Sam,

I'm sure Michael appreciates your comments but I very seriously doubt that your close friendship was in jeopardy. I also have little doubt that you'll catch a lot of friendly ribbing about it though...

Sam is safe--he raises Blueberries---

and we all know how Michael feels about Blueberries

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Sam is safe--he raises Blueberries---

and we all know how Michael feels about Blueberries

Very true Sean...

What happend to 'shothiswads' comment?

Who cares? All the BS he spouts is ridiculous. And usually incorrect.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do not mind a disapperance of posts when individuals get personal and nasty.

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Moore:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Matt

Normally I would agree but in this case I
disagree. When someone sprouts as much BS
as he does, it adds nothing to the forum
or the knowledge of people who come here.

In fact, he gives them false information
which is even worse.

My Apologies to the Forum and Thread Members for my Childish Temper Tantrum, and no "Buts" thereafter

HOWEVER (LOL...However is not BUT), its frustrating when folks don't read, then insinuate and spout off flapping of gums without knowing exactly what is going on! Then having stated they have not read the thread, and did not like the title, but felt they had to flap the gums regardless.

Again, my apologies to all, and of course I don't have the words for how much I appreciate the kind words.

Maybe I will work on something else in a bit, and I have some ideas of something else we need to test out. HEH......
Michael

quote:

Thanks for giving my heavy oiled barrel idea a try, hopefully when you get your pressure testing gear up and running again you will give it another thought.

quote:

Zephyr,

We did another heavy oil test today with a newly turned OSR barrel which had a little thicker wall and I think oil was the reason for expanding the barrel. In this test we got .0002 increase in barrel size from two shots. Not a lot but I think this shows you should not have a thick coat of oil in a barrel before firing. No sign of OSR in this test either.

Sam

In all the fray the last two days, I do not want this to get lost. I believe this is something extremely important, and very worthwhile for further investigation.

The section of barrel now tested Saturday had a wall thickness of .04785, over twice as thick as Wednesdays barrel of .0225.

We oiled the barrel heavy with 40W Motor Oil. Fired one round, oiled again. This expansion was not a lot, .0002, but it was PERMANENT... Barrel did not shrink back into place. Same with the very thin barrel, that expanded Permanently by .0008 inches.

I am beginning to think that this may be something that needs to be investigated further, and could be of serious consequence.

How many times have we fired a few rounds, never check the bore, have oil in the bore? I have done this I am sure. Not so much today, don't use oil in a barrel at all. But what about many years ago when barrels were packed with cosmoline? Lots of hydraulics could be at work here? What about a heavily leaded barrel? How about just a plain old dirt wasp nest? The possibilities are endless what could be down a barrel and fired?

No ifs, ands or buts, permanent expansion was experienced with oil!

Michael

Michael:
If I owe you an apology for one of my prior posts, I offer it now. I never meant to state your work, nor the title of the post, was something I disagreed with or found fault with. I only stated, as an introduction, I passed it by as modern anything is not my cup of tea. Since you mentioned my statement of not reading the entire post it must have struck a nerve and for that I'm sorry. Your work is needed, valuable, and fills a void that has not been done. Please do continue. Also, in a prior post, I simplified my thoughts on OSR (for lack of a better name) as:
old barrels and old bullets no problem
new barrels and new bullets no problem
old barrels and new bullets possibly a problem.
I also put forth rifling depth as a possible variable.
And, that is from observation only with absolutely no science.
Anyway, please accept my apology and press on!
Cal

Cal

Of course, I do accept your apology. Thank you.

Perhaps at the time of your post I was also, already a bit sensitive to some things due to
other close or similar statements made by others.

Seems to me, a misunderstanding, simple as that. All in, all done with that.....



I do hope you went over to page 22, this thread, took a look at that barrel and some of the bullets we fired down that thing. I am sure we could use your thoughts on that.

As for OSR, I concur, as I did on a prior post, something is going on, no denials, I think the real question is What is, or was the actual cause of this phenomena. We shot some very ugly bullets down that paper thin barrel. Modern steel, yes, but still that barrel is thin as piss drying on a rock!

Lots of variables to consider. This thing with the oil, and I am not saying that is the cause of OSR, it might be a variable or possible variable among other things, however, it quite readily gave permanent expansion to a modern steel barrel. Which I think we really need to pay attention to that.

