables in every shoot to even begin to play act as if you can replicate them. Its nice to know what your getting around to admitting that media based bullet tests are repeatable and predicitable .. that's a good start nor can shots at game, now, can it? I merely refer you to townsen's publish notebooks on bullet testing. Shooting game can NOT predict results of the next shot. you see that? wow, clarvoent, too? he never has .. you are the jeans-about-the-shoulders-wearing-dude that tries to tie them together you really hate it when someone muscles in on your specialty, don't you? yes, johnny, you are flat out wrong .. no, wait.. just misguided we have a winner .. and expensive and unethical to use as a testing media, now, aren't they? yes, they are .. that's why the EPA tests cars on a closed track.. to test how they do on the track.. sort of like media testing, aint it, with the closed track as teh media. There's this thing called BENCHMARKING .. one testing under idea conditions to understand what happens when you change one! So, now you think his work in invaluable? No, it won't .. this fallocy was proven out 100 years ago .. you get a generality .. which, to actual fact seekers, is unacceptable you are doing a fine job of that for everyone ditto he does, sir, and his results are proven out, now, aren't they?
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I did try, pete .. sorry, you aren't clear.. thanks for clearing that up. However, impact to the guns aside, it does nto change the penetration results, do it? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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So peter was unclear? No, Capoward understood, I id as well. He was clear as daylight if you'd have taken the time to read his posts. But, instead, as you often do, you lept to an erroneous judgment. "Often wrong, but never in doubt," ... your moto? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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no but posting it in the double rifle forum like it is gospel is IMO wrong, as there are more and more old rifles coming back into the field again, and a lot of newbies can read this and destroy a 120 year old rifle with workmanship that is pretty much impossible to replicate. nobody do damascus barrels anymore that is not because they are weaker than fluid steel but because the work alone for the barrels will cost about the same as a new best gun from purdey. but if you want real penetration then try a 12 bore round ball backed by 7 drams of black. I like new ideas and bullet development is all good, but untill it has been tested fully, i get a bit dishearted about the claims from the manufactors, because they really do not seem to know. testing is covering all the known facets you can. best peter | |||
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Peter,…I certainly understand your trepidation at ruining a set of Damascus steel barrels…so please do post your results once you’ve completed your testing. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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This thread started with testing I did, all with a double rifle. While it is not a 100 year old fine British double it is a a good rifle that I take a lot of pride in. Examining plenty of fired North Forks, Woodleighs, and some Hornady it seems that the North Fork would place far less stress on the barrel in my 470. I used it to test bullets at a range that I will shoot elephants. North Forks were the best by far in the tests. Just so you do not feel I am cheap trash for owning a K-Gun I also have a 105 year old Boswell for which I am ordering North Fork solids. The barrels were properly slugged and I have full confidence they will work fine. But what do I know? If you read Volume 15 Number 2 of African Hunter seems that Cal Pappas has no problem shooting Barnes Banded Solids through his John Wilkes 600 Nitro and I believe the BBS are far harder on a barrel than the North Forks. | |||
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What about round balls   Would be interesting to see results of brass balls of the same weight as a flat nose solid path comparison @ 2150 to 2400 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Peterdk, Gina said she is checking on this order, though no order has been found yet. Did you go through a dealer? The wait time is short, and if you ordered, then they will get them to you. Funny you should ask about the double rifles, see, GS is the ONLY company that states their bullets will not harm a DR, and guarentee it! In fact, they extend barrel life substantially. The GS bullets produce less engraving pressure, less barrel swelling and less throat erotion then ANY conventional bullet, especially steel jacketed ones! And they have been around since 93, with more DG experience then you can shake a stick at. Not to mention all the DG Michael458 has taken with his FN's. These numbers are temendoud, but some just haven't seen them yet. So go for it. JPK, I can't fix your stupid. You are just beyond help. I would hope one of those ele's you are shootin' at teaches you a leason, but I am trying to be a Christian. Still love you man, and God bless. Boomy, you are a stitch! Right on. -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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Hey, DA, Got