This thread needs to be moved to the political forum.....

and

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
This thread needs to be moved to the political forum.....

and

cheers
seafire

I just don't know, John. This seems to be as good an entertainment level as some of the other lite reading I do and far better than All My Children on TV. It's funny what you come to enjoy when you have been retired for some time. Aussie,HP, and VG, etc. keep up the good work. roger

OK, but why didn't the .223WssMag get a mention?
(I'm only going by its looks. )

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
Oh, and btw, I won the custody battle... my boy now lives with me...

Rugeruser, Sorry to read of your problems.
De Judge must have thought you were the one best suited to teach your Lad shooting.

as a side note:

I'd like to buy 20 rounds of once fired 204 brass...either Hornady or ??

Take note, someone wants to trade there .204 for a .220 Swift on the classified boards...

I wonder what their reasoning is????



There is an ad posted there, but I was just posting this for fun to get a rise out of VarmintGuy....

The 223 WSSM beats all of them

For people who do not reload ammo ,look at page 28 of the Hornady 2006 Catalog. Varmint Express ammo. Page 33 Custom Rifle ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
The 223 WSSM beats all of them

Yeah that might be true, if you can get the bolt to open after shooting factory ammo. If I loaded my Swift that hot, wellllll, you know what would happen to your 223WSSM.

Jerry

When I compare rifle to rifle the same goes for the bullet. Like 55gr bullet to a 55gr bullet. I mean fair is fair.

proven fact? lets make the comparison equall Stoke the 204 up and top it off with a 50 gr.C.T.bullet,now load up the 220 and top it of with a 50 gr.C.T.Thats rite can't find 50 gr.20 cals.OK load them both up and top them both with a 40 gr. All these comparisons are really quite meaningless unless both are equall....I am not as impressed with the 204 as a lot of people seem to be.I do own both of the cals.in this disscusion and have to say the 220 swift will out shoot the 204.The rifles that I have both are plain jane factory models. The 220 swift will shoot .250 groups @ 100 with a variety of 50 gr.bullets and I have yet to find a load for the 204 that will beat .750 @ 100.

White eagle:

You are right on! I am a Swift guy, but I think the 204 is a real good round as well, although you wouldn't figure that by my previous posts here. Some guys just like to stir up "shit", and that is all varmintguy wants to do. You know some other idiot posted over 4600fps with the 204, but when I asked him the particulars, he disappeared. Same old "mines better than yours" post. I just stay in it because I have nothing better to do at the time! LOL!!!

Jerry

Jerry Eden: I don't think White Eagle is "right on" at all!
In fact I have yet to see or even hear of anyone using 50 grain bullets in their 204 Ruger calibered Rifles!
The superior trajectory and wind bucking ability of the 204 is most evident in the 32 through 39 grain munitions!
If you want to compare the 204 using 50 grain bullets then you would need to do so with the Swift using 70 or 80 grain bullets.
Yeah a few folks use the 70+ grain bullets in their Swifts but I don't, won't and never have!
I have about 20 close firends with Swift Varminters and none of them use the real heavy bullets in their Swifts either!

Now, White Eagle - are you SURE your 220 Swift Rifle shoots .250" groups EVERY time out to the range? Or did it shoot a .250" group on a couple of occassions?
I have three different factory stock Varmint Rifles in 204 Ruger that have all shot 5 shot 100 yard groups (on several occassions!) in the low, mid and high 3's (.322" to .398")!
I will gladly pass along the load particulars of each if you are interested?

Same premise to you Jro45 - comparing 50 grain bullets to 50 grain bullets within the same caliber, but different cartridges within that caliber, IS, fair game. But comparing 50 grain bullets out of a 204 to 50 grain bullets in a 220 Swift is an apples to oranges comparison! Not a typically done comparison - nor should it be!

Seafire/B17G: Why in the world would you want this discussion moved to the political forum?
I am having to much fun right here trouncing the 204 naysayers right here where the thread was "born"!