Lets say one cleans regular, because of climate keeps the barrel oiled up nicely, then does not clean the oil out before firing. Now in particular in a double. How would this permanent expansion effect where you boys glue them together? Sam and I fired only two rounds of this the other day, and got permanent expansion. I don't know personally if it would be an issue, but does make me glad I am not much for cleaning and don't put oil down the barrel.

This is one area I think we are going to investigate, get some strain gages on the barrel and measure that strain. I think it might be off the charts! But, I still have not hooked up the PTs to see if they are in fact repaired. I suspect very strongly the PTs are Kaputs! This leaves me only one option, an Oehler strain system, and they cost quite a bit. But I have other projects that require very close monitoring that I only got started on when the PTs went down, so if Oehler can give me some damned guarantees of performance, which I am sure they can, it costs enough, I expect it to work exactly as it should, then we will have one here to take the place of the PTs and continue. Strains are incredible story tellers. I have powder blends that I started, and can't wait to investigate further, along with many many other extremely interesting projects, but these absolutely require a strain gage to monitor progress, or problems.

Michael

If someone out there has a double with "barrel striping of unknown origin (BSUO)", and Michael gets his strain gauges back up and running...and...if the "vintage double world" really wants to understand...I suggest that they strike a deal with Michael to find out "for real" what is and what ain't happening...at least in regards to brass monometal (-liths are stones) bullets.

Michael,

Pm me with your adress if you decide to get the oehler, I'd like to kick in some funds.

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:
Michael,

Pm me with your adress if you decide to get the oehler, I'd like to kick in some funds.

Thats a mighty fine offer BC, and I appreciate it, but respectfully must decline, that is something I must do. Thank you.......

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Whatever suits you and your buddy's agenda.

I do have an "Agenda".... Its true.... Everyone here has an agenda. Discounting you of course.

Our Agenda is Enhanced Bullet Performance..... This is Our Agenda, Mine, Sam's, Lionhunter, 505G, Todd, CCMDoc, Ledvm, pagosawingnut, Mike Brooks, Mjines, jorge, CrossL, Boomy, NE450#2, 465HH, Capoward, malek, Paul Truccolo, McKay, Zephyr, DoubleDon, and many others that have contributed and been involved in this thread..... and the many 100s of folks that watch, lurk, but never post. This is all of our Agenda, Enhance Bullet Performance that can be taken to the field, for all of us to be More SUCCESSFUL in all our endeavors in the field. This is OUR AGENDA.........

!

ENHANCED BULLET PERFORMANCE

In a few hours I am picking up John, From North Fork, at the airport. John is spending the weekend with us here. A good friend, and supporter of Enhanced Bullet Performance. Do not discount North Fork as well in this endeavor. North Fork is very supportive of our Agenda.

And Malek, I have worked with John at North Fork to develop an entire line of new 425 gr North Forks for the 475 B&Ms..... Which would fall right in place with discussions on the 500 Nitro thread, and this one, with enhanced Double Rifle performance. A 425 NF FPS, CPS, and Premium Soft point as well!!!!!!!!!!! I have them here. Lots of them........

Why its very possible that John and I will speak a LOT on this subject this weekend, of what we might come up with in some other calibers as well???? Hmmmmmm? Especially after much blueberry Moonshine!!!!!!!!!!!



Michael

Hello Michael:

Good to hear you chirping back on this thread and keeping the fun going, your and Sam’s work are priceless, contributing a lot to the understanding and advancement of new generation of DG hunting bullets. Also for helping bringing them old nitro express cartridges/rifles to a new level of performance, that was never heard off or imagined before.

I was rereading through some of the posts here when I came across this note that you and John from North forks had developed a new line of new 425gr bullets for the 470. Thanks for mentioning it I will PM you for some more info.

Hope you and John enjoyed your week end visit, I know much good, interesting stuff can come out of such meeting, especially after having some of that moon shine of yours that we keep hearing about. Tell you the truth I wouldn’t mind having some of it myself.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek

Yes, as we discussed on the PM there are some excellent .474s at 425 grs North Forks!

John, myself and Sam pitched up Saturday, yep, we had a blast. However, out of blueberry shine now, all gone! But not to worry, I have 40000-50000 lbs on order from Sam this year!