your panties in a bunch I see. Here is an abreviated but adequate response to your ranting tantrum: First, what is immoral about elephant hunting and then using their carcasses for testing bullet performance? Gone bunny hugger, eh? If you shoot 25 RN .458" solids into elephants, alive and dead, shooting frontal brain shots, and they all penetrate in a straight line between 31" and 35", what do you think the 26th will do? Wwen the 26th penetrates in a straight line between 31" and 35" what do you think the 27th will do? ... Ancedotal? Hell no. Then consider the fellow you correspond with who is doing the same, and acheiving the same results. Or even the fellow whose reports you read who is doing the same thing and achieving the same results. All merely ancedotal? Hell no. How many times did you need to see the sun rise to the east to realize that the sun rises to the east? Yes, I have disproven the wet paper "tests", repeatedly, as have a thousand others. How? By shooting an elephant or buff and having a steel jacketed round nose penetrate in a striaght line to more than adequate depth. Again, and again, and again, and again, and again ... A track is a tarmac or concrete road, with restricted traffic. No matter what you do with wet paper, it isn't an elephant or cape buffalo. The percentage of steel jacketed or cupro-nickel jacketed solids used on elephant as opposed to other game would be quite high. Elephants were targeted for commercial reasons long, long before buff and long, long before sport hunting for elephant, buff or other game reached any significance. And through the relevant time period, only solids were used on elephants, with few exceptions. There are not two centuries worth of steel or cupro-nickel jacketed solid use on any game in any country on any continent. But there is a centuriy's and a bit more, as I wrote. Just four hunters primarily using 458wm steel jacketed hemispherical RN solids killed in excess of twenty thousand elephants in a few years' time. Four that I know of would be Richard Harland, Ron Thomson, Barrie Duckworth and Paul Grobler. There were many more like them, albeit few with so many elephants killed. And then there was the half century of commercial elephant hunting with steel and cupro-nickel jacketed RN solids, of both both English and German origin, and don't forget the commercial hunting for buff for some 25-35 years, primarily with steel or cupro-nickel solids... Sum these up and you will have more than the number killed with assualt weapon cartridges. Soft point failure is not limited to veering off course. And you know, or ought to know, that. The relevance of my comment is its response to you erroneous statement that PH's recomend softs. Your statement was not limited to buff, not limited at all. A clear majority of the PH's I know either do not prefer softs for buff at all, or prefer, for the first shot only, a premium soft, and in the absence of the premium soft only solids. Every PH that I know has experience with failed softs, none have any experience with failed solids, excepting failed Barnes RN solids. I won't take the time to find Michael458's repeated and strident denials about drawing inferences on in game performance from his irrelevant "tests", or hypothecizing about in game performance based on his irrelevant "tests", but they are there for you to read, something which gives you much trouble, if your reading of and ridiculous response to Peter's posts is any example. And now Michael458 drops the charade of not drwing false inference on in game performance, not hypothesizing on in game rpreformace based on his irrelevant "tests." Enough for the evening. But for what it is worth, and though it is none of your business, I have never inherited one dime from anyone, ever. Nor have I ever recieved any life insurance pay out, ever. Relevant to hunting, I was given one rifle, a 30-06 Model 700BDL left hand, in 1982. Note to all: Personal information previously posted has been deleted. If you copied it, I request that you also delete it. JPK, AKA Trouser neck, AKA Lead Neck. Free 500grains | |||
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I was serious!!! The old big bores used round balls!!! 21st century technology can be good for the old school roundies. Can you make some brass or copper balls for testing? Add an equator canalure and they will be good at using the 45-90 or 50-110 in a 1886 with the 2.75" OAL so safe to crimp at canalure. Tungsten with a 15 thou copper coating? .729", .510 and 458 would be kinda neat. They shoot round balls for the 2, 4 and 8 bore. BB's for Big boys!!! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Another Ad Hominem attack brought forth when a theory or argument can no longer be sustained for its errors. Nice, lots of wisdom. No telling me that I am wrong and shoulder stabilization exists in solid media? No recitation of results of failed RN's? You give in so easily. Go shoot a dozen or so elephants, using Woodleigh, Hornadays and NF's or GSC's. When you have substantial real experience you can come back and tell me you are right and I am supid. But you won't. Because if you ever did gain the experiance, you would find that I am not stupid and you are wrong. Geez, if these ridiculous so called "tests" accurately predicted bullet performance, the fields of Africa would be littered by thousands upon thousands of graves of all those who used steel or cupro-nickel jacketed RN solids for the last century and more. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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boom stick you are right, the old formula for complete penetration on a ele head, were a hardend round ball and at least a 5 dram load of black powder. since ele is still the same i think it should work to this day, and round balls should be one of the best straight line penetrators best peter | |||