1Greg: I have a bunch of once fired Hornady brass I could make you a super deal on. In fact I just bought another bag of 100 Winchester 204 brass and could front you those if you would prefer new unfired stuff?
E-mail me at VarmintGuy@aol.com or call me at 1-206-200-3791 for particulars and arrangements.

Long live the new and wonderful 204 Ruger!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
White eagle:

You are right on! I am a Swift guy, but I think the 204 is a real good round as well, although you wouldn't figure that by my previous posts here. Some guys just like to stir up "shit", and that is all varmintguy wants to do. You know some other idiot posted over 4600fps with the 204, but when I asked him the particulars, he disappeared. Same old "mines better than yours" post. I just stay in it because I have nothing better to do at the time! LOL!!!

Jerry

Yeah and we swift guys got to stick together. Not shitting on the 204 nor the 223 wssm. The 204 seems to be a nice in the middle round a step up over the moderate .22's and just a bit behind the super hot rod .22's. Then you have the .223 wssm which when compared from listed data for H414 with 40, 50 , and 55 grain bullets is somewhat slower than what I am getting with reloads in 2 different swifts.

Taking into account that some rifles will shoot the listed loads faster and some won't it does not seem to be any improvement over the swift even though max loads show an increase in powder used over the max loads listed for the swift using the same powder bullet weights.

I sure do understand the rifle companies have to sell guns or they are bankrupt and we all loose out. Still the wheel has not been re invented not in the least. I will stick to the old tired 220 gets the job done on varmints out to 400. If wind is a factor I go to 60's and keep nuking everything I am lucky enough to hit.

Varmintguy,

this would have to be one of the most entertaining threads I have EVER read on a forum....

Tell me, apart from the paper ballistics, have you (or anybody else for that matter) ever actually compared the two cartridges in the field? As in killing ability, etc., etc.

Please, don't quote 'knockdown power', 'down range energy', or anything else that is remotely associated with theory, or ballistic tables, or whatever.... or similar stats, I want to know how it actually performs on real live critters...

Can you (or anybody else without a personal barrow to push) do that?

Cheers...

Hang on Ruger, why spoil an arguement with facts or results?

Guys, Including Varmintguy:

Back when this all started, I got my back up just because of the crap that was being flung on this thread. As to the facts, here are a few that Varmintguy has either disregarded, or didn't fit his 204's best profile. I mentioned to him, "What about the 48 grain Norma Factory Ammo" that clocks 4120 with a 48 grain 224 bullet. His response, well you know factory ballistics, and nobody I know will shoot Norma. HE NEVER ASKED IF I HAD CHECKED THE VELS WITH A CRONOGRAPH, my Pact shows the Norma loads @4155 average for 20 rounds. I mentioned some of my buddies were getting right at 4200 fps with a 50 grain ballistic tip, in the Swift. He wrote that is too hot, and I wouldn't recommend it. Who the hell cares what you recommend, Varmintguy. Now to really blow your jock off, if you have one, that is. Go over to 24 Hour Campfire forums, go to the varmint rifle reloading section, and to the post that Dogcatcher223 has posted about the 204, he and others are thinking of sending them down the road, because of dissapointment. Now as to some Swifts accuracy, all I can say is "EVERY" time I shoot my Ruger, it throws three 55 Ballistic Tips into one hole. Don't misunderstand what I just posted. There are 6 or 8 very respected Arizona shooters, who will attest to that fact.

Jerry

How about 40gr bullets to 40gr bullets or 39 to 40 gr bullets. That would be a little closer. I have nothing against either caliber. But fair is fair. I don't know if the 204 can shoot a 40gr bullet. Can it?

Taking a look at the first page of this thread , Jerry , it seems you came on with your back already up......and only cold , hard ballistic fact posted in favor of the .204 , not crap at all IMO. 'course , cummins said up front his post was intended to stir things up a bit, and you sure swallowed
the bait , hook , line , and sinker(grin) . I also see you yourself posted that your favorite , one hole Swift load only chronos 3800 ?