OK, all this talk about PT and pressures the last week or so. I decided today was the day that I smash, shoot, and hammer to death both PT 1 and PT 2, as I knew they would not work. I had been putting this off for several months now, trying to keep my blood pressure regulated! Had been looking at Oehler the last day or so, and figured to give them a call this afternoon.

But first, let me check the PTs....... I had 3 gages installed on two rifles, so I took PT 1 and 2 to the range, hooked everything up. Tested PT 1, and low and behold it was giving proper readings!!!!!!! YIPPIE....... So I decided to try PT 2, same load. High by 12000-15000 PSI... No Surprise. But it was a great looking curve, and was working. Decided to do some math and some calibrating, and damn I actually got PT 2 calibrated and it is matching PT 1, along with prior tested verification loads!!!!

This was one gage on 458 B&M..... I still had a Barrel Strain gage on this rifle as well. Decided to load up some verified barrel strain loads from what we did in the past, hooked up, and PT 2 was once again, spot on the money, and no calibration needed for that...... SO FAR, SO GOOD...........

Have a 416 B&M with a strain gage, so decided to try it with some verified loads. Before I even started, I calibrated it to same exact numbers the 458 B&M came to, and it also matched verified loads, and tests with PT 1.

While I am not 100% convinced yet about PT 2, PT 1 is up and running, and can verify at least. Also, on other rifles I should be able to verify from past known loads, and calibrate PT 2 for them. New rifle or cartridge, I should be able to verify and compare with PT 1 for accuracy, so maybe we are back in the PT business? Looks good right now. So good I won't be calling Oehler this afternoon, or just yet!

I think later this summer I am going to hit Oehler up and get a Model 83 in. Set it up and continue on........

Just FYI is all....... So upcoming projects we look good right now..

Michael

Thanks, I needed some good news today, and that is great news!

Michael:

Can’t wait to try them bullets out. Glad to hear you blasted out the rest of the moon shine which in return blasted you. I bet with such an order (40000-50000lbs) you will end up with quite few gallons or barrels for that matter of that good stuff.


Now this is some exiting good news that you have here. Congratulations, both the PT 1 and PT 2 functioning well and both at the same time what a wonderful thing, this is fabulous. You know in my PM I was going to mention but I refrained because of them instruments were not working. A project that I am working on now and most likely will center on using the CEB bullets. Well now I could ask since them instruments are working properly again. I will PM you.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Michael,

Good to hear P1 is back up and running and that P2 can now be calibrated to match P1 readings. Perhaps once you get P2 fine tuned it'll be as reliable as P1 with its readings.

Jim

100% spot on...... On most everything I have load data and can calibrate PT 2 to match, if need be. Currently have only checked 3 different gages, chamber pressure gages needed calibrating, barrel strain gage did not, worked perfectly. I don't foresee much of this, but something starting from zero, with no data, and no verification loads might be a bit tricky, but think I can sort that out too.

First time that I have really got good strains with it, a little calibrating I can live with.

Of course I have two computers set up specifically for that unit, and thats ALL they do, nothing else. Looks like they got it right this time.

PT 1 is running, so I am protecting it closely, so if one did have to start from absolute zero, where there was no verification at all, the PT 1 could handle that. So yes, all is well on that front. Still going to get the Oehler M83 this summer, and get it running along with these two, it may need calibration as well, I don't know????

Michael

Good, get P2 fine tuned to match P1 - then lock P1 up in the safe to keep it damage free!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Good, get P2 fine tuned to match P1 - then lock P1 up in the safe to keep it damage free!

Already done!!!!

I received a great photo from CEB this morning... While this is not a double rifle bullet, and not even a big bore, all NonCons do the same thing, Big Or Small, they all do this... Big just does a hell of a lot more, as one would expect...... You will see more of this in the future coming from CEB and with some big bores too.......

This is a 223 55 gr BBW#13 NonCon HP at 100 yds, estimated impact velocity 2700-2800 fps....

Just FYI is all...... Posted on terminal thread upstairs, but wanted you guys to see as well, in case you don't go upstairs......

Should not this be in the terminals thread?

Hey spoogeaway: FOAD

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Hey spoogeaway: FOAD

Ignored post by shootaway posted 12 March 2013 00:29

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Should not this be in the terminals thread?

NO

Since you still cant read- this thread IS about bullets

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Good, get P2 fine tuned to match P1 - then lock P1 up in the safe to keep it damage free!