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extremist458 ask her to search her emails palsn(at)yahoo.com i have been in writing with both her and gerard i even talked to their scandinavian importer, which were no good to me, so to be quite honest i belive that they are scared of a real test with real double rifles which might prove them wrong, it also might prove them right, but we will proberly never know. wait time has been almost a year and counting... to say that i am unimpressed would be putting it mildly  best peter | |||
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Mike i would never feel that you were cheap trash, your k-gun is actually a really good rifle, and allthough i have a few british doubles most of them are in different stages of repair, as that is the only way i can afford them .I am aware of Cal Pappas has done a good deal of work with Barnes etc. I wouldent and wont. but that is up to each person to deside for them self, everybody just needs to be shown both sides of the coin, before they call their pick. best peter P.S. where are the pictures of your boswell, i dont remember to have seen them  | |||
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Here is a couple of quick handy photos of the Boswell. Posting them is more fun the arguing about bullets this early, I can save that for later. One day soon I will photograph the engraving, Lion, leopard, deer, tiger, with plenty of scroll. It is a 450-400 3 1/4" with .410 bore. JJ at Champlins slugged it at .4105".    | |||
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Really? YOU, of all people, have the gall to call someone else on your normal behavoir? one would merely need to click "recent posts by jpk" and see how many posts BEGIN with typical unplesentries. RN Solids - JPK, the discussion was on how "most" african game had been killed with RN solids. Facts, sir, are not YOUR friend. Concials, johnny, are nearly 200 years old.. and SOLIDS, mercury hardened lead, were right behind that... RN solids, sonny, used on african .. that YOU choose to further/redefine to make yourself LOOK more right, is, well, something between your ears. Good news for you, I don't believe anything shoulder fired could penetrate that density. You saying you think hunting elephant is immoral, as *I* didn't say that. And since you bring that up, it must be something you have in mind. Nice of you to ignore the published reports on how testing in animals is so unpredictable that it makes no scientific sense to use animals as PRIMARY testing. What *I* said what that its unethical to use animals as bullet testing media, I said nothing about hunting, now, did I? If that escapes your mindset, then, well, one can't fix stupid. You can't take a herd of elephants, put them in a lab environment and shoot them just for bullet testing. That is SICK and disrepectful of a noble game animal. I sincerly hope you don't think shooting trapped animals just for bullet expermentation is an acceptable practice. I'll bet you this, though. Michael has shot more bullets into media THIS week than you've shot into all your "elephants" ... Bullet testing, sonny, is about bullet testint in media, On the EPA -- Makers use a closed track, and HERE's how the EPA does it, sonny .. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml the REASON that these mileages vary is they AINT real world .. Its obvious you don't "get it" in terms of research .. that's okay.. we all GET that you don't. we understand... have a great day .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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mike that is about the most useful caliber in the world, in a classic double rifle setup as yours, i would want nothing else to hunt the world. that is a beauty. best peter | |||
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Yep, Flat Points rule, round nose drool....  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I would be quite curious to see not only depth of penetration comparison but depth of straight line penetration. Question is who can make brass, bronze or copper round balls for the testing.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Peter, I just spoke with them and they said they did not process the order because it was supposed to go through the dealer. Not your fault, but it's because of the agreement he made with GS to import through him. It is much easier and cheaper to ship by going through one importer, and I am not up to par on what laws you have governing this, but they are now aware of it and will be taking care of it. Sorry about that, but no one knew you didn't have the bullets yet. You should have heard how supprized they were. On another note, they are not scared. Thousands of GS FN's and HV's have been shot out of doubles; more then we can count. This isn't day one for GSC. Their bullets have been tested in a variaty of DR's all across Africa, and for many years now. Testing is long been done, and they would be happy to ship you bullets, regardless of what the dealer has to say; no customer should have to wait that long. But you have to know no company would refuse an order unless there was a reason, or they would sell no bullets, so you can't blame them. Thanks. -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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Boomy, We should bring this back over to the TBP page, and will address it there. Yes, I can get you copper round balls, can even do tungsten, but it can take a while for those. -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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Hey, DA, Panties still in a bunch, eh? Here is your quote: "... and expensive and unethical to use as a testing media, now, aren't they?" So, what part of elephant hunting, or using live elephants hunted fair chase and then their carcasses is unethical? The answer is no part, your attempt to make a distinction fails, again. You assert that using live or dead elephants, or other DG, to test bullet performance in elephants or other DG leads to too many inconsistencies. But then explain the library full of works which rely entirely on the study of wounds, wound channels, trauma, etc, in live and dead animals, and in humans as well, with some targets shot exclusively for study and some shot haphazzardly and randomly, some by criminals and even by accident? For a pretty comprehensive bibliography, refer to Alf's references. Unlike you, I do not regularly engage in Ad Hominem attacks. I reserve them for a select few, which would incluse only Carmelo, Warrior and you, perhaps one or two others. And a search of recent post will not reveal any, with the exception of exchanges with the mother of rude and insulting posts so often based on a fundamental absence of reading comprehension, leaping to erroneous conclusions and dripping sarcasm. For a clue to that ass's identity, look into any mirror. Hey, DA, the discussion is about jacketed RN and mono or jacketed FN solids on DG out of DG rifles at their velocities, especially elephants, not about hardened round balls, conical lead bullets, hardened lead bullets used on impala. The reason that EPA results do not predict actual results achieved by drivers in the real world has no relationship with driving on a tarmac or concrete road closed to other traffic. It has every thing to do with the acceleration/deceleration regime and frequency. A track is nothing but a road with restricted access. But as I wrote, nothing you or anyone can do will ever make wet paper or any other ad hoc media an elephant. Michael and anyone else can shoot any number of bullets into wet paper and other add hoc media and not reach any single rellevant coonclusion, or repeat performance on game, or, critically, predict performance IN GAME. Hey, DA, it isn't about shooting into ad hoc media, it is about predicting bullet performance IN DANGEROUS GAME. I have left private personal information up on this thread long enough for you to have read it and to have realized that, yet again, you have lept blindly to more erroneous conclusions, albeit in this case irrelevant erroneous conclusions, and then made a rude but vain and futile attempt to insult with dripping sarcasm. To top it off, and as usual and predictable for you, you ignore your errors and play pretend as if they never occurred. "Often wrong, but never in doubt," really is your moto, eh? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| Moderator |
Petulant One These test results are in media, as stated. If you don’t care for them, that’s fantastic. We get that you don’t get it. No one is challenging your manhood, or lack thereof. Your continuous assault against persons that don’t think EXACTLY as you do is a matter of record, as well as your penchant for wearing worn blue jeans around your neck. We certainly enjoy hear of your denim ascot escapades. Do you have ANYTHING to add to media based testing of bullets, other than anecdotal detraction of persons attempting to improve knowledge on bullet performance in media? No, seriously, ANYTHING other than the simple statement of “they don’t always perform that way on game? I await your addition to this testing, rather than showing out for need of a little attention opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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JPK, I'm sorry for insulting you. Regardless of what you do, I shouldn't follow suit. I don't want to argue with you because you do not listen, read or understand what I have already pointed out and said. You quote yourself, which only goes so far, and have not yet provided one other documentation. You have one bad FN bullet story, one, and their are other FN's out there, so try something else. Where do you get that it can no longer be sustained for it errors...what errors? Because you say so? Well, I say otherwise, so we cancel eachother out. We obviously see so many others comments here, so FN's lead. To say that is silly and that is why I don't want to continue this with you, you will not get what I say. FN's stability is proven in solid media, for the most part, but I do not comment too much here because I am looking into it, be patient (I also have a job and family that require my time). But the point is that shoulder stabilization doesn't necessarily need to be proven to show penetration through solid media. Both bullets will deviate in extreme conditions, we all know this, it's just less likely with a FN. The ONLY reason why a FN will penetrate less through pine board is because it does more damage then a RN. Since both, as you say, will reach the spot they need to reach, then I will take the greater damage in this case. And as I said, the RN hits tissue first, so starts off on the wrong foot and is more likely to strike the bone already understabalized. The whole discussion is the likelyness of these events, not whether it can be proven not to exist. I have already shown failed RN's, but I'll find some more for you. What you have completely failed to see is how much experience you are going against here. I am willing to wager those here that are promoting the FN's, like Mike, Michael, JWP, jeffeosso, myself (not to mention all the DG and ele shot with GS custom bullets) and others, have VASTLY more DG experience then you, oodles more. And...you are still wrong. Though I will give you this. You have a reason to defend the RN, so I don't blame you, but you need to start realizing there are better bullets out there, and you need not be so offensive and bitter about it. Just try to understand what we say and where we come from; sit back and take it in for a while. Go over and read the entire TBP page, which is sure to grow much further. The fields of Africa are not littered with graves because people have more then one shot, and a back-up PH, and/or another back-up. The issue isn't whether RN's work or not, but rather if they will work AS reliably as an FN will. Just remember how many have died, and how much blood had to be spilled to get to where we are today...let's not make it all in vein and go back to where we started. Things change, tools get better, and people learn. -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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Here is some help you need with the definition of petulant: pet·u·lant /ˈpɛtʃələnt/ Show Spelled[pech-uh-luhnt] Show IPA –adjective moved to or showing sudden, impatient irritation, esp. over some trifling annoyance Bullseye, if you don't recognize it, look into that mirror, that would be you. See, for example, your post in response to Peter, where, in a display of remarkably inept reading comprehension, you lept to another erroneous conclusion, and with in impressive display of petulance, rudely assailed the fellow on a topic he wasn't dicussing. Your quote, "Your continuous assault against persons that don’t think EXACTLY as you do is a matter of record," that too would be you. Ever heard of transference? You've got a lot of it going on here. Your quote: "Do you have ANYTHING to add to media based testing of bullets, other than anecdotal detraction of persons attempting to improve knowledge on bullet performance in media?" And in particular, "... of persons attempting to improve knowledge on bullet performance in media?" Again you err, that is not what you or other wet paper and ad hoc media shooters and followers are doing. If that was what was going on in the so called "tests" and their related reporting and dicussion, a pivotal topic on this and other threads, then this thread, this post, this controversy would never have arisen. Those who have posted on this and other threads regarding the so called "tests," including you (see eg. your original rude post to Peter,) while originally asserting, falsely, that that was their intent, have sought to and continue to seek to extend the in media resuts beyond their bounds and hypothecise and infer that in media performance predicts in game performance. And there is the controversy. Because the results achieved in wet paper and other ad hoc media are rellevant only to that media, as you have written yourself within this thread, repeatable only in that media, and can predict performance in only that media. The so called "tests" are irrelevant to performance in game, cannot repeat performance in game, and, critically, cannot predict performance in game - but in game prediction is just the charade the wet paper and ad hoc media shooters are foisting. Here is some more help, the third definition of charade: cha·rade /ʃəˈreɪd; especially Brit. ʃəˈrɑd/ Show Spelled[shuh-reyd; especially Brit. shuh-rahd] Show IPA –noun 1.charades, (used with a singular verb) a game ... 2.a word or phrase acted out in this game. 3.a blatant pretense or deception, esp. something so full of pretense as to be a travesty. Your quote: "No, seriously, ANYTHING other than the simple statement of “they don’t always perform that way on game? I await your addition to this testing, rather than showing out for need of a little attention" A bit backward, no? The only material concern is bullet performance in game. Bullet performance is wet paper or other ad hoc media is utterly immaterial, of no significance at all. Certainly none to any hunter, whether that hunter realizes it or not. How 'bout, "They don't perform in wet paper or the ad hoc media used like they perform in game." Highlights the immateriality of the wet paper or ad hoc media shoooting, eh? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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