As far as the Norma Swift load goes , yeah , but the only box of factory ammo I've shot , 32 gr V-max , chronos 4209 fps @15 ft. out of my Ruger V/T , so again pretty much a draw trajectory wise and in wind bucking . Face it , there just isn't enough difference in the two in those departments to spit on . The Swift does have about a 15 gr weight advantage in ballisticaly equivalent bullets , and the energy that goes with that . But I think the pro 204 people have never denied that fact.

I also read dogcatchers post over on 24 hr campfire , and it's pretty weak . The guy is ready to call the cartridge no good after trying one factory load in one factory rifle on paper during one range session and getting mediocre accuracy , with no mention of even shooting it in the field . Hardly a fair trial of any round. It seems he had his mind made up before even shooting the gun , and you gotta wonder why he even bought it in the first place ?

ya'll shoot whatever you want , but I'm not sending my excellent shooting .204 down the road , I'm looking to add another to the stable.......may even trade off a good shooting 223 on another .204 , it just fills my needs better.....

Mike A, sorry, I should have known better...

I guess I'm just looking for some real world experience of the 204 in the field...

Just curious, (I'm a hunter) but why is there so much emphasis and passion based on theoretical numbers? After all, if a bullet is travelling at say, 3000fps, does a 5% difference really make all that much difference?

I can tell you, I've clobbered a LOT of animals in my 45+ years of hunting, and as far as I know, none have known that my loads were 100fps below book value...

btw, I reload for 223, 243, 25-06 and 270, and hunt everything from rabbits to deer, so maybe I don't know anything...

rugeruser

You asked for side by side field comparisions between the Swift and and 204 . I have not seen anything you posted that states you have such experience either ? I've already said I have not been around a Swift alot , never owned one . I have shot a 6mm with 55 gr ballistic tips loaded too 4000 fps quite a bit , which in my opinion , does about the same thing as a Swift .

I can tell you it is just as easy to hit small stuff at long range and also in crosswinds with the 204 as a 6mm with the lighter bullets , maybe easier . From SHOOTING THE 204 IN THE FIELD , my impression is that it is even flatter at extended ranges than the ballistic numbers would indicate . And it gives you EXPLOSIVE action on vermin hit at over several hundred yards .

No one here has claimed the 204 is particularly suitable for 100 lb plus critters , nor is the Swift in my view . What I do claim is that the 204 is a very good vermin caliber for the stuff we have here in north amer. , including coyotes . At a recent predator contest here in the Dakotas , a number of coyotes were weighed , and the winning heavyweight tipped the scales at 38.5 lbs. Alot of the diehard fur hunters in this country swear by the .17 calibers and figure the 204 is too destructive !

I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion , but I've also hunted for forty years and loaded for all those calibers you mention , in fact , everything from 17 remington to 375 weatherby , plus four or five handgun calibers thrown in , but I guess my field experience is not good enough for you .

By the way , i've often wondered why you Aussies can't get control of your widlife over there ? When we arrived on the plains here , there were only about sixty million buffalo , along with untold millions of other critters like elk , sheep , wolves , and other stuff , and we shot them into oblivion in basically a couple of decades , with black powder equipment yet . While you boys over there are always seemingly overun with hopping 'roos , goats , and such and can't get the situation in hand ?

Rugeruser: I have been using (and comparing!) the 220 Swift for going on 40 years now! I own 8 or 9 Swift calibered Rifles. I shoot 5 of them often, in the fields and at the range.
20 months ago I purchased my first 204 Ruger Rifle. I now own 3 Rifles in this amazing and wonderful caliber! I have shot them "a lot" in the field, and at my ranges!
None of the blather and drivel that the 204 naysayers have espoused has come anywhere NEAR convincing me that my side by side comparisons of the 204 and the 220 Swift are not valid!
Let me interject another bit of "experience" here from a 20 caliber advocate, experienced shooter and Rifleman - Todd Kindler.
He is comparing the 20 Tactical with a 220 Swift in my example.
Remember the 20 Tactical is not quite up to 204 Ruger ballistically, by the way!

He writes on his web site: "It didn't take the 20 TAC very long to prove itself in the varmint shooting sports. It soon was destroying alfalfa eating woodchucks at 400 to 600 yards and stopping coyotes in their tracks with minimal pelt damage - something the most serious coyote hunter likes to see. Serious varmint shooters around the world started building 20 TAC's for their varmint hunting needs. It wasn't long until the word spread on the outstanding design and long range potential of this cartridge. Some of the shooters like Greg Tannel owner of Gre-Tan Rifles who just happens to have a solid reputation for building the most accurate competition and varmint rifles in the world built himself a 20 TAC and called it a "Death Ray On Varmints"!
"The 20 TAC is one of the many early twenty caliber cartridges that Todd has designed and it soon "blew the 20 caliber door wide open"! With 30 to 40 grain bullets, it is one of the most accurate and efficient 20 calibers available today. With the high B.C. 40 grain bullets, it has less bullet drop and wind drift than the 220 Swift! And does it with less than 25 grains of powder compared to the 220 Swift using 39 grains of powder"!
End of copied passage.

Rugeruser read between the lines of master blather-meister Jerry Eden and simply get yourself turned on to unbiased sources and open minded gun cranks who realize when they see AND "experience" a good thing!
I have no stock in any 204 type entity or venture! I just have enough real life shooting experience after nearly 50 years of doing it to "realize" a good thing when I see it!
And the 204 Ruger is a REAL GOOD THING no matter what the 204 naysayers may try to pass off from time to time around here!

Jerry Eden: If you give any creedence, what so ever, to ANYONE that says the 204 Ruger cartridge is "no good" or ANYTHING approaching that, then you are even stupider than you sound!
Get a grip man - the 204 Ruger is simply an amazing and superior cartridge in a number of ways!
Your Bareback Mountain Campfire companinions are spending to much time near the fumes from that campfire if what you say is even truthful!
You are good for the occassional laugh, Jerry, is about I all can say positive about you and your drivelling misconceptions.
Long live the wonderful and amazing 204 Ruger!
I am quite certain it will have a long and rewarding life as a small bore cartridge despite what any "fumed up" naysayers from campfire central may burp up about it!
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmintguy:

It's more stupid, stupid. There is no word "stupider", in the english language. When are you going to recognize that I have some "facts" that show the Swift as good or better than any other sub 24 varmint cartridge. As to the guys on 24 hour campfire, they are entitled to their opinions, and I posted that web site so"others" could view some different chatter. You are so full of SHIT, I can't believe it.

SDGUNSLINGER:

You are right, my favorite Swift load is @3800fps, what you didn't mention is, I use a 55 grain Ballistic tip, not a 50 grainer.

regards

Jerry

I will stick with my .223

Sdgunslinger, you wrote:

"I have not seen anything you posted that states you have such experience either."

Exactly... that's why I'm asking questions.

Varmintguy, you wrote:

"I have no stock in any 204 type entity or venture! I just have enough real life shooting experience after nearly 50 years of doing it to "realize" a good thing when I see it!"

Fair enough... I take your opinions on board, thanks for clarifying your stance.

223 VARMINT-VENTALATOR, you wrote:

"I will stick with my .223"

Me too...

Jerry Eden, why use a 220 Swift shooting 55 BT at 3800, when you can get a 6mmbr shooting the same load using 20 grains less powder?

You want a practical 224, get a 223 AI, 40 at 4000fps, 50 at 3750 fps, and 75 A-max at 3100 fps.

If you want to talk about a serious 224 cal, use a 224 Vais, or something similar (no neck turn f.ex) shoots 80 grain VLD at 3800 fps..

Nortman:
20 Grains of powder less is not my issue here, when I want to drive a 6mm bullet, I shoot my 6mm-06, with an 87 grain bullet @3700fps, if thats important to you. As to the 223 AI, which is a good cartridge, (practical?) why use it when I already have a Swift, and the Swift will produce higer velocities, and probably better groups to boot! As to the others, I see no, (and this is my opinion) need to exceed 55 grains in bullet weight for a 224, thats what they make 6's and 6.5's for.

Jerry

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Nortman:
Jerry Eden, why use a 220 Swift shooting 55 BT at 3800, when you can get a 6mmbr shooting the same load using 20 grains less powder?

You want a practical 224, get a 223 AI, 40 at 4000fps, 50 at 3750 fps, and 75 A-max at 3100 fps.

If you want to talk about a serious 224 cal, use a 224 Vais, or something similar (no neck turn f.ex) shoots 80 grain VLD at 3800 fps..

A 40 grain V-max has higer BC than the 224 55 grain BT.

A 55 grain BT in 6mm has higher bc than the 224 bc 55 grain bt.

Both get similar velocity, and retains that velocity better then the 220 Swift..its a classy caliber, but its not efficinet.

A 22BR should get 37-3900 fps in with a .224 50 grain bullet.

All these .204 Ruger, Tactical 20, 20 PPC, 20 BR, is more efficient then the 220 Swift.. all shooting flatter, less wind drift, and higher velocity then the 220 Swift.

Off course you could use your Swift, and burn 20 grains more powder Unefficiently(?), or you should really stepp up in bullet weight!

A 224 Vais, is another stepp ut, launching 80 grain vld with a bc of .500 at 3800fps! Barrel life +- 1000 rounds.. I hope more

I have recently traded my CZ 527 American in 204 Ruger. Rifle was used mostly for calling coyotes and occasional pdog and rabbit shooting.

I traded it for a Savage 20 BR with a SSS 26" varmint taper barrel. Rifle came with Burris Signature rings and Lapua 6mm BR brass sized down to .204.

40 of the rounds of brass had 31 grains of Benchmark and 32 grain vmaxes with cci primers. I also loaded 5 rounds each of 40 grain vmaxes with H4895, Varget and Benchmark. I have not recieved the dies I ordered for this wildcat so I seated the bullets with the only die I had that fit the cartridge well (Forster 243). Bullet run-out and concentricity was .001.

The 32 grain load shoots .5-.75. for 5 shot groups at 100 yards. The 40 grainers shot .697/Varget, .561 Benchmark and .447 for H4895. Pictures of the targets are over at GGVG on the 1st page that pulls up.

Velocity has not been measured yet as load work is just beginning. Velocity should exceed the 204 Ruger by 150-300 fps depending upon bullet.

Will post more information when I get a chance to work up some good working loads.

Mike.


http://www.varminthunters.com/forum/posts/38774.html

quote:

Originally posted by Nortman:
A 40 grain V-max has higer BC than the 224 55 grain BT.

A 55 grain BT in 6mm has higher bc than the 224 bc 55 grain bt.

Both get similar velocity, and retains that velocity better then the 220 Swift..its a classy caliber, but its not efficinet.

A 22BR should get 37-3900 fps in with a .224 50 grain bullet.

All these .204 Ruger, Tactical 20, 20 PPC, 20 BR, is more efficient then the 220 Swift.. all shooting flatter, less wind drift, and higher velocity then the 220 Swift.

Off course you could use your Swift, and burn 20 grains more powder Unefficiently(?), or you should really stepp up in bullet weight!

A 224 Vais, is another stepp ut, launching 80 grain vld with a bc of .500 at 3800fps! Barrel life +- 1000 rounds.. I hope more

I just checked the BC's on both hornady and nosler and they list as follows 40 grain vmax Bc .200 and 55 grain ballistic tip Bc.267 The 60 grain v max lists at .265. I dont know how precise the web site listings are but above is what they list for .224 cal bullets.

A .204 cal 40 grain V-max has a BC of .297


And noslers webpage is down or something.. I cant get in

DATELINE: America, Aug 15, 2027

Bill Lewinsky
CBS News
Reno, Nevada

For over 20 years now, the debate over the ballistic performance of the .204 Ruger as compared to the .220 Swift still rages. Today at the SHOT Show, an annual firearms trade show hosted here in Reno, the affair will finally be laid to rest.

The rules are simple. In gusty conditions under the hot desert sun, the proponents of each side will target each others tires on their wheelchairs at 300 yards. First side with flats on all wheels loses, and striking an opponents body will disqualify the shooter(s). Just as life in the old west, it is a simple path to resolution. But we here as CBS are left to wonder, will it truly resolve anything? Will there not be lingering question after all is said and done? And lastly, is there any chance of injecting the zeal of these opponents into the DNC?

The only thing I have to say is that I own the 22-250 and I shoot H.P. 55 gr bullets at 3600 or a little over and kill ground hogs out to 400 yds. If the 204 can do better good for it!!

I think this thread has been pretty much beat to death. It’s been interesting to follow though.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I think this thread has been pretty much beat to death. It’s been interesting to follow though.

Well first off I'll tell you that I have a 22-250 and a .220 Swift. I know what they will do. But I had to laugh at some of the .220 Swift egos on this thread. If the .204 won't beat your and my swift I'll say this don't look back because that little gun is right on your heels doing it with a lot less powder, less recoil and less throat erosion.

I heard it said that in short order these were going to be relics. Well I though that may be the case when they first came out. But wakeup and smell the roses. I follow bullet makers pretty closely and I’ll tell you Sierra and Nosler don’t make many bullets that don’t sell or are becoming obsolete. Neither of them make a .14 or .17 bullets and they are still hanging around. But the fact is that these two have joined the bandwagon tells me the .20 isn’t going away anytime soon.

Now if you’re a .220 Swift attention whore and think you’re on top of the heap start looking up some data on the BR .20 with some high BC bullets. You won’t be smiling. When you come back on here shooting your mouth off again we’ll know you’re not informed or you have an ego problem. Even though I’m not giving up my .220 Swift I’ll say this. I have a .20 something in my future.

Having said that long live the .220 Swift.

I've been watching this thread since December I couldn't resist any longer.

This thread has been great. I was hoping for a full 7 pages. Very colorful. I read everything that made me say GOOD POINT to WTF .Not to throw a twist into things but Weaver Rifles is doing 20-220Swift Improved. He is having custom bullets made from 58-70Grains.If these shoot like Mike's 40-45s should be a slammer. I loved my 22-250. I really love my 20-222Imp. I see a 220 Swift Imrpved with a fast twist barrel in my future to shoot heavys. I also see a 20 Vartarg and a 20BR on the short list. Even though 17s are my favorite. I know they are like a moped, fun to ride but you do not want your friends to see you on one, or was that fat chicks. I get confused

Blueprinted,
Funny you bring up Kevin Weaver, He's biulding me a 20-250A.I. on a Ruger#1 as we speek. Yes this thread is in formative (), But I thing it's more of a pissing match between some how have tried 20's and thous that have not or are not willing to try them. All and all, I think its a good debat.
All points are good keep'em comming.
338vt

I may not be able to come close to the 4000 fps mythical argument between a 20 or a 22 caliber "pea" that this entire thread centers around, but I prefer to shoot "P Dogs" with my 338 RUM and a 160gr Barnes at 3500 fps. Hell if it falls a little short at least the frag pattern gets em!

I thought this thread would end months ago!

Seems some just dont belive ballistics..

Interesting comment... but NONE of the animals I've shot, or seen shot, ever mentioned ballistics either...

They just died - rather quickly as it happens...

Maybe it's because I spend my time actually using my rifle rather than studying ballistic co-efficents and tables in my loungeroom.