Already done!!!!

I received a great photo from CEB this morning... While this is not a double rifle bullet, and not even a big bore, all NonCons do the same thing, Big Or Small, they all do this... Big just does a hell of a lot more, as one would expect...... You will see more of this in the future coming from CEB and with some big bores too.......

This is a 223 55 gr BBW#13 NonCon HP at 100 yds, estimated impact velocity 2700-2800 fps....

Just FYI is all...... Posted on terminal thread upstairs, but wanted you guys to see as well, in case you don't go upstairs......

I'd like to make that a poster for my reloading room!

Better yet, can you make one of those with some .620 Non-Cons out of my 600NE? Now THAT would make quite a splash.

Michael, you have too much fun...keep it up my friend!

Michael,

Slip that photo over to the propeller-heads at the CERN Large Hadron Collider and tell them YOU found the Higgs Boson first and "here's the proof!"

When they or we get to the bigger bores, that 6 inch block will NOT hold the big bore blades, every one of them will exit.....

The top of my ceiling on the range, where terminals are tested, has 100s of little marks on it, blades coming out the top of the box and hitting the ceiling... Find some of them, but damned if I know where some go?

To collect big bore blades one is going to have to have double block all the way around......

HEH..........

Michael

In addition to the 500 Nitro work Sam and I did Tuesday, we also did our best to blow our 458 B&M OSR barrel all to hell. Sam had this thing down so thin, just in front of the chamber and on out, we were some concerned about holding our off hand in front of the receiver. So we set the thing up in a old POS Lead Sled I had laying around to shoot it. Tied it down in the front as well. This little rifle only weighed 5 lbs. Talk about a light 458 caliber rifle!!!!

We still used our same barrel strain load of 56/H-322, slings every weight bullet out at 1950 fps or so, does not matter if it was 300 or 500, all the same........ This clocks in at 45000 PSI on the heavier bullets, and less PSI with lighter bullets. We had a strain gage hooked up on the barrel and ran both PT 1 and PT 2. The numbers were different on both, however the results were the same regardless. PT 2 actually gave some really nice close numbers, so close, so good, we actually got to where we did not believe them! So we hooked up PT 1, and while the numbers were different, as stated, the end results were the same.

Our goal on this was to see just how much extra barrel strain we got from adding light oil, heavy oil and even did our best to lead the barrel up, and see if that put extra barrel strain on the barrel.

Our end result was, light oil, heavy oil, and even leaded, the barrel strains continued to GO DOWN.. Less barrel strain!!!!! Not More........ LESS..... ?????? Yep, we figured we had it especially with this heavy oil treatment. We even put STP in the barrel thick.... Less barrel strain!

In the end test we heated the barrel so hot that you could fry eggs on it! Shot our control load on this and barrel strain went from 17000 cold, to 10000 Hot.... Big difference! The barrel had also increased in diameter by a full .001!!!!!!! I reckon that would explain less barrel strain eh!!!!
LOL.....

Of course, WE GOT NO OSR even with all this ABUSE........... Some photos for you to look at....









Sam has some very ugly OVERSIZED Bullets to try, and we still have a hookup. Next week I may try some of those in this thing to see what we get.................. But, not going to lie, this is not at the front of the line... I have some 458s to get out of here, and the 500 Nitro work is at the front now....

Michael

Michael458,

Thanks for your continued research and work. I am following the oiled barrel efforts with particular interest as from a young age I was taught to leave a light coat of oil in the barrel to keep it from rusting. While in the Army I met several folks who grew up shooting and followed the same light/fine coat of oil practice. I don't think we ever mentioned running a dry patch down the bore before shooting. Trainers only stated it wasn't necessary with a chrome bore and their biggest concern was not oiling the cartridges themselves.

As to OSR I also appreciate SRose and your efforts to replicate the problem in the lab. Having pictures to illustrate along the way is an added blessing. I am a newer owner of a DR and have a decent history of owning large bore bolt guns. Let me rephrase that. I have .416 and .458 so that would probably translate to jr. big bore. Maybe one day I'll step up into the .500+ class.

I would like to appeal to your scientific curiosity when I pose the following. When we test in the lab we attempt to replicate the circumstances under which the original problem occurred. I think 450 NE No2 in his posts a few pages back highlighted a critical variable that was missed in the recent lab tests about bullets causing OSR. I think his, Cal's and Mr. Wright's et. al. observations of OSR have occurred in DR's yet efforts to replicate have been conducted in single barrel guns. As 450 NE No2 points out the DR's have two barrels joined together by the rib which changes how the barrels respond and how they respond to one another. Is this the variable that would permit the replication of OSR in the lab?

Again, thanks for your work and for the added effort of sharing your findings with us.

Eric

PS based on the tests with with the rebar bullets maybe you should market those as bore "cleaning bullets". You know, kinda like the stuff you add to the septic system once a month to keep it flowing. The steel bullets look like they cleaned some of the metal fouling out of the barrel. Shoot one of these bore cleaning wonders every 100 rounds and you'll never have to worry about cleaning your barrel again. The harsh abrasives and chemicals will be a thing of the past.

PPS I hope you know I'm kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:

I would like to appeal to your scientific curiosity when I pose the following. When we test in the lab we attempt to replicate the circumstances under which the original problem occurred. I think 450 NE No2 in his posts a few pages back highlighted a critical variable that was missed in the recent lab tests about bullets causing OSR. I think his, Cal's and Mr. Wright's et. al. observations of OSR have occurred in DR's yet efforts to replicate have been conducted in single barrel guns. As 450 NE No2 points out the DR's have two barrels joined together by the rib which changes how the barrels respond and how they respond to one another. Is this the variable that would permit the replication of OSR in the lab?

Eleeton, the problem with the theory of it only occurring in double guns because of the solder joint is that my Ruger M-77 in 338WM had those barrel stripes. Most definitely a single barreled bolt action rifle. And once again, it came from the factory that way. Wasn't caused by a monometal bullet being fired down the tube!

Cheers.

quote:

PS based on the tests with with the rebar bullets maybe you should market those as bore "cleaning bullets". You know, kinda like the stuff you add to the septic system once a month to keep it flowing. The steel bullets look like they cleaned some of the metal fouling out of the barrel. Shoot one of these bore cleaning wonders every 100 rounds and you'll never have to worry about cleaning your barrel again. The harsh abrasives and chemicals will be a thing of the past.

Thats me, I hate cleaning rifles/handguns/barrels, and such!!!!!!!!!!


HEH HEH......

Hey, want to know how a NonCon Works? This ain't a big bore, but the principal is the same, only difference is with a Big Bore....... We Get MORE........................


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfPpJNvSRUQ

Michael,

Do you know of a demo like this with a solid? I'd like to see the cavitation effect with the flat nose compared to the round nose design.

Really pretty amazing how much damage and disruption a bullet passing through the gelatin does, eh?

I'd like to see the solids and non cons in big bores done. I think they will need a bigger block of gel!

Todd

Last week they did several shots, the biggest 375... When the other videos are up and running I will get them for us as well.

They are making a plan to do some big bore NonCons next... I will see if I can get Nathan to slip a #13 Solid in the mix somewhere, he has a 458 B&M and a 450 #13 would be perfect for one of the solids.

I doubt they will shoot a round nose anything there is too much of a chance it will come out the side and destroy $1000s of dollars worth of camera equipment. RN does not track straight, as we all know.

Yes, while I can tell you about the devastation we get here in the test medium, and how devastating this is in animal tissue, I could never explain it as good as what one simple little video does.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Todd

Last week they did several shots, the biggest 375... When the other videos are up and running I will get them for us as well.

They are making a plan to do some big bore NonCons next... I will see if I can get Nathan to slip a #13 Solid in the mix somewhere, he has a 458 B&M and a 450 #13 would be perfect for one of the solids.

I doubt they will shoot a round nose anything there is too much of a chance it will come out the side and destroy $1000s of dollars worth of camera equipment. RN does not track straight, as we all know.

Yes, while I can tell you about the devastation we get here in the test medium, and how devastating this is in animal tissue, I could never explain it as good as what one simple little video does.

Michael

That's why it would be such a great demo to actually see and compare!

What does a block of that gelatin weigh that size? It sure jumped around!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
What does a block of that gelatin weigh that size? It sure jumped around!

I did not know myself exactly, or had forgot, so sent a quick email to Ken and he says.....

quote:

~ 17 lbs.


Ken

quote:

That's why it would be such a great demo to actually see and compare!

Talked to Dan and Ken, They are going to do some BBW#13 Solids